Obi-Wan Kenobi (ROTS) vs Darth Maul (SoD)

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DarthAnt66
Canon only. 15 meters starting distance. Standard mindset.

Rockydonovang
Aight

Rockydonovang
Note:
Canon only also means no starwars.com for the pursposes of this debate

Ursumeles
Rocky vs Ant.

Rockydonovang
Lets start coz I'm impatient as fck

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Lets start coz I'm impatient as fck
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLW3CFZBdXI&t=0m3s

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLW3CFZBdXI&t=0m3s
Course you're using my quote

thesithmaster
Ah, canon only.
Leaning Maul for a 7-8/10 majority. Because in Canon, nothing hints at more than a decent growth from TCW to ROTS Kenobi. Kenobi also loses many of his Legends feats while Maul keeps his best ones save for the Sith Hunters/Death Sentence.
Of course, this is ROTS Kenobi. Maul splits with Ben Kenobi or takes a 5,5/10 majority.

Rockydonovang
Part 1:
Lets first establish that TCW Kenobi, as in Kenobi almost a year before ROTS, has showcased superiority to TCW Maul under generally unfavorable circumstances. While Maul had a hindrance with his legs and grew a bit from tcw, Kenobi had far longer to grow and will be fighting here without circumstantial disadvantages.

First lets look at their Season 4 duel. Maul was pre-prime and likely rusty from being out of practice. However Kenobi, also pre-prime, was physically wrecked. He had been Ko'd twice, and severely beaten beforehand:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgUfVYZxTjg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8VsLu1BfhM

Additionaly Kenobi had an emotional hindrance from realizing it was truly Maul:
https://youtu.be/n8PEGa3Wq50?t=13m30s

Despite both being hinered Kenobi effectively beat Maul twice in the first minuite:
https://youtu.be/DlJiphrbLyg?t=1m
https://youtu.be/DlJiphrbLyg?t=1m7s
(maul took several seonds to start getting up from both hits)
The only thing stopping Kenobi would be the presence of ventress and oppress. A presence he doesn't have to worry about here.

Maul was able to land a succession of hits on Kenobi, however two things should be noted:
1. Said hits were an act of desperation from Kenobi slamming down Maul's blade and hence leaving Maul vulnerable here:
https://youtu.be/DlJiphrbLyg?t=1m16s
Had Maul not kicked out, the fight would be over
2. Kenobi ended up getting up almost instantly
3. The legs were more devestating then they would be here, as this is before Maul got new legs. Legs which are less powerful.

It would be misleading to point to maul winning after his use of dun moch, because dun moch was only successfully exploited when Kenobi was physically and mentally wrecked. Maul failed to use it against Kenobi on florrum when Kneobi wasn't compromised so we should assume it wouldn't be a factor here.

On Florrum, Kenobi all but confirmed his superiority to Maul.

In their 1 v 1 fighting defensively, Kenobi ended it landing a kick that disorientated Maul for 7 seconds(fortunately Kenobi didn't press the opening as he attacked Oppress instead):
https://youtu.be/aE_CVWMWK74?t=1m57s
Note, Maul only picks his head up here:
https://youtu.be/aE_CVWMWK74?t=2m3s

Finally, Kenobi, making use of a secondary style managed to land blows on maul and briefly drive him back while making quick work of Oppress:
https://youtu.be/aE_CVWMWK74

Kenobi is Maul's clear superior with the blade.

Now to address the notion of Maul ragdolling Kenobi. Aside from Kenobi being pre-prime, Maul has never actually defeated Kenobi via ragdolling aside from when he was visibly injured in on Mandalore. On Florrum maul tk'd Kenobi as he was distracted with Oppress. Even counting that as valid, this use of TK failed to actually do anything to Kenobi. For Kenobi blasting Maul, I'd say it's logical Maul was in a state of rage given he'd just seen his brother's arm cut off and was hence desperate to save him. Even if he wasn't, Maul was only allowed the opportunity charge up and then to blast Kenobi as he had been given space from Kenobi thanks to the presence of Oppress. Earlier outside the cave, and on the Turtle Tanker Maul never had a chance attempt to tk on Kenobi when engaged on a 1 v 1 duel as he is here.

Since a pre-ROTS Kenobi's edge as a swordsman has repeatedly given him an advantage in situations applicable here, and Maul's supposed force edge hasn't, ROTS Kenobi would logically fare better in a fight.

thesithmaster
I can't even...

Darth Thor
Will be an Awesome fight one way or the other. The kind of fight we were expecting to get in Rebels.

I think if Kenobi just fights fully defensively throughout then he'll come out on top.

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by thesithmaster
I can't even...
Then for the sake of everyone on kmc, don't

thesithmaster
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Then for the sake of everyone on kmc, don't

Well, if I countered it, I would be getting into a debate where people have strong biases and will do their best to demolish the reputation of the other combatant, and I would be countering trash. I'm not interested in dealing with such manufactured misinformation that will remain even if it's debunked.

ares834
Kenobi. No question really.

UCanShootMyNova
Maul.

darthbane77
Kenobi. Maul has never once bested Kenobi without added circumstances contributing to the battle. Kenobi is the obvious superior.

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by thesithmaster
Well, if I countered it, I would be getting into a debate where people have strong biases and will do their best to demolish the reputation of the other combatant, and I would be countering trash. I'm not interested in dealing with such manufactured misinformation that will remain even if it's debunked.
Good thing I already gave you a rather simple solution:
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Then don't

Now settle down so the real debaters can settle this.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by darthbane77
Kenobi. Maul has never once bested Kenobi without added circumstances contributing to the battle. Kenobi is the obvious superior.


It could be argued the only time Kenobi ever best Maul without circumstance was in Rebels. But given this is the ROTS/SOD time period, that fight's not applicable.

TenebrousWay
Most likely Kenobi in a very good fight.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Part 1:
Lets first establish that TCW Kenobi, as in Kenobi almost a year before ROTS, has showcased superiority to TCW Maul under generally unfavorable circumstances. While Maul had a hindrance with his legs and grew a bit from tcw, Kenobi had far longer to grow and will be fighting here without circumstantial disadvantages.

First lets look at their Season 4 duel. Maul was pre-prime and likely rusty from being out of practice. However Kenobi, also pre-prime, was physically wrecked. He had been Ko'd twice, and severely beaten beforehand:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgUfVYZxTjg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8VsLu1BfhM

Additionaly Kenobi had an emotional hindrance from realizing it was truly Maul:
https://youtu.be/n8PEGa3Wq50?t=13m30s

Despite both being hinered Kenobi effectively beat Maul twice in the first minuite:
https://youtu.be/DlJiphrbLyg?t=1m
https://youtu.be/DlJiphrbLyg?t=1m7s
(maul took several seonds to start getting up from both hits)
The only thing stopping Kenobi would be the presence of ventress and oppress. A presence he doesn't have to worry about here.

Maul was able to land a succession of hits on Kenobi, however two things should be noted:
1. Said hits were an act of desperation from Kenobi slamming down Maul's blade and hence leaving Maul vulnerable here:
https://youtu.be/DlJiphrbLyg?t=1m16s
Had Maul not kicked out, the fight would be over
2. Kenobi ended up getting up almost instantly
3. The legs were more devestating then they would be here, as this is before Maul got new legs. Legs which are less powerful.

It would be misleading to point to maul winning after his use of dun moch, because dun moch was only successfully exploited when Kenobi was physically and mentally wrecked. Maul failed to use it against Kenobi on florrum when Kneobi wasn't compromised so we should assume it wouldn't be a factor here.

On Florrum, Kenobi all but confirmed his superiority to Maul.

In their 1 v 1 fighting defensively, Kenobi ended it landing a kick that disorientated Maul for 7 seconds(fortunately Kenobi didn't press the opening as he attacked Oppress instead):
https://youtu.be/aE_CVWMWK74?t=1m57s
Note, Maul only picks his head up here:
https://youtu.be/aE_CVWMWK74?t=2m3s

Finally, Kenobi, making use of a secondary style managed to land blows on maul and briefly drive him back while making quick work of Oppress:
https://youtu.be/aE_CVWMWK74

Kenobi is Maul's clear superior with the blade.

Now to address the notion of Maul ragdolling Kenobi. Aside from Kenobi being pre-prime, Maul has never actually defeated Kenobi via ragdolling aside from when he was visibly injured in on Mandalore. On Florrum maul tk'd Kenobi as he was distracted with Oppress. Even counting that as valid, this use of TK failed to actually do anything to Kenobi. For Kenobi blasting Maul, I'd say it's logical Maul was in a state of rage given he'd just seen his brother's arm cut off and was hence desperate to save him. Even if he wasn't, Maul was only allowed the opportunity charge up and then to blast Kenobi as he had been given space from Kenobi thanks to the presence of Oppress. Earlier outside the cave, and on the Turtle Tanker Maul never had a chance attempt to tk on Kenobi when engaged on a 1 v 1 duel as he is here.

Since a pre-ROTS Kenobi's edge as a swordsman has repeatedly given him an advantage in situations applicable here, and Maul's supposed force edge hasn't, ROTS Kenobi would logically fare better in a fight.


1) Let's not forget Peak TCW Maul was post all these fights with his smaller more human robotic legs as per Filoni.

2) S4 Maul hasn't duelled in 10+ years. That fight was more a contest of what Kenobi and Maul can do when not in Peak condition, and generally showing how fights between these 2 are capable of going either way.

3) Florrum 1st fight- Standing still for 7 seconds is not being defeated. First Kenobi created distance with that kick anyway, so it's not like all he had to do was stab. He'd have to close the distance first. Up until that point that was a very evenly fought Saber fight which went on for a while against a Properly Focused Kenobi as per Filoni.

4) Florrum 2nd fight- This was an Even More Focused Kenobi, after Adi's death, per Filoni. So definitely not the regular mind set the OP is asking for.
But just to get an idea of the Peak Performance and Environmental advantages Kenobi had here, remember Dooku vs the weaker Savage and Ventress?
Still Maul himself never went down. Not once.

5) TK- Do you have a Canon feat from Kenobi which matches pulling the Jedi craft down?

|King Joker|
Probably Kenobi.

carthage
Kenobi in a stomp

Rockydonovang
@darththor
BTW, I'm specifically debating ant here so firguve me If I don't get drawn into an enlogated debate here.
1. I actually acknowledged the legs
2. I acknowledged this as well so I'm not sure why you're asking me to not forget it. I also explained in detail why I find kenobi had the edge given Kenobi's hits did more.
3.I never said Maul was neccesarily at Kenobi's mercy there. But given that the kick inflicted enough pain on maul he needed a full 6 seconds(i was wrong to say 7) to fully recover, I feel it's more than fair to assert Maul would have been at a disadvantageous situation if Kenobi pressed an offensive(as we see from their fight in the cave, kenobi absolutely can do this) which is enough for to me consider Kenobi's hit significant. Given that Kenobi landed the only significant hit of their inconclusive bout, I'd say Kenobi had the edge.

4.Don't use "even more". You know full well the first 'more focused" was because Kenobi wasn't kod twice and tortured this time around. You're correct that Kenobi gained more focus after Galia's death, but the assertion this wasn't Kenobi focusing himself and was externally based is still baseless and seems unlikely given feloni's statement that Adi Galia did not empower kenobi but rather kenobi's own personality traits(being a hero, kindness) were what Kenobi's focus spoke to. This is canon only, shadow conspiracy isn't even a thing. If we tapped into legends I can easily ignore the enviromental advatages which are outright contradicted by the episode while simultaneously debunking your assertion Kenobi was amped circumstantially by pointing you to the numerous times Kenobi has focused himself at will.

5. Don't need to as Maul has failed to tk Kenobi in the circumstances outlined by this op despite displaying a clear willingness to when circumstances give him an opportunity to.

thesithmaster
Kenobi, in TCW, never beat Maul. At all.
Maul, however, beat Kenobi when both were hindered.
Kenobi stomping is absolutely unfounded.
And LOL at me not being a real debater, especially coming from Kbro.

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by thesithmaster
Kenobi, in TCW, never beat Maul. At all.
Maul, however, beat Kenobi when both were hindered.
Kenobi stomping is absolutely unfounded.
And LOL at me not being a real debater, especially coming from Kbro.
When your response to several in depth paragraphs is 4 attempts at sentences, that's prolly a solid indication you're not cut out for this.

Anyway there's no need to keep going in circles.

You've identified a very real problem:
Originally posted by thesithmaster
I can't even...

Originally posted by thesithmaster
debate
And I've given you a rather simple solution:

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Then don't

Don't worry, I gotcha back man smile

thesithmaster
I do not want to debate this issue right now. That does not mean I can't debate this issue.
If you lack the ability to grasp this, then I think you need some help.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
@darththor
BTW, I'm specifically debating ant here so firguve me If I don't get drawn into an enlogated debate here.




I know. Was just giving a summary of the my main rebuttals. After that I know it will go around in circles.

You seem to be in denial over Kenobi's mental clarity though. Filoni clearly stated Kenobi was "properly focused" at the start of the Florrum fight, then "even more focused" after Adi died. Hence it's pretty clear that 2 on 1 was a Super Peak performance, and definitely not Kenobi's regular mind set.

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by Darth Thor
I know. Was just giving a summary of the my main rebuttals. After that I know it will go around in circles.

You seem to be in denial over Kenobi's mental clarity though. Filoni clearly stated Kenobi was "properly focused" at the start of the Florrum fight, then "even more focused" after Adi died. Hence it's pretty clear that 2 on 1 was a Super Peak performance, and definitely not Kenobi's regular mind set.
Cool

properly focused because he wasn't properly focused in season 4(duh).

I also addressed the second part of your argument, please quote and counter what I said specifically because I went into depth why that doesn't mean what you think it means

DarthAnt66
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-IvV8thrO4

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Lets first establish that TCW Kenobi, as in Kenobi almost a year before ROTS, has showcased superiority to TCW Maul under generally unfavorable circumstances.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLQj0v5h6mY&t=4m28s




Here's the first point I'm going to address.

The fact Obi-Wan had more time to grow between The Clone Wars and Revenge of the Sith is irrelevant. It's irrelevant because all characters grow at different speeds and under different circumstances, with their potential generally being the best way to gauge said speed. Not only that, but the growth of a character is not linear. Characters, especially prodigies, generally grow rapidly in short-bursts and then have a duration of remaining stagnant.

So, we have Mother Talzin, an individual immensely powerful and knowledgeable in the dark side and rare magics - so much so that Sidious considered her as candidate number one as his Sith apprentice. But then he saw Maul, just as a young child, and he took Maul instead, which speaks volumes for Maul's Force potential. Now, here's the interesting part: Maul, as per Dave Filoni, was trained by Sidious in "all the machinations the Sith had been able to survive." Further, Sam Witwer, sitting next to Filoni with the latter in agreement, said, "he's got to be good in just about everything" and that Palpatine had "a lot of investment there" in Maul. In other interviews, Filoni continues to emphasize the point, restating that "he was a well-trained apprentice and that he would start to do the things he was trained to do: to build armies, to deceive people, to create a power base for himself."

What this all means is that, unlike the Legends continuity, Maul, as a legitimate Sith apprentice, was formally trained to be Sidious' successor. In Canon, it is outright stated that Sidious "values the Sith Rule of Two above all else," which is demonstrated in Sidious' conversation with Maul in The Lawless. As Dave Filoni talks about here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qKTRP9s4sw), just because a Sith master trains their apprentice to surpass them doesn't mean they actually want them to, nor does that mean Sidious wouldn't try to kill Maul when the day came that the two of them fought, but nonetheless he trained Maul so that Maul could fit the bill for a legitimate Dark Lord of the Sith. I'd be silly if I didn't also note that at least three different sources have noted that Maul is one of the most dangerous and highly trained Sith in the history of the Order. This speaks volumes for both his potential and the training he has had as of The Phantom Menace, given that on their talk with each other on Coruscant, Sidious suggests that Maul's training is complete and it's time to move to the real deal.

Frankly, I could take this to far greater levels, but for the moment, I want all this information to be focused in the context of power growth. The assertion that Obi-Wan grew more than Maul since their first fight because there is a bigger gap in time is patently baseless because Maul's potential is simply so much greater and more defined than Obi-Wan's. Maul is someone who might have one day challenged and defeated Sidious. Obi-Wan's never getting there - not even close. Thus, it is completely reasonable to say, with additional backing as I'll prove later in this post, that Maul grew more between his resurrection and the death of Mother Talzin (perhaps over an entire year time-span) than Obi-Wan did between Maul's resurrection and his fight with Anakin.



Now, this is just crazy to me. I really can't wrap my head around this argument. "Likely rusty?"

Maul had not fought a lightsaber duel for over ten years.

Lightsaber combat, nor the Force, is not something you can stop for a decade and then just think you're going to be "rusty." You're going to be hell of a lot more than rusty, and that should be obvious. Also, Dave Filoni has discussed that George Lucas is of the view that when Force-users don't use the Force for long periods of time, their connection with the Force begins to fade away, as demonstrated by Maul struggling to initially lift his lightsaber when Savage Opress gives it back to him. Yes, Mother Talzin brought removed the madness within Maul and yes, Maul presumably has dark-side magicks within him, but within Canon, there's little indication he is restored back to his original power right off the gate. Everything points to the contrary, rather, especially with that lightsaber scene.

Overall, it's going to take Maul time to get back to his original power - it's going to take time for Maul to get back into the groove with lightsaber fighting.

As of this fight, which takes place the same episode he is "reborn," he's absolutely not back to where he was, let alone where is he is in Son of Dathomir.

Most importantly, that's demonstrated in how he fights, which we'll get to now.



These are the first lightsaber strikes Maul is dishing out for a decade. Worst yet, he's in burdensome legs and a terrible environment to fight in. Now, that might not seem like a big deal, but it rather is - so much so that Dave Filoni pointed it out and said he changed Maul's legs to new ones so that he would be able to perform acrobatic feats again (as we see against Sidious). After all Maul is a powerful, energetic, and fast-paced duelist - many ways embodying the prequel trilogy era of lightsaber combat. Here, he has little-to-no room for maneuverability, especially due to his clunky legs. If you watch Maul fight before he manages to kick Obi-Wan twice, he is almost entirely stationary to a ridiclous degree, which is in stark contrast to his fighting style in The Phantom Menace. More interestingly, in the two instances you cited, it has Maul attempting to move - the first instance by moving around Obi-Wan, the second instance running toward him. This visibly demonstrates Maul's current weakness with the legs. He's unable to maneuver and move around and with Obi-Wan comfortably and effectively, and as a result, is almost defeated.

However, after these two instances, Maul learns from his failures, adapts to his new legs, and manages to land two devastating kicks against Obi-Wan. I'd wager Maul could have killed him between the two kicks if he wanted to, but just as Obi-Wan wasn't going in for the kill, Maul isn't either. Maul wants to capture Obi-Wan, not kill him. This is explicitly stated by him in The Lawless. As we will see when I tear apart the second fight, weaknesses still exist with these big legs. Such flaws, however, are notably absent in his fight against Sidious. If you click here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwktH2gGnPk&t=1m16s) and here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwktH2gGnPk&t=1m41s) you can see levels of mobility that are far greater than what he originally displayed against Obi-Wan in the cited performance.

For the record, Obi-Wan being physically bruised does not equate to these conditions in any way. Obi-Wan is famous for taking a beating. He does not display any visibly injuries that would handicap his performance going into the fight, so I have no reason to believe any exist besides the possibility that some of his hair might have got in his eyes at certain parts of the fight.

DarthAnt66
Continued.



When debating, I'd advise not to address everything in your opener, since chances are you're wasting time covering topics the opponent has no interest in even bringing up.



This fight is interesting because looking at it passively and looking at it closely will seem a lot different.

Throughout the entire fight, there is consistently three different ways Obi-Wan seizes the advantage versus Maul.

1) What I've dubbed as "The Kick," is, as the name suggests, kicking Maul in the groin. Due to his new legs, Maul's groin area is noticeably longer and larger. This has already been a notable weak point for Maul back in The Phantom Menace, but now, the weakness is exaggerated even further. While Maul has adapted to some elements of his new legs, he has yet to come up with a solution to this. As a result, Obi-Wan, who's demonstrated throughout his fights with everyone that he's exceptional at landing kicks, is able to successfully kick Maul. This weaknesses, however, is resolved by the time of The Lawless. Sidious kicks Maul in the same spot twice during their fight. In the first time, Maul is able to recover fast enough to dodge a quick-moving strike by Sidious aimed specifically at removing his arm (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwktH2gGnPk&t=1m40s), but killing him, so I see no reason to assume this attack is not at least a resemblance of Sidious' true speed, or at the very least, is not faster than whatever Obi-Wan can strike. In the second instance where Maul is kicked, he is able to transition into a back-flip and then defend himself against a devastating assault by Sidious that would have otherwise torn him to pieces. Again, note that, in particularly this instance, Sidious would be traveling much faster than Obi-Wan would (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwktH2gGnPk&t=3m18s). Thus, Maul has progressed forward from this particular performance against Obi-Wan. If Obi-Wan tries this technique again, it will not work, since even Sidious himself was unable to end the fight this way.

2) In the particular kick instance where Maul was disorientated for a duration of time, it appears Obi-Wan kicked his face. Additionally, Obi-Wan was in a leveraged position and Maul's taller than he would normally be due to the legs (insert high-ground joke here), allowing him to strike Maul's head where he might have otherwise hit his chest which would have then made him vulnerable to being cut in half. Perhaps most importantly, if Obi-Wan would have pressed the attack against Maul in this stance, I find it unlikely that Maul would have remained like he was. Maul has handled feeling the slashes of a thousand Jedi striking him and being cut in two. His pain tolerance is arguably the greatest in all of Canon, or at least high among the list. In a situation where Obi-Wan would be about to kill him, Maul would likely summon the necessary strength to deflect it and continue the fight. Since Obi-Wan was not, Maul allowed himself a moment to channel his rage and recover since he was not in particular danger. Also, your claim that he was out of the game for seven seconds is baseless. Maul is visibly only out of the game for about two. We do not know what happened the other five seconds. When it cuts back to him, you see him staring at Obi-Wan. To me, this suggests that while he had yet to fully recovered, he has recovered to the point that he would have absolutely been able to defend himself if Obi-Wan pressed the attack. It's also worth mentioning that since even Sidious didn't land a blow to Maul's head with a kick, I find it unlikely Obi-Wan can replicate such a blow again under neutral conditions and without sensing a fellow Jedi's death, which would obviously compel to get Maul off of him and go check things out, immediately before it happened. This particular rebuttal is continued later on when we get to the "ragdolling" section, so stay tuned.

Also, kicking is not synonymous with penetrating lightsaber defenses. Just because you could kick someone doesn't mean you could have slashed them there instead.

3) If you look at how Maul fights against Obi-Wan when Savage is with him, something is immediately noticeable. Whenever Maul presses the attack, Obi-Wan is generally able to go off that momentum and then kick and/or attack Savage. Thus, Maul is limited with his options, as demonstrated by the fact that he is, again, almost completely stationary. Maul is not in a situation where he could just launch an all-out assault against Obi-Wan when Savage is in the position where he is. That would be, demonstrably, putting his brother at risk. Overall, too, we see Maul in a situation that is extremely narrow and presents him no room to perform the acrobatic assaults that is essential to his form of lightsaber combat. Maul's just completely disadvantaged here. Ultimately, the fact Savage is fighting alongside Maul does not help, but rather hinders, Maul's possibilities.



There's really no ground to stand on for that. This particular fight we are having is essentially Maul vs Obi-Wan with all the conditions that let Obi-Wan do what he did gone: Savage Opress is absent so Maul doesn't have to be stationary, there's no dead Jedi that may allow Obi-Wan uncanny focus (Kenobi might not be empowered by the deaths of others, but that doesn't mean it can't increase his focus, especially considering these other circumstances), Maul has new legs so he's going to be able to handle the kicks and will be able to move about far more freely, and the environment would not be disadvantageous to Maul so, again, he's not so constrained and restricted. Obi-Wan, unlike Maul, is able to fight in such constrained spaces due to the benefits of a defensive style with minimal movement.

Not only that, but Maul, now in his Son of Dathomir incarnation, is now going to be even more skilled and even more powerful than last time around!

https://media.tenor.com/images/e782fc9e2f3c95c69ebfbab93ca672b7/tenor.gif

DarthAnt66
Continued.



For Obi-Wan to actually beat Darth Maul, he's going to need to dish out attacks of his own. He's not just going to be capable of defending himself - he's not going to tire out Maul given Maul's amazing willpower, stamina, endurance, etc. However, the issue with that is that, as Nick Gillard has stated, aggression is Obi-Wan's weaknesses. We see an exaggerated form of that when he loses it against Maul in their first battle in The Clone Wars, but that's also demonstrated in his other fights against Maul and Dooku.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcXaicGvcvA&t=1m03s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcXaicGvcvA&t=1m21s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYT3ctPuVRw&t=1m45s

Here are three examples, versus Dooku, where Obi-Wan attacking has left him open for counterattack.

Now, against Maul and Savage, Maul subdues Obi-Wan twice with the Force. Let's take a look at these moments:

1) http://i.imgur.com/4CRgDaw.png (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aE_CVWMWK74&t=4m27s)

2) http://i.imgur.com/QRmHtmN.png (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aE_CVWMWK74&t=4m46s)

In both instances, Obi-Wan is going in to attack Maul, demonstrating this weaknesses in Obi-Wan's fighting style.

Also, when Maul was headbutted by Obi-Wan and temporarily disoriented, if Obi-Wan went to attack, it is certainly possible Maul would throw him around with the Force there, too.

Especially in this version of Darth Maul, who is even more powerful than when we last saw in The Clone Wars, with his incredible potential to be a major reason, I imagine.

---

Now, let's go back to that instance on Mandalore for a second: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjXkUp2_XFs&t=1m40s.

If you look through all of these instances, you will see it almost heard of that a character telekinetically grapples a prepared opponent:



In Canon, telekinesis is done almost exclusively when there is an opening in the opponent's defenses.

I say almost, because this is one of the extremely rare moments when someone outright dominates another opponent.

Yes, Obi-Wan is injured. I really doubt severely since all that happened to him was a fall and some heat that you can feel at a 4D roller coaster, but nonetheless injured.

Yet, I do not excuse that as justification for Maul's handling of Obi-Wan, especially considering the ease at which Maul did it.

While Maul likely cannot replicate this straight out of the gate in this fight, it further shows that when Obi-Wan shows a weakness, which he will based on his record, Maul will thrash him.



So, let's recap. Throughout his fights against Obi-Wan, Maul has constantly been placed in disadvantaged situations. In their first fight, Maul hasn't fought with a lightsaber in over a decade, has new legs that completely handicap his mobility, and is stuck in an incredibly narrow environment. In the first stage of their second fight, Maul visibly pushed Obi-Wan back at the beginning. Obi-Wan was able to kick Maul's head and temporarily disorientate him, but as covered thoroughly, the opportunity to not only do so again, but also then defeat Maul due to said kick, is next-to-none. In the second stage, Maul was at a multitude of disadvantages, such as not being able to launch an assault since every time he did it would hurt Savage, continued restricted mobility due to both his legs and the environment, and having a notable weakness against kicks that Obi-Wan may have exploited this time around but has been patched up for this fight, as shown against Sidious.

Speaking of Sidious, Maul's performance against Sidious at the end is amazing. I'd like to remind all that the novel stating Maul could only perceive Sidious in a blur is Legends, not Canon. Yes, Sidious was superior, but Maul was capable of contending with him for a healthy twenty-four seconds, in which strikes were being dished out perhaps the fastest seen in Star Wars besides the Battle of the Heroes in Revenge of the Sith. Also, Maul was able to even temporarily gain the upper-hand against Sidious: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7hBZNsPnyg&t=4m13s. In a brilliant move, Maul attacks downward, forcing Sidious to jump up. As he descends down, Maul kicks him, forcing Sidious back a considerable distance. Sidious is shown frowning in distaste afterwards.

Ultimately, this performance represents the pinnacle of what Maul can do (and no, Force rage "amps" don't exist in Canon). And frankly, it's not looking good for Obi-Wan. Even if Obi-Wan can survive Maul's devastating assault that took Sidious a respectable amount of time to dismantle, he's going to need to then launch an assault that's capable of tearing apart what Sidious could not even tear apart until a blade-lock, while also worrying about Maul capitalizing on the momentary weakness and using the Force.

I know there's some old quotes around talking about how Soresu just delays the inevitable. Well, in this situation, it's doing just that. thumb up

PS: The fact a Canon book, personally endorsed by Pablo Hidalgo, Leland Chee, and the Story Group, states Maul is a better duelist than Dooku, which essentially means he's better than Obi-Wan too, cannot be completely overlooked. While I hate using anything definitive, the fact such a quote exists, and an author of the book said it's likely referring to skill, must be considered as additional reasoning for Maul's victory over Obi-Wan. And since I know that you do take such things as authoritative, I'd be interested in your reasoning to not just ignore it, but then continue to say Obi-Wan is winning so definitively that Maul fighting his Revenge of the Sith incarnation wouldn't even "be a match."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ud3iDCZ_MA&t=0m12s

Rockydonovang
Holy fck, why is that post so fcking long

Rockydonovang
There's is fckin bs for me to debunk drowning in a sea of fckin stentences and words anf fckin paragraphs

Rockydonovang
Part 1:
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Here's the first point I'm going to address.

The fact Obi-Wan had more time to grow between The Clone Wars and Revenge of the Sith is irrelevant. It's irrelevant because all characters grow at different speeds and under different circumstances, with their potential generally being the best way to gauge said speed. Not only that, but the growth of a character is not linear. Characters, especially prodigies, generally grow rapidly in short-bursts and then have a duration of remaining stagnant.

So, we have Mother Talzin, an individual immensely powerful and knowledgeable in the dark side and rare magics - so much so that Sidious considered her as candidate number one as his Sith apprentice. But then he saw Maul, just as a young child, and he took Maul instead, which speaks volumes for Maul's Force potential. Now, here's the interesting part: Maul, as per Dave Filoni, was trained by Sidious in "all the machinations the Sith had been able to survive." Further, Sam Witwer, sitting next to Filoni with the latter in agreement, said, "he's got to be good in just about everything" and that Palpatine had "a lot of investment there" in Maul. In other interviews, Filoni continues to emphasize the point, restating that "he was a well-trained apprentice and that he would start to do the things he was trained to do: to build armies, to deceive people, to create a power base for himself."

What this all means is that, unlike the Legends continuity, Maul, as a legitimate Sith apprentice, was formally trained to be Sidious' successor. In Canon, it is outright stated that Sidious "values the Sith Rule of Two above all else," which is demonstrated in Sidious' conversation with Maul in The Lawless. As Dave Filoni talks about here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qKTRP9s4sw), just because a Sith master trains their apprentice to surpass them doesn't mean they actually want them to, nor does that mean Sidious wouldn't try to kill Maul when the day came that the two of them fought, but nonetheless he trained Maul so that Maul could fit the bill for a legitimate Dark Lord of the Sith. I'd be silly if I didn't also note that at least three different sources have noted that Maul is one of the most dangerous and highly trained Sith in the history of the Order. This speaks volumes for both his potential and the training he has had as of The Phantom Menace, given that on their talk with each other on Coruscant, Sidious suggests that Maul's training is complete and it's time to move to the real deal.

Frankly, I could take this to far greater levels, but for the moment, I want all this information to be focused in the context of power growth. The assertion that Obi-Wan grew more than Maul since their first fight because there is a bigger gap in time is patently baseless because Maul's potential is simply so much greater and more defined than Obi-Wan's. Maul is someone who might have one day challenged and defeated Sidious. Obi-Wan's never getting there - not even close. Thus, it is completely reasonable to say, with additional backing as I'll prove later in this post, that Maul grew more between his resurrection and the death of Mother Talzin (perhaps over an entire year time-span) than Obi-Wan did between Maul's resurrection and his fight with Anakin.


All of the above might be relevant if TCW Maul still had TPM Maul's potential. Fortunately though, Kenobi did a little something to make Maul's growth slow down a bit:
https://youtu.be/D7w4x3S2lag?t=4m47s
And unfortunately, Leland Chee can't bail you out of this one.
Here's the quote you've been misusing:
https://twitter.com/HolocronKeeper/status/833437960934662145
The answer never ever says anything about Maul having the same potential, but mentioned his power. Strength in the force, logically, would be referring to actualized power here, at least as chee interpreted it given he gave an answer regarding actualized power, not potential.

Maul didn't diminish in terms of actualized power, but his potential was crippled per Lucas's statement about limbs and power.

Frankly, I'm wondering how you were planning to reconcile Maul being sids-tier potential wise to him having his growth eclipsed by Ben Kenobi's in the 15 years afterwards.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Part 1:

All of the above might be relevant if TCW Maul still had TPM Maul's potential. Fortunately though, Kenobi did a little something to make Maul's growth slow down a bit:
https://youtu.be/D7w4x3S2lag?t=4m47s
And unfortunately, Leland Chee can't bail you out of this one.
Here's the quote you've been misusing:
https://twitter.com/HolocronKeeper/status/833437960934662145
The answer never ever says anything about Maul having the same potential, but mentioned his power. Strength in the force, logically, would be referring to actualized power here, at least as chee interpreted it given he gave an answer regarding actualized power, not potential.

Frankly, I'm wondering how you were planning to reconcile Maul being sids-tier potential wise to him having his growth eclipsed by Ben Kenobi's in the 15 years afterwards.

You're misunderstanding. If you scroll through the rest of the feed, the question is asked why Vader seemed to lose so much power, in which Chee responded by essentially saying that aspect of Canon is still undefined at this point, but did dismiss Lucas' quotes as meaning much of anything. Force power has nothing to do with losing limbs or not. If they did, larger characters would generally always be stronger than smaller ones, due to more cells meaning more midichlorians. Thus, potential is specifically the amount of midichlorians per cell, which is exactly what Qui-Gon measures in Anakin, and that has not changed for Maul. Thus, his potential should be the same.

You completely skipped most of my post, by the way. I'd advise you not to rush.

Rockydonovang
Yea Ant, never in the comments below does chee ever say what Lucas said is wrong. What he says is that you have to address whether Lucas's comments are contradicted in response to the questioner asking about Lucas's assertion Vader lost a lot of "power" not potential.

When asked about Lucas's statement about potential directly, Chee psoted the equivalent of a idk because he didn't know how to quantify things like force potential with a metric.

And yes maul had superior training, maul also spent a decade plus on a trash planet while Kenobi grew as a jedi

So ant please stop interrupting my counter

DarthAnt66
I never said he said Lucas was wrong, I said he dismissed Lucas' quotes as being relevant to this discussion. For the record, again, you failed to respond to even my newest post and the issue with you thinking limbs mean anything. Responding to one sentence in a number of sentences does not mean all of them have been covered. Go back and respond again. But first you have to respond to everything else. Take your time and relax.

Trocity
Dunno tbh.

Rockydonovang
Christ ant, Lucas's comments are not relevant assuming there's a contradiction, anyway I've got your second point down

DarthAnt66
I can't wait to see it all. Also, don't post them one at a time. That's awfully annoying. Post it in bulk.

Rockydonovang
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Rockydonovang
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Rockydonovang
-

DarthAnt66
Well, then I'll be responding to your posts as you pump them out, so by the time you finish your last post you'll have to start with a new batch.

Or you can wait until it's all done and have some breathing room.

Rockydonovang
Part 2:
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Now, this is just crazy to me. I really can't wrap my head around this argument. "Likely rusty?"

Maul had not fought a lightsaber duel for over ten years.

Lightsaber combat, nor the Force, is not something you can stop for a decade and then just think you're going to be "rusty." You're going to be hell of a lot more than rusty, and that should be obvious. Also, Dave Filoni has discussed that George Lucas is of the view that when Force-users don't use the Force for long periods of time, their connection with the Force begins to fade away, as demonstrated by Maul struggling to initially lift his lightsaber when Savage Opress gives it back to him. Yes, Mother Talzin brought removed the madness within Maul and yes, Maul presumably has dark-side magicks within him, but within Canon, there's little indication he is restored back to his original power right off the gate. Everything points to the contrary, rather, especially with that lightsaber scene.

Overall, it's going to take Maul time to get back to his original power - it's going to take time for Maul to get back into the groove with lightsaber fighting.

As of this fight, which takes place the same episode he is "reborn," he's absolutely not back to where he was, let alone where is he is in Son of Dathomir.

Most importantly, that's demonstrated in how he fights, which we'll get to now.
Aight, I'll take away the likely, keep you antennas on bud.

If Maul is starting at a lower point, that's going to end up lowering where SOD Maul ends up anyway, but as I've acknowledged, Maul was hindered.

Frankly though, while I've given Maul a pass in assuming he was equally hindered as Kenobi was, that's rather generous of me given that Feloni seems to give more weight to Kenobi's hindrance and situation than Maul's. When discussing the fight at detail on Star Wars Celebration, emphasis isn't given to how Maul was rusty as fck, but rather on how Kenobi was set up to lose. For one he describes the situation Kenobi is in mentally as coming across a "worst case scenario":
https://youtu.be/n8PEGa3Wq50?t=13m22s

He outright attributes Kenobi's eventual defeat here to the "space" or situation he finds himself in here:
https://youtu.be/n8PEGa3Wq50?t=13m46s

Note, this is just Feloni commenting on Kenobi's mental situation. Setting aside that he's physically in no state to fight.

On the other hand, when going into detail about the fight, Maul's rustiness isn't brought up. In fact I'm wondering if anything in canon explicitly states anything about Maul being rusty. While it's a more than reasonable assumption, that we have to assume one, while Kenobi's hindrances are explicitly emphasized tells me we should be giveng Kenobi's disadvantages more weight.

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Well, then I'll be responding to your posts as you pump them out, so by the time you finish your last post you'll have to start with a new batch.

Or you can wait until it's all done and have some breathing room.
no ant, that's not how fckin debates work
wait till I'm done and then respond

DarthAnt66
(Edited 2:56 AM ET)

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Part 2:

Aight, I'll take away the likely, keep you antennas on bud.

If Maul is starting at a lower point, that's going to end up lowering where SOD Maul ends up anyway, but as I've acknowledged, Maul was hindered.

There's no correlation between the two.



Absolutely dreadful rebuttal. "Worst case scenario" isn't referring to mental state. It's referring to fighting two Sith.

He says he's not in the right mindset because he wasn't prepared to fight them. He was prepared to fight something far weaker.

For the "space" sequence, he's saying that they "would eventually lose" anyway - his words, not mine - and thus have to leave to fight another day.

For the record, he claims Maul and Obi-Wan are stalemating each other in the start, which contradicts your notion that Obi-Wan was winning.


Filoni isn't even talking about what you think he is. He's said next to nothing on Obi-Wan's issues in the videos' you've linked.

Rockydonovang
Part 3:
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
These are the first lightsaber strikes Maul is dishing out for a decade. Worst yet, he's in burdensome legs and a terrible environment to fight in. Now, that might not seem like a big deal, but it rather is - so much so that Dave Filoni pointed it out and said he changed Maul's legs to new ones so that he would be able to perform acrobatic feats again (as we see against Sidious). After all Maul is a powerful, energetic, and fast-paced duelist - many ways embodying the prequel trilogy era of lightsaber combat. Here, he has little-to-no room for maneuverability, especially due to his clunky legs. If you watch Maul fight before he manages to kick Obi-Wan twice, he is almost entirely stationary to a ridiclous degree, which is in stark contrast to his fighting style in The Phantom Menace. More interestingly, in the two instances you cited, it has Maul attempting to move - the first instance by moving around Obi-Wan, the second instance running toward him. This visibly demonstrates Maul's current weakness with the legs. He's unable to maneuver and move around and with Obi-Wan comfortably and effectively, and as a result, is almost defeated.

However, after these two instances, Maul learns from his failures, adapts to his new legs, and manages to land two devastating kicks against Obi-Wan. I'd wager Maul could have killed him between the two kicks if he wanted to, but just as Obi-Wan wasn't going in for the kill, Maul isn't either. Maul wants to capture Obi-Wan, not kill him. This is explicitly stated by him in The Lawless. As we will see when I tear apart the second fight, weaknesses still exist with these big legs. Such flaws, however, are notably absent in his fight against Sidious. If you click here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwktH2gGnPk&t=1m16s) and here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwktH2gGnPk&t=1m41s) you can see levels of mobility that are far greater than what he originally displayed against Obi-Wan in the cited performance.

For the record, Obi-Wan being physically bruised does not equate to these conditions in any way. Obi-Wan is famous for taking a beating. He does not display any visibly injuries that would handicap his performance going into the fight, so I have no reason to believe any exist besides the possibility that some of his hair might have got in his eyes at certain parts of the fight.
1. As noted, both were hindered. However Maul getting taken out twice can't be blamed on the environment's crowded space here as Maul was able to fully extend himself and use his full range of motion(taking into consideration his impaired agility) for the duration of time said hits occurred on. In fact, arguably, the crates cushioned the blow considering Maul otherwise would have hit a harder floor.

2. While Maul had impaired agility, Kenobi was a physical wreck. Even at the start of what we of this torture session Kenobi was put through, he was clearly in no state to fight:
https://youtu.be/tgUfVYZxTjg?t=37s
Already Kenobi's heavily panting and gasping for air.
Then later we see Kenobi needing to lean on Oppress to stand up(still early into what we see):
https://youtu.be/tgUfVYZxTjg?t=44s

3.I find your assertion that Maul's hindered agility is worth noting but Kenobi not even being able to stand up on his own before going through more torture comparatively insignificant to be rather laughable.

4. That Kenobi was able to outmaneuver and avoid Maul's charges when in such bad physical shape and land multiple kicks on Maul speaks highly of Kenobi compared to Maul's inability to cope with impaired agility.

5. As you've pointed out, Maul did land two kicks. But this wasn't Maul passing up on a killing blow, as I've pointed out, this was Maul acting in desperation to prevent himself from getting bisected at the waist a second time. Note that right before the kicks, Kenobi downs Maul's blade and then swings for a perfectly free strike to Maul's waist. Maul didn't bother worrying about trying to kill Kenobi because he was too busy saving his own life. And as it is, despite Kenobi's awful physical state, Kenobi got right up(unlike maul) and would later end up driving maul back despite being physically demolished.

6.As for your claim that Maul wasn't trying to kill Kenobi, you're taking things out of context. When Maul says he never planned on killing Kenobi, that was a simpler way of saying, he never planned on killing Kenobi whenhe lured him to Mandalore. Maul makes rather obvious he fully intends on killing Kenobi during the torture session you laughably tried to dismiss as a non factor in the fight:
https://youtu.be/tgUfVYZxTjg?t=2m1s
Maul was fully intending to kill Kenobi until luring him to Mandalore (when he became aware of Kenobi's love interest). To be fair, I have no idea why you think Kenobi wasn't trying to kill Maul here given he almost bisected him.

7. While both were hindered(honselty, Kenobi, moreso), Kenobi had a clearly better performance.

8. Additionally this fight puts cold water on your assertion Maul can outlast Kenobi given how much Kenobi tanks here despite his awful physical state.

9. I should note Kenobi was "more or less stalemating" overall for the fight which becomes an indictment of how Maul performed when you consider how much of Maul eventually winning would be attributed to him unbalancing Kenobi with dun moch.

10. It's easy to look good when your opponent is toying with you so that they can have a good and enjoyable fight. As you've observed Maul is better with his post-mandalore legs. However trying to assert said boost is enough to bridge the gap between his woeful performance vs an emotionally and physically hindered Kenobi in season 4 while accounting for Kenobi having almost a year to grow is purely arbitrary from season 5 is purely arbitrary.

I'll take the direct comparison in their actual fights over your speculation over how hindered Maul was opposed to Kenobi. smile

Rockydonovang
As for your prior interruption
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
(Edited 2:56 AM ET)



There's no correlation between the two.



Absolutely dreadful rebuttal. "Worst case scenario" isn't referring to mental state. It's referring to fighting two Sith.

He says he's not in the right mindset because he wasn't prepared to fight them. He was prepared to fight something far weaker.

For the "space" sequence, he's saying that they "would eventually lose" anyway - his words, not mine - and thus have to leave to fight another day.

For the record, he claims Maul and Obi-Wan are stalemating each other in the start, which contradicts your notion that Obi-Wan was winning.


Filoni isn't even talking about what you think he is. He's said next to nothing on Obi-Wan's issues in the videos' you've linked.
1. There is considering that's Maul's starting point and where this arbitrary amount of improvement you suppose there to be would improve the rusty Maul you are discussing

2. Right, now explain why his emotional situation has suddenly improved to normal after being beaten to a pulp by his captors?

3. Addressed above, the space and them eventually losing addresses the whole fight which includes a portion rather non applicable here.

Note: I'm not countering further interuptions

JKBart
i feel sad with ant defending maul not obi

Darth Thor
The only disadvantage Filoni attributes to Kenobi in the S4 finale is not being in the right mind set. Which is frankly Kenobi's own fault and could potentially happen again in future fights.

However Filoni in the S4 IGN interview specifically praised Maul for his win over a Kenobi noting HIS major disadvantage being out of practice. No specific and major disadvantage is noted for Kenobi by Filoni in any interview.

Darth Thor
" Definitely. In my opinion he did really well for being out of business for about ten years. To come back in and take down Obi-Wan, leaping around on velociraptor legs, he did pretty good."


http://m.uk.ign.com/articles/2012/03/21/star-wars-the-clone-wars-looking-back-at-season-4

thesithmaster
Originally posted by JKBart
i feel sad with ant defending maul not obi

Well, Maul's better than Obi, so Ant is doing the right thing.

Darth Thor
Well I think Obi-Wan likely edges it out, but giving arguments for Maul as I think the arguments against him are unfair and greatly exaggerating any disparity between the 2.

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by Darth Thor
The only disadvantage Filoni attributes to Kenobi in the S4 finale is not being in the right mind set. Which is frankly Kenobi's own fault and could potentially happen again in future fights.

However Filoni in the S4 IGN interview specifically praised Maul for his win over a Kenobi noting HIS major disadvantage being out of practice. No specific and major disadvantage is noted for Kenobi by Filoni in any interview.
Whether or not it's Kenobi's fault doesn't at all make the circumstances which led to it being present here.

And there's the matter of Kenobi not even being able to stand correctly not long before their fight.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Rockydonovang


And there's the matter of Kenobi not even being able to stand correctly not long before their fight.


That's never noted as an issue by Filoni in any interview. And I doubt he'd see it as one given Kanan's final performance against the GI after being brutally tortured for days.

YousufKhan1212
Is this an informal CaV?

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by Darth Thor
That's never noted as an issue by Filoni in any interview. And I doubt he'd see it as one given Kanan's final performance against the GI after being brutally tortured for days.
1. Doesn't need to be for us to apply common sense. Much as while canon never states maul is rusty we derive that from common sense.
2. Based on what was Kanan not hindered?

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by YousufKhan1212
Is this an informal CaV?
well yea, but it seems given the length of Ant's response, it's gonna start being formal looking anyway

thesithmaster
Kanan wasn't hindered, lmao. He was amped.

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by thesithmaster
Kanan wasn't hindered, lmao. He was amped.
that had absolutely no relevance to my response to darth thor which was regarding Kanan at the start of his fight vs the GI.

Nice try though bud thumb up

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by Darth Thor
" Definitely. In my opinion he did really well for being out of business for about ten years. To come back in and take down Obi-Wan, leaping around on velociraptor legs, he did pretty good."


http://m.uk.ign.com/articles/2012/03/21/star-wars-the-clone-wars-looking-back-at-season-4
good find, but I'd say Feloni emphasizes Kenobi's hindrance more tbh. We do have confirmation though that Maul wasn't quite as good as he was as of tpm skill wise.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
1. Doesn't need to be for us to apply common sense. Much as while canon never states maul is rusty we derive that from common sense.
2. Based on what was Kanan not hindered?

1. Common sense has to be relevant to these fictional type of beings and situations though. Why didn't Filoni mention that as part of the reason for Kenobi losing? I mean in every interview he's just completely ignored that.

2. He performed better. If a Padawan can recover from a much worse ordeal and perform better, I'm sure a much shorter and much less severe ordeal shouldn't be much of an issue for a Master.

It's ultimately all down Mind Sets, which is why Filoni only brings that up.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Per Witwer Maul badly underestimated Kenobi in the fight:

https://youtu.be/n3vp15a_Bg4

However it's clear from his and Filoni's statements (and the fight itself) that Maul wasn't Kenobi's equal by this point in time. So the end result would have been th same.

Also note first going into his ROTS warrior stance (th way he used to fight) before quickly realising that's not him anymore. Makes me think more Maul probably would have had stood a decent chance against ROTS Kenobi.

Also of note is Witwer being Filoni's Padawan who is in turn Lucas's Padawan. It's clear he's had a lot of creative input into Animated Maul and likely knows all of Filoni's and Lucas's views on the character.

Personally I take Witwer's opinions over Filoni's. He just makes more sense.

nfactor1995
This debate between Kbro and Ant cannot be allowed to die

slayne
thumb up

Darth Thor
Originally posted by nfactor1995
This debate between Kbro and Ant cannot be allowed to die

thesithmaster
Originally posted by nfactor1995
This debate between Kbro and Ant cannot be allowed to die

Indeed.

Rockydonovang
Part 4:
Originally posted by DarthAnt66



This fight is interesting because looking at it passively and looking at it closely will seem a lot different.

Throughout the entire fight, there is consistently three different ways Obi-Wan seizes the advantage versus Maul.

1) What I've dubbed as "The Kick," is, as the name suggests, kicking Maul in the groin. Due to his new legs, Maul's groin area is noticeably longer and larger. This has already been a notable weak point for Maul back in The Phantom Menace, but now, the weakness is exaggerated even further. While Maul has adapted to some elements of his new legs, he has yet to come up with a solution to this. As a result, Obi-Wan, who's demonstrated throughout his fights with everyone that he's exceptional at landing kicks, is able to successfully kick Maul. This weaknesses, however, is resolved by the time of The Lawless. Sidious kicks Maul in the same spot twice during their fight. In the first time, Maul is able to recover fast enough to dodge a quick-moving strike by Sidious aimed specifically at removing his arm (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwktH2gGnPk&t=1m40s), but killing him, so I see no reason to assume this attack is not at least a resemblance of Sidious' true speed, or at the very least, is not faster than whatever Obi-Wan can strike. In the second instance where Maul is kicked, he is able to transition into a back-flip and then defend himself against a devastating assault by Sidious that would have otherwise torn him to pieces. Again, note that, in particularly this instance, Sidious would be traveling much faster than Obi-Wan would (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwktH2gGnPk&t=3m18s). Thus, Maul has progressed forward from this particular performance against Obi-Wan. If Obi-Wan tries this technique again, it will not work, since even Sidious himself was unable to end the fight this way.

The first kick being referenced here was landed on Maul's chest.

And you're assuming Sidious was going all out against Maul. Frankly, that Kenobi was doing more damage to maul than his vast superior should let you know sids was just having fun. Not to mention that that same fight has Sidious twice stunning someone with maul level durability in Oppress with his kicks.

Chalk it up to that or inconsistency, but your assertion that Maul is beyond being seriously affected by kicks from sub-Kenobi opponents is some rather laughable reaching.

As we've seen repeatedly, TCW Kenobi can hurt Maul physically just fine, how badly maul got beat by sidious isn't changing that. Additionally I can point to Kenobi's ability to stagger(while a physical wreck) Oppress with a punch and then incap him by virtue of physical strikes, not that I need to since we have Kenobi actually fighting Maul.

Kicking is also not the only way we've seen Kenobi seize the advantage vs Maul.

We've seen Kenobi slam Maul's blade down, drive him back(twice) when going on the offense, and outmaneuvering him. On the other hand all Maul's ever actually managed to do to Kenobi in a direct 1 v 1 battle is kick Kenobi when physically and mentally wrecked. And even then, said kicks have done less than Kenobi's.

Rockydonovang
Part 5:

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
2) In the particular kick instance where Maul was disorientated for a duration of time, it appears Obi-Wan kicked his face. Additionally, Obi-Wan was in a leveraged position and Maul's taller than he would normally be due to the legs (insert high-ground joke here), allowing him to strike Maul's head where he might have otherwise hit his chest which would have then made him vulnerable to being cut in half. Perhaps most importantly, if Obi-Wan would have pressed the attack against Maul in this stance, I find it unlikely that Maul would have remained like he was. Maul has handled feeling the slashes of a thousand Jedi striking him and being cut in two. His pain tolerance is arguably the greatest in all of Canon, or at least high among the list. In a situation where Obi-Wan would be about to kill him, Maul would likely summon the necessary strength to deflect it and continue the fight. Since Obi-Wan was not, Maul allowed himself a moment to channel his rage and recover since he was not in particular danger. Also, your claim that he was out of the game for seven seconds is baseless. Maul is visibly only out of the game for about two. We do not know what happened the other five seconds. When it cuts back to him, you see him staring at Obi-Wan. To me, this suggests that while he had yet to fully recovered, he has recovered to the point that he would have absolutely been able to defend himself if Obi-Wan pressed the attack. It's also worth mentioning that since even Sidious didn't land a blow to Maul's head with a kick, I find it unlikely Obi-Wan can replicate such a blow again under neutral conditions and without sensing a fellow Jedi's death, which would obviously compel to get Maul off of him and go check things out, immediately before it happened. This particular rebuttal is continued later on when we get to the "ragdolling" section, so stay tuned.

1. Kenobi didn't kick his face, he kicked the top of his chest which would be more resistant to pain than the lower portions of his upperbody

2. A good observation, however Kenobi kicking him lower wouldn't have made things better here since kicks in stomach are worse than kicks in the chest, especially the pec area which is typically much tougher.

3. I never argued Maul was at Kenobi's mercy there, but maul would be defending from a disadvantage here given how long he took to fully recover from the pain. This would give Kenobi an opening and duels are usually by the dude who can force their opponent into a disadvantageous position.

4. The point being that Kenobi is the one who's doing things of note in their fights, not Maul, likely because, well, Kenobi's better.

5. BTW, We can tell Maul is still recovering because at https://youtu.be/aE_CVWMWK74?t=2m2s
we see Maul jerking his head up

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Also, kicking is not synonymous with penetrating lightsaber defenses. Just because you could kick someone doesn't mean you could have slashed them there instead.

Never said that.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
3) If you look at how Maul fights against Obi-Wan when Savage is with him, something is immediately noticeable. Whenever Maul presses the attack, Obi-Wan is generally able to go off that momentum and then kick and/or attack Savage. Thus, Maul is limited with his options, as demonstrated by the fact that he is, again, almost completely stationary. Maul is not in a situation where he could just launch an all-out assault against Obi-Wan when Savage is in the position where he is. That would be, demonstrably, putting his brother at risk. Overall, too, we see Maul in a situation that is extremely narrow and presents him no room to perform the acrobatic assaults that is essential to his form of lightsaber combat. Maul's just completely disadvantaged here. Ultimately, the fact Savage is fighting alongside Maul does not help, but rather hinders, Maul's possibilities.

Some neat straws you're grasping for here. Not one of the hits Kenobi lands on Oppress features Maul giving Kenobi any momentum. On the contrary, all said hits happen when Kenobi has given himself space away from Maul. The best thing for Maul to do to save his brother here is to press Kenobi so that he's preoccupied. Maul isn't able to do this enough because
A. Kenobi is able to defend against maul is throwing at him before creating space for himself by driving oppress away from maul
B. Maul is having a hard time coping with Kenobi's offense which is why things like this happen:
https://youtu.be/aE_CVWMWK74?t=3m46s
C. Kenobi has created space for himself via a kick:
https://youtu.be/aE_CVWMWK74?t=3m38s

Your reaching aside, the only unfavorable context for the brothers is Kenobi getting two sabers which admittedly boosts him in the context of a 1 v 2, but in no way does that hinder maul individually in the context of a 1 v 1. Looking at this strictly as Kenobi vs Maul, Kenobi
A. had to deal with the presence of another fighter
B. was forced to utilize a secondary style due to the presence of said fighter.
Maul has unfavorable circumstances of his own in the shape of those legs, but so does Kenobi, and it's Kenobi who did better in this fight.


Originally posted by DarthAnt66
There's really no ground to stand on for that. This particular fight we are having is essentially Maul vs Obi-Wan with all the conditions that let Obi-Wan do what he did gone: Savage Opress is absent so Maul doesn't have to be stationary, there's no dead Jedi that may allow Obi-Wan uncanny focus (Kenobi might not be empowered by the deaths of others, but that doesn't mean it can't increase his focus, especially considering these other circumstances), Maul has new legs so he's going to be able to handle the kicks and will be able to move about far more freely, and the environment would not be disadvantageous to Maul so, again, he's not so constrained and restricted. Obi-Wan, unlike Maul, is able to fight in such constrained spaces due to the benefits of a defensive style with minimal movement.

Not only that, but Maul, now in his Son of Dathomir incarnation, is now going to be even more skilled and even more powerful than last time around!

1. Addressed

2. Your assertion that Kenobi was externally focused is baseless and is contradicted by the very source you're using to assert this. Feloni denies the focus being external and then attributes Kenobi gaining focus to his own character traits. Feloni also cites the focus coming as a result of Kenobi's own choice to right that wrong. The evidence suggests Kenobi focused himself as a result of Galia's death, not that he was circumstantially boosted by external circumstances.

3. They weren't in a constrained space as evinced by Kenobi being able to fully execute his ataru. Aside from not being canon, Shadow Conspiracy is blatantly contradicted by the episode here on this point. Additionally, Kenobi was at his best going on the offense here, not defense, There was no use of soresu here, Kenobi's movements weren't remotely minimal and were far more acrobatic than what Maul's displayed throughout the entirety of TCW.

4. Of everything you've claimed here, only maul's legs serve as a legitimate hindrance here, Kenobi also had a couple of unfavorable circumstances though and he still showed superiority here.

Darth Thor
Given the major combat disadvantage Revenge and Revival Maul has due to his velociraptor legs:

@0:45

https://youtu.be/nJUWUdw-Yis

And given the fact that he's still likely not even a match for his TPM self in a Saber fight, due to still recovering from and adapting to fighting as a cybernetic being:

@ 3:24

https://youtu.be/RGvwH4Z92A0

Revenge/Revival Maul holding his own as well as he did against Revenge/Revival Obi-Wan speaks a lot to his fighting skills and how good Peak (The Lawless/SOD) Maul must be - definitely a good match for ROTS Obi-Wan.

Rockydonovang
1. if he's still not a match for his tpm self, that lowers where his sod self would be and additionally makes you start wondering if in canon, tcw maul is a beter duelist han tpm maul

2. Revenge/Revival Kenobi also had disadvantageous circumstances and still showcased superiority.

thesithmaster
Can't wait for Ant to rip this apart.

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by thesithmaster
Can't wait for Ant to rip this apart.
A nice escape from regularly getting ripped apart yourself, right?

thesithmaster
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
A nice escape from regularly getting ripped apart yourself, right?

I don't need to escape from what does not exist+can only happen in your wildest dreams.

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by thesithmaster
I don't need to escape from what does not exist+can only happen in your wildest dreams.
I have better things to dream about than you bud

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
1. if he's still not a match for his tpm self, that lowers where his sod self would be and additionally makes you start wondering if in canon, tcw maul is a beter duelist han tpm maul

2. Revenge/Revival Kenobi also had disadvantageous circumstances and still showcased superiority.


Leaving the debate portion of this between you and Ant.

But since you count Filoni's every word on Maul's combat abilities as complete Canon, I'm just pointing out clear cut and factual statements by Filoni on the Major Combat disadvantages he was facing up until Revival at least.

I'm not taking vague statements of Filoni's and twisting them to suit my arguments like you have been. Filoni couldn't be more clear on Maul's velociraptor legs and his recovery process.

Given that, the fact that he essentially held his own against Kenobi (not being cut, floored, KO'd or disarmed once in Revival) even in the cave which would have restricted his mobility Even More, says a lot about Maul's Saber and Combat abilities in relation to TCW/ROTS era Kenobi's.

Rockydonovang
it's almost as if no one actually argued maul couldn't hold his own against Kenobi?
Anyway, my response to ant isn't quite done yet

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
it's almost as if no one actually argued maul couldn't hold his own against Kenobi?



No Maul "held his own" with those major disadvantages on his side. Without those disadvantages he'd easily be Kenobi's equal.

Except for being outnumbered in the final fight, Kenobi faced no disadvantages whatsoever in Revival. On the contrary he was on Peak form. Both mentally and physically.

Rockydonovang
and was also forced to use a secondary style which would be a hindrance in a 1 v 1 against maul. Given Oppress isn't in this fight, we should be looking at the florrum fight as to what it would mean in regards to maul individually.

Anyway, I've repeatedly acknowledged maul had hindrances, but that doesn't justify ignoring that Kenobi also found himself with disadvantages in both encounters.

You also seem to be ignoring this was a pre-prime Kenobi, unless your argument is maul is easily equal to a pre prime Kenobi?
That he was in peak physical and mental form has nothing to do with external circumstances which remain present regardless of what form Kenobi was in.

And yet again, your argument for Maul is dependent on an arbituary assumption of how much bette rmaul would have done without said hindrances,

That Kenobi did better and that Maul had stuff imparing his performance doesn't prove anything regarding how Maul would do without hindrances. And it becomes rather shaky ground when we realize Kenobi also had disadvantages which for some reason you're still disputing the presence of.

That Maul's hindrances were highlighted(as were Kenobi's)by Feloni doesn't diminish Kenobi's hindrances.

Kenobi getting physically wrecked was focused on for several minuites by the episode, and feloni has confirmed Kenobi was mentally thrown off by maul's revival before getting banged up which would on;y hurt his already badly impaired mentality.

Hence why Maul's dun moch worked there.

They both had unfavorable circumstances, and Kenobi came out better. Maul may have improved as of sod, but Kenobi had all of season 5, dd, and then the outer rim sieges to grow.

Darth Thor
I'm not doing the full on debate as I'm leaving that to Ant.

But in summary:

Filoni credits Maul for doing well beating Kenobi in Revenge due to the major disadvantages Maul faced. He says Kenobi couldn't win because he was in the wrong mind set. End of.

Filoni acknowledges Maul was still majorly disadvantaged in Revival. He says Maul, then later Maul+Opress couldn't defeat a Kenobi in the right mind set especially after the extra boost of focus he reached after Adi's death.

Given how clear Filoni made it that Maul's velociraptor legs limited his mobility, it goes without saying he'd be Even More limited in a cave environment. Yes Kenobi had the disadvantage of being outnumbered. But I don't accept his fighting style was a disadvantage. He seemed to mix up the best of all his combat moves, and Filoni pretty much confirmed that was a peak performance for him given his intense level of focus to right the wrong done to Adi.

It's funny how you always mention your favorite characters are pre-prime, but ignore that their opponents are as well.

S4 Savage was Pre-Prime, given he hadn't been trained by Maul yet, and Dooku even points out he's gaining power every day. Not sure how you decided S4 Ventress was pre-prime, but alas given Savage was pre-prime it wouldn't matter.

Likewise S5 Kenobi was pre-ROTS prime I guess, though I'm not sure how much he improved from S5 to ROTS in Canon. But Maul was still in recovery in S5 as per Filoni. So of course he was also pre-prime. He was gaining power (as noted by Savage), he was still in recovery, and his more human sized legs would allow him to properly utilize his acrobatics and martial arts (essential part of his fighting style) as confirmed by Filoni.

I also find it amusing how vague statements by Filoni, which are not clear cut or expanded upon at all, are treated as word of god by you in favor of your preferred characters, but his more clear cut statements in favor of characters you argue against are almost brushed aside by you.

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by Darth Thor
I'm not doing the full on debate as I'm leaving that to Ant.

But in summary:

Filoni credits Maul for doing well beating Kenobi in Revenge due to the major disadvantages Maul faced. He says Kenobi couldn't win because he was in the wrong mind set. End of.

Filoni acknowledges Maul was still majorly disadvantaged in Revival. He says Maul, then later Maul+Opress couldn't defeat a Kenobi in the right mind set especially after the extra boost of focus he reached after Adi's death.

Given how clear Filoni made it that Maul's velociraptor legs limited his mobility, it goes without saying he'd be Even More limited in a cave environment. Yes Kenobi had the disadvantage of being outnumbered. But I don't accept his fighting style was a disadvantage. He seemed to mix up the best of all his combat moves, and Filoni pretty much confirmed that was a peak performance for him given his intense level of focus to right the wrong done to Adi.

It's funny how you always mention your favorite characters are pre-prime, but ignore that their opponents are as well.

S4 Savage was Pre-Prime, given he hadn't been trained by Maul yet, and Dooku even points out he's gaining power every day. Not sure how you decided S4 Ventress was pre-prime, but alas given Savage was pre-prime it wouldn't matter.

Likewise S5 Kenobi was pre-ROTS prime I guess, though I'm not sure how much he improved from S5 to ROTS in Canon. But Maul was still in recovery in S5 as per Filoni. So of course he was also pre-prime. He was gaining power (as noted by Savage), he was still in recovery, and his more human sized legs would allow him to properly utilize his acrobatics and martial arts (essential part of his fighting style) as confirmed by Filoni.

I also find it amusing how vague statements by Filoni, which are not clear cut or expanded upon at all, are treated as word of god by you in favor of your preferred characters, but his more clear cut statements in favor of characters you argue against are almost brushed aside by you.
1. If Maul I still in recovery, that's only going to lower where he'd reached as of sod.

2. Any way this "end of" is just a hilarious way to ignore context you don't like. We don't ignore evidence from one source because another source highlights different evidence. And Feloni has specified Kenobi's mental state was wrecked whenhe was ambushed before getting the snot beaten out of him. Not to Mention Feloni decided to set aside two minuites, just to focus on Kenobi getting the snot beat out of him. Kenobi had disadvantages both times as di Maul, however aside from maul's use of dun mohc, which came by virtue of exposing a comprosimed physical and mental state, Kenobi's always come out ahead despite having much more time to grow than Maul did.

3, And you can drop the accusations of me "brushing aside" crap. I have acknowledged Maul's hindrances multiple times, your need to attack a strawmen is telling of the rather difficult stance you're trying to argue. Naturally in order to give an impression that things are more even than they are, you've decided to continuously downplay the obvious hindrances that Kenobi faced.

4. Your double standards are rather obvious everytime you try to pass off Kenobi getting ko'd twiceand beaten to the point he can barely stand as a minor detail because Feloni decided to dedicate time in the actual source material to it rather than explicitly specify something that he didn't bother to show(maul's legs ect.)

5. I'm not going to ignore that though, because unlike you I'm not going to try and engage in doubles standards just because an objective analysis yields results that aren't favorable to my character,

Darth Thor
^ Ooh I sense some butt hurt in that post:


Originally posted by Rockydonovang
1. If Maul I still in recovery, that's only going to lower where he'd reached as of sod.


Urmm because he'll obviously be a much better combatant once he's fully (or mostly) recovered...

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
2. Any way this "end of" is just a hilarious way to ignore context you don't like. We don't ignore evidence from one source because another source highlights different evidence. And Feloni has specified Kenobi's mental state was wrecked whenhe was ambushed before getting the snot beaten out of him. Not to Mention Feloni decided to set aside two minuites, just to focus on Kenobi getting the snot beat out of him. Kenobi had disadvantages both times as di Maul, however aside from maul's use of dun mohc, which came by virtue of exposing a comprosimed physical and mental state, Kenobi's always come out ahead despite having much more time to grow than Maul did.


Addressing the main points below, but Kenobi is coming out only slightly ahead when Maul has faced seriously severe disadvantages next to Kenobi's much more minor and easily rectified disadvantages.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
3, And you can drop the accusations of me "brushing aside" crap. I have acknowledged Maul's hindrances multiple times, your need to attack a strawmen is telling of the rather difficult stance you're trying to argue. Naturally in order to give an impression that things are more even than they are, you've decided to continuously downplay the obvious hindrances that Kenobi faced.


You are brushing it aside when you're trying to equate a slapping around to getting new legs and not having fought in 10+ years.

You are brushing it aside by trying to prove fighting "with a secondary style" (not canon by the way) is worse than being in recovery from having a severe physical disability with prosthetic legs which are seriously limiting your fighting style.

You're brushing aside because you're basically equating confirmed disadvantages supported by creator statements to the disadvantages you've mostly decided upon yourself.


Originally posted by Rockydonovang
4. Your double standards are rather obvious everytime you try to pass off Kenobi getting ko'd twiceand beaten to the point he can barely stand as a minor detail because Feloni decided to dedicate time in the actual source material to it rather than explicitly specify something that he didn't bother to show(maul's legs ect.)

Please do tell where I've shown double standards. Do you actually know what double standard means?

I've repeatedly and tirelessly explained (with examples from Filoni canon) why Kenobi getting KO'd beforehand pretty much is insignificant next to the severe physical challenges Maul was facing.


Originally posted by Rockydonovang
5. I'm not going to ignore that though, because unlike you I'm not going to try and engage in doubles standards just because an objective analysis yields results that aren't favorable to my character,


Addressed. And way to turn my own accusations back onto me.

thesithmaster
Originally posted by Darth Thor
^ Ooh I sense some butt hurt in that post

You don't sense it, you have a brain and thus can see obvious things.

chingchangwalla
Worst thread possible. Maul haters and Maul wankers crying

ChocolateMuesli
Originally posted by chingchangwalla
Worst thread possible. Maul haters and Maul wankers crying
we haven't missed you idiot

chingchangwalla
Originally posted by ChocolateMuesli
we haven't missed you idiot
Who are you

ChocolateMuesli
not chingchangwalla

Darth Thor
Originally posted by chingchangwalla
Worst thread possible. Maul haters and Maul wankers crying



Ha! I actually found this funny

It's true there is a level of butthurt on both sides.

MythLord
This was supposed to be between Ant and Rocky, yet filthy scum from both brigades came in and ruined it.

I'm hijacking this thread:
Trump is a white supremacist?

Discuss.

Unbowed
Yes, and it's a good thing too. White people are the best.

thesithmaster
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Ha! I actually found this funny

It's true there is a level of butthurt on both sides.

The only butthurt I see here is from the Maul haters. And in gigantic amounts.

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by MythLord
This was supposed to be between Ant and Rocky, yet filthy scum from both brigades came in and ruined it.

I'm hijacking this thread:
Trump is a white supremacist?

Discuss.
Maul has a brigade?

chingchangwalla
Originally posted by MythLord

Trump is a white supremacist?

I wish

chingchangwalla
Originally posted by thesithmaster
The only butthurt I see here is from the Maul haters. And in gigantic amounts.
Maul 'skeptics' love to point out his embarrassing encounters with padawans and almost getting his face bitten off by a dog and that's all relevant. I need some convincing that Maul is still a somewhat decent combatant, where is ILS...?

chingchangwalla
Originally posted by Unbowed
Yes, and it's a good thing too. White people are the best.
But whitey stole everything from us blacks! We wuz building pyramids n shiet! We wuz goin to da moon! But whitey oppressed us with their Jew friends, just ask Louis Farrakhan!

thesithmaster
Originally posted by chingchangwalla
Maul 'skeptics' love to point out his embarrassing encounters with padawans and almost getting his face bitten off by a dog and that's all relevant. I need some convincing that Maul is still a somewhat decent combatant, where is ILS...?

He got cheap-shotted by a Padawan. That Padawan was made into a joke even when his Master was there in the actual fight.

Maul was cheap-shotted by a dog whose species managed to kill a Jedi Master by biting his neck and throwing him around. Everyone in Star Wars has had cheap-shot humiliations.

Convincing? Maul is a tier 8. Given that's a "cheat" tier, above tier seven, which includes only 0.1% of the Jedi Order. And making Qui-Gon+Kenobi into a joke. Stomping four MagnaGuards. This got you convinced?

chingchangwalla
Originally posted by thesithmaster
He got cheap-shotted by a Padawan. That Padawan was made into a joke even when his Master was there in the actual fight.

Maul was cheap-shotted by a dog whose species managed to kill a Jedi Master by biting his neck and throwing him around. Everyone in Star Wars has had cheap-shot humiliations.

Convincing? Maul is a tier 8. Given that's a "cheat" tier, above tier seven, which includes only 0.1% of the Jedi Order. And making Qui-Gon+Kenobi into a joke. Stomping four MagnaGuards. This got you convinced?
No, honestly.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by thesithmaster
The only butthurt I see here is from the Maul haters. And in gigantic amounts.


There is obviously butthurt from us Maul fans as well on the way Filoni has treated the character in Rebels.

Unbowed
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Maul has a brigade?
https://media.tenor.com/images/8ad4d2ed04f3094456f12d099251727e/tenor.gif

chingchangwalla
Originally posted by Unbowed
https://media.tenor.com/images/8ad4d2ed04f3094456f12d099251727e/tenor.gif
Beautiful gif

Darth Thor
Originally posted by chingchangwalla
Maul 'skeptics' love to point out his embarrassing encounters with padawans and almost getting his face bitten off by a dog and that's all relevant. I need some convincing that Maul is still a somewhat decent combatant, where is ILS...?


Yeah a dog jumped on him one time. He must be shit tier.

YousufKhan1212
Originally posted by chingchangwalla
Maul 'skeptics' love to point out his embarrassing encounters with padawans and almost getting his face bitten off by a dog and that's all relevant. I need some convincing that Maul is still a somewhat decent combatant, where is ILS...?

LOL.

BlueTiger1144
Maul. Stronger. Equally skilled. More powerful.

Rockydonovang
Maul fans feeling the need to give ant backup has completely derailed the fck out of this debate

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Maul fans feeling the need to give ant backup has completely derailed the fck out of this debate


Apologies for the part I've played in that. Let it get back to you and Ant. Maybe repost your last response to him..

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Apologies for the part I've played in that. Let it get back to you and Ant. Maybe repost your last response to him..
It's fine, I should have restrained myself from responding and thus trying to solo the entire Maul fanbase at kmc at once

That would clog the thread even more, I'll just respond to the last part of his counter I suppose, then maybe Ant's willing to clog through all the pages here to respond to each part, I won't blame him if he isn't

nfactor1995
Originally posted by nfactor1995
This debate between Kbro and Ant cannot be allowed to die

godemperortrump
Pathetic Kbro. Maul stomps Kenobi for the hundredth time

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by godemperortrump
Pathetic Kbro. Maul stomps Kenobi for the hundredth time
I bet.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=no4SxdIIDBE

Rebel95
I'd favor Kenobi, but it could go either way

ILS
I think the main factor in who wins between these two will always be circumstance and story: I would favour Maul as far as the Force is concerned but, if we are to assume Kenobi's power increased significantly between SoD and RotS, which I suppose it could well have, then it could still be a very close fight. Though, as I argued some time ago, there's many indicators Maul's own power would have increased after the events of SoD, so who knows.

ChocolateMuesli
maul

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by ILS
I think the main factor in who wins between these two will always be circumstance and story: I would favour Maul as far as the Force is concerned but, if we are to assume Kenobi's power increased significantly between SoD and RotS, which I suppose it could well have, then it could still be a very close fight. Though, as I argued some time ago, there's many indicators Maul's own power would have increased after the events of SoD, so who knows.
sabers are a thing ya know

Rockydonovang
Anyway, whatever power edge Maul may or may not have against Kenobi wasn't particularly relevant in their fights setting aside when maul had backup.

Instead it was Kenobi's superiority with the blade that proved the most important factor under a mix of both favorable and unfavorable circumstances. Given Kenobi after SOD has had DD, the outer rim sieges, and a massive emotional triumph against Anakin to grow from, we have no reason to assume Kenobi still isn't the superior swordsman. That should be sufficient to give him a win here.

That said, the fight should be a very good one. As Rebels Maul has managed to find himself in the range of a rots Kenobi+ duelist in Rebels Vader and Rebels Kenobi despite growing less than Kenobi did post-ROTS, the gap between the two can't be a big one.

godemperortrump
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Anyway, whatever power edge Maul may or may not have against Kenobi wasn't particularly relevant in their fights setting aside when maul had backup.

Instead it was Kenobi's superiority with the blade that proved the most important factor under a mix of both favorable and unfavorable circumstances. Given Kenobi after SOD has had DD, the outer rim sieges, and a massive emotional triumph against Anakin to grow from, we have no reason to assume Kenobi still isn't the superior swordsman. That should be sufficient to give him a win here.

That said, the fight should be a very good one. As Rebels Maul has managed to find himself in the range of a rots Kenobi+ duelist in Rebels Vader and Rebels Kenobi despite growing less than Kenobi did post-ROTS, the gap between the two can't be a big one.

Umm what? Maul's power 'edge' is relevant... He's choked/dominated Obi-Wan with the force for long periods of time with little effort in Canon and Legends.

Got any quotes to backup Kenobi's 'superiority with the blade?' Or just assumptions?

It's pretty clear that Kenobi has been kept alive thanks to the plot. Maul could have killed him a myriad of times throughout TCW, but that was not his ultimate goal. He has said time and time again that he just wants Obi to 'suffer' and 'feel the pain he felt.' It's not until Rebels when Filoni decides he can't be bothered dragging this pathetic, butchered character out any longer and ends him.

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by godemperortrump
Umm what? Maul's power 'edge' is relevant... He's choked/dominated Obi-Wan with the force for long periods of time with little effort in Canon and Legends.

He's either done it when Kenobi was injured, when Kenobi was focused on Maul's brother, when Maul is explicitly stated to have lost control of his rage, and is drawing on animalistic rage, or when they aren't even fighting. In terms of actual straight up duels, Maul has failed to make use of the force be it season 4 or their 1 v 1 on florrum.

If he's not able to beat Kenobi with the force as of TCW, he's not doing it to ROTS Kenobi.
Originally posted by godemperortrump
Got any quotes to backup Kenobi's 'superiority with the blade?' Or just assumptions?

Well we have their actual fights where Kenobi's the one landing disorientating kicks, flooring or incapping him while injured or dealing with all his attacks while wrecking Maul's brother with unfavorable and favorable circumstances. Maul only ever managed to "beat" Kenobi when he exploited Kenobi circumstantially being a wreck mentally and physically with dun moch, something he's failed to replicate vs Kenobi without aid. And even then, the fight was more or less a stalemate being slightly in Maul's favor per Feloni, purely due to the situation.

Kenobi's better because he's repeatedly shown he's better.

godemperortrump
Are you serious?

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114474/5025445-chokingobiwan.jpg

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114474/5025446-chokingobiwan2.jpg

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114474/5025447-chokingobiwan3.jpg

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114474/5025448-chokingobiwan4.jpg

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114474/5025449-chokingobiwan5.png

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114474/5025450-chokingobiwan6.png

Also notice in image 4 how Maul has stopped the 'choke gesture' and has his focus on Plo Koon, yet Kenobi is still on the ground with his hands around his neck desperate for air.

This choke is enough to leave the durable Obi-Wan injured and incapable of continuing.

Pretty impressive force feat for Maul.



You mean the time where Kenobi is fighting with duel blades and a completely different style? Something Maul would not expect him to do? Add in a rage amp due to the death of his great friend Adi Gallia and you have reasons... This was clearly circumstantial.

You say this as if Kenobi's victories against Maul weren't circumstantial (TPM, Rebels and the one time in TCW which has already been addressed)

- TPM is obvious, young pre-prime Obi-Wan was dominated by Maul even with a rage amp. Also extreme PIS. I don't think that needs further explanation

- Rebels Maul was physically deteriorating (chunks falling off his metal legs) and he'd been wandering around the deserts of Tatooine for two weeks without Food or water. Not to mention Maul's arrogance and Kenobi's will to protect Luke at all costs.

"When you get to this episode Obi-Wan is much more focused and ready. Not only that but when Adi Gallia dies he gains even more focus and has to kind of right that wrong."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1089&v=zvGXSe8fvrs



Which you didn't prove...

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by godemperortrump
Are you serious?

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114474/5025445-chokingobiwan.jpg

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114474/5025446-chokingobiwan2.jpg

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114474/5025447-chokingobiwan3.jpg

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114474/5025448-chokingobiwan4.jpg

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114474/5025449-chokingobiwan5.png

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114474/5025450-chokingobiwan6.png

I take it you can read, right?

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
He's either done it when Kenobi was injured, when Kenobi was focused on Maul's brother, when Maul is explicitly stated to have lost control of his rage, and is drawing on animalistic rage, or when they aren't even fighting.
And yes, Kenobi isn't able to break out of the chokehold, TCW Kenobi isn't superior to TCW Maul as a force user and hence isn't going to be overpowering his grip while he's struggling for air.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
You mean the time where Kenobi is fighting with duel blades and a completely different style? Something Maul would not expect him to do?

Maul can't handle offensive duelists? Just how sh!t do you think he is? sad

And nah, Kenobi being forced to use a secondary style as he would get outlasted if he tried to use his soresu against not only Maul, but Oppress as well isn't really something that would help him vs Maul in a 1 v 1.
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Add in a rage amp due to the death of his great friend Adi Gallia and you have reasons

You wanna quote me on that rage amp? Kenobi did focus himself, something he's done on a whim in situations as emotionally stimulating as blaster deflection, but that's distinctly different from a rage amp, losing control of your rage, which, unlike what Kenobi did, is circumstantial:

INB4 Thor confuses parts of supplementary material that contradict canon with parts of supplementary material that supplement it.
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
... This was clearly circumstantial.

Between Oppress having backup which forced Kenobi into utilizing a secondary style, you're right. thumb up

I'll help you out though, there is some actual context against Maul that you can argue compensates for the circumstances Kenobi had to deal with as he outperformed Maul despite being pre-prime:

Maul had an agility boost once he got new legs.
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
You say this as if Kenobi's victories against Maul weren't circumstantial (TPM, Rebels and the one time in TCW which has already been addressed)


- TPM is obvious, young pre-prime Obi-Wan was dominated by Maul even with a rage amp. Also extreme PIS. I don't think that needs further explanation

Hey man, I got you something:
http://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/2296746757/n37nkkimyns6wr51ud16_400x400.jpeg
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
- Rebels Maul was physically deteriorating (chunks falling off his metal legs) and he'd been wandering around the deserts of Tatooine for two weeks without Food or water. Not to mention Maul's arrogance and Kenobi's will to protect Luke at all costs.

None of this matters coz:

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
"When you get to this episode Obi-Wan is much more focused and ready. Not only that but when Adi Gallia dies he gains even more focus and has to kind of right that wrong."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1089&v=zvGXSe8fvrs

In that same interview Feloni denies him being externally empowered by the sense of loss he had from Galaia's death and attributes Kenobi focusing himself to Kenobi's own personal traits. And the amp isn't a rage-based one, it's a focus based one. A boost that Kenobi is capable of replicating:

And guess what, we see Kenobi replicating it at will:

The circumstantial rage amp you're looking for isn't even a rage amp and it isn't circumstantial.
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Which you didn't prove...
Look back at read the counters I posted vs Ant if you want. I'd have completed it, but I was too busy dealing with scrubs like you. wink

TheIndyJedi
Seriously you debated with the guy who thinks Ven Zallow>Maul???

TheNuisanceBird
Originally posted by TheIndyJedi
Seriously you debated with the guy who thinks Ven Zallow>Maul???

Not as bad as Evan saying Maul is Bultar Swan level lol

TheIndyJedi
Originally posted by TheNuisanceBird
Not as bad as Evan saying Maul is Bultar Swan level lol
Lmao true

DarthCaedus77
Maul is more powerful with the force but Kenobi is better in sabers. Good fight, backing Maul.

RealistRacism
Kenobi's just better at everything.

McP
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Maul didn't diminish in terms of actualized power, but his potential was crippled per Lucas's statement about limbs and power.

Frankly, I'm wondering how you were planning to reconcile Maul being sids-tier potential wise to him having his growth eclipsed by Ben Kenobi's in the 15 years afterwards.

If I may...
Well, that dicussion about potential might be irrelevant. I actually agree with this, since Lucas is the best person to judge that. Anyway, there are at least two major factors, even with assumption that loosing limbs and having injured, crippled body degrades your potential:
1. That kind of degradation might affects some people in defferent ways; you might be broken by it, you might accept it and try to move on or it might increase your anger and hate;
2. Maul was restored by Talzin, which might imply that points:
- Maul's potential could be restored to his prievous level;
- Maul's current potential could be increased to some degree;
- Maul could be enhanced and be even stronger then he was (just like Savage was);

quanchi112
Maul wins.

TheIndyJedi
Originally posted by RealistRacism
Kenobi's just better at everything.
Kenobi's victories involve PIS most of the time lmao

xPRIMEx
Kenobi should win

RealistRacism
Originally posted by TheIndyJedi
Kenobi's victories involve PIS most of the time lmao
Lmao so true hahahaha, Kenobi will never be weaker than Embo's dog, like Maul.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by RealistRacism
Lmao so true hahahaha, Kenobi will never be weaker than Embo's dog, like Maul.


Nor was Maul Lmao


And an Anoob is closer to a lion than a dog tbh.

But yeah just call it a dog, cause thats always a good one for Maul haters to throw around thumb up

RealistRacism
Maul haters DESTROYED by LOGIC and FACTS cool

TheIndyJedi
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Nor was Maul Lmao


And an Anoob is closer to a lion than a dog tbh.

But yeah just call it a dog, cause thats always a good one for Maul haters to throw around thumb up

Kbroskywalker/rockydonovang is the only Maul hater I know off

Darth Thor
^ Maul lowballers I should say then.

CuckedCurry
Originally posted by RealistRacism
Lmao so true hahahaha, Kenobi will never be weaker than Embo's dog, like Maul.

McP
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Nor was Maul Lmao

RealistRacism
It's okay Curry, this was actually a dog-sized Lion so Maul is a beast thumb up

Darth Thor

RealistRacism
These legs were human-like though, not 'chicken legs.' So he really should know how they work... This is just a terrible excuse, tbh.

He was still in recovery from being cleaved in half? How many years has it been? Anyway, what is meant by 'still in recovery'? Post the quote.

He takes them out with the force. I was making fun of Maul being outmuscled by a dog.

I like Maul shit talk.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by RealistRacism
These legs were human-like though, not 'chicken legs.' So he really should know how they work... This is just a terrible excuse, tbh.



Lmao its not about Knowing how they work. Its about getting used to them. At least allow him 1 damn episode for that lol.

RealistRacism
He needs a whole episode? This is such a negligible hinderance, and the positives definitely outweigh any negatives; Having legs that allow you to one-shot force wielders and cause more damage to anything > some trouble early-on with movement.

Darth Thor

CuckedCurry

RealistRacism
So your evidence is "he seemed pretty stiff." Which particular scene/s?

RealistRacism
You're yet to explain how his robotic legs relate to a small Anooba matching/exceeding Maul's force-enhanced upper-body strength for over thirty seconds, lmao.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by RealistRacism
So your evidence is "he seemed pretty stiff." Which particular scene/s?


Its pretty good supporting evidence to an already established rule in Star Wars canon (looks to Vader), yes.


Originally posted by RealistRacism
You're yet to explain how his robotic legs relate to a small Anooba matching/exceeding Maul's force-enhanced upper-body strength for over thirty seconds, lmao.


Because he wasnt in great shape at the time. I dont get whats so hard to grasp.

At first I thought you guys were just purposefully trolling Maul fans.

Now im starting to think this is actually a serious argument from you against Maul erm

RealistRacism
Comparing Vader's complete cybernetic overhaul, accompanied by a heavy suit to Maul's human-like metal legs thumb up

quanchi112
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Its pretty good supporting evidence to an already established rule in Star Wars canon (looks to Vader), yes.





Because he wasnt in great shape at the time. I dont get whats so hard to grasp.

At first I thought you guys were just purposefully trolling Maul fans.

Now im starting to think this is actually a serious argument from you against Maul erm So a guy who is encumbered in a life sized suit is comparable to robotic legs.

laughing out loud

Darth Thor
@ Cucked: I do spend my time on Anakin as well, which is usually an easier cause to fight for lol

Darth Thor
^ I see Quan just copied Realists argument the very next minute after he posted.


Originally posted by RealistRacism
Comparing Vader's complete cybernetic overhaul, accompanied by a heavy suit to Maul's human-like metal legs thumb up


Yes its half his damn body!

But the principle of getting used to new cybernetic parts is the same and established in canon.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Darth Thor
^ I see Quan just copied Realists argument the very next minute after he posted.





Yes its half his damn body!

But the principle of getting used to new cybernetic parts is the same and established in canon. Well you made a seriously lopsided comparison. A life sized suit to robotic legs is lulz worthy.

100 percent to 50 percent is a 2:1 ratio albeit a horrendous comparison.

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