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Purely in terms of Force power.

1. Luke Skywalker
2. Darth Sidious
3. Yoda
4. Knightfall!Vader
5. Valkorion
6. Darth Nihilus
7. Darth Plagueis
8. Darth Krayt
9. Kyp Durron
10. Raynar Thul
11. Revan
12. Darth Caedus

1. Luke Skywalker
2. Darth Sidious
3. Valkorion
4.Yoda
5.Plageuis
6.Revan
7.Exar kun
8.Caedus
9.KF Vader
10.Krayt
11.Nihilus
12.Thul/Kyp

"Above Vader"

Are we ranking them by raw power, their skill/application of the Force, or both?

Raw Force strength.

So, their Force potential?

-

Raw Force power:

0. KF Vader
1. Luke
2. Kyp
3. Sidious
4. Yoda
5. Valkorion
6. Plagueis
7. Revan
8. Exar Kun
9. Krayt
10. Caedus
11. Thul

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
So, their Force potential? If that's what you think of it as (I don't, though, since certain chars like Kyp and Starkiller can have the potential to be insanely strong and lack the Force feats to back that potential up).

I just rank Knightfall!Vader over Valkorion on the basis of him being as strong as Darth Sidious per the RotS novelization (and GL's statement that "from then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor".

RotS Sidious and Yoda are right above Valk's league, given the Complete Visual Dictionary's statement that a post-Plagueis Darth Sidious was the most powerful dark-sider to have ever been Sith.

Given that Luke embodies Anakin's potential to be "twice as good as the Emperor," the only things that are really up for interpretation are 3-12, but I'd still love to hear everyone else's opinion.

In terms of raw power, Caedus and Unu'Thul should both be much higher.

Originally posted by Geistalt

Given that Luke embodies Anakin's potential to be "twice as good as the Emperor," the only things that are really up for interpretation are 3-12, but I'd still love to hear everyone else's opinion.

For the ten billionth time, no one ever said Luke "embodied" Anakin's full potential. Only that he could become the kind of overpowered apprentice that Sidious wanted, as opposed to Vader who was crippled.

'Cause that makes sense when you've got him ragdolling Caedus, whose command of the Force was greater than Vader's—enough to allow him to ragdoll Kyle.

in raw force strength revan isn't above vader

Originally posted by Geistalt
Purely in terms of Force power.

1. Luke Skywalker
2. Darth Sidious
3. Yoda
4. Knightfall!Vader
5. Valkorion
6. Darth Nihilus
7. Darth Plagueis
8. Darth Krayt
9. Kyp Durron
10. Raynar Thul
11. Revan
12. Darth Caedus
Vader is obv. first. At this point he still had all his potential, temporary ***** fit aside. Luke second. If he isn't already, Valkie might have potential to exceed Sheev (who knows what the hell BioWare is up to at this point?). I guess Yoda, Kyp, Revan and Caedus take the next four spots in unknown order. Plagueis and Krayt behind (maybe Krayt had potential to be even more powerful and be alongside Yoda and co.). No idea who the hell Raynar Thul is, and Nihilus is too hard to say.

This isn't potential; it's actualized power.

GL and the RotS novel placed Knightfall Vader on par with RotS Sidious.

Sidious: *fails to ragdoll Vader*
Luke: *ragdolls someone stronger than Vader*
NewGuy01: "Sidious is still stronger."

shup up

Originally posted by Geistalt
This isn't potential; it's actualized power.

GL and the RotS novel placed Knightfall Vader on par with RotS Sidious.

Sidious: *fails to ragdoll Vader*
Luke: *ragdolls someone stronger than Vader*
NewGuy01: "Sidious is still stronger."

Knightfall Vader was never placed on par with Sidious. There are roughly seven quotes stating Sidious was the most powerful, opposed to two that state Vader is the most powerful (it's obvious which one of the stances is right- the one backed up by seven sources opposed to the one backed by two) and Lucas was talking about Vader's potential.

You obviously haven't read the quotes (hint: they don't say he was stronger than RotS Sidious).





And even then, there's ambiguity as to whether or not he was exactly as strong or his point of view was skewed with hubris.

Originally posted by TenebrousWay
Raw Force power:

0. KF Vader
1. Luke
2. Kyp
3. Sidious
4. Yoda
5. Valkorion
6. Plagueis
7. Revan
8. Exar Kun
9. Krayt
10. Caedus
11. Thul

Some of the people in the list aren't above Vader...

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Some of the people in the list aren't above Vader...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWdd6_ZxX8c

Originally posted by thesithmaster
Knightfall Vader was never placed on par with Sidious. There are roughly seven quotes stating Sidious was the most powerful, opposed to two that state Vader is the most powerful (it's obvious which one of the stances is right- the one backed up by seven sources opposed to the one backed by two) and Lucas was talking about Vader's potential.
Anakins potential is >>> Sidious' tho lmfao

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Anakins potential is >>> Sidious' tho lmfao

Yes, his potential was Sidious+ before the thing, and he was as strong as the Emperor in the Force, but when he got crippled he wasn't as strong, and he was like Maul or Dooku as in that his potential was inferior to Palpatine's.

Originally posted by Geistalt
You obviously haven't read the quotes (hint: they don't say he was stronger than RotS Sidious).





And even then, there's ambiguity as to whether or not he was exactly as strong or his point of view was skewed with hubris.

Read the quote: it says Palpatine wanted someone who WOULD become more powerful than him (which means that he didn't have someone more powerful than him) but that his plan got screwed up by Obi-Wan, crippling Vader and making him like Maul+Dooku, guys whose potential was below Sidious'. He wasn't as strong as the Emperor in Force POTENTIAL which does not equate to actual power that is usable in combat. KF Vader definitely has more potential, but he hasn't unlocked it.

And what does the second one prove? It says Vader's power was growing, and that Vader knew how powerful Sidious was. Even if Vader claimed parity with Sidious his arrogant opinion matters nothing when seven quotes say Sidious was the most powerful as of ROTS.

The quotes I was talking about weren't the ones you posted. They labeled Vader's Force abilities as unparalleled and Vader as far more dangerous than anyone in the universe. However, seven other quotes say Sidious was the most powerful.

Originally posted by thesithmaster
Yes, his potential was Sidious+ before the thing, and he was as strong as the Emperor in the Force, but when he got crippled he wasn't as strong, and he was like Maul or Dooku as in that his potential was inferior to Palpatine's.
So...
1. Anakin's potential >>> Sidious'.
2. Iyo Sidious >> Anakin.

As strong as means equal to...to what should he refer, then? (Hint >>> =/= equal).

Originally posted by Geistalt

Sidious: *fails to ragdoll Vader*
Luke: *ragdolls someone stronger than Vader*
NewGuy01: "Sidious is still stronger."

Lol, nice strawman. I would be interested in seeing you provide an instance of Sidious trying and failing to TK Vader, though, because nothing like that comes to mind.

The end of RotJ.

Sidious never tried.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Sidious never tried.

This. Besides, Luke's never ragdolled Caedus in a combat situation either.

Not to mention that Sidious was pre-prime.

The arguments for Luke over Sidious in this thread are so dense.

But yes, Luke is more powerful, skilled, and versatile than Sidious.

Originally posted by thesithmaster
Read the quote: it says Palpatine wanted someone who WOULD become more powerful than him (which means that he didn't have someone more powerful than him)
No one ever said he was stronger than Sidious, the quote says after his injuries he was no longer "as strong as the Emperor", implying that they were equals before.

Originally posted by thesithmaster
Knightfall Vader was never placed on par with Sidious. There are roughly seven quotes stating Sidious was the most powerful, opposed to two that state Vader is the most powerful (it's obvious which one of the stances is right- the one backed up by seven sources opposed to the one backed by two) and Lucas was talking about Vader's potential.
How can you possibly conclude that "Anakin is as strong as sidious" is talking bout potential when Sidious has vastly inferior potential to Anakin?

You forgot to put Dooku on the list

Anyways, dumbassery aside, 1 through 5 look pretty set in stone.

5. Valkorion
6. Darth Nihilus
7. Darth Plagueis
8. Darth Krayt (for using Dark Transfer to resurrect himself and punching out Abeloth)
9. Kyp Durron
10. Raynar Thul
11. Revan
12. Darth Caedus

8-12 look up for debate, most of all.

I ought to make versus threads for them.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
How can you possibly conclude that "Anakin is as strong as sidious" is talking bout potential when Sidious has vastly inferior potential to Anakin?

If you're much better than someone, then you need to be at least as strong as them. Vader was no longer as strong as Sidious in the Force. He was weaker. What George was trying to say was that after Vader was crippled he lost lots of his Force potential, and that Vader was weaker than Sidious. So, no longer stronger than Sidious, not even as strong as Sidious. It's not rocket science.

Originally posted by thesithmaster
Knightfall Vader was never placed on par with Sidious.

Eh, not necessarily.

There's perhaps a dozen quotes stating Anakin's the most powerful Jedi. Considering Yoda has quotes too, it's fair to break even and put them on par.

We also have quotes (and feats) to demonstrate that Anakin is the greatest warrior of the era, in which Sidious isn't exempt.

With KF!Vader, we're dealing with an even more powerful version than Jedi Anakin, who was someone Yoda level in Force power and Yoda+ level in combat.

Everything considered, I think it's clear KF!Vader can trade blows with Sidious. Defeat him? Probably not, principally due to character differences, but it's close.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Eh, not necessarily.

There's perhaps a dozen quotes stating Anakin's the most powerful Jedi. Considering Yoda has quotes too, it's fair to break even and put them on par.

We also have quotes (and feats) to demonstrate that Anakin is the greatest warrior of the era, in which Sidious isn't exempt.

With KF!Vader, we're dealing with an even more powerful version than Jedi Anakin, who was someone Yoda level in Force power and Yoda+ level in combat.

Everything considered, I think it's clear KF!Vader can trade blows with Sidious. Defeat him? Probably not, principally due to character differences, but it's close.

A dozen? I counted, like, five. At best. Discounting maybe a character opinion or two. Yoda has more quotes. It's not fair to put them on par. More sources have Yoda as the most powerful, thus Yoda is the most powerful.

Anakin's feats do not match up to Sidious at all and we have two quotes that claim Anakin is the best. We have seven putting Sidious as the most powerful. Obviously, Sidious>Anakin. One or two quotes mean nothing when we have seven stating otherwise.

Anakin was not Yoda level in Force. Statements debunk this, feats do too. Yoda+level in combat is also ludicrous. They're equal in technical skill but bar one statement Yoda has much better feats physically- stalemating Sidious who moved faster than Anakin can see and has much better speed feats than Anakin. Even pre-prime. Yoda is above Anakin. In nearly if not every category relevant to combat.

And by trading blows, it depends. If it's clashing blades a few times, yes. Threatening Sidious? Having a close fight with him? Absolutely out of Vader's capabilities.

Hey sithmaster, you found that evidence for Zonakin being >Knightfall Anakin you said you had?

Mind posting it?

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Hey sithmaster, you found that evidence for Zonakin being >Knightfall Anakin you said you had?

Mind posting it?
Tbh, why would knightfall be above, zonakin.
He should of been conflicted the moment, he was named darth Vader, not to mention killing youngling.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Hey sithmaster, you found that evidence for Zonakin being >Knightfall Anakin you said you had?

Mind posting it?

I do have it but I'm keeping it for later. Just wait a bit more.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Hey sithmaster, you found that evidence for Zonakin being >Knightfall Anakin you said you had?

Mind posting it?
One beat Dooku, the other lost to Obi-Wan?

Originally posted by thesithmaster
If you're much better than someone, then you need to be at least as strong as them. Vader was no longer as strong as Sidious in the Force. He was weaker. What George was trying to say was that after Vader was crippled he lost lots of his Force potential, and that Vader was weaker than Sidious. So, no longer stronger than Sidious, not even as strong as Sidious. It's not rocket science.
Uh.. What? Lol

He was no longer as strong as Sidious, implying he was before. Not that complicated.

Originally posted by Rebel95
Uh.. What? Lol

He was no longer as strong as Sidious, implying he was before. Not that complicated.

In the Force, as in Force potential. Not actualized power.

Originally posted by thesithmaster
In the Force, as in Force potential. Not actualized power.
Where does it say that

Originally posted by Rebel95
Where does it say that
Nowhere. Additionally, Sithmaster implying that Anakin and Sidious having on par potential is laughable.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Nowhere. Additionally, Sithmaster implying that Anakin and Sidious having on par potential is laughable.

When did I imply this? I never said they were as strong. But looking at the context of the quote, it's clearly talking about potential, how Sidious wanted this guy who WOULD become more powerful than him, but how Obi-Wan stopped that on Mustafar, where Vader wasn't stronger than Sidious, heck- he was no longer even as strong as Sidious. It's not talking about actualized power.
This is becoming repetitive. You try to claim what I say is pathetic and laughable and that I "got schooled" just because I disagree with you, but yet again failed.

When it says that Sidious wanted a guy who would become more powerful than him, it's talking about Anakin's potential, yeah. But then he goes on to say that Anakin was no longer as strong as Sidious after his injuries, which is implying that Anakin was his equal before. It's not talking about his potential here because otherwise he would have said he was no longer stronger than Sidious.

That, plus GL said he could've been "twice as good as the Emperor."

Shitty lists.

Yoda and Palpatine (as of ROTS) do not seem capable of ravaging entire worlds with their powers. Palpatine wasn't even as of DE in a short span. Now some would assert that they are ranked above Darth Nihilus in the books but they fail to comprehend the bigger picture - they have relatively superior control and understanding of the ways of Force but they do not match Darth Nihilus in destructive applications of the Force because such power was the byproduct of his hunger condition and not his conventional strengths - JM Kriea clearly remarked that Darth Nihilus is not powerful in conventional ways but his condition sets him apart from others.

Abeloth and Valkorion are two Force-users who matched Darth Nihilus in destructive applications of the Force with sheer raw power.

People treating Valkorion like some conventional guy - is absurd.

bump

1.Knightfall Vader
2.Valkorion
3.Luke Skywalker.
4.Darth Sidious.
5.Yoda.
6.Plagueis.
7.Exar Kun.
8.Outlander.
9.Revan.
10.Vaylin
11.Krayt.
12.Caedus.

I could go further, and I'm not even including the Ancient Sith or Darth Malak.

Some of these folk aren't even above Vader to begin with.

Such as...?

By some, he means everyone except Luke and Sidious.

Goddamn.

Really interested to hear the case for this, tbh.

The fact that he's just above Karness Muur, being generous, doesn't bode well.

Originally posted by slayne
Goddamn.

Really interested to hear the case for this, tbh.

Interesting. A person who is actually willing to hear somebody else out instead of instantly flinging out condescending pseudo-smart mockery for not agreeing with their head canon. Good work, keep it up.

Basically it boils down to statements about Vader's power, not necessarily his feats, so it's understandably be hard for people to seriously consider the idea he's beyond the likes of Valkorion. After all, it is a psychological need for most people to have something shown rather than told to accept it, which is where the saying "Show, don't tell!" in storytelling originates from.

But alas, facts are facts, and we must entertain them as such without our bias or preconceived notions of what a Star Wars power hierarchy should be getting in the way. Conclusions should be based on the evidence; the evidence shouldn't be cherry-picked to suit the conclusion.

I'll make my case soon.

Originally posted by Azronger
Interesting. A person who is actually willing to hear somebody else out instead of instantly flinging out condescending pseudo-smart mockery for not agreeing with their head canon. Good work, keep it up.

Basically it boils down to statements about Vader's power, not necessarily his feats, so it's understandably be hard for people to seriously consider the idea he's beyond the likes of Valkorion. After all, it is a psychological need for most people to have something shown rather than told to accept it, which is where the saying "Show, don't tell!" in storytelling originates from.

But alas, facts are facts, and we must entertain them as such without our bias or preconceived notions of what a Star Wars power hierarchy should be getting in the way. Conclusions should be based on the evidence; the evidence shouldn't be cherry-picked to suit the conclusion.

I'll make my case soon.

I could buy Vader > the ancient sith except Valkorion, but some like Caedus are explicitly more powerful than Vader, and for others like Krayt it's pretty obvious to me given his performance against Abeloth. But I look forward to your case.

His case is about as real as the imaginary rebuttal he had for my Sidious nexus junkie post.

Sorry AP, I ain't gonna deal with your dishonest bullshit unless someone actually buys it - which nobody did

>Canon
>'bullshit'

The delusions are that strong, are they?

I guess Yoda and Dooku were evenly matched in their Force battle...that doesn't mean Yoda was going all out. He obviously wasn't given that he never initiates an attack against Dooku.

ngl I disagree with a lot of this but it's pretty well thought out

Thanks bunches