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Grail vs the Cabal
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Grail vs the Cabal

1). Forum fight - Grail vs the Cabal (Classic Doom, King Hyperion, Classic Loki, Dracula, Apocalypse, Norman Osborn and Attuma)
2). Opening + 4 posts (each post, even if one after another, counts as a separate post)
3). Galan, Scot, Darksaint, Delta, Leo (maybe Digi/Id, if one pulls out and they have time)
4). Loser reps every post abhi/carver make for a month, like he really means it, not ironically.
5). Location: an abandoned industrial complex.

- Initial post will be PMd to Darksaint until this Friday
- All the other posts will be posted until next friday

A darkness falls across the land. Grail has come to Marvel.

The Cabal stand ready.


Old Post Jul 8th, 2017 07:46 AM
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Hello everybody.

As you read this debate, I'd like to state what is one of the most important factors in this thread - it's a forum fight.

We're not in control of the characters as we would be in a battlezone and CIS (Character Inhibited Power) is still in effect.

It will be relevant as you read on, since I'm up against half a dozen opponents, each with a myriad of abilities, and celey will try to cherry pick what thinks suits him best, without regard to which ones they actually use the large, large majority of fights.

As you judge what will and will not be used, I'd like to point out that it's not a case of 'will Superman/Flash etc. use his speed?'. Those characters are very limited in terms of how many abilities they have, so Superman using something as basic as dodging/moving fast is not the same as character X in this thread using ability #27.

To quote the forum rules:
The character's personality is an integral part of the match and dictates how they will perform. This is the crux of the rules we've come up with. It doesn't come down to powers, it comes down to the man or woman that weilds them.


With that said..

What if Darkseid and Wonder Woman did a fusion dance? [it's that carver mindset creeping in]

I present Grail:

(please log in to view the image)

Grail is the daughter of the best Amazon assassin and Darkseid.

She's been trained her whole life by that same assassin:

[Justice League Darkseid War Special]

As a consequence of her parents, she's the best of BOTH worlds.

Let's start with what was previously the best of the Amazons - which is to say, Wonder Woman.

Diana directly admits that Grail is stronger and at least as strong as her:

[Justice League #42]


But what's even more impressive about this part is the fact that:

a). Diana is the God of War in this instance, specifically making her stronger and faster:
[Wonder Woman #47]

b). She is without her bracelets [we'll get to how they were broken in a minute smile], which specifically make her MUCH more powerful:
[Justice League #41]
(please log in to view the image)

Here's Wonder Woman's fight against Artemis without bracers :
[Wonder Woman #12]


Here's Wonder Woman's fight against Artemis with bracers [Artemis is even taunting her on why she doesn't take them off to show her true power] [Diana is overwhelmed physically but manages to tactically beat her]:
[Wonder Woman #23]



Here's Wonder Woman's fight with First Born with bracers [Bonus: Orion getting destroyed, too]:
[Wonder Woman #21]

Here's Wonder Woman's fight with First Born without bracelets :
[Wonder Woman #23]
[Wonder Woman #35]
[she's also GOW here]

Grail is physically superior to even that.


But what about her other side, her....Darkseid? [sorry..]

This is where it gets crazy.

I. Omega Beams

The beams are so powerful, that they shattered Wonder Woman's bracelets:
[Justice League #41]


The bracelets are probably the most impressive defensive weapon in comics. I will go more in depth if needed, but everybody here is familiar with them, and I don't want to turn this into respect thread, unless needed.

What I want to point out, is the fact that the bracelets had no problem against her father's Omega Beams:
[Justice League #6]

And a single beam did this to Superman:

Here they vaporize Superwoman [think the Wonder Woman equivalent from CSA]:
[Justice League #50]

And they go straight through Darkseid who was ridiculously amped:


To understand how amped he was, here is the combined Justice League literally putting it their all and he just walks casually through it all.


It's insane.

The beams would one-shot any of my opponents.

Can she direct them like Darkseid? The answer is yes, she even did it as a baby.
[Darkseid War Special]

Incidently, this last scan shows exactly how this entire fight would go.

The Omega Beams are so fast Flash couldn't outrun them and resorted to trickery, while Superman was caught and one-shotted [see the above scan]. None of my opponents would even take a breath before they're dead.


II. Weapons

Grail weilds an axe, made to cut gods, and which casually one-shots a construct made by the combined might of Hal [yes, this is Hal [a.k.a. God] under Geoff Johns, mind you], John, Kilowog and other lanterns]:


It passes through Shazam like butter and is about to decapitate him:

[Justice League #41]


Again, suffice to say, the axe would one-shot everybody here.

Hm..what's that noise...?

(please log in to view the image)

Yes, she also has a motherbox.

I'm sure most of you are already familiar with them, but let this scan refresh your memory:

(please log in to view the image)

Game on.


Old Post Jul 8th, 2017 07:47 AM
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No Win Situation
First off… Thanks Darktaint for hosting. Thanks judges for your time. And even though we usually don't see eye to eye, good luck Phildo.

Let's make this simple shall we. We are immediately dumped in an abandoned industrial complex as per agreed upon setting. Industrial complexes are usually huge and filled with all kinds of obstacles and visual obstructions.
My opponent is Grail. I won't waste time on her for now since you guys have probably read Phil's take and his extolling of her virtues.

1. Loki immediately phases nearby and is invisible. Mind phuck Grail with suggestions and illusions.
2. Doom raises max shields/defense. He is in view of Patriot,and Attuma. Will attack as soon as Grail is in view.
3. Hyperion vibrates his molecules and flies up a few hundred feet above the complex. He starts scanning the whole area for her and his teammates through his variety of super senses, ready to pounce at a moments notice.
4. Apocalypse immediately teleports at an inconspicuous spot away from open view. Starts peering into her mind.
5. Iron Patriot raises shields. Will attack as soon Grail is in view. Scans for Grail. He is in view of Doom and Attuma.
6. Attuma stands ready with weapon in hand and a big grin on his face. Will attack as soon Grail is in view. He is in view of Doom and Patriot.
7. Dracula immediately is in mist form. He is in the vicinity of Doom and Attuma. Surveying the upcoming action just waiting for his turn.

So what is Phil's Grail going to do? Go full bore and blitz her way to victory? Highly doubt that would work in an abandoned industrial complex with all the nooks and crannies. Definitely wouldn't work against the whole team especially one that includes teleporters(Loki, Apoc, Doom) and has a member who is fast enough to vibrate his molecules((Hype).

Maybe she'll go for broke and send out her powerful omega beams. Again, industrial complex with nooks and crannies, and all kinds of visual obstructions.

Or maybe she will go blitz mode and use her beams in tandem? But alas, same issue with having to take out the whole team as fast as possible in such a place and each member's abilities to counter.

Judging by the way my cabal begins, she already lost.. Loki would have found her in the industrial complex already bombarding her mind with illusions and suggestions that would slow her down.. Apoc would have sensed her mind and would immediately teleport for a surprise attack. King Hype would have tracked her down from above and would blind side her out of nowhere.
If she somehow gets in contact with the cabal fairly quickly(doubtful), more than likely she would have spotted Attuma, Patriot with shields, and Doom with all his defenses at max. The moment she makes her move, she may take down one maybe two of the three, but not all. Highly doubtful with Doom's defenses and what he can bring to bear offensively, Attuma's strength, and Patriot's repulsors all day. And then there's Dracula in mist form. How can she even touch him? Not to mention the three waiting in the wings away from her view. All three can reach her at moment's notice. Loki and Apoc teleporting to blindside her, and Hype with the speed and long range attack(flash vision).

Now what if she starts defensive? She's phuukked. She would now be deep in Loki's trickery and the team reaches her in waves and attacking from all angles. She would be extremely vulnerable with her addled mind.

She's not going to win here.

Scans in next post.


Old Post Jul 8th, 2017 07:48 AM
DarkSaint85 is currently offline Click here to Send DarkSaint85 a Private Message Find more posts by DarkSaint85 Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Yawning Void

Gender: Unspecified
Location: Nidavellir

No Win Situation
My theme is keep it simple. So lets do that shal

Some things about Philo's opening post.
1. CIS? Sure thing. Not a problem for me and just muddies up the water even more for him considering there really aren't much options for Grail to win here. If she had any chance(0.00000001%), it would be taking the entirety of the Cabal out asap with a very specific plan. In actuality all I did was paint a very clear picture of what would happen 999,999 out of 1,000,000 because all I used from the Cabal are what they are known to do… As ya'll shall soon see.

2. Philo sure did show a lot of Wondy feats. Not sure why eulogizing extensively about Wondy's feats is much help to Grail since Grail did not perform any of Wondy's feats…. Maybe I should start eulogizing about Pre-Retcon Beyonder's and Thanos's w/IG feats considering a prominent member of the Cabal here boasts defenses that has saved him more than once from these multiversal/universal beings. stick out tongue
And about Grail being faster or stronger, feats over statements. There is no definitive proof of these thoughts. If we just rely on statements, then J'onn is stronger and more powerful than Superman.

3. Even more egregious is Philo's use of DS's beams as a feat for Grail. What?! Hitting Superman and chasing Flash therefore Grail's beams are as fast. Err.. Last I heard feat sharing doesn't fly here. But lets humor him for a sec. How fast were those beams going? Pretty sure u won't find that anywhere in that comic.
There's also that bit of issue where the League at that time were sort of Rookie-ish.
Hell they didn't even have a team name.

It's also doubtful she can direct her beams like DS. In Philo's own scan, she explained how her mother had told her she giggled as the men screamed. It was more an involuntary reaction if anything. How can she voluntarily replicate something that she probably did not even remember until her mother told her about it. Again with this feat sharing with Darkseid.

4. Also don't get me wrong. Grail's beams are very powerful. However when it destroyed Wondy's bracers, it was a concentrated beam which we have not really seen her replicate against others. Plus Wondy's god items are not the be all, end all in terms of durability considering her bracers has been also broken by Cupid's gun and her other new52god items are not all that durable to begin with.
(Sword melted by DD's aura)
(Heck her Sword was shattered by a weapon that has been broken by Killer Croc's bite)
Certainly not up to par with preboot level.
In regards to shooting man-child DS, don't forget a very distinct point the book made. They were connected. It wasn't as simple as Grail hurting amped baby DS, their connection through her rituals with the use of ale was clearly evident.
For one, Batron was told by the Mobeus chair that their connection was an important tidbit in the way to stop them and her beams didn’t actually hurt/kill DS.
It removed the ale and turned him back to an infant.
It's powerful yes, but not unstoppable. Heck Barda's mega rod stopped it cold.
So yes, there was more at play with Grail blasting DS with her beams.

Now to more important things.
Remember my little opening scenario? Not at all far fetched. He usually likes to hang back and let others do the dirty work.
A) Loki would teleport/phase.. Play with her mind with all kinds of visions, illusions, and suggestions. Hellooo.. God of Mischief here.

Teleports and phased immediately. Thor397-398

Teleports and immediately invisible. Thor Godstorm1

Again God of Mischief. All he ever does is trickery through illusions and mind phukkery.

From far away he can still mess u up with illusions. AvengtheOrigin

Give her all kinds of mental suggestions. AvengtheOrigin

Elaborate false visions. AvengOrigin

Again with mental mischief. AvengSeasonOne
Easily tricks Thor and the Avengers with illusions. AvengSeasonOne
Cap and Tony falls for them. In Tony's case he thought he was fighting Kronans in a spaceship. That's some elaborate shiet. AvengSeasonOne
All this from a remote area. Easy peasy. AvengSeasonOne

B) How about Doom? His defenses are tremendous and he would have them up knowing he's against a tough opponent.

His defenses has held up against the Beyonder. SecretWars1
Held up against Galactus. SecretWars7
Held up against Thanos w/PG. InfinityGauntlet4

C) Hyperion can vibrate his molecules tactically for defense. Exiles64
Again. Exiles65

I also said that he'd be using his super senses to track her down.
Excellent far sight. Exiles40
See through walls. Exiles38
Superb hearing. Exiles63

D) Apocalypse is a described as a teleporter.
Teleports mid battle.
Can teleport himself and others.

Apoc is a mind reader.

E) Iron Patriot utilizes shields all the time.

Even against powerful coasters like Le Fey. DarkAven3
Doom's drones. SiegCabal1
Can use shields offensively. Briefly traps a reality warper clone. Ms.Marvel40

Can use his scanning to track Grail in this setting(abandoned industrial complex). NewAvengersAnn3

F) Attuma to me is just a bonus. A bonus given an opening can put a hurting on Grail.

He now has Namor's strength and flight. DarkReign MadeMen1

He goes blasty blast and punchy punch on Hulk. Indestructible Hulk5

G) What did I say about Dracula? Mist form, mist form, mist form..

Mist form to avoid Mjolnir. Thor333
Mist form to avoid his buddy Apoc. X-Men Apocalypse/Dracula2
No on that fast ball special.

Scouting in mist form ready to pounce.

So all in all not so far fetched from my scenario. He says cherry picking? I think not. These powers I presented are what they are known for and their calling cards.
With a team like this, there are many scenarios that can go down that easily puts them on the winning side. While she on the other hand has an infinitesimal window of opportunity to get a win.
I haven't even begun to show what they're capable of. I have the luxury of fodder. She does not.
It's an uphill battle. Plain and simple.


Old Post Jul 11th, 2017 07:28 PM
celeyhyga17 is currently offline Click here to Send celeyhyga17 a Private Message Find more posts by celeyhyga17 Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
"The devil made me do it"

Gender: Male
Location: Void

Celey's tactic:

(please log in to view the image)


Part 1 - Vibrators, misty edgelords and canon fodder

For those of you that have read King Hyperion, you know he's almost the most arrogant prick on the field [and with Doom, that's saying something], so to say that he'd become an unengaging floating vibrator is hilarious.
But let's leave that aside for a moment and treat the actual argument.

What celey fails to mention is that Hyperion's vibration is literally tailor made for Blink's abilities, after he had her studied:
[Exiles #64]

It's something that he has employed specifically only for her attack.
Whatever it's trying to be passed on as, clearly it's not. Maybe he's traumatized after Blink teleported sand inside of him, and he's doing it just in case she appears?

Since we're on the topic of Hyperion, it's quite important to understand that..

[SPOILER - highlight to read]: ..he's shit.

This dude broke his hand on depowered (!) Juggernaut, who Muhammad Ali'd him, then had his eye beams matched by Moonstone:
[Thunderbolts #152]

Why is that last part relevant? Because he got crippled by his own eyebeams when Blink first turned them back on him (then he got torn to shreds by alternate reality Gambit):
[Exiles #45]

These same beams hit Namora when Blink tried the same trick, and she survived:
[Exiles #64]

Needless to say, he'd get one-shotted by the OB.

Also, the notion that Hyperion is anywhere near fast enough to even register in this fight because he 'vibrates' is amusing. Even low level speedsters can vibrate.

He wouldn't even know what hit him.


I must admit, I chuckled when I vizualized Dracula floating around, hoping Grail will spare him. Surely nothing can destroy mist!

Anyway, she eradicates his mist form with a wide-area shot of her Omega Beams:

[Justice League #41]

His mist form is molecules that are suceptible to even lightning:

The OBs would erase him.
Or she could just blitz him into pieces once he materializes.



Attuma's last appearance was literally him getting danced around and cut into pieces by Power Princess [a marvel Wonder Woman analogue] with edged-weapons in a single strike:

[Squadron Supreme #1]

...if only that would apply to this thread, am I right?


lol @ Iron Patriot being more than an ant in this fight.

He is a crap, mentally unstable inferior version of Iron Man.

He'd get sliced, vaporized, or physically ripped apart, like Ares was about to do, before Sentry intervened.

His shields are shit - the fact that celey doesn't post the entire scenes should tell you all that you need. His shield was rapidly falling against random Doom-bugs, and Sentry came to save him:

[Siege - the Cabal]

In all of the images he posted he was overwhelmed and fleed or had to be saved.
To say that they'd protect him from the Omega Beams is hilarious.


Doom's defenses

Close to everybody has, at some point, been hit cosmic beings not exerting themselves to their fullest.

Beyonder [focused on Galactus] tangentially throwing Doom off is a non-showing - as evident by the fact that Galactus was engaging the Beyonder, and he was the one KO.

Galactus casually shrugging off Doom being passed off as showing it can tank the Omega Beams is amusing. Galactus has put more effort facing the Thing.

Thanos w/Power Gem? He was toying with them, and many people have survived his attacks, including Dumb Drax and Masterson Thor:

[Infinity Gauntlet #4]

The fact that he barely survives in all of them even in those conditions does not bode well, either.

I know most of you have read on Doom, so portraying him as a cosmic-being tanking machine must be hilarious for you, too, but just in case it's not obvious..

Let's look at Doom's showings against high metas/heralds, when he was the actual target, while the latter tries to defend himself.

a). Iron Man almost completely depletes his shield, to the point that Doom resorts to magic to gain the advantage.
b). Sentry comes and finishes the job in two attacks

[Mighty Avengers #9]

...later, and Scot is going to love this, Sentry literally walks through his full power-defenses and rips his faceplate off:

[Mighty Avengers #11]

I know we like to joke around about Doom, but let's not pretend like he's not just a smidge above Iron Man, consistently, throughout their history.

There's dozens of examples I can show where Doom's defenses are overwhelmed.


Phasing/intangibility against attacks

Flash, who is undoubtedly the king of phasing:

[Superboy #16]

...had to phase through another person [Parademon] in order to escape the Omega Beams.

[Justice League #5]

Intangibility is now the no-limits ability on the forum, working even against every type of attack? Physical ones, sure, but one of the most destructive forces in the Universe? Please.

Furthermore, Loki's phasing has been countered:

[JIM #119]


Now, if only I had on me something that could change the density of molecules...

[Orion #25]



Grail has withstood the lasso of truth without any sort of problems:

[JL #41]

And the motherbox can literally stop anybody from getting in her mind, as it has done with Hector Hammond high-end telepath:


Let's not act as if she's up against Despero or anything.


Next post: my opponent's misconceptions, why he has the worst tactics and more on Grail!

*cue Dragon Ball Z theme*


“Perhaps this is the ultimate freedom. The freedom to leave.”

Last edited by Philosophía on Jul 11th, 2017 at 11:47 PM

Old Post Jul 11th, 2017 11:45 PM
Philosophía is currently offline Click here to Send Philosophía a Private Message Find more posts by Philosophía Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
"The devil made me do it"

Gender: Male
Location: Void

(please log in to view the image)
Shocking! - Opponent saying random stuff, leaving out context and wasting space


"Here, Wonder Woman is shot by guns"

Those are literal love bullets, shot by Eros [the God of Love, think Cupidon]. They're not an attack meant to destroy. It's an abstract concept being shot at her. Diana had a 'hole' in her chest for Hades to 'fill'[yes, this sounds worse than it is]

They're made by Hephaestus [you know...the GOD of Weapons, who even made Diana's LASSO] to make the ones it's aimed at fall in love.

The bracelets were't destroyed, you can see them intact in fact right here, where Diana uses the same gun to shoot and make Hades [you know...the skyfather/lord of Hell] love himself as he looks in the mirror:

[WW #11]

It has nothing to do with 'destruction', as evidence when Superman caught them because he already loved Diana, and chose not to love her due to being shot:

[Young Romance #1]

Now, as much as I like Superman, let's not pretend that his palms are more durable than Diana's bracelets+body combined.

One showing against an abstract concept attacked by a literal God of Love with a weapon made by the literal God of Weapons does not mean the bracelets are shit.

They've never so much as been scratched by

- Darkseid's Omega Beams
[JL #6]

- Pandora's enchanted bullets
[JL #22]
For reference:
[JL #6]
[Stranger couldn't be killed due to his status - this same Stranger went on to stalemate Spectre]


Wonder Woman's sword(s) and other items are irrelevant to what we're talking about. But since we're posting unrelated things: Diana's sword/weapons haven't been constant - she can create them herself, she can lend them from Hephaestus, she can get them from Olympus etc. So they're not all the same.


"Wonder Woman [God of War and without bracelets] saying that Grail is above her in speed and at least as strong should be ignored, because some statements in comics are false, so obviously this is false, too"

To hell with anything people say in comics, am I right? No? Ok.

I'll let the judges decide, who to believe - Wonder Woman talking about her own adversary, who humiliated her moments after she made that statement, or Celey calling her a liar?!

There's limited space in this debate already, so I won't address every attempt at crowding the discussion with this kind of stuff.

Suffice to say, Grail's superiority over Wonder Woman was shown when she covered tens of feet before she could react, choking her out with one hand while she can do nothing about her killing other people, and Diana having to be saved by Hal/Jessica, with Diana waking up from unconsciousness on the car only at the end of Grail's fight with them.

[JL #41]

Grail could control her Omega Beams as a baby with ridiculous precision, striking multiple targets one after another. But she can't as an adult, because it was obviously involuntary...precision. As a baby. Right.

(please log in to view the image)

I'll let common sense win out here.


Grail, Darkseid's daughter, whose Omega Beams are depicted literally the same way Darkseid's:

....are slower, because they haven't raced the Flash yet, obviously.

Again, common sense. It's like saying Supergirl's heat vision moves slower than Superman's, unless it has a specific showing as his. Yes, Superman's is more powerful, and he has shown greater versatility [same as Darkseid/Grail, and judges, just to be clear, I'm not arguing that ANY of Darkseid's power feats are transferable to Grail] but it's asinine to randomly say that one is slower than the other, when it's literally the same thing.

For reference, the Omega Beams have been depicted fast enough in Final Crisis to match the Flashes trying their best: them being fast enough for Flash to struggle against them is quite consistent.


Grail was controlling Darkseid with the Anti-Life Equation, so every move of his was what she was telling him to do. That was their connection, and why he stumbled when she did - he was her puppet.

That is completely unrelated to his physical durability - Grail's Omega Beams going through Darkseid [after having already passed through Myrina, the assasin version of Wonder Woman] is their feat entirely. The fact that this action also removed the Anti-Life entity doesn't change the fact that it first had to bypass his immense physical durability, which it's clearly shown to do so as it passes right through him.

Barda's weapon deflecting the beams in a single panel is irrelevant since Grail in a no PIS environment can control and direct them to any target.

To reiterate:
The beams one-shot Wonder Woman level opponents [Superwoman, Myrina], shattered ridiculous defensive weapons [bracelets] and pass through bonifide Justice League no-selling Darkseid.

Nobody here has a chance.


Now let's move on to my favorite opponent's tactics!

He literally placed everybody there like statues, waiting for me to strike, and desperately scanning for Grail's presence.

You know the problem with that?

She doesn't hide from them.

Grail has used the boom tube to track and teleport behind opponents:

[JL #48]

Given her ridiculous advantage in speed [and we'll get to that in a moment] this could literally turn into a horror movie.

Grail would Jason Voorhees everybody on the field. They'd get vaporized/cut into pieces faster than they can blink.

I also like to point out that Grail can just command the Mother Box to send any of my opponents to Apokolips/anywhere if so she wishes:

[JL #41]


And they can also cloak people even from Green Lantern rings [which are probably the best tracking devices you can have]


Now, about speed, you're probably wondering...Grails is faster than Wonder Woman, but how fast is Wonder Woman?

Well, she's so fast Supergirl was having problems keeping up with her combat speed:

[Supergirl #17]

For reference, here is Supergirl having an extended superspeed fight with Flash:

[Supergirl #16]

My opponents are literal sitting ducks.

How used is Grail to fighting and evading multiple opponents?

She is off the charts.

[JL #50]

Superman, Wonder Woman, Flash and Green Lanterns can't catch her even as she is carrying a baby in her hands.

Given her ridiculous speed advantage, they wouldn't be able to touch/react to her, at all.

If by some off-change Grail gets hit at one point [it's impossible with my speed/teleportation, but let's entertain the idea], how does she do?

I assume you're all familiar with Hal "I make holes through skyfathers and my willpower is the biggest nexus in creation" Jordan?

Well, here's how Grail treats his attack, and then displays her energy manipulation as she takes control of his power:

And I assure you, nobody in this thread is even close to Hal's output, as most of you already know.

This is, of course, besides the energy manipulation that the motherbox offers her.

How good is the motherbox at it? It has taken control of the entire reservoir of the central power battery [think Parallax/Ion]:


“Perhaps this is the ultimate freedom. The freedom to leave.”

Last edited by Philosophía on Jul 12th, 2017 at 11:23 PM

Old Post Jul 12th, 2017 11:19 PM
Philosophía is currently offline Click here to Send Philosophía a Private Message Find more posts by Philosophía Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
"The devil made me do it"

Gender: Male
Location: Void

Celey, thanks for taking the time to do this and judges, thank you for taking the time to read through it all.

My final thoughts


I think I've illustrated just how ridiculously overpowered Grail truly is and that she truly lived up to her Darkseid/Diana fusion + new Gods tech that I've mentioned at the beginning.

But let's talk about how my opponent chose to approach the match. First of all, I have yet to see any kind of feasible argumentation why they're doing the actions that celey is arguing they are.

It feels like he thinks that he has the game controller in hand, personality be damned.

Look at this description:

Hyperion vibrates his molecules and flies up a few hundred feet above the complex.

Apocalypse immediately teleports at an inconspicuous spot away from open view

Loki immediately phases nearby and is invisible

Iron Patriot raises shields.He is in view of Doom and Attuma.

Attuma stands ready with weapon in hand and a big grin on his face. He is in view of Doom and Patriot.

Dracula immediately is in mist form. He is in the vicinity of Doom and Attuma.

Everybody is specifically positioned behind somebody, who is behind some other guy, but then that other guy teleports to a specific place, while the other dude vibrates, and the other dude just stands there with his shields to the max, and the other dude floats around as a mist.

Ignoring the fact that each of these were countered, but just in principle...what is this, Dungeons & Dragons?

They don't even know what Grail can do [forum rules - see The Opponent, Basic Information, the Arena and the Character's Personality and Experience part. The perks of being a new character!], why in the hell are they acting as if they're already trying to counter her?

I'm up against seven characters, that have appeared in thousands of comics, so I'd need 10 pages to prove a consistency, but it's common sense that nobody actually fights this way, much less IMMEDIATELY as the fight starts.

Hyperion vibrated once, against a specific attack that he has studied, and now he's the Flash?
Loki ocasionally phases through objects and has used his intangibility less than a dozen times throught his entire 50 years history, but now goes into that state immediately? Why does he not shapeshift into a bird? Why does he not ready himself to attack physically? Why does he not...etc.
Apocalypse instantly teleports away so that he can't be detected [survival of the fittest indeed!] and starts some sort of telepathic scan, just because he read Ozymandias mind once when he was standing next to him? Are we inventing abilities now?

They also have to at least try to attack at some point - and their own defenses/states of vibrating/phased/mist stand in the way.

Speaking of which, and this is a considerably ridiculous part...

This entire strategy is based on the exact situation Grail excels at - ambush.

It's literally the tactic she roflstomped the Justice League with - she teleported from a distance, in that case locking to Flash's frequency and teleporting in his mouth [yes, she can do that]:

(please log in to view the image)(please log in to view the image)

...and then she savagely went to town on all of them.

I also posted the scene where she locks in and teleports behind Steve Trevor. Imagine her applying this tactic, with intention to massacre her opponents.

Or she could just jump them, and literally tell Motherbox to send them in another dimension, which is something not even Superman resisted when he was sent to Apokolips[see my previous post].

It gets even weirder when people randomly start teleporting away [Apocalypse], fly to the sky [Hyperion] or just stand there in the middle of the battlefield, waiting to be attacked [the rest]. They're just...statues scanning whatever they can, when Grail is not even the type to hide, and the mother box offers her cloaking/telepathy protection/teleportation.

This is like purposely making it easier for her.


You might've noticed that I didn't insist too much on speed in this thread, except in my last post.

But make no mistake, in the 'full capacity' forum rules, they wouldn't even see her coming. Imagine a highly-skilled teleporter with a cut-it-all axe and one-shotting Omega Beams that she can bend at her will coupled with kryptonian++ level fighting speed [Wonder Woman in her non-amped state ~ Supergirl, who for another reference besides the one in my previous post is capable of this:],

[Btw, a slight correct to my previous reply - Diana said that Grail is physically superior to her AFTER she had already fought her [and got stomped], not before, obviously.]

It's a very important point to remember, because this fight is 1 vs 7 [scattered and statuesque as they are] but make no mistake, they wouldn't be able to know what the f is going on as they're getting sliced/vaporized.

The numbers also flatter my adversary, considering half of the other team don't even enter the low-herald category. I know celey tried everybody do something "uhh...Dracula goes mist, and Attuma, like, totally smiles as he gets ready to have his ass plowed", but let's be serious here.

In short:

- can one-shot anybody here.
- is used to ambushing teams that are far superior to this one.
- is used to dancing around multiple adversaries far more competent and faster than anybody here [see her dancing around the JL with a baby in hand]
- has a motherbox, which is basically mini-omnipotence, which can protect, teleport and do basically anything Grail tells her to.

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“Perhaps this is the ultimate freedom. The freedom to leave.”

Old Post Jul 14th, 2017 12:46 AM
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Yawning Void

Gender: Unspecified
Location: Nidavellir

Hype being an arrogant prick does not make him stupid all of a sudden. Philo can paint that picture all he wants, but it still doesn't discount his feats.

He's murdered countless superheroes on many earths, from small timers to heavy hitters. Age of Heroes3
Here's a visual. Exiles44

He's knocked out the Blue Marvel in their first go around who in my earlier scan has likened his punch to Sentry level. Age of Heroes3

How did he achieve such things? By fighting tactically.
Instead of simply plowing through sentinels, he takes them all out the smart and easy way. Exiles39

Or learning from his mistakes. Exiles64

What does Hyperion hurting his hand on an individual who is as tough as they come durabilitywise or him hurting himself with his flash vision have to do with Grail winning against this team? How does that help exactly? Are you saying that Hype cannot at all hurt Grail(laughable)? What you fail to remember is Hype is just a part of the oncoming tide she has to face.
And the part about him vibrating… What has Grail done on panel to counter that ability? Though Hype has only used it 2x on panel and against one opponent, you can't just hand wave it away because you don't like it. It's a feat and considering he's had only a handful of on panel appearances, it's most definitely not out of the question.

Again with feat sharing. This time it's even more blatant. First you try to attribute DS's beams to Grail's, now you attribute a totally different character's lightning attack to her beam. I mean come on… Aside from the obvious explanation of "ionization through electricity", now you want her beams to do what Thor's lightning is capable of? Hell his lightning has done stupid shiet like heal, reforge Mjolnir, cauterize wounds, weld metal, teleport, etc..

Next you have her ob doing a wide beam? Lol that's not a wide beam. That's some form of explosive feedback hitting the background or something after it has passed through the fodder. Wide beam? Your scan has a narrow beams for christ's sakes. You are reaching here my friend.

Instead of falsely attributing feats, show me what she has done with characters going mistform or something even close to it. You are fake news!!

What did I say about Attuma? He's basically my fodder. Fodder who has the strength and weaponry to hurt powerful individuals like Hulk and Namor when given the chance. Chances he will have when Grail is knee deep in waves of attacks from 6 other individuals.

Norman's shields are there not to stop Grail. They are there to slow her down. To take away attention from the others. This is a group of 7 powerful individuals which include a few heavy hitters. Do you not get why I showed their defensive capabilities first? The more you have to deal with, the more susceptible you are to being overwhelmed. It's simple mathematics.

So Doom… Where does you lower showings put Doom's defenses on average? Lol. Hard to lowball against Beyonder, Galactus, and Thanos w/PG I reckon.
And on the subject of Thanos, your scans of him fighting the heroes mean absolutely what? It's not at all similar to the attack that Doom faced. You keep showing scans that try to discredit the Cabal without properly explaining what and what..
Doom faced down a wrathful blast from a Thanos who was close to losing his divinity. Feel free judges to reexamine the scan.

When nothing seems to stick, you resort to feat sharing as per usual.
Grail is not DS. Therefore DS's beams are not viable for Grail's. That is not how it works here let alone a freaking battlezone. It's the same reason Jane's feat are not Thor's, Hal's are not Kyle's, DS's are not Lexseid's, Clark's are not Kara's, and so on, and so forth.
Now even if DS is the same throughout DC, doesn't that mean Grail's beams can be stopped by the likes of Raker
Supes hv
Orion's shields
and can be outright tanked at times. There goes your unstoppable beams.

The problem with your no-limits claim regarding Loki's intangibility is that you have shown nothing that can counter them. I'm not even saying it's unstoppable, but you have shown zero, zilch, nada, nothing, none…. That's partly the reason why you're resorting to feat sharing so often.
Now you're even using the Destroyer's own feats as a feat for her? In fact in your rush to use other characters' feats, you have shown the judges more capabilities that Loki has at his disposal. He not only can teleport himself and his teammates, he can also make them intangible. Serious misstep there I think.

And again with this feat sharing. Orion using mbox for phasing is not Grail using mbox for phasing. It just isn't. What's even worse is that's preboot Orion attempting to phase. Are they even the same? You tell me.

With your warped logic, then even with mbox Grail's mind is susceptible to mind whammies.

And yet again on one hand you are using pre 52 mbox as a feat for phasing(and other utilities) and on the other using N52 mbox as a feat to protect her mind. Make up your mind. Which is it? And all the while Grail is nowhere in any of those scans. As far as I know, boom tubing is her current knowledge of mbox utility. You are all over the place.
Don't even get me started on the irony. You had a preemptive statement in your first post in order to undercut the possible feats I would use for my characters and yet you're using this one off attempt by pre52 Orion(a failed attempt if I may add) as a viable feat for Grail in a forum setting?

Your one and only viable feat to protect her mind is her somewhat unclear showing of resisting the lasso.
Sadly the lasso trying to compel her to tell the truth is not Loki giving mental suggestions, false images, elaborate illusions. I'm going easy on you here. This is just to slow her down and get her distracted. In a fight where it's one on seven, the slightest distraction on the one can be fatal. Absolutely and unequivocally fatal…

1. Now what if Loki ads more wrinkles? What happens when he is being a little extra mean?

Like making multiple soft copies of himself. AvengtheOrigin

Copies against Surtur. Thor353

Or even meaner with matter manipulation like beetles burrowing through her flesh. ThorFirstThund2

Or slow her down even further by manipulating the environment whether organic or non-living inanimate objects. JIM88

An industrial complex should have plenty to be manipulated. ThorFirstThund2

What if he just flat out binds her? Then her mobility advantage is down the drain me thinks.

Effortlessly binds Mandarin, Rskull, and Wizard. WCAveng55

Binds a sorceress(Morwen). ASMv2 62

Freezes the air around Thor. Thor432

Binds a troll in stone. Thor313

Binds Rogue. X-MenAnn9

2. What happens when Doom get in on it with his Crimson bands of Cyttorak and other binding techniques?

Against Dr. Strange.

Binds Wiccan. AvengChildrnCrusde5

Binds Iron Man. MightyAveng9

What does she do when she's bound tightly and now at the mercy of these butchers?

What can Apoc do to take advantage of these situations?

Hurt Young Thor with eyebeams. UncnnyAveng#6
Again Young Thor is on the receiving end of a powerful blow. UncnnyAveng#6
Headbutts Yoing Thor that sends shockwaves for miles. UncannyAveng#6

Full molecular control of his body allows him to impale Prime Eternal Ikaris. New Eternals ApocNow

Now compound all that with Hyperion's strength and flash vision, Patriot's repulsors, Attuma's blasting or whacking her with his spear, Dracula calling down lightning. She has no shields to protect her. And we know damn well that no one believes her durability is beyond 4 or 5 of these guys combined let alone all.


Old Post Jul 15th, 2017 12:42 AM
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"The devil made me do it"

Gender: Male
Location: Void

Reminder: Judges, please PM your decision to darksaint and not post it here directly. Thanks.


“Perhaps this is the ultimate freedom. The freedom to leave.”

Old Post Jul 15th, 2017 07:18 AM
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Yawning Void

Gender: Unspecified
Location: Nidavellir

Space is limited. Not going to waste time on Wondy's bracers.

You can harp on DS's beams being equal to hers all you want, but that doesn't fly here. If this is the case then Masterson can summon a galaxy sized storm like Jane, PG can bench virtual earth weight, Guy can blast a hole through Krona, Kid Flash is as fast as Wally …

One such egregious use of feat sharing is his constant showing of mbox. Here's a perfect example. He believes it will protect Grail from Loki's mind tricks. I've already shown pre52 mbox giving little help to Orion when Max messes with his mind.
Here Victor a living mbox himself is not immune to illusions and suggestions.

And all this feat transference hinges on one scene where baby Grail may or may not even remember what transpired based on her mother's statement.
And why is that even impressive? They were humans with metal sticks, shot from behind as they were walking away.

Suddenly she can replicate a feat she may not even remember and has never voluntarily replicated ever to be an avenue for a win. A win against a group of powered individuals that have these feats and counters.

Apoc speed and reflexes agains QS(has raced radiowaves).
Evading Ikaris eyebeams point blank with full body molecular manip.
And he can teleport himself and others with ease as seen in previous scans.

Doom himself can port. IndstrctblHulk7
Take out the Hulk with a blast.

Loki has moved faster than thought. JIM85&88

Cast spells at the speed of thought. Avng1

Speed of thought sometimes trumps light. Ultimates2 #4

Loki evades a transmute blast by shapeshifting into multiple insects. ThorGodSize

Teleport others. Thor606

Teleports Thor as a battle tactic. ThorGodSize

Again while disguised as Wanda. MightyAveng21

King Hype a legit speedster who is able to manhandle two Hyperions. Exiles65
One of those Hypes has moved within nanoseconds.

The problem with Philo's claims is that he is creating an environment in which he is Grail(figures) and will use her powers the way he sees fit, while limiting the Cabal by citing CIP/CIS. As he pointed out in his first post, CIP is involved. Yet he would lead you to believe that Grail will pluck out her opponents via boomtube and send them to Apklips or teleport behind them mid battle. He failed to explain that she's never once used the Apok thing as a tactic since she didn't even perform said feats in his scans. And Grail scanning for Trevor then porting behind from an undisclosed location and in an undisclosed amount of time in hopes of performing her ritual is now a viable battle tactic?

My opponent thinks he's demonstrated how "ridiculously overpowered" Grail . What he's really done is show how ridiculously overpowered Grail is in his mind's eye.

He thinks Grail is so far beyond the likes of these 7. He thinks she is too strong, too powerful and untouchable.

But before we delve more deeply, let me point out a key info in her handling of the league.
She was prepped. It doesn’t matter if you have a gl, a Wondy, a Shazam. We know prep has laid low all kinds of teams. Context matters.
That's why she looked so good initially and the league seemed unprepared and holding back.

So here she's battling 7 villains who would not hesitate in murdering her to bits.
Is she untouchable when fighting multiple individuals? No. Is she downright overpowering? No.

Gets taken by surprise in battle by opponents holding back.

Kalibak catches her and seems to overpower her briefly

Scott outquicks her.

Gets caged by surprise. My guys who can bind her have feats that can keep her bound tightly preventing her from using her weapons…

In Philo's scan with her evading the league, she has a freaking baby! You think the Cabal will have any compunction for the baby's safety. They are not going to treat her with lid gloves here. Lol that scan doesn't work for you.

Without a baby she get overwhelmed by two characters. I have 7 with all kinds of powers.


Old Post Jul 15th, 2017 01:04 PM
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Yawning Void

Gender: Unspecified
Location: Nidavellir

So now we've come to this. He says I have a controller even though I've already acknowledged that this is a forum fight in my second post. Yet he's still dwelling on my first post as if that is the only way this fight goes. It is just but one scenario in which Grail will ultimately end up getting murdered.

What I've continued to show are their actual on-panel feats that may lead to those types of scenarios. Feats that belong to my team. While he on the other hand is a purveyor of feats that don't even belong to his horse. He talks of common sense. This has nothing to do with common sense. It has to do with forum rules and standards. He has to resort to this type of false debating due to the relatively sparse showings of his character. It is a strength yet more of a weakness currently inherent to her.

Now this bit with basic knowledge. We know we are going to fight a tough opponent. We will know more when Loki peers into her mind and lets the team know what she is all about. I've already shown scans of him doing so and communicating his thoughts to others.

And if for some reason Grail is not slowed down and taken out by Loki's mind tricks, tactical teleportation, shields galore, matter manip, invisibility, intangibility, powerful bindings, multiple blows and blasts from all angles, maybe on Ovoid mind transfer will take her out. Surely she has no counter for that. stick out tongue

quote: (post)
Originally posted by ODG
He first uses it in FF10 and transfers into Reed's body:

Far from a one-time only power, Doom again makes use of the Ovoid Mind Transfer to save his life, recounting it in FF287:

And if using it twice doesn't convince you that Doom still maintains this ability, he uses it again to transfer into Zarrko's body in FF407:

And if you really still think he wouldn't use such a power in present comics, he used the Ovoid Mind Transfer again in FF 507 to take over Sue's body, then Johnny's body, then Thing's body even while being assaulted. Even Thing's iron will isn't enough to stop Doom:

Oh phuk this.. Game over the end.


Old Post Jul 15th, 2017 01:04 PM
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Yawning Void

Gender: Unspecified
Location: Nidavellir

Went back to my 9400 version


Old Post Jul 15th, 2017 01:05 PM
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Senior Member

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As celey was unfortunately past the deadline, judges,please disregard his last two posts. IOW, the one immediately preceding this one AND the one pertaining to the Ovoid Mind Transfer.

However, as an olive branch, and to avoid what Taylor Swift would call 'Bad Blood', I am allowing the one immediately preceding the Ovoid Mind Transfer post.

So the post which begins with a reference to Wondys bracers? Take that into consideration.


Old Post Jul 17th, 2017 02:23 PM
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I made a note to read through this and send a ruling to DS. But feel free to bug me again if, say, the weekend rolls around and I've forgotten.


Old Post Jul 19th, 2017 01:54 AM
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|Quantum Observer|

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Location: Mars, 1985

Sorry for my tardiness -- I haven't been on in a few days as I am finalizing a bunch of shit for my impending move.

Anywho, I'll read through all of this tonight(sans celey's late/inadmissible posts) and will try to get a ruling submitted to DS by tomorrow.



"I am tired of Earth. These people.
I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives."

Old Post Jul 19th, 2017 09:06 PM
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We got a winner yet?

Old Post Jul 22nd, 2017 05:26 AM
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I have three rulings so far:
Leo, DS, Galan.

I am awaiting two more:
Digi, Delta.

What do people want - wait until a majority is reach, or all five are in?


Old Post Jul 23rd, 2017 08:49 AM
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Senior Member

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Both combatants are inferior TO I, THE LORDOFBATTLEZONES, so the outcome is IRRELEVANT!!!!


Old Post Jul 23rd, 2017 01:51 PM
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Location: Planning to take over the WORLD!

my vote would be to post the winner as soon as enough votes are in to decide it. that way the others don't have to waste time trying to get theirs in. /shrug


Old Post Jul 23rd, 2017 02:28 PM
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Wow! The votes aren't in yet?


Old Post Jul 23rd, 2017 04:46 PM
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