1). Forum fight - Grail vs the Cabal (Classic Doom, King Hyperion, Classic Loki, Dracula, Apocalypse, Norman Osborn and Attuma)
2). Opening + 4 posts (each post, even if one after another, counts as a separate post)
3). Galan, Scot, Darksaint, Delta, Leo (maybe Digi/Id, if one pulls out and they have time)
4). Loser reps every post abhi/carver make for a month, like he really means it, not ironically.
5). Location: an abandoned industrial complex.
- Initial post will be PMd to Darksaint until this Friday
- All the other posts will be posted until next friday
A darkness falls across the land. Grail has come to Marvel.
As you read this debate, I'd like to state what is one of the most important factors in this thread - it's a forum fight.
We're not in control of the characters as we would be in a battlezone and CIS (Character Inhibited Power) is still in effect.
It will be relevant as you read on, since I'm up against half a dozen opponents, each with a myriad of abilities, and celey will try to cherry pick what thinks suits him best, without regard to which ones they actually use the large, large majority of fights.
As you judge what will and will not be used, I'd like to point out that it's not a case of 'will Superman/Flash etc. use his speed?'. Those characters are very limited in terms of how many abilities they have, so Superman using something as basic as dodging/moving fast is not the same as character X in this thread using ability #27.
Here's Wonder Woman's fight against Artemis with bracers [Artemis is even taunting her on why she doesn't take them off to show her true power] [Diana is overwhelmed physically but manages to tactically beat her]:
[Wonder Woman #23]
The bracelets are probably the most impressive defensive weapon in comics. I will go more in depth if needed, but everybody here is familiar with them, and I don't want to turn this into respect thread, unless needed.
Incidently, this last scan shows exactly how this entire fight would go.
The Omega Beams are so fast Flash couldn't outrun them and resorted to trickery, while Superman was caught and one-shotted [see the above scan]. None of my opponents would even take a breath before they're dead.
Grail weilds an axe, made to cut gods, and which casually one-shots a construct made by the combined might of Hal [yes, this is Hal [a.k.a. God] under Geoff Johns, mind you], John, Kilowog and other lanterns]:
No Win Situation
First off… Thanks Darktaint for hosting. Thanks judges for your time. And even though we usually don't see eye to eye, good luck Phildo.
Let's make this simple shall we. We are immediately dumped in an abandoned industrial complex as per agreed upon setting. Industrial complexes are usually huge and filled with all kinds of obstacles and visual obstructions.
My opponent is Grail. I won't waste time on her for now since you guys have probably read Phil's take and his extolling of her virtues.
1. Loki immediately phases nearby and is invisible. Mind phuck Grail with suggestions and illusions.
2. Doom raises max shields/defense. He is in view of Patriot,and Attuma. Will attack as soon as Grail is in view.
3. Hyperion vibrates his molecules and flies up a few hundred feet above the complex. He starts scanning the whole area for her and his teammates through his variety of super senses, ready to pounce at a moments notice.
4. Apocalypse immediately teleports at an inconspicuous spot away from open view. Starts peering into her mind.
5. Iron Patriot raises shields. Will attack as soon Grail is in view. Scans for Grail. He is in view of Doom and Attuma.
6. Attuma stands ready with weapon in hand and a big grin on his face. Will attack as soon Grail is in view. He is in view of Doom and Patriot.
7. Dracula immediately is in mist form. He is in the vicinity of Doom and Attuma. Surveying the upcoming action just waiting for his turn.
So what is Phil's Grail going to do? Go full bore and blitz her way to victory? Highly doubt that would work in an abandoned industrial complex with all the nooks and crannies. Definitely wouldn't work against the whole team especially one that includes teleporters(Loki, Apoc, Doom) and has a member who is fast enough to vibrate his molecules((Hype).
Maybe she'll go for broke and send out her powerful omega beams. Again, industrial complex with nooks and crannies, and all kinds of visual obstructions.
Or maybe she will go blitz mode and use her beams in tandem? But alas, same issue with having to take out the whole team as fast as possible in such a place and each member's abilities to counter.
Judging by the way my cabal begins, she already lost.. Loki would have found her in the industrial complex already bombarding her mind with illusions and suggestions that would slow her down.. Apoc would have sensed her mind and would immediately teleport for a surprise attack. King Hype would have tracked her down from above and would blind side her out of nowhere.
If she somehow gets in contact with the cabal fairly quickly(doubtful), more than likely she would have spotted Attuma, Patriot with shields, and Doom with all his defenses at max. The moment she makes her move, she may take down one maybe two of the three, but not all. Highly doubtful with Doom's defenses and what he can bring to bear offensively, Attuma's strength, and Patriot's repulsors all day. And then there's Dracula in mist form. How can she even touch him? Not to mention the three waiting in the wings away from her view. All three can reach her at moment's notice. Loki and Apoc teleporting to blindside her, and Hype with the speed and long range attack(flash vision).
Now what if she starts defensive? She's phuukked. She would now be deep in Loki's trickery and the team reaches her in waves and attacking from all angles. She would be extremely vulnerable with her addled mind.
No Win Situation
My theme is keep it simple. So lets do that shal
Some things about Philo's opening post.
1. CIS? Sure thing. Not a problem for me and just muddies up the water even more for him considering there really aren't much options for Grail to win here. If she had any chance(0.00000001%), it would be taking the entirety of the Cabal out asap with a very specific plan. In actuality all I did was paint a very clear picture of what would happen 999,999 out of 1,000,000 because all I used from the Cabal are what they are known to do… As ya'll shall soon see.
2. Philo sure did show a lot of Wondy feats. Not sure why eulogizing extensively about Wondy's feats is much help to Grail since Grail did not perform any of Wondy's feats…. Maybe I should start eulogizing about Pre-Retcon Beyonder's and Thanos's w/IG feats considering a prominent member of the Cabal here boasts defenses that has saved him more than once from these multiversal/universal beings.
And about Grail being faster or stronger, feats over statements. There is no definitive proof of these thoughts. If we just rely on statements, then J'onn is stronger and more powerful than Superman.
3. Even more egregious is Philo's use of DS's beams as a feat for Grail. What?! Hitting Superman and chasing Flash therefore Grail's beams are as fast. Err.. Last I heard feat sharing doesn't fly here. But lets humor him for a sec. How fast were those beams going? Pretty sure u won't find that anywhere in that comic.
There's also that bit of issue where the League at that time were sort of Rookie-ish. http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-8Vri11pXh.../s1600/p1_1.jpg
Hell they didn't even have a team name. http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Lbc2dtDpJ...s1600/p6_19.jpg
It's also doubtful she can direct her beams like DS. In Philo's own scan, she explained how her mother had told her she giggled as the men screamed. It was more an involuntary reaction if anything. How can she voluntarily replicate something that she probably did not even remember until her mother told her about it. Again with this feat sharing with Darkseid.
Now to more important things.
Remember my little opening scenario? Not at all far fetched. He usually likes to hang back and let others do the dirty work.
A) Loki would teleport/phase.. Play with her mind with all kinds of visions, illusions, and suggestions. Hellooo.. God of Mischief here.
So all in all not so far fetched from my scenario. He says cherry picking? I think not. These powers I presented are what they are known for and their calling cards.
With a team like this, there are many scenarios that can go down that easily puts them on the winning side. While she on the other hand has an infinitesimal window of opportunity to get a win.
I haven't even begun to show what they're capable of. I have the luxury of fodder. She does not.
It's an uphill battle. Plain and simple.
Part 1 - Vibrators, misty edgelords and canon fodder
For those of you that have read King Hyperion, you know he's almost the most arrogant prick on the field [and with Doom, that's saying something], so to say that he'd become an unengaging floating vibrator is hilarious.
But let's leave that aside for a moment and treat the actual argument.
It's something that he has employed specifically only for her attack.
Whatever it's trying to be passed on as, clearly it's not. Maybe he's traumatized after Blink teleported sand inside of him, and he's doing it just in case she appears?
Since we're on the topic of Hyperion, it's quite important to understand that..
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Shocking! - Opponent saying random stuff, leaving out context and wasting space
"Here, Wonder Woman is shot by guns"
Those are literal love bullets, shot by Eros [the God of Love, think Cupidon]. They're not an attack meant to destroy. It's an abstract concept being shot at her. Diana had a 'hole' in her chest for Hades to 'fill'[yes, this sounds worse than it is]
They're made by Hephaestus [you know...the GOD of Weapons, who even made Diana's LASSO] to make the ones it's aimed at fall in love.
The bracelets were't destroyed, you can see them intact in fact right here, where Diana uses the same gun to shoot and make Hades [you know...the skyfather/lord of Hell] love himself as he looks in the mirror:
Wonder Woman's sword(s) and other items are irrelevant to what we're talking about. But since we're posting unrelated things: Diana's sword/weapons haven't been constant - she can create them herself, she can lend them from Hephaestus, she can get them from Olympus etc. So they're not all the same.
"Wonder Woman [God of War and without bracelets] saying that Grail is above her in speed and at least as strong should be ignored, because some statements in comics are false, so obviously this is false, too"
To hell with anything people say in comics, am I right? No? Ok.
I'll let the judges decide, who to believe - Wonder Woman talking about her own adversary, who humiliated her moments after she made that statement, or Celey calling her a liar?!
There's limited space in this debate already, so I won't address every attempt at crowding the discussion with this kind of stuff.
Suffice to say, Grail's superiority over Wonder Woman was shown when she covered tens of feet before she could react, choking her out with one hand while she can do nothing about her killing other people, and Diana having to be saved by Hal/Jessica, with Diana waking up from unconsciousness on the car only at the end of Grail's fight with them.
Grail could control her Omega Beams as a baby with ridiculous precision, striking multiple targets one after another. But she can't as an adult, because it was obviously involuntary...precision. As a baby. Right.
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I'll let common sense win out here.
Grail, Darkseid's daughter, whose Omega Beams are depicted literally the same way Darkseid's:
....are slower, because they haven't raced the Flash yet, obviously.
Again, common sense. It's like saying Supergirl's heat vision moves slower than Superman's, unless it has a specific showing as his. Yes, Superman's is more powerful, and he has shown greater versatility [same as Darkseid/Grail, and judges, just to be clear, I'm not arguing that ANY of Darkseid's power feats are transferable to Grail] but it's asinine to randomly say that one is slower than the other, when it's literally the same thing.
For reference, the Omega Beams have been depicted fast enough in Final Crisis to match the Flashes trying their best:
...so them being fast enough for Flash to struggle against them is quite consistent.
Grail was controlling Darkseid with the Anti-Life Equation, so every move of his was what she was telling him to do. That was their connection, and why he stumbled when she did - he was her puppet.
That is completely unrelated to his physical durability - Grail's Omega Beams going through Darkseid [after having already passed through Myrina, the assasin version of Wonder Woman] is their feat entirely. The fact that this action also removed the Anti-Life entity doesn't change the fact that it first had to bypass his immense physical durability, which it's clearly shown to do so as it passes right through him.
Barda's weapon deflecting the beams in a single panel is irrelevant since Grail in a no PIS environment can control and direct them to any target.
The beams one-shot Wonder Woman level opponents [Superwoman, Myrina], shattered ridiculous defensive weapons [bracelets] and pass through bonifide Justice League no-selling Darkseid.
Nobody here has a chance.
Now let's move on to my favorite part...my opponent's tactics!
He literally placed everybody there like statues, waiting for me to strike, and desperately scanning for Grail's presence.
You know the problem with that?
She doesn't hide from them.
Grail has used the boom tube to track and teleport behind opponents:
Celey, thanks for taking the time to do this and judges, thank you for taking the time to read through it all.
My final thoughts
I think I've illustrated just how ridiculously overpowered Grail truly is and that she truly lived up to her Darkseid/Diana fusion + new Gods tech that I've mentioned at the beginning.
But let's talk about how my opponent chose to approach the match. First of all, I have yet to see any kind of feasible argumentation why they're doing the actions that celey is arguing they are.
It feels like he thinks that he has the game controller in hand, personality be damned.
Look at this description:
Everybody is specifically positioned behind somebody, who is behind some other guy, but then that other guy teleports to a specific place, while the other dude vibrates, and the other dude just stands there with his shields to the max, and the other dude floats around as a mist.
Ignoring the fact that each of these were countered, but just in principle...what is this, Dungeons & Dragons?
They don't even know what Grail can do [forum rules - see The Opponent, Basic Information, the Arena and the Character's Personality and Experience part. The perks of being a new character!], why in the hell are they acting as if they're already trying to counter her?
I'm up against seven characters, that have appeared in thousands of comics, so I'd need 10 pages to prove a consistency, but it's common sense that nobody actually fights this way, much less IMMEDIATELY as the fight starts.
Hyperion vibrated once, against a specific attack that he has studied, and now he's the Flash?
Loki ocasionally phases through objects and has used his intangibility less than a dozen times throught his entire 50 years history, but now goes into that state immediately? Why does he not shapeshift into a bird? Why does he not ready himself to attack physically? Why does he not...etc.
Apocalypse instantly teleports away so that he can't be detected [survival of the fittest indeed!] and starts some sort of telepathic scan, just because he read Ozymandias mind once when he was standing next to him? Are we inventing abilities now?
They also have to at least try to attack at some point - and their own defenses/states of vibrating/phased/mist stand in the way.
Speaking of which, and this is a considerably ridiculous part...
This entire strategy is based on the exact situation Grail excels at - ambush.
It's literally the tactic she roflstomped the Justice League with - she teleported from a distance, in that case locking to Flash's frequency and teleporting in his mouth [yes, she can do that]:
...and then she savagely went to town on all of them.
I also posted the scene where she locks in and teleports behind Steve Trevor. Imagine her applying this tactic, with intention to massacre her opponents.
Or she could just jump them, and literally tell Motherbox to send them in another dimension, which is something not even Superman resisted when he was sent to Apokolips[see my previous post].
It gets even weirder when people randomly start teleporting away [Apocalypse], fly to the sky [Hyperion] or just stand there in the middle of the battlefield, waiting to be attacked [the rest]. They're just...statues scanning whatever they can, when Grail is not even the type to hide, and the mother box offers her cloaking/telepathy protection/teleportation.
This is like purposely making it easier for her.
You might've noticed that I didn't insist too much on speed in this thread, except in my last post.
But make no mistake, in the 'full capacity' forum rules, they wouldn't even see her coming. Imagine a highly-skilled teleporter with a cut-it-all axe and one-shotting Omega Beams that she can bend at her will coupled with kryptonian++ level fighting speed [Wonder Woman in her non-amped state ~ Supergirl, who for another reference besides the one in my previous post is capable of this: https://www.turboimagehost.com/p/35...05-012.jpg.html],
[Btw, a slight correct to my previous reply - Diana said that Grail is physically superior to her AFTER she had already fought her [and got stomped], not before, obviously.]
It's a very important point to remember, because this fight is 1 vs 7 [scattered and statuesque as they are] but make no mistake, they wouldn't be able to know what the f is going on as they're getting sliced/vaporized.
The numbers also flatter my adversary, considering half of the other team don't even enter the low-herald category. I know celey tried everybody do something "uhh...Dracula goes mist, and Attuma, like, totally smiles as he gets ready to have his ass plowed", but let's be serious here.
- can one-shot anybody here.
- is used to ambushing teams that are far superior to this one.
- is used to dancing around multiple adversaries far more competent and faster than anybody here [see her dancing around the JL with a baby in hand]
- has a motherbox, which is basically mini-omnipotence, which can protect, teleport and do basically anything Grail tells her to.
What does Hyperion hurting his hand on an individual who is as tough as they come durabilitywise or him hurting himself with his flash vision have to do with Grail winning against this team? How does that help exactly? Are you saying that Hype cannot at all hurt Grail(laughable)? What you fail to remember is Hype is just a part of the oncoming tide she has to face.
And the part about him vibrating… What has Grail done on panel to counter that ability? Though Hype has only used it 2x on panel and against one opponent, you can't just hand wave it away because you don't like it. It's a feat and considering he's had only a handful of on panel appearances, it's most definitely not out of the question.
Again with feat sharing. This time it's even more blatant. First you try to attribute DS's beams to Grail's, now you attribute a totally different character's lightning attack to her beam. I mean come on… Aside from the obvious explanation of "ionization through electricity", now you want her beams to do what Thor's lightning is capable of? Hell his lightning has done stupid shiet like heal, reforge Mjolnir, cauterize wounds, weld metal, teleport, etc..
Next you have her ob doing a wide beam? Lol that's not a wide beam. That's some form of explosive feedback hitting the background or something after it has passed through the fodder. Wide beam? Your scan has a narrow beams for christ's sakes. You are reaching here my friend.
Instead of falsely attributing feats, show me what she has done with characters going mistform or something even close to it. You are fake news!!
What did I say about Attuma? He's basically my fodder. Fodder who has the strength and weaponry to hurt powerful individuals like Hulk and Namor when given the chance. Chances he will have when Grail is knee deep in waves of attacks from 6 other individuals.
Norman's shields are there not to stop Grail. They are there to slow her down. To take away attention from the others. This is a group of 7 powerful individuals which include a few heavy hitters. Do you not get why I showed their defensive capabilities first? The more you have to deal with, the more susceptible you are to being overwhelmed. It's simple mathematics.
So Doom… Where does you lower showings put Doom's defenses on average? Lol. Hard to lowball against Beyonder, Galactus, and Thanos w/PG I reckon.
And on the subject of Thanos, your scans of him fighting the heroes mean absolutely what? It's not at all similar to the attack that Doom faced. You keep showing scans that try to discredit the Cabal without properly explaining what and what..
Doom faced down a wrathful blast from a Thanos who was close to losing his divinity. Feel free judges to reexamine the scan.
The problem with your no-limits claim regarding Loki's intangibility is that you have shown nothing that can counter them. I'm not even saying it's unstoppable, but you have shown zero, zilch, nada, nothing, none…. That's partly the reason why you're resorting to feat sharing so often.
Now you're even using the Destroyer's own feats as a feat for her? In fact in your rush to use other characters' feats, you have shown the judges more capabilities that Loki has at his disposal. He not only can teleport himself and his teammates, he can also make them intangible. Serious misstep there I think.
And again with this feat sharing. Orion using mbox for phasing is not Grail using mbox for phasing. It just isn't. What's even worse is that's preboot Orion attempting to phase. Are they even the same? You tell me.
And yet again on one hand you are using pre 52 mbox as a feat for phasing(and other utilities) and on the other using N52 mbox as a feat to protect her mind. Make up your mind. Which is it? And all the while Grail is nowhere in any of those scans. As far as I know, boom tubing is her current knowledge of mbox utility. You are all over the place.
Don't even get me started on the irony. You had a preemptive statement in your first post in order to undercut the possible feats I would use for my characters and yet you're using this one off attempt by pre52 Orion(a failed attempt if I may add) as a viable feat for Grail in a forum setting?
Your one and only viable feat to protect her mind is her somewhat unclear showing of resisting the lasso.
Sadly the lasso trying to compel her to tell the truth is not Loki giving mental suggestions, false images, elaborate illusions. I'm going easy on you here. This is just to slow her down and get her distracted. In a fight where it's one on seven, the slightest distraction on the one can be fatal. Absolutely and unequivocally fatal…
1. Now what if Loki ads more wrinkles? What happens when he is being a little extra mean?
Now compound all that with Hyperion's strength and flash vision, Patriot's repulsors, Attuma's blasting or whacking her with his spear, Dracula calling down lightning. She has no shields to protect her. And we know damn well that no one believes her durability is beyond 4 or 5 of these guys combined let alone all.
Space is limited. Not going to waste time on Wondy's bracers.
You can harp on DS's beams being equal to hers all you want, but that doesn't fly here. If this is the case then Masterson can summon a galaxy sized storm like Jane, PG can bench virtual earth weight, Guy can blast a hole through Krona, Kid Flash is as fast as Wally …
And all this feat transference hinges on one scene where baby Grail may or may not even remember what transpired based on her mother's statement.
And why is that even impressive? They were humans with metal sticks, shot from behind as they were walking away. https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-QzvlMJN8...s1600/04_09.jpg
Suddenly she can replicate a feat she may not even remember and has never voluntarily replicated ever to be an avenue for a win. A win against a group of powered individuals that have these feats and counters.
The problem with Philo's claims is that he is creating an environment in which he is Grail(figures) and will use her powers the way he sees fit, while limiting the Cabal by citing CIP/CIS. As he pointed out in his first post, CIP is involved. Yet he would lead you to believe that Grail will pluck out her opponents via boomtube and send them to Apklips or teleport behind them mid battle. He failed to explain that she's never once used the Apok thing as a tactic since she didn't even perform said feats in his scans. And Grail scanning for Trevor then porting behind from an undisclosed location and in an undisclosed amount of time in hopes of performing her ritual is now a viable battle tactic? http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-UzyF3JXNr.../s1600/5_11.jpg
My opponent thinks he's demonstrated how "ridiculously overpowered" Grail . What he's really done is show how ridiculously overpowered Grail is in his mind's eye.
He thinks Grail is so far beyond the likes of these 7. He thinks she is too strong, too powerful and untouchable.
But before we delve more deeply, let me point out a key info in her handling of the league.
She was prepped. It doesn’t matter if you have a gl, a Wondy, a Shazam. We know prep has laid low all kinds of teams. Context matters. http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-s6oV6cwYH...4_25%2Bcopy.jpg
That's why she looked so good initially and the league seemed unprepared and holding back.
So here she's battling 7 villains who would not hesitate in murdering her to bits.
Is she untouchable when fighting multiple individuals? No. Is she downright overpowering? No.
In Philo's scan with her evading the league, she has a freaking baby! You think the Cabal will have any compunction for the baby's safety. They are not going to treat her with lid gloves here. Lol that scan doesn't work for you.
So now we've come to this. He says I have a controller even though I've already acknowledged that this is a forum fight in my second post. Yet he's still dwelling on my first post as if that is the only way this fight goes. It is just but one scenario in which Grail will ultimately end up getting murdered.
What I've continued to show are their actual on-panel feats that may lead to those types of scenarios. Feats that belong to my team. While he on the other hand is a purveyor of feats that don't even belong to his horse. He talks of common sense. This has nothing to do with common sense. It has to do with forum rules and standards. He has to resort to this type of false debating due to the relatively sparse showings of his character. It is a strength yet more of a weakness currently inherent to her.
Now this bit with basic knowledge. We know we are going to fight a tough opponent. We will know more when Loki peers into her mind and lets the team know what she is all about. I've already shown scans of him doing so and communicating his thoughts to others.
And if for some reason Grail is not slowed down and taken out by Loki's mind tricks, tactical teleportation, shields galore, matter manip, invisibility, intangibility, powerful bindings, multiple blows and blasts from all angles, maybe on Ovoid mind transfer will take her out. Surely she has no counter for that.
Sorry for my tardiness -- I haven't been on in a few days as I am finalizing a bunch of shit for my impending move.
Anywho, I'll read through all of this tonight(sans celey's late/inadmissible posts) and will try to get a ruling submitted to DS by tomorrow.
"A great tactician creates plans.
A good tactician recognizes the soundness of a plan presented to him.
A fair tactician must see the plan succeed before offering approval.
Those with no tactical ability at all may never understand or accept the plan.
And when a mind is too deficient in understanding, the resulting gap is often filled with resentment."