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Starting distance is 10 meters. Who wins and why?

wrong forum

if malak isn't using stasis/tk from the start, GG

Originally posted by Ursumeles
wrong forum
ik, my mistake

Wait - Canon or Legends?

legends malak doesn't get the oppurunity to do anything as grevious quickly overwhelms him, canon, beating Kenobi justifies winning a duel, and he's tanked superior force attacks from maul.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Wait - Canon or Legends?
legends

Grievous blitzes.

Malak puts him in stasis and butchers him.

Nah.

Given how liberally Malak uses the technique, and how he can casually put Bastila, Carth, and even Revan in stasis, I don't see why that doesn't get him the sure victory here.

Grievous wins.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Given how liberally Malak uses the technique, and how he can casually put Bastila, Carth, and even Revan in stasis, I don't see why that doesn't get him the sure victory here.

Because that relies on the assumption that Malak can pull off a stasis technique more quickly then Mace can apply TK.

Not really. there's multiple instances throughout, say, TCW, where Grevious was tagged by the TK of vastly inferior force users to LoE Mace, and even times where Jedi easily had opportunities to tag Grevious with TK, but didn't. Unless you're arguing that Grevious literally got so much faster from early-mid TCW to LoE that he goes from being TK'd by the likes of Eeth Koth and Kenobi, to being too fast for Windu to effectively TK (I don't even know what this means, given that even ROTS Kenobi found an opening to TK Grevious).

Meanwhile Malak can literally put Revan in stasis mid-combat while also having to release his stasis on Bastila and Carth. Malak as one of the most skilled and powerful sith lords in Galactic History, who's also implied to be a better duelist than Revan by Drew, (and even gave Darth Revan a close duel pretty far pre-prime), will be capable of putting General Grevious in stasis, especially when the starting distance is 10 meters.

Grevious went undamaged by Maul's telekentic blasts+a massive fall in sod and then walked through mother talzin's force shield, a simple blast from Malak isn't sufficient, it has to be a grip or something like stasis.

So the question becomes, can grevious close the distance before Malak uses statis? If s, he wins, if not, he loses.

Not really. there's multiple instances throughout, say, TCW, where Grevious was tagged by the TK of vastly inferior force users to LoE Mace, and even times where Jedi easily had opportunities to tag Grevious with TK, but didn't.

TCW being Grievous before his prime. As of LoE prior to receiving his injury from Mace, he was capable of dodging Force blasts from multiple Jedi in a narrow hallway.

Unless you're arguing that Grevious literally got so much faster from early-mid TCW to LoE that he goes from being TK'd by the likes of Eeth Koth and Kenobi, to being too fast for Windu to effectively TK

I don't know about faster but he was definitely more skilled and experienced at combating enemy Force users which would've contributed to his ability to dodge Force blasts and the like. Was he ever tagged in TCW by TK that wasn't external? Because those are the only instances that would relevant if we're discussing a potential difference in TCW and late Clone Wars Grievous's speed.

Mace is perfectly willing to incapacitate or even kill Grievous as shown in the miniseries yet he chose to engage Grievous and cross the distance between them as the latter was pulling out his sabers despite having the length of a train car between them.

(I don't even know what this means, given that even ROTS Kenobi found an opening to TK Grevious).

After he'd unbalanced him by luring Grievous into a disadvantageous position and causing him to lose his focus. He's also noted to be familiar with the General's fighting style and, as we know, is a far more defensive fighter then Mace which would give him a greater opportunity to exploit an opening against Grievous.

"Jedi and cyborg fought briefly along a catwalk suspended over the lower levels of the hangar. By limiting Grievous' movement to the catwalk, Obi-Wan was able to neutralise the General's usually more ranging fighting style. Kenobi kept the fight close to the cyborg and, used to Grievous' moves now after so many encounters, it wasn't long before a clawed mechanical hand and the lightsaber it had once held clattered down onto the deck. Grievous was incensed. He launched a blistering attack, but his focus was gone. A matter of seconds later, he lost another hand and weapon." - The Official Star Wars Fact File Relaunched #39.

Meanwhile Malak can literally put Revan in stasis mid-combat while also having to release his stasis on Bastila and Carth.

Malak's ability to maintain his stasis while in a fight shows he is able to multi-task. It doesn't show that he can gather then energy to pull off a stasis while fighting off a lightsaber combatant of Grievous's caliber. That is, unless you're arguing that Revan at the time he was stasised by Malak is above Mace as a lightsaber combatant.

Malak as one of the most skilled and powerful sith lords in Galactic History,

That accolade is a dime a dozen so I'm finding it kind of hard to care.

who's also implied to be a better duelist than Revan by Drew,

Whether he's a better duelist or not is irrelevant since he's an inferior lightsaber combatant.

(and even gave Darth Revan a close duel pretty far pre-prime),

Assuming this is Malak without his Starforge amp and Jedi batteries. The amount he would've grown as a Force user between that duel and the end of KOTOR is unknown. I also find it interesting that you're willing to assume Malak and Revan's duel was "pretty close" because it was described as "desperate" yet you don't extend the same to Galen's Force engagement with Sidious that's described in the same manner. Seems like double standards to me.

will be capable of putting General Grevious in stasis, especially when the starting distance is 10 meters. thumb up

You're free to have that opinion but since I don't believe that Revan at the time he was stasised by Malak even approaches Mace as a lightsaber combatant and Mace had a far larger distance between himself and Grievous in the novel ( the standard length of a train car being 50ft ) and chose to cross that distance despite being perfectly willing to incapacitate Grievous with the Force ( as dictated by common sense and shown within the novel itself ), I'm going to assume that it is not within Malak's capabilities to do so.

grevious gets scaling over maul so malak being one of the most skilled duelists in history is pointless to bring up

Being "one of" the best is really irrelevant when we're taking about people who ARE the best.

grievous is the best?

He's a tier 25 duelist per Ant.

http://i.imgur.com/Cih8ukB.png?1

Malak wins via stasis.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Malak wins via stasis.

Nah.

Malak probably does win if he opts for Stasis.

regardless of William's argument, it doesn't matter, because Malak's stasis isn't something he has to target at Grevious (I.e. It's not something Grevious can just dodge,) so under these circumstances, in a forum setting, Malak uses stasis field + saber throw ftw.

Yeah a Stasis Field has to be resisted, not dodged. Something a non-Force sensitive can't do.

You must not have read through the whole response then since I addressed that point in there. Unless you're suggesting Force stasis can be utilized faster then Force crush.

Malak in canon

Legends is iffy but I'm going to back Malak for a majority as well.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
regardless of William's argument, it doesn't matter, because Malak's stasis isn't something he has to target at Grevious (I.e. It's not something Grevious can just dodge,) so under these circumstances, in a forum setting, Malak uses stasis field + saber throw ftw.
what setting, don't we go by in character?

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
what setting, don't we go by in character?

Yep.

Malak would use stasis. He loves that power.

aight then, malak wins coz hax

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
You must not have read through the whole response then since I addressed that point in there. Unless you're suggesting Force stasis can be utilized faster then Force crush.

Yeah because one requires targeting and one doesn't.

Then I guess you're suggesting Malak could utilize stasis faster then, specifically Mace, could use Force crush.

Last time I checked, Mace wrecked Grievous with Force crush.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0gnwyYRHu8

That's the point. Try reading the thread before attempting to sound smart.

The way you worded your post seemed to suggest Mace failed to Force crush Grievous, or at the very least was on the clock and almost got overwhelmed.

FB, by the way.

Mace didn't attempt to incapacitate Grievous with the Force in their LoE encounter despite having been on the other end of a train car rather opting to engage him saber to saber despite having limited time and actively seeking not to prolong the engagement. The fact that he did utilize Force crush on him in the miniseries shows that he would have no qualms about doing so in LoE.

Edit: Misread your post.

Reread my last post and try again.

Jedi don't always do the most practical scenario. I can go through countless TCW episodes where the issue could have been resolved if they just used the Force.

Whatever the case, we see Mace incapacitate Grievous here, so I don't see the point, since we know he can do it. It's entirely possible Mace regretted not doing it earlier, and thus decided to do it now, also.

Well, you're free to hold that interpretation if you like. Unfortunately I'm not going to assume PIS for PIS sake.

Mace can do it when Grievous isn't going to be moving towards him engage him ( he had to ensure the Chancellor was brought aboard the Invisible Hand ) and he has all the time in the world to focus his energies. He can't when Grievous is seeking to actively engage him even when he has the distance of an entire train car between them.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
It's entirely possible Mace regretted not doing it earlier, and thus decided to do it now, also.

You're right. It is possible. I don't deem it likely though.

It's entirely likely. Look at Mace vs Sidious. He goes in wanting to arrest him and not kill him. He changes his mind at the end after seeing Sidious' power.

Same with Dooku in Dark Disciple. Early in the war, Mace obviously didn't want to kill Dooku. The more terrible acts he committed, he eventually decided that they should assassinate Dooku.

Here, Mace fights Grievous but doesn't want to use a dark-side power. Due to this restriction, Grievous gets away. Next time they meet, Mace isn't making the same mistake, so opts to use the power.

What's your reconciliation of the event, btw? That Mace taking down Grievous like this was a one-off moment?

Grievous having to ensure the Chancellor was escorted to the Invisible Hand and not thinking a Jedi would use a Darkside power on him stayed on the ship by the Chancellor's side and draws his sabers likely in preparation for a charge or saber throw from Windu allowing Mace all the time he needed to employ Force crush on him.

Tell me how Grievous would have avoided that dark-side power, even if he got a written letter by Sidious a week earlier telling him it would happen during this fight. Grievous has no defense against that kind of attack. It's not something he can dodge - it's internal. He could run around and circles and still get ****ed. He could race to Mace but would still get ****ed. There's no situation here where Grievous doesn't get ****ed. Force choke isn't a technique that needs preparation, either.

There's no way you can avoid a power like that once it's used on you. You can only defend against it if you're a Force user or tanks its' effects if you're not. He would have engaged Mace before he could have gathered the necessary focus and energy to utilize the ability on him. It's why Mace chose to engage with him blade to blade rather then incapacitate him with the Force in LoE, he knew what the General was capable of. From my view anyways.

You're telling me Grievous is teleporting to Mace in .25 seconds?

Mace seemed to believe he wouldn't have been able to summon the necessary focus and energy to utilize the ability on Grievous before he would have engaged him in lightsaber combat.

I personally believe that's accurate given the fact that Mace was able to cross the distance between the two ends of the train car in the time it took for Grievous to grab his lightsaber blades and ignite them and Grievous is able to move his hands faster then a hypersonic blaster bolt ( this occurs in the same novel so no discrepancies across the lore to worry about ).

I'd wager all my respect threads that nothing says that Mace couldn't focus whatever whatever in that time.

So we're again going back to my original point I quoted and you agreed on but said unlikely for unknown reasons.

We see how fast it takes to choke someone in The Clone Wars and the films. It's a less-than-second long power. It's not a power that requires time.

You're humiliating yourself here out of pure love for Grievous over logic. It's okay that Grievous can't handle super powerful Jedi / Sith.

grevious totally handled Maul's force attack just fine....

Nothing states that and I never claimed it did. The fact that he didn't utilize the ability when he's shown himself perfectly willing to is what indicates that.

I find you're reasoning, that being that Mace is a flip flopper when it comes to these sorts of decisions, to be rather unconvincing considering he was perfectly willing to kill Dooku and Sidious in both instances where he attempts to arrest them. He's only offering them the chance to surrender peacefully as that's what's in line with his Jedi principals. In neither instance does he extend this same courtesy to Grievous moving to attack the general before he's even ignited his blades in LoE.

Answered this in my last response.

You're free to feel that way if you like.

@kbro: I assume you're being sarcastic, but if not, Grievous was thrown out of the room. Obviously a Force push won't kill Grievous - it won't kill any powerful being - but we're discussing other powers here.

Great point though that Maul used it effectively against Grievous w/o him dodging.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I'd wager all my respect threads that nothing says that Mace couldn't focus whatever whatever in that time.

So we're again going back to my original point I quoted and you agreed on but said unlikely for unknown reasons.

We see how fast it takes to choke someone in The Clone Wars and the films. It's a less-than-second long power. It's not a power that requires time.

You're humiliating yourself here out of pure love for Grievous over logic. It's okay that Grievous can't handle super powerful Jedi / Sith.

So I assume that was your final rebuttal? You usually end these things with a statement indicating the opposition is inferior if they are still sticking with their original stance after you've seen fit to reveal your own "enlightened" position to them which would indicate that you've finished.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
I find you're reasoning, that being that Mace is a flip flopper when it comes to these sorts of decisions, to be rather unconvincing considering he was perfectly willing to kill both Dooku and Sidious in both instances where he attempts to arrest them. He's only offering them the chance to surrender peacefully as that's what's in line with his Jedi principals. In neither instance does he extend this same courtesy to Grievous moving to attack the general before he's even ignited his blades.

You're just being intentionally ignorant. I can't fathom you personally believe what you're saying, but just want to say it because you don't want to concede.

Mace goes into a fight with Grievous thinking he can just take him down with a lightsaber. He's not expecting a threat great enough that he can't kill him, so there's no reason to start off with some dark-side attack without testing all his options first. That would be totally out of character for him and dangerous without testing other options first. Jedi never do that. Yoda didn't start out against Dooku trying to hurl rocks at him at bigger and bigger size, even though that might be the most effective course-of-action. He's first going to do what's within Jedi values, and then stretch them if that's not working.

Anyway, next time he sees Grievous, he's not going to try for the lightsaber fight again, since that was ineffective the first time. The ship is about to leave so he needs Grievous down quick, too. Mace opts to use a dark-side power he knows will be effective, which is again consistent with the Jedi losing their values in war-time as Sidious planned, to take down Grievous instantly. Grievous, without a defense, is completely destroyed.

Time, which you're citing, has nothing to do with it whatsoever. That's completely unsupported and inconsistent with all other material. Force choke is not a prolonged power. This is a fact. Your current perception of events doesn't work on any level of logic or consistency. You're undeniably wrong and it's best to concede.

You're free to have that opinion if you like, though I feel it's my responsibility to inform you that your assumption is incorrect.

Mace knows what Grievous is capable of since any Jedi who survived their engagement with the general had to report back to the Council. I disagree that he would try to defeat Grievous in saber combat when he himself tends to underestimate his own abilities ( unless you believe that his assessments of Vastor and Depa in comparison to him are accurate ). He's pragmatic. He's going to do whatever's necessary to end the war and save lives. Killing the CIS's best general who's already committed genocide against multiple planets is going to help do that. He's not going to be going back and forth on this. If he's willing to cut down an unarmed opponent he's willing to blow up their organs.

All Force user's require time to gather their energy to employ an action via the Force. If they didn't then every single Force user that ever faced Grievous would have beaten him easily with a mindtrick they employed midcombat. My apologies, I regret to inform you that will not be occurring.

what the ****

Got something you want to get off your chest honey buns?

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
You're free to have that opinion if you like though I feel it's my responsibility to inform you that your assumption is incorrect.

Mace knows what Grievous is capable of since any Jedi who survived their engagement with the general had to report back to the Council.
Mace doesn't have a sheet that says how skilled Grievous is. He knows he's good enough to killed Jedi, great. He also knows he's fought Obi-Wan a trillion times and never killed him once. He also knows Kit Fisto fought him and survived the encounter.



So you think Mace is going to not even attempt to take down Grievous as a Jedi would and go right to dark-side techniques? Patently stupid and completely out of character, unless you think Mace is going to treat Grievous as an even greater threat than Sidious.



Mind tricks only work on the weak mind.

That being said, no, Force choke has been shown as a power that is used nigh-instantly. Refer to Dooku and Sidious in their TCW fights. Or Malgus in the trailers.



Yeah, I wouldn't want to continue this if I were you either.

Mace doesn't have a sheet that says how skilled Grievous he. He knows he's good enough to killed Jedi, great. He also knows he's fought Obi-Wan a trillion times and never killed him once. He also knows Kit Fisto fought him and survived the encounter.

He believes Obi Wan to be a superior duelist to himself via his own admission and would be aware of Grievous's growth as well given the fact that Grievous and Obi Wan were still fighting relatively evenly by the end of the war. Being the master of lightsaber combat he is, I'm sure he would also be well aware of the disadvantage Grievous would have been at in a fight against a Shii Cho practitioner.

So you think Mace is going to not even attempt to take down Grievous as a Jedi would and go right to dark-side techniques? Patently stupid.

A Jedi wouldn't cut down an unarmed opponent. He never opted to act as a Jedi should in either confrontation.

Mind tricks only work on the weak mind. That being said, no, Force choke has been shown as a power that is used nigh-instantly. Refer to Dooku and Sidious in their TCW fights. Or Malgus in the trailers.

Telepathy works on minds weak or strong once a Force user passes a certain level of strength in the Force. Given C'baoth was able to dominate the minds of thousands of non Force user's I'm going to assume it is well within Mace's ( or most other Jedi for that matter ) capabilities to dominate the mind of a single non Force sensitive. Even one as strong as Grievous. Regardless, that wasn't the point. I'm saying that if any ability could be used instantly then the hundreds of Jedi that fought Grievous and died to him would've been able to use the Force to hoist him into the air or simply rip his lightsaber away from him while fighting him off with a lightsaber. Again, you might be ok with assuming those hundreds of instances were simple PIS, but I'm not. Also, you wouldn't be able to see a Force user gathering their power before they used an ability so you're Force choke example is irrelevant.

Yeah, I wouldn't want to continue this if I were you either. thumb up

I'm rather enjoying this actually. I'm referring to the concession that you're practically begging me to give you.

You missed the point, but in a way conceded it. Mace went in wanting to arrest, not kill Palpatine.

You're saying Mace should go in here wanting to kill Grievous, yet he doesn't even have that mindset against Sidious until the end.

We can take this further and say the same with Grievous. By the time OCW rolled out, he did have that mindset vs Grievous.



Mace couldn't mind-trick Cad Bane without the aid of two other Jedi. I doubt Grievous is vulnerable.



Grievous would be holding onto those lightsabers with immense grip. Are you saying he's weak enough to be bitched that way?

With being thrown in the air, who's to say beings haven't tried? Grievous would still have his feet and sabers to defend himself, and 99.9% of Jedi wouldn't be powerful enough to fight him and hold onto him at the same time anyhow.

Keep giving me excuses I'll keep debunking them.



What? How about Dooku? We know as per the novel he instantly unleashed the choke against Kenobi - so fast Kenobi couldn't even throw up a barrier.

You missed the point, but in a way conceded it. Mace went in wanting to arrest, not kill Palpatine.

He wanted to end his rule. I'm sure it didn't matter to him in what manner that occurred other then that it would've looked better for the Jedi to have arrested a Sith Lord who confessed to his crimes and was executed for them rather then a group of Jedi murdering the Chancellor and claiming he was a Sith Lord afterwards with very little evidence to support such a claim. Mace isn't stupid, he was likely aware that the chances of the former were close to nill, but he had to try.

You're saying Mace should go in here wanting to kill Grievous, yet he doesn't even have that mindset against Sidious until the end.

Read above.

We can take this further and say the same with Grievous. By the time OCW rolled out, he did have that mindset vs Grievous.

Even if what you claimed regarding how Mace viewed Sidious was true he obviously didn't view Grievous in the same way given he never opted to offer Grievous a chance to surrender in either instance.

Mace couldn't mind-trick Cad Bane without the aid of two other Jedi. I doubt Grievous is vulnerable.

Ah, you're bringing Canon into this. Fair enough, I thought you might which is why I clarified that utilizing telepathy was just an example and not the point of what I was saying and then went on to provide examples of actions Jedi could take in both Canon and Legend.

Grievous would be holding onto those lightsabers with immense grip. Are you saying he's weak enough to be bitched that way?

All lightsaber combatants have to adjust their grip on their blades as they engage in a duel. If a Force user doesn't need time to utilize an ability then they should be able to tear it out of his grip, or cause him to fumble it, or better yes, simply explode the hilt leaving Grievous weaponless.

With being thrown in the air, who's to say beings haven't tried? Grievous would still have his feet and sabers to defend himself, and 99.9% of Jedi wouldn't be powerful enough to fight him and hold onto him at the same time anyhow.

I said holding him in the air. Grievous wouldn't be able do anything to them at that point.

And why not? I thought you were just talking about how one doesn't need to focus their energies to carry out an action with the Force. Why would holding him in the air take more of their energy then augmenting themselves so that they could keep up with him in a lightsaber bout? Because that's beneficial to your argument? Lmao.

Keep giving me excuses I'll keep debunking them.

Ditto mate.

What? How about Dooku? We know as per the novel he instantly unleashed the choke against Kenobi - so fast Kenobi couldn't even throw up a barrier.

Faster then Obi Wan could throw up a sufficient barrier to protect against an attack by a Force user of Dooku's caliber doesn't mean instant.

To clarify before I respond, so you're saying Grievous could reach Mace in that situation faster than Obi-Wan can throw up a barrier, which is presumably much faster than a second?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
which is presumably much faster than a second?

Your presumption, not mine.

You also tend to believe Mace >= Dooku which would skew our views on how fast they could get a Force attack out in comparison to one another since I believe Dooku > Mace as a Force user.

Alright, then I'll ask this question.

How long, in the mind of Syndicate, would it take Grievous to reach Mace?

He's massively hypersonic so probably not long at all.

You do realize that's hyperbole? That's 3,400 meters per second.

For someone who dismisses quotes that are inconsistent, the fact you don't dismiss this one is... telling.

We see how fast Grievous is in OCW hallway scene, BTW. He's not that fast.

I don't think the speed of Force user's or beings that can compete with the speed of Force user's are exaggerated. I'm very much in favor of relativistic Sheev.

Grievous was dodging Force attacks which would've slowed him considerably. Also, a visual medium not showing a character moving at speeds they're shown or stated to be capable of doesn't mean the character isn't capable of that. It's the same with Vader, we don't assume he can only move as fast as a large man in a clunky suit because of the limitations of the OT.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64-3talVkUA&t=2m06s

And this?

Read above.

If Grievous runs hypersonic, he would have got to the other end of the room, taken Palpatine to the other room he just came from, jump out of the building, and be way on his way to his ship before the Jedi would have even pulled out their lightsabers.

The performance of the Jedi against Grievous and the magnaguards shows us their capabilities, not the other way around. Reverse scaling doesn't work.

But we see them all moving at the speed of human martial artists?

So is all mediums besides the select ones that give exaggerated speed descriptions them not using their full speed?

You tell me. Is Vader now slow as molasses?

The speed he shows in the OT is around his speed, yeah, give or take. That's consistent with Rebels too.

Granted I imagine he can move a lot faster running, but we see his saber speed there.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The speed he shows in the OT is around his speed, yeah, give or take.

We fundamentally disagree on this.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The speed he shows in the OT is around his speed, yeah, give or take. That's consistent with Rebels too.

Granted I imagine he can move a lot faster running, but we see his saber speed there.
lords of the sith disagrees with you

Unlikely.

"Your eyes can deceive you, don't trust them."