#17 vs ROF Frieza

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Dark-Kenshin
Everyone is waiting for Goku and Vegeta to show up and save the day. Dende, fearing the worst, contacts #17 and ask him to take care of Frieza. #17 reluctantly agrees.

Who takes this battle?

vansonbee
17 would crush Final Form Frieza and probably tie or outlast Frieza stamina with his personal barrier for the win.

Estacado
Imo 17 should be leagues above Frieza just think about it Goku first turned blue against him by now he should so much stronger then his golden form that he wouldnt be a challange at all.

vansonbee
How much training did Goku had between than and now? Would all that work equivalent to a small % increase or huge one for his blue form?

Estacado
Well he did battle Hit, Black and plenty more seeing how fast characters grow in power in dbs its safe to assume that he is much stronger by now imo.

AuraAngel
We live in a world where Android #17 is stronger than Freeza. What madness!

Dark-Kenshin
Originally posted by AuraAngel
We live in a world where Android #17 is stronger than Freeza. What madness! In three weeks, I predict we will be having the same discussion about Tien and Master Roshi. People like Dabura and Buuhan will be joke matches for them. laughing out loud

Kento
I'm still waiting to see what gets them to decide on Tien. Since he was the only one of the ten not mentioned. And Yamcha is the one who is always in their face and around. And if you want Roshi, Yamcha is at least stronger than Roshi if at least not anyone else.

But yea 17 would definitely beat Golden Form Freeza by this showing even if Golden Form Freeza didn't have a stamina issue. He actually pushed Goku to go Blue and was still holding back to not hurt the island. And it's been a year since RoF, two for Vegeta, and they've fought stronger foes than Golden Freeza.

carver9
I would love for Tien to be stronger than anyone on the show. The guy trains as much as Goku, probably more. He was heart broken when he realized he was nothing to Cell. I think that probably pumped him up to train and be one of the best. This is my wish.

Kento
Originally posted by carver9
I would love for Tien to be stronger than anyone on the show. The guy trains as much as Goku, probably more. He was heart broken when he realized he was nothing to Cell. I think that probably pumped him up to train and be one of the best. This is my wish. Something we can agree on! It's an Easter miracle. lol

But I mean he does have the potential to be one of the most powerful with blasts. Stopping a blast from Buutenks, making Cell unable to move when he just walked through blasts of stronger people. And he is ALWAYS off training. Meanwhile someone who trains two seconds jump leagues while Tien doesn't.

carver9
Originally posted by Kento
Something we can agree on! It's an Easter miracle. lol

But I mean he does have the potential to be one of the most powerful with blasts. Stopping a blast from Buutenks, making Cell unable to move when he just walked through blasts of stronger people. And he is ALWAYS off training. Meanwhile someone who trains two seconds jump leagues while Tien doesn't.

thumb up

In DragonBall, Tien potential was unlimited. He was able to mimic any attack and overcome any ability though sheer power. That's the Tien I want. I don't know why they watered him down.

Kento
Originally posted by carver9
thumb up

In DragonBall, Tien potential was unlimited. He was able to mimic any attack and overcome any ability though sheer power. That's the Tien I want. I don't know why they watered him down. because he isn't a saiyan. The last good thing he got to do, that wasn't just hold back someone until he nearly died, was filler. And that was beating Burter and Jeice by himself.

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by carver9
thumb up

In DragonBall, Tien potential was unlimited. He was able to mimic any attack and overcome any ability though sheer power. That's the Tien I want. I don't know why they watered him down.

Because Toriyama had this weird idea that Krillin is supposed to be more powerful laughing out loud

Estacado
Just lookit all the awesomness Krillin did in Z....o wait..

Ridley_Prime
Eh? He had his cool moments in Z (2nd form Frieza and stuff). Don't hate.

Estacado
Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
Eh? He had his cool moments in Z (2nd form Frieza and stuff). Don't hate.
5jGKkTcgbRE

Henry_Pym
... I really wish the DBS fans actually paid attention to the show

17 pushed Goku into Blue, no real indication he could actually hang with him and it is arguable that Goku could have just gone SSJ3 in the fight instead but it creates alot of damage just from the energy it gives off.

Goku in the ROF arc states that Golden Freiza is stronger than him in Blue but lacks the stamina and mastery in that form.

Frieza is > 17. People are overreacting and wanking this arc horribly.

Dark-Kenshin
Originally posted by Henry_Pym
17 pushed Goku into Blue, no real indication he could actually hang with him

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37pWxPBAaY8

1:53 - 3:30 is no indication of hanging . . . how? confused


And that's arguable . . . how? confused

As far as I can tell, the difference between SSJ3 and SSB is that the latter has significantly more power and ki control.

Back in the ROF arc prior to Goku training with Vegeta for 3 years in the ROSAT, getting stronger over the course of the Goku Black arc and getting to the point where Blue Kaioken does not injure him anymore. Whatever was said back in the ROF arc does not apply to current Goku.

People are substituting fanon for what actually gets said and explained on screen. Your post is a good example.

Here is what we do know. 17 can hang with current SSB Goku simply based on them going at it and both of them suggesting that they're not going all out. We also know that 17 has unlimited ki/stamina. Therefore, in a fight with Golden Frieza, even if he were stronger, 17's powers/abilities are a hard counter to the homicidal tyrant.

Henry_Pym
Question before I seriously argue with you, do you think Goku was trying to defeat 17 in that "fight?"

cdtm
He already admitted they weren't going all out.

That doesn't change the fact Goku was in blue mode. Blue >>>>> any SSJ. A holding back blue is > any full power SSJ. Otherwise, why not have him fight in SSJ 1, 2, or 3?

carver9
The most non logical argument I have seen on this site. 17 dies.

cdtm
Originally posted by carver9
The most non logical argument I have seen on this site. 17 dies.

This argument is certainly not logical, but not your worst. wink

Inedian
Originally posted by cdtm
That doesn't change the fact Goku was in blue mode. Blue >>>>> any SSJ. A holding back blue is > any full power SSJ. Otherwise, why not have him fight in SSJ 1, 2, or 3?

Nope. That depends on Goku. SSJ2 or SSJ3 are powered up versions of super saiyan. SSB is not powered up version of SSJ, but completely new form. And since Akira said blue means total control, Goku can put any power level in his blue form. In his blue form he has access to his full ki and total control over it.

And Frieza wins easily.

Dark-Kenshin
Originally posted by Henry_Pym
Question before I seriously argue with you, do you think Goku was trying to defeat 17 in that "fight?" No. And I'm not concerned with whether you intend to "seriously argue" with me or not. But if you do, go back and address what I've actually said and also answer the two questions I posed to you.

Dark-Kenshin
Originally posted by Inedian
Nope. That depends on Goku. SSJ2 or SSJ3 are powered up versions of super saiyan. SSB is not powered up version of SSJ, but completely new form.

And since Akira said blue means total control, Goku can put any power level in his blue form. In his blue form he has access to his full ki and total control over it. The problem with your explanation is that there's no reason to go SSB in the first place if Goku is only going to use levels of ki output which he has access to in states that cost less stamina or no stamina at all. This is the reason Goku and Vegeta did not use SSB throughout most of the U6 tournament arc. They saved it for Hit.

cdtm
Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
The problem with your explanation is that there's no reason to go SSB in the first place if Goku is only going to use levels of ki output which he has access to in states that cost less stamina or no stamina at all. This is the reason Goku and Vegeta did not use SSB throughout most of the U6 tournament arc. They saved it for Hit.

In other words, Toriyama had Goku go blue for a reason. Writer's don't do things without a reason, unless they're bad writers.

Henry_Pym
Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
No. And I'm not concerned with whether you intend to "seriously argue" with me or not. But if you do, go back and address what I've actually said and also answer the two questions I posed to you. ...you answered your own question.

If Goku wasn't fighting seriously, that means you can't infer he can hang with him while serious...

Now your second question seems pretty self explanatory, as I literally explained it in my post but SSJ3 causes alot of collateral damage and Goku was fighting a ranger in a nature preserve so that is my reasoning to why Goku didn't try it. It's hilarious to argue Goku was using more power against 17 than he used fighting Fat Buu in the Buu arc.

cdtm
Them fanboy rationalizations laughing out loud

Dark-Kenshin
Originally posted by Henry_Pym
...you answered your own question.

If Goku wasn't fighting seriously, that means you can't infer he can hang with him while serious...The argument was that 17 could hang with SSB Goku, not that he could hang with him while serious. A serious Goku would be one using SSB/Kaoiken x 10 and maybe some warp kamehamehas if we're taking CIS into account.

As far as SSB Goku alone is concerned, we clearly saw him and 17 going at it and exerting themselves in pretty even fashion. Thus, it stands to reason that 17 can hang with SSB Goku. When you say SSJ3 "causes alot of collateral damage", what are you talking about exactly? If you're suggesting that it's a specific characteristic of the form, I've never seen anything to suggest that. Moreover, your answer is contradicted by their very fight. Goku specifically takes the fight to the skies so that they can fight without hurting any animals. By your reasoning, SSJ3 would've been the go-to option the moment the fight reached that point.


How is that hilarious if 17 is stronger than Fat Buu from the Buu arc (not to mention the current arc)? Don't get me wrong. I do find the writers' frequent shitting on power levels to be a real hoot ( laughing out loud ), but you seem to actually be suggesting that 17 hasn't gotten tremendously stronger since the Cell arc. That's just not the case. The dialogue throughout episodes 86-87 literally confirms this.

carver9
Lol...people still taking Goku fight serious against people he was obviously holding back against. Hilarious.

Kento
Originally posted by carver9
Lol...people still taking Goku fight serious against people he was obviously holding back against. Hilarious. A fight they were both holding back in..

And unlike with the Roshi and Krillin who were full powered and still at minimum 400x weaker than Goku despite all the joking, 17 made Goku transform into ssb to keep up with him, and Goku still didn't get to see the full extent of 17's power.

And we never got to see Buu go all out, because apparently it's useless anyway to care what he can do.

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