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Fight in Dubai

Who wins?

Magneto should have the advantage, though I ignore the feats of the most recent incarnations of the others.

Hawksmoor should have this.
Magneto isnt manipulating anything IN the city on a level to compete with manipulating the city itself.

Kinda what Riv said. The reason Hawksmoor tops out in tiers is because there are eventually characters who can just vaporize the majority (or all) of city he's using, effectively crippling his power ceiling. So while I actually think there are plenty of feats that Magneto has that Jack couldn't replicate, he's honestly a low-level reality warper in cities and Mags doesn't have that level of destructive power while the entire city is fighting back against him.

It's what makes him an interesting vs. forum guy. Put him in a lazy beach town and street levelers destroy him. But throw him on Cybertron or Coruscant (which many have) and while we don't technically have in-comic analogs of him in cities of that size, it's a reasonable inference to put him well into Trans.

Hmm, my gut instinct was that Hawksmoor wouldn't have better control of the city materials than Mags, and that Geoforce was well suited to do major city damage.

Good fight.

He's got one of the most unique power sets i've ever run across, and like you said, he can work at so many power levels.
I'm surprised he's never gotten an ongoing, honestly.

Originally posted by Smurph
Hmm, my gut instinct was that Hawksmoor wouldn't have better control of the city materials than Mags, and that Geoforce was well suited to do major city damage.

Good fight.

It's definitely possible they could do enough collateral damage to pull Hawksmoor well below them. I'm not 100% sure how big Dubai actually is, tbh.

I do think his control trumps Mags, though, as crazy as that is to say. Jack's city control exists on a nigh-conceptual level as it's depicted by most writers.

I'm not sure about Wildstotm Jack, but DCnU Jack actually spoke to the spirit of the cities, thus giving him a potentially better control over that environment.

Oh its not potential, its definite.
Magneto isnt out city-ing Hawksmoor, thats a pipe dream.

Originally posted by Zack M
I'm not sure about Wildstotm Jack, but DCnU Jack actually spoke to the spirit of the cities, thus giving him a potentially better control over that environment.

Basically the same as WS, then. His connection was always more like a relationship than a "power manipulation."

Team. Magneto should be able to pummel the city enough with GF assist to weaken and overwhelm Jack.

Jack can function well in cities that have been trashed.

http://i.imgur.com/Vfvg1uI.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/wIqNblY.jpg


He was teleported into a city when a nuke was set off. Returns unscathed.

http://i.imgur.com/BRFz4tD.jpg

Still haven't seen what exactly Jack can do to effect Magneto. Has he faced a character at Mags level before? Yea Jack has a weird niche in powers but imo the mutant outclassed him

Originally posted by Digi
I do think his control trumps Mags, though, as crazy as that is to say. Jack's city control exists on a nigh-conceptual level as it's depicted by most writers. Originally posted by Zack M
I'm not sure about Wildstotm Jack, but DCnU Jack actually spoke to the spirit of the cities, thus giving him a potentially better control over that environment. Originally posted by riv6672
Oh its not potential, its definite.
Magneto isnt out city-ing Hawksmoor, thats a pipe dream. If we're talking Magneto at his strongest/best, then I think it comes down to what we mean by "better control".

Jack definitely has a greater scope of weird shit that he can do in cities, and maybe he can accomplish all of those things with greater ease than Magneto. But there's no way he has a more precise control of many of the parts of the city, including the metal in the environment, and I'm sure he'd lose a feat contest here.

Even if we put Jack's abilities in the category of god-like reality warping, that still can't be an absolute trump card. See: Magneto out-manipulating Proteus' own electrons.

http://s593.photobucket.com/user/Max_Eisenhardt/media/MagnetovsProteus7.jpg.html
http://s593.photobucket.com/user/Max_Eisenhardt/media/MagnetovsProteus8.jpg.html
http://s593.photobucket.com/user/Max_Eisenhardt/media/MagnetovsProteus9.jpg.html

Proteus is considerably more god-like. Talking to the spirits of cities has cool implications, but just like Riv can't see Magneto "out city-ing" Hawksmoor, I can't see Jack "out metal-ing" Erik.

He wouldnt need to out metal him, but thats my take on it.
Plus, he's no stranger to metal.
http://i.imgur.com/T77DCVT.jpg

Or gravity manip.
http://i.imgur.com/bYQMxQ3.jpg
And thanks for the scans, Smurph!

Bisbee, Arizona, comparable to Dubai in square mileage.
http://i.imgur.com/NoroPxs.jpg

Like i said, Magneto isnt manipulating anything IN the city on a level to compete with manipulating the city itself, its gravity, its make up, animating it; Hawksmoor's on different level. A higher level.

.

...

.....

......

Gettin' us to the 2nd page. Thumbnails, Riv, thumbnails.

I guess I fall somewhere in between Riv and Smurph on the control question. Magneto has some haxx control feats, not even including the one Smurph referenced. I didn't side with Jack lightly, and I do think it's reasonable to take either side. But even if we allow some kind of stalemate on metallic elements, Jack has a lot left over.

Jack has big feats, hence big scans...?

But thank you for seeing where i'm coming from.

Originally posted by riv6672
Bisbee, Arizona, comparable to Dubai in square mileage.

Like i said, Magneto isnt manipulating anything IN the city on a level to compete with manipulating the city itself, its gravity, its make up, animating it; Hawksmoor's on different level. A higher level.

Moreover, Bisbee has a population of 5,575, Dubai has a population of the order of 2.8 million.

Population is a direct correlation to his power:

http://i.imgur.com/cHZgXlk.jpg

^^^which is why i said comparable in square mileage, not population (as a dedicated scan poster yourself, i know you realize examples, between characters from different companies, often even the same company, are rarely if ever spot on 100% exact correlations) .

If you can find a scan of him animating a city with the ecact population as well as exact square mileage, of Dubai, or even Dubai itself, please share!

Otherwise, my point stands; looking at what he can do with/in a city, his manipulation of fundamental forces, what he can survive, his physical stats, i dont see Magneto operating on Jack's scale.

Originally posted by riv6672
^^^which is why i said comparable in square mileage, not population (as a dedicated scan poster yourself, i know you realize examples, between characters from different companies, often even the same company, are rarely if ever spot on 100% exact correlations) .

If you can find a scan of him animating a city with the ecact population as well as exact square mileage, of Dubai, or even Dubai itself, please share!

Otherwise, my point stands; looking at what he can do with/in a city, his manipulation of fundamental forces, what he can survive, his physical stats, i dont see Magneto operating on Jack's scale.

Agreed - was just saying that as his powers increase by population/population density, your scans, as powerful as they show Jack, means that here he would be even MORE powerful, due to the population density of Dubai.

still not sure how jack would even hurt mags if mags focused on his shields. i'd def say he could control metal in the city jack controls. i've never seen anyone usurp his control of metal. i mean he's even repelled mjolnir. not sure what good it would do mags to control the metal in parts of the city, and jack would have easy defenses, but i see him being able to. jack remains a person though, so what reason is there to think mags simply couldn't kill jack himself, or control the metal in his blood?

geo-force is the weakest of the group i think, unless he's done something recently. he'd go down first among them.

Originally posted by leonidas
still not sure how jack would even hurt mags if mags focused on his shields. i'd def say he could control metal in the city jack controls. i've never seen anyone usurp his control of metal. i mean he's even repelled mjolnir. not sure what good it would do mags to control the metal in parts of the city, and jack would have easy defenses, but i see him being able to. jack remains a person though, so what reason is there to think mags simply couldn't kill jack himself, or control the metal in his blood?

geo-force is the weakest of the group i think, unless he's done something recently. he'd go down first among them.

He'd likely have to remove Jack from the city, where his healing is nigh instantaneous from even massive damage.

The shields problem occurred to me as well, though. A stalemate isn't inconceivable.

Heh, okay.

Originally posted by leonidas
still not sure how jack would even hurt mags if mags focused on his shields. i'd def say he could control metal in the city jack controls. i've never seen anyone usurp his control of metal. i mean he's even repelled mjolnir. not sure what good it would do mags to control the metal in parts of the city, and jack would have easy defenses, but i see him being able to. jack remains a person though, so what reason is there to think mags simply couldn't kill jack himself, or control the metal in his blood?

geo-force is the weakest of the group i think, unless he's done something recently. he'd go down first among them.

nice take. I thought Geo Force would be more of a factor though

Forgot he was even there....

http://i.imgur.com/vUZTzZn.jpg

Originally posted by leonidas
still not sure how jack would even hurt mags if mags focused on his shields. i'd def say he could control metal in the city jack controls. i've never seen anyone usurp his control of metal. i mean he's even repelled mjolnir. not sure what good it would do mags to control the metal in parts of the city, and jack would have easy defenses, but i see him being able to. jack remains a person though, so what reason is there to think mags simply couldn't kill jack himself, or control the metal in his blood?

geo-force is the weakest of the group i think, unless he's done something recently. he'd go down first among them.

Or Hawksmoor just telling the city to turn the magnetic fields off.

Here, Tokyo boosts it 5000% for Jack (so the notion of fields being boosted/weakened isn't unheard of):

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/0/308/524738-shota_hawksmoor_006_010.jpg

And here he is playing with the gravitational fields.
http://i.imgur.com/MxAT3eY.jpg

Nice.
Knew about the gravity, but the other's new to me.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Or Hawksmoor just telling the city to turn the magnetic fields off.

Here, Tokyo boosts it 5000% for Jack (so the notion of fields being boosted/weakened isn't unheard of):

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/0/308/524738-shota_hawksmoor_006_010.jpg

And here he is playing with the gravitational fields.
http://i.imgur.com/MxAT3eY.jpg

meh, i dunno. even if he could shut off the fields in the city (which is a bit of a stretch from the scan), mags draws power from the EARTH's magnetic field, as opposed to something localized like a city or the fields it generates, i mean he himself can generate massive emp's that wipe out em radiation. all that said, i don't really see jack being able to shut off mag's power--unless jack is able to somehow separate, or annex his city from the earth-proper in some way. afaik he's never done anything like that.

^^^not a bad idea!

Originally posted by leonidas
meh, i dunno. even if he could shut off the fields in the city (which is a bit of a stretch from the scan), mags draws power from the EARTH's magnetic field, as opposed to something localized like a city or the fields it generates, i mean he himself can generate massive emp's that wipe out em radiation. all that said, i don't really see jack being able to shut off mag's power--unless jack is able to somehow separate, or annex his city from the earth-proper in some way. afaik he's never done anything like that.

Except I showed him messing with the gravitational fields - which are ALSO due to the Earth etc.

that's totally different. he's not actively keeping someone else from controlling gravity or attempting to usurp control from someone. you think he could keep graviton from affecting gravity in a city? i'd say not a chance, but who knows i guess. that em scan was even further removed from relevance though. he had the city use an external source to amp the em field that still existed withIN the city. there's nothing in the city to completely eliminate the em field. and even if, for whatever reason, it could, i don't see why that would hinder magneto at all. he doesn't draw from the city's em field, but rather the earth's--and even beyond. like i said, jack would have to be able to completely cut the city off from...the earth itself, essentially. i dunno. maybe he could, but i've never seen him do anything remotely close to that. for example, how could jack prevent magneto from drawing iron from the mantle, perhaps even in the form of a volcano or at least a lava flow that would severely damage the city? we've seen his power operate on a global scale when he manipulated the earth's entire field. even weakened his shields have withstood nukes. i mean, in his battle with ironman he was even able to draw power from other planets including the sun. not sure how jack prevents that from happening....magneto just operates at a depth of power beyond what jack has shown imo.

no one to my knowledge has ever over-ridden magneto's control of the em force, not even proteus. i don't see jack being able to do it either. if he can't i don't see how jack would win this. /shrug

oh, and if we add in geo-force, i really think jack would be eff'd but i don't see geo-force having much success against mags either.

Gravity's going to trump Magneto here IMHO; Hawksmoor just has to much control of the overall environment.

gravity is going to trump magneto? i'm not even sure what that means. where has jack shown sufficient control of gravity to...do anything to magneto? the same mag's whose shields have withstood blasts from phoenix, among others.... how exactly will gravity let jack win, exactly?

Originally posted by leonidas
gravity is going to trump magneto? i'm not even sure what that means. where has jack shown sufficient control of gravity to...do anything to magneto? the same mag's whose shields have withstood blasts from phoenix, among others.... how exactly will gravity let jack win, exactly?

I meant, that the gravitational field within Dubai can be messed with - whilst not Jack, it is Dubai's to affect.

Same with the EM field. As seen with Tokyo.

If the city suddenly cuts the EM field off - even if Mags draws power from Jupiter or wherever - it won't be getting into the city.

Because for all intents and purposes, the concept of 'magnetism', just like the concept of 'gravity', is fast and loose when Jack asks the city. Boost it by 5000%? Sure, why not. REDUCE it by 5000%? Cool.

So it's not Jack's control of the city's EM field that Mags is fighting against. It's the city controlling its own EM field. It can remove it, just like it can remove gravity.

Magneto wins this one imo

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I meant, that the gravitational field within Dubai can be messed with - whilst not Jack, it is Dubai's to affect.

Same with the EM field. As seen with Tokyo.

If the city suddenly cuts the EM field off - even if Mags draws power from Jupiter or wherever - it won't be getting into the city.

Because for all intents and purposes, the concept of 'magnetism', just like the concept of 'gravity', is fast and loose when Jack asks the city. Boost it by 5000%? Sure, why not. REDUCE it by 5000%? Cool.

So it's not Jack's control of the city's EM field that Mags is fighting against. It's the city controlling its own EM field. It can remove it, just like it can remove gravity.

that's the thing, i don't know that it could, or even if it could that it would matter. mags' reach far exceeds the city limits and he has already shown planetary levels of control. could a city prevent him from accessing his power? like i said, i guess it isn't impossible, but it seems unlikely to me. more to the point--if the city could adjust its own em field so easily, why did it need to employ amps to do it? it should have simply been able to amp it without external sources since, as you say, it is 'its' em field after all....

Originally posted by leonidas
gravity is going to trump magneto? i'm not even sure what that means.
As usual, DS puts it better than i:
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I meant, that the gravitational field within Dubai can be messed with - whilst not Jack, it is Dubai's to affect.

Same with the EM field. As seen with Tokyo.

If the city suddenly cuts the EM field off - even if Mags draws power from Jupiter or wherever - it won't be getting into the city.

Because for all intents and purposes, the concept of 'magnetism', just like the concept of 'gravity', is fast and loose when Jack asks the city. Boost it by 5000%? Sure, why not. REDUCE it by 5000%? Cool.

So it's not Jack's control of the city's EM field that Mags is fighting against. It's the city controlling its own EM field. It can remove it, just like it can remove gravity.

but...that doesn't explain your comment referencing gravity being able to trump mags's powers...

i guess if you believe jack can simply turn off magneto's powers, then there really isn't much of a discussion to be had. i assume geo-force's powers would be equally useless then? what about someone like animal man? jack should be able to have the city shut off access to the red since the red is also part of the city? i'd think that would translate into his being able to prevent a telepath from affecting him as well? graviton would have his powers negated? storm too certainly? he should definitely be able to prevent any doors from being opened in a city. has he at least shown that type of power? what if someone tried opening a wormhole, or a black hole? the city would stop it from happening?

and all that because the city used amplifiers to amp an em field, and because he showed a limited ability to have a city warp its gravity? without a lot further support (if it's out there i'd love to see it) it's a pretty slippery slope to make the type of assumption that is being made here. without a lot more proof i'm afraid we'll agree to disagree on this one.

but...that doesn't explain your comment referencing gravity being able to trump mags's powers...


Thats fine, i saw you didnt agree with DS' statement anyway, but its what i'd meant.

Good fight

I see Jack winning as well