Grail vs the Cabal

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1). Forum fight - Grail vs the Cabal (Classic Doom, King Hyperion, Classic Loki, Dracula, Apocalypse, Norman Osborn and Attuma)
2). Opening + 4 posts (each post, even if one after another, counts as a separate post)
3). Galan, Scot, Darksaint, Delta, Leo (maybe Digi/Id, if one pulls out and they have time)
4). Loser reps every post abhi/carver make for a month, like he really means it, not ironically.
5). Location: an abandoned industrial complex.

- Initial post will be PMd to Darksaint until this Friday
- All the other posts will be posted until next friday

A darkness falls across the land. Grail has come to Marvel.

The Cabal stand ready.

Hello everybody.

As you read this debate, I'd like to state what is one of the most important factors in this thread - it's a forum fight.

We're not in control of the characters as we would be in a battlezone and CIS (Character Inhibited Power) is still in effect.

It will be relevant as you read on, since I'm up against half a dozen opponents, each with a myriad of abilities, and celey will try to cherry pick what thinks suits him best, without regard to which ones they actually use the large, large majority of fights.

As you judge what will and will not be used, I'd like to point out that it's not a case of 'will Superman/Flash etc. use his speed?'. Those characters are very limited in terms of how many abilities they have, so Superman using something as basic as dodging/moving fast is not the same as character X in this thread using ability #27.

To quote the forum rules:


With that said..

What if Darkseid and Wonder Woman did a fusion dance?

I present Grail:

Grail is the daughter of the best Amazon assassin and Darkseid.

She's been trained her whole life by that same assassin:

As a consequence of her parents, she's the best of BOTH worlds.

Let's start with what was previously the best of the Amazons - which is to say, Wonder Woman.

Diana directly admits that Grail is stronger and at least as strong as her:

But what's even more impressive about this part is the fact that:

a). Diana is the God of War in this instance, specifically making her stronger and faster:

b). She is without her bracelets , which specifically make her MUCH more powerful:

Here's Wonder Woman's fight against Artemis without bracers :

Here's Wonder Woman's fight against Artemis with bracers :


Here's Wonder Woman's fight with First Born with bracers :


Here's Wonder Woman's fight with First Born without bracelets :

Grail is physically superior to even that.


But what about her other side, her....Darkseid?

This is where it gets crazy.

I. Omega Beams

The beams are so powerful, that they shattered Wonder Woman's bracelets:

The bracelets are probably the most impressive defensive weapon in comics. I will go more in depth if needed, but everybody here is familiar with them, and I don't want to turn this into respect thread, unless needed.

What I want to point out, is the fact that the bracelets had no problem against her father's Omega Beams:

And a single beam did this to Superman:

Here they vaporize Superwoman :

And they go straight through Darkseid who was ridiculously amped:

To understand how amped he was, here is the combined Justice League literally putting it their all and he just walks casually through it all.

It's insane.

The beams would one-shot any of my opponents.

Can she direct them like Darkseid? The answer is yes, she even did it as a baby.

Incidently, this last scan shows exactly how this entire fight would go.

The Omega Beams are so fast Flash couldn't outrun them and resorted to trickery, while Superman was caught and one-shotted . None of my opponents would even take a breath before they're dead.


II. Weapons

Grail weilds an axe, made to cut gods, and which casually one-shots a construct made by the combined might of Hal under Geoff Johns, mind you], John, Kilowog and other lanterns]:

It passes through Shazam like butter and is about to decapitate him:

Again, suffice to say, the axe would one-shot everybody here.

Hm..what's that noise...?

Yes, she also has a motherbox.

I'm sure most of you are already familiar with them, but let this scan refresh your memory:

Game on.



Celey's tactic:


Part 1 - Vibrators, misty edgelords and canon fodder

For those of you that have read King Hyperion, you know he's almost the most arrogant prick on the field , so to say that he'd become an unengaging floating vibrator is hilarious.
But let's leave that aside for a moment and treat the actual argument.

What celey fails to mention is that Hyperion's vibration is literally tailor made for Blink's abilities, after he had her studied:

It's something that he has employed specifically only for her attack.
Whatever it's trying to be passed on as, clearly it's not. Maybe he's traumatized after Blink teleported sand inside of him, and he's doing it just in case she appears?

Since we're on the topic of Hyperion, it's quite important to understand that..

..he's shit.

This dude broke his hand on depowered (!) Juggernaut, who Muhammad Ali'd him, then had his eye beams matched by Moonstone:

Why is that last part relevant? Because he got crippled by his own eyebeams when Blink first turned them back on him (then he got torn to shreds by alternate reality Gambit):

These same beams hit Namora when Blink tried the same trick, and she survived:

Needless to say, he'd get one-shotted by the OB.

Also, the notion that Hyperion is anywhere near fast enough to even register in this fight because he 'vibrates' is amusing. Even low level speedsters can vibrate.

He wouldn't even know what hit him.


I must admit, I chuckled when I vizualized Dracula floating around, hoping Grail will spare him. Surely nothing can destroy mist!

Anyway, she eradicates his mist form with a wide-area shot of her Omega Beams:

His mist form is molecules that are suceptible to even lightning:

The OBs would erase him.
Or she could just blitz him into pieces once he materializes.



Attuma's last appearance was literally him getting danced around and cut into pieces by Power Princess with edged-weapons in a single strike:

...if only that would apply to this thread, am I right?


lol @ Iron Patriot being more than an ant in this fight.

He is a crap, mentally unstable inferior version of Iron Man.

He'd get sliced, vaporized, or physically ripped apart, like Ares was about to do, before Sentry intervened.

His shields are shit - the fact that celey doesn't post the entire scenes should tell you all that you need. His shield was rapidly falling against random Doom-bugs, and Sentry came to save him:

In all of the images he posted he was overwhelmed and fleed or had to be saved.
To say that they'd protect him from the Omega Beams is hilarious.


Doom's defenses

Close to everybody has, at some point, been hit cosmic beings not exerting themselves to their fullest.

Beyonder tangentially throwing Doom off is a non-showing - as evident by the fact that Galactus was engaging the Beyonder, and he was the one KO.

Galactus casually shrugging off Doom being passed off as showing it can tank the Omega Beams is amusing. Galactus has put more effort facing the Thing.

Thanos w/Power Gem? He was toying with them, and many people have survived his attacks, including Dumb Drax and Masterson Thor:

The fact that he barely survives in all of them even in those conditions does not bode well, either.

I know most of you have read on Doom, so portraying him as a cosmic-being tanking machine must be hilarious for you, too, but just in case it's not obvious..

Let's look at Doom's showings against high metas/heralds, when he was the actual target, while the latter tries to defend himself.

a). Iron Man almost completely depletes his shield, to the point that Doom resorts to magic to gain the advantage.
b). Sentry comes and finishes the job in two attacks

...later, and Scot is going to love this, Sentry literally walks through his full power-defenses and rips his faceplate off:

I know we like to joke around about Doom, but let's not pretend like he's not just a smidge above Iron Man, consistently, throughout their history.

There's dozens of examples I can show where Doom's defenses are overwhelmed.


Phasing/intangibility against attacks

Flash, who is undoubtedly the king of phasing:

...had to phase through another person in order to escape the Omega Beams.

Intangibility is now the no-limits ability on the forum, working even against every type of attack? Physical ones, sure, but one of the most destructive forces in the Universe? Please.

Furthermore, Loki's phasing has been countered:


Now, if only I had on me something that could change the density of molecules...



Grail has withstood the lasso of truth without any sort of problems:

And the motherbox can literally stop anybody from getting in her mind, as it has done with Hector Hammond high-end telepath:

Let's not act as if she's up against Despero or anything.


Next post: my opponent's misconceptions, why he has the worst tactics and more on Grail!

*cue Dragon Ball Z theme*

Shocking! - Opponent saying random stuff, leaving out context and wasting space


"Here, Wonder Woman is shot by guns"

Those are literal love bullets, shot by Eros . They're not an attack meant to destroy. It's an abstract concept being shot at her. Diana had a 'hole' in her chest for Hades to 'fill'

They're made by Hephaestus to make the ones it's aimed at fall in love.

The bracelets were't destroyed, you can see them intact in fact right here, where Diana uses the same gun to shoot and make Hades love himself as he looks in the mirror:

It has nothing to do with 'destruction', as evidence when Superman caught them because he already loved Diana, and chose not to love her due to being shot:

Now, as much as I like Superman, let's not pretend that his palms are more durable than Diana's bracelets+body combined.

One showing against an abstract concept attacked by a literal God of Love with a weapon made by the literal God of Weapons does not mean the bracelets are shit.

They've never so much as been scratched by

- Darkseid's Omega Beams

- Pandora's enchanted bullets
For reference:


Wonder Woman's sword(s) and other items are irrelevant to what we're talking about. But since we're posting unrelated things: Diana's sword/weapons haven't been constant - she can create them herself, she can lend them from Hephaestus, she can get them from Olympus etc. So they're not all the same.


"Wonder Woman saying that Grail is above her in speed and at least as strong should be ignored, because some statements in comics are false, so obviously this is false, too"

To hell with anything people say in comics, am I right? No? Ok.

I'll let the judges decide, who to believe - Wonder Woman talking about her own adversary, who humiliated her moments after she made that statement, or Celey calling her a liar?!

There's limited space in this debate already, so I won't address every attempt at crowding the discussion with this kind of stuff.

Suffice to say, Grail's superiority over Wonder Woman was shown when she covered tens of feet before she could react, choking her out with one hand while she can do nothing about her killing other people, and Diana having to be saved by Hal/Jessica, with Diana waking up from unconsciousness on the car only at the end of Grail's fight with them.

Grail could control her Omega Beams as a baby with ridiculous precision, striking multiple targets one after another. But she can't as an adult, because it was obviously involuntary...precision. As a baby. Right.

I'll let common sense win out here.


Grail, Darkseid's daughter, whose Omega Beams are depicted literally the same way Darkseid's:

....are slower, because they haven't raced the Flash yet, obviously.

Again, common sense. It's like saying Supergirl's heat vision moves slower than Superman's, unless it has a specific showing as his. Yes, Superman's is more powerful, and he has shown greater versatility but it's asinine to randomly say that one is slower than the other, when it's literally the same thing.

For reference, the Omega Beams have been depicted fast enough in Final Crisis to match the Flashes trying their best: them being fast enough for Flash to struggle against them is quite consistent.


Grail was controlling Darkseid with the Anti-Life Equation, so every move of his was what she was telling him to do. That was their connection, and why he stumbled when she did - he was her puppet.

That is completely unrelated to his physical durability - Grail's Omega Beams going through Darkseid is their feat entirely. The fact that this action also removed the Anti-Life entity doesn't change the fact that it first had to bypass his immense physical durability, which it's clearly shown to do so as it passes right through him.

Barda's weapon deflecting the beams in a single panel is irrelevant since Grail in a no PIS environment can control and direct them to any target.

To reiterate:
The beams one-shot Wonder Woman level opponents , shattered ridiculous defensive weapons and pass through bonifide Justice League no-selling Darkseid.

Nobody here has a chance.


Now let's move on to my favorite opponent's tactics!

He literally placed everybody there like statues, waiting for me to strike, and desperately scanning for Grail's presence.

You know the problem with that?

She doesn't hide from them.

Grail has used the boom tube to track and teleport behind opponents:

Given her ridiculous advantage in speed this could literally turn into a horror movie.

Grail would Jason Voorhees everybody on the field. They'd get vaporized/cut into pieces faster than they can blink.

I also like to point out that Grail can just command the Mother Box to send any of my opponents to Apokolips/anywhere if so she wishes:


And they can also cloak people even from Green Lantern rings

Now, about speed, you're probably wondering...Grails is faster than Wonder Woman, but how fast is Wonder Woman?

Well, she's so fast Supergirl was having problems keeping up with her combat speed:

For reference, here is Supergirl having an extended superspeed fight with Flash:

My opponents are literal sitting ducks.

How used is Grail to fighting and evading multiple opponents?

She is off the charts.

Superman, Wonder Woman, Flash and Green Lanterns can't catch her even as she is carrying a baby in her hands.

Given her ridiculous speed advantage, they wouldn't be able to touch/react to her, at all.

If by some off-change Grail gets hit at one point , how does she do?

I assume you're all familiar with Hal "I make holes through skyfathers and my willpower is the biggest nexus in creation" Jordan?

Well, here's how Grail treats his attack, and then displays her energy manipulation as she takes control of his power:

And I assure you, nobody in this thread is even close to Hal's output, as most of you already know.

This is, of course, besides the energy manipulation that the motherbox offers her.

How good is the motherbox at it? It has taken control of the entire reservoir of the central power battery :

Celey, thanks for taking the time to do this and judges, thank you for taking the time to read through it all.

My final thoughts


I think I've illustrated just how ridiculously overpowered Grail truly is and that she truly lived up to her Darkseid/Diana fusion + new Gods tech that I've mentioned at the beginning.

But let's talk about how my opponent chose to approach the match. First of all, I have yet to see any kind of feasible argumentation why they're doing the actions that celey is arguing they are.

It feels like he thinks that he has the game controller in hand, personality be damned.

Look at this description:

Everybody is specifically positioned behind somebody, who is behind some other guy, but then that other guy teleports to a specific place, while the other dude vibrates, and the other dude just stands there with his shields to the max, and the other dude floats around as a mist.

Ignoring the fact that each of these were countered, but just in principle...what is this, Dungeons & Dragons?

They don't even know what Grail can do , why in the hell are they acting as if they're already trying to counter her?

I'm up against seven characters, that have appeared in thousands of comics, so I'd need 10 pages to prove a consistency, but it's common sense that nobody actually fights this way, much less IMMEDIATELY as the fight starts.

Hyperion vibrated once, against a specific attack that he has studied, and now he's the Flash?
Loki ocasionally phases through objects and has used his intangibility less than a dozen times throught his entire 50 years history, but now goes into that state immediately? Why does he not shapeshift into a bird? Why does he not ready himself to attack physically? Why does he not...etc.
Apocalypse instantly teleports away so that he can't be detected and starts some sort of telepathic scan, just because he read Ozymandias mind once when he was standing next to him? Are we inventing abilities now?

They also have to at least try to attack at some point - and their own defenses/states of vibrating/phased/mist stand in the way.

Speaking of which, and this is a considerably ridiculous part...

This entire strategy is based on the exact situation Grail excels at - ambush.

It's literally the tactic she roflstomped the Justice League with - she teleported from a distance, in that case locking to Flash's frequency and teleporting in his mouth :

...and then she savagely went to town on all of them.

I also posted the scene where she locks in and teleports behind Steve Trevor. Imagine her applying this tactic, with intention to massacre her opponents.

Or she could just jump them, and literally tell Motherbox to send them in another dimension, which is something not even Superman resisted when he was sent to Apokolips.

It gets even weirder when people randomly start teleporting away , fly to the sky or just stand there in the middle of the battlefield, waiting to be attacked . They're just...statues scanning whatever they can, when Grail is not even the type to hide, and the mother box offers her cloaking/telepathy protection/teleportation.

This is like purposely making it easier for her.


You might've noticed that I didn't insist too much on speed in this thread, except in my last post.

But make no mistake, in the 'full capacity' forum rules, they wouldn't even see her coming. Imagine a highly-skilled teleporter with a cut-it-all axe and one-shotting Omega Beams that she can bend at her will coupled with kryptonian++ level fighting speed],

, not before, obviously.]

It's a very important point to remember, because this fight is 1 vs 7 but make no mistake, they wouldn't be able to know what the f is going on as they're getting sliced/vaporized.

The numbers also flatter my adversary, considering half of the other team don't even enter the low-herald category. I know celey tried everybody do something "uhh...Dracula goes mist, and Attuma, like, totally smiles as he gets ready to have his ass plowed", but let's be serious here.

In short:

- can one-shot anybody here.
- is used to ambushing teams that are far superior to this one.
- is used to dancing around multiple adversaries far more competent and faster than anybody here
- has a motherbox, which is basically mini-omnipotence, which can protect, teleport and do basically anything Grail tells her to.


Reminder: Judges, please PM your decision to darksaint and not post it here directly. Thanks.


So now we've come to this. He says I have a controller even though I've already acknowledged that this is a forum fight in my second post. Yet he's still dwelling on my first post as if that is the only way this fight goes. It is just but one scenario in which Grail will ultimately end up getting murdered.

What I've continued to show are their actual on-panel feats that may lead to those types of scenarios. Feats that belong to my team. While he on the other hand is a purveyor of feats that don't even belong to his horse. He talks of common sense. This has nothing to do with common sense. It has to do with forum rules and standards. He has to resort to this type of false debating due to the relatively sparse showings of his character. It is a strength yet more of a weakness currently inherent to her.

Now this bit with basic knowledge. We know we are going to fight a tough opponent. We will know more when Loki peers into her mind and lets the team know what she is all about. I've already shown scans of him doing so and communicating his thoughts to others.

And if for some reason Grail is not slowed down and taken out by Loki's mind tricks, tactical teleportation, shields galore, matter manip, invisibility, intangibility, powerful bindings, multiple blows and blasts from all angles, maybe on Ovoid mind transfer will take her out. Surely she has no counter for that. stick out tongue

Originally posted by ODG
He first uses it in FF10 and transfers into Reed's body:

Far from a one-time only power, Doom again makes use of the Ovoid Mind Transfer to save his life, recounting it in FF287:

And if using it twice doesn't convince you that Doom still maintains this ability, he uses it again to transfer into Zarrko's body in FF407:

And if you really still think he wouldn't use such a power in present comics, he used the Ovoid Mind Transfer again in FF 507 to take over Sue's body, then Johnny's body, then Thing's body even while being assaulted. Even Thing's iron will isn't enough to stop Doom:

Oh phuk this.. Game over the end.

Went back to my 9400 version

As celey was unfortunately past the deadline, judges,please disregard his last two posts. IOW, the one immediately preceding this one AND the one pertaining to the Ovoid Mind Transfer.

However, as an olive branch, and to avoid what Taylor Swift would call 'Bad Blood', I am allowing the one immediately preceding the Ovoid Mind Transfer post.

So the post which begins with a reference to Wondys bracers? Take that into consideration.

I made a note to read through this and send a ruling to DS. But feel free to bug me again if, say, the weekend rolls around and I've forgotten.

Sorry for my tardiness -- I haven't been on in a few days as I am finalizing a bunch of shit for my impending move.

Anywho, I'll read through all of this tonight(sans celey's late/inadmissible posts) and will try to get a ruling submitted to DS by tomorrow.


We got a winner yet?

I have three rulings so far:
Leo, DS, Galan.

I am awaiting two more:
Digi, Delta.

What do people want - wait until a majority is reach, or all five are in?

Both combatants are inferior TO I, THE LORDOFBATTLEZONES, so the outcome is IRRELEVANT!!!!

my vote would be to post the winner as soon as enough votes are in to decide it. that way the others don't have to waste time trying to get theirs in. /shrug

Wow! The votes aren't in yet?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I have three rulings so far:
Leo, DS, Galan.

I am awaiting two more:
Digi, Delta.

What do people want - wait until a majority is reach, or all five are in?

Interesting, so we have a split decision already.

The fate of the next month of KMC hangs in the balance.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I have three rulings so far:
Leo, DS, Galan.

I am awaiting two more:
Digi, Delta.

What do people want - wait until a majority is reach, or all five are in? Don't post any verdicts until there is a majority decision/winner. That way you don't unintentionally sway the remaining judges.

My vote is in. Hopefully I didn't make it 2-2 so the result can be posted, but I guess we'll see.

Originally posted by Damborgson
The fate of the next month of KMC hangs in the balance.

Lol, wait, I must have missed this. Was there a bet or something?

The votes are in.

I will not wait for Delta.

Truly, it has been a good match.

Digi, there was indeed a bet. Loser has to sharpen their wits.

Digi's vote

Vote: Celey

Darksaint85's vote

Vote: Philosophia

Galan007's vote

Vote: Philosophia

Leonidas' vote

Vote: Philosophia

Votes are 3 to Philosophia, and 1 to celeyhyga17, with 4 votes cast out of 5.

Philosophia is the winner. Well done to both sides.

What was the bet?

Good job to both sides. I normally HATE reading BZ topics but this one was quite nice.

If Philo won, he'd have to support Carver for a month.

So anytime Carver posted, no matter how strange or idiotic Philo found it, he'd have to argue and support Carver as if his life depended on it. If Carver said Superman sucked d1ck, he'd have to provide scans etc arguing passionately for it, not just 'yeah I agree'.

For a whole month.

Celey had to do the same, but with abhi. If abhi said Superman was better than Thor, celey had to chime right in with scans and arguments passionately arguing why Superman was so much better than Thor.

Thanks to Darksaint for moderating/judging, as well as Galan/Leo/Digi for taking the time to read and come to a decision; and also to Celey, for participating. Hope everybody reading this had fun.

The stipulations for the one losing the battlezone were that he'd have to represent one of the two posters for an entire month, no matter what the other one posts. It's not mod-imposed, so nobody is forcing anybody, but it'd be nice to keep the promises.

I, for one, will probably try to support carver for the sake of it, as time allows it.

Phil and I have a BZ match coming up. Voting against him was step one of my plan to put him on tilt.


But seriously, congrats! I enjoyed reading through the match.


Originally posted by Digi
Phil and I have a BZ match coming up. Voting against him was step one of my plan to put him on tilt.


But seriously, congrats! I enjoyed reading through the match.
What BZ?

Originally posted by abhilegend
What BZ?

You'll see soon enough. Leo and DS are involved too. Randomized drafts. It's a complete sh*t show, but should be a lot of fun.

thumb up

It should be. If Digi didn't keep whining.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
It should be. If Digi didn't keep whining. Digi as he saw the picks:

Smh, I'm surrounded by fake news. I was the only one who was cool with the initial draft, then the redraft. THEN the individual redrafts of 1-2 characters without enough appearances. Basically I wanted fate to decide, but they hit an RNG button until they had a chance to beat me.

stick out tongue

Then again, that Tobey gif is entirely true.

Amazing BZ. Good job Philo...i don't want to ever BZ this guy even though i think it would be entertaining. Good job to you as well Cel.


thumb up.

Phildo thanks you, good citizen!


Originally posted by carver9
Amazing BZ. Good job Philo...i don't want to ever BZ this guy even though i think it would be entertaining. Good job to you as well Cel.

Disregard this statement. Got a question Phil. By any chance, would you do a battlezone against me with Grail vs Hulk without any consequences?

Originally posted by carver9
Disregard this statement. Got a question Phil. By any chance, would you do a battlezone against me with Grail vs Hulk without any consequences? I've already said what there is to say about her. What is the point? If you want to masturbate, go ahead and make posts then PM the judges to make a ruling, I don't care. But make it in a separate thread.

thumb upthank you for PMing me, I will gladly consent to be the sole judge

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
thumb upthank you for PMing me, I will gladly consent to be the sole judge thumb up

Cartard will soon PM you all his posts.

Insane Titan has also agreed to judge.

Loser will go into a bare-knuckle street fight with him.

People these days on KMC do not know how to just say 'Yes or no'. I don't get it. Anyways, thanks for the response Philo.

He's not saying no.

He's just saying in a BZ, all he'd do is quote himself, so you may as well just make a thread, then post in there. It's not as if Grail has more issues to draw from.

Just post your arguments, and Phildo will have the exact same showings (maybe with a search and replace to make it Hulk-relevant). then get the judges.

That's a lot of confidence on your part though Carv, it'd be cool if you guys did that in the future.

Back from vacay!

Skimmed through rulings. Congrats to phil. I'm surprised about a few things regarding the write ups... Mainly "hide and seek" andbasic knowledge.

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