A Song of Ice and Fire armies vs the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings armies

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
How? The magic the LotR armies wield alone would destroy everything that Westeros has to offer, then we have beings like the Balrog, Smaug and Sauron. Tom Bombadil alone would sing off any army from westeros. Even if you take out the Maiar and Valar you are left with Galadriel, Elrond, Aragorn, Glorfindel. The last two capable to destroy the 10 most skilled fighters from westeros alone. This is a horrible mismatch. ASoIaF is low magic, low fantasy, it's focus lies somewhere else. The dragons are small stupid beasts compared to the likes of Smaug or Ancalagon and the undead slow and vulnerable compared to the ghost army that Aragorn commanded...

Really, there is not much to discuss.

But there is where you are wrong!

We possible outnumber ALL LoTR troops by 3! We got 3 Dragons. We got better weapons (100s of Scorpions which anyone could bring down smaug.Hobbit and LoTR has only 1 Dark Arrow! How will you bring down 3 dragons?) We got Wildfire too!!! Hundreds of Thousands of those! No matter how though your troops down they will BURN DOWN.

We got THOUSANDS of Boats. LoTR has been seen with none! We got better Leaders! LOTR is just a battle in where Sauron manages to defeat most of the troops because he OUTNUMBERS. In this CASE we outnumber. We got Tywin Lannister! No commander from LoTR would even come close to him in the battlefield!!

MAGIC? ARE YOU SURE ABOUT THAT?

We are talking about the ENTIRE ASOIF HERE! HAHAHAHA!

OKAY LET ME INTRODUCE YOU OUR MAGIC.

We got the White Walkers! They will raise the dead! Both your troops and mine.

We got the Greenseers and Bran! I have eyes everywhere!!!!

We got the Children of the Forest! Their magic is strong enough to create shields and craft powerful enchantments.

We got the Red Witches! They can cast any dark magic. They can see the future through the flames. This would be a HUGE advantage on the battlefield! More intel for the MIGHT TYWIN LANNISTER. They would know LoTR exact moves and strategies.

We got the Faceless Man! They are powerful assassins. Could kill anyone without they even knowing they were there!

We got the Warlocks. They are powerful magical beings from Essos.

We got the Dothraki Warlocks...Thousands of Thousands of them...Better Horsemen than any of LoTR.

I would say you guys got every odd against you.

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by StealthRanger
Glorfindel could probably slaughter any army from Westeros solo

Jaime Lannister could defeat Glorfindel. I doubt he is a better swordsmen than him.

FinalAnswer

Gentle reminder for your illiterate self Lord of the Rings outnumbers aSoIaF.

ScreamPaste

Not enough Elf wank in this thread.

The armies of Middle Earth aren't just bigger, they're better. Elves are Better Than You, and essentially super human. Doing shit like walking on top of snow and leaving no tracks by just being that good at sneaking. Named Elves were some of Tolkien's true "mortal" badasses. Depending how far back you go they can be entirely outlandish in their accomplishments.

Twenty good Elves > Twenty good men.

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
Gentle reminder for your illiterate self Lord of the Rings outnumbers aSoIaF.

I am aware of both Armies numbers. And I KNOW GOT Outnumbers here.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Not enough Elf wank in this thread.

The armies of Middle Earth aren't just bigger, they're better. Elves are Better Than You, and essentially super human. Doing shit like walking on top of snow and leaving no tracks by just being that good at sneaking. Named Elves were some of Tolkien's true "mortal" badasses. Depending how far back you go they can be entirely outlandish in their accomplishments.

Twenty good Elves > Twenty good men.

Yeah? I doubt that. First of all, there are humans in LoTR. And they are very powerful!

Now don't come and tell me your humans are superhumans, cause that would be stupid. If human's armies can face Orcs and all of Murdul's Forces then why woun't GOT?

Now regarding strategy and dicipline. GOT got better soldiers and more soldiers.

You guys are on the losing edge.

ScreamPaste

Until you can source any of your claims I'm going to have to disregard them as just that.

The North is the largest kingdom in Westeros if the maps I've seen are accurate, and the only number given so far is that they could summon perhaps 45 000 men. That's simply not enough. You could multiply that by the seven kingdoms and whatnot, but 1. That'd be unfounded since several of those kingdoms are smaller. 2. You'd still be vastly outnumbered due to the combined forces of Mordor, Isengard, and the Kingdoms of Men.

The television show says something about the army of the dead being a hundred thousand or something, but it takes those guys seven seasons to walk the same distance Littlefinger rides in a day. estahuh

Also wights are pansies.

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Until you can source any of your claims I'm going to have to disregard them as just that.

The North is the largest kingdom in Westeros if the maps I've seen are accurate, and the only number given so far is that they could summon perhaps 45 000 men. That's simply not enough. You could multiply that by the seven kingdoms and whatnot, but 1. That'd be unfounded since several of those kingdoms are smaller. 2. You'd still be vastly outnumbered due to the combined forces of Mordor, Isengard, and the Kingdoms of Men.

The television show says something about the army of the dead being a hundred thousand or something, but it takes those guys seven seasons to walk the same distance Littlefinger rides in a day. estahuh

Also wights are pansies.

Okay okay okay.

Look. The North is one of the largest kingdoms. But his armada is one of the smallest, and least powerful.

ASOIF Kingdoms are larger than LoTR.

Do you want to talk about numbers? We could do that.

Name me LoTR troops and forces. Ill name you mines.

NemeBro

So I can't help but notice that the little needle-dicked retard still hasn't addressed a single quote from the very books he is arguing against in my post, which isn't surprising. My post is unassailable.

I didn't plan on doing any debating today because the approaching hurricane has made my internet very unreliable, but it won't take much time to discredit a post with no effort put into it.

I take it you haven't actually read my post. Until you do and address the feats I laid out within, you have no leg to stand on in this argument. You'll still lose, but at least people might need to actually address the baseless claims you are throwing out.

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Until you can source any of your claims I'm going to have to disregard them as just that.

The North is the largest kingdom in Westeros if the maps I've seen are accurate, and the only number given so far is that they could summon perhaps 45 000 men. That's simply not enough. You could multiply that by the seven kingdoms and whatnot, but 1. That'd be unfounded since several of those kingdoms are smaller. 2. You'd still be vastly outnumbered due to the combined forces of Mordor, Isengard, and the Kingdoms of Men.

The television show says something about the army of the dead being a hundred thousand or something, but it takes those guys seven seasons to walk the same distance Littlefinger rides in a day. estahuh

Also wights are pansies.

You would do well to remember that Sauron's Total forces is of 200K (Peter Jackson said that). And it is also known that the good guys' army was lower than these.

That would put LoTR armya arround 400K approx.

But since the Hobbit films were included that could raise up to 500K maximum.

Am i right?

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by NemeBro
So I can't help but notice that the little needle-dicked retard still hasn't addressed a single quote from the very books he is arguing against in my post, which isn't surprising. My post is unassailable.

I didn't plan on doing any debating today because the approaching hurricane has made my internet very unreliable, but it won't take much time to discredit a post with no effort put into it.

I take it you haven't actually read my post. Until you do and address the feats I laid out within, you have no leg to stand on in this argument. You'll still lose, but at least people might need to actually address the baseless claims you are throwing out.

Read down calculation of LoTR armies and approve it.

Also am gonna read it now only to DISCLAIM most of your claims. I didn't intended to because it is TOO LONG and since i know how this will play out i will most likely waste my time.

Leave the insults for yourself please. Else i will contact a moderator.

NemeBro

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
You would do well to remember that Sauron's Total forces is of 200K (Peter Jackson said that) Peter Jackson's word means less than nothing here. This is book versions.

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by NemeBro
Peter Jackson's word means less than nothing here. This is book versions.

First of all, no. His words mean a lot. The OP was refering to the Movies. So, that it is.

I doubt the Numbers in the Movies and in the Books differ from one another! That WOULD MAKE NO SENSE! ASOIF and GOT shows' numbers don't differ that much. So i am not gonna take it as if PETER JACKSON'S WORDS were incorrect. I believe he gave an accurate approximation!

Josh_Alexander

I've made my researches and I've Reached to the Conclusion that Sauron's Armies shouldn't exceed 200K!! A lot of internet Webpages support this. I will give several links to support my claim:

https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/123528/how-large-were-sarumans-and-saurons-armies

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/sarumans-army-vs-saurons-army-movie-versions-1570408/

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/sarumans-army-vs-saurons-army-movie-versions-1570408/

http://www.lotrplaza.com/archives/index.php?Archive=First%20Age&TID=157027

As you may notice. These are forums and there is back up evidence. Also some claim that the 200k Troops is an exaggeration and that the numbers should actually be less than 100K.

To put it fair I SHALL ASSUME SAURON has 150K.

NOW! Throughout the Movies and Books it was Know that Sauron's Army OUTNUMBERED that of the ALLIES. So the Allies would probably have 100K soldiers or less.

That adds up to 250K soldiers.

Adding that to the HOBBIT FILMS the total number of troops should be arround 350-400K strong. Then just add the catapults and other weaponry.

HAVING SAID THAT!

ASOIF DEFINELTY OUTNUMBERS LOTR!!!

Only the ARMY OF THE DEAD can equal the number of LoTR armies!

I would say that ASOIF got 2X or more the number of troops LoTR has.

I can give you exact numbers if you wish.....Now. Any commander would know that he/she is facing CERTAIN DOOM against twice numbers....

I believe ASOIF got this won.

StealthRanger

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Jaime Lannister could defeat Glorfindel. I doubt he is a better swordsmen than him.

Glorfindel MAD'd a Balrog, same Balrogs destroy mountainsides by falling on them. He would effortlessly fodderise any GoT character, Lannister included

Aragorn too would fodderise Lannister

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by StealthRanger
Glorfindel MAD'd a Balrog, same Balrogs destroy mountainsides by falling on them. He would effortlessly fodderise any GoT character, Lannister included

Aragorn too would fodderise Lannister

Where is that seen in the movie? Or did i skip a movie in where i didn't saw that?

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by StealthRanger
Glorfindel MAD'd a Balrog, same Balrogs destroy mountainsides by falling on them. He would effortlessly fodderise any GoT character, Lannister included

Aragorn too would fodderise Lannister

Also Glorfindel is from the storyline of the above times? Or is he from before the events of the Hobbit?

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Based off of Quan's Movie thread Here but I seek to broaden the scope.

I wanted to include the armies seen throughout the series AND the books of both series.

Won't you participate in the discussion?

StealthRanger

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
First of all! Aragon has faced brainless stupid foes. Jaime Lannister wouldn't even struggle in cutting that proud neck open.

You're an idiot

If he can destroy a mountainside, an army of humans with medieval weapons won't concern him

Unless you can show us how powerful they are, this means nothing

How powerful are the undead?

Feats or GFTO

TYPING IN CAPS LOCK MAKES ME FEEL INTELLIGENT TOO!

Yeah, because he was separated from the one ring. Plus that was in the movies only, so, doesn't count

Three dragons with piss feats compared to Smaug, much less Glaurung (sp?) or Ancalagon

Meaningless tripe

Except Smaug vastly outclasses any dragon or beast in GoT

Yeah, typing in all caps doesn't increase your credibility. It makes you sound like an idiot

Except, those are merely legends that are just that, legends. LOTR has legit showings of this shit. It's pretty much something alot of Maiar could replicate anyways

Oh look, more legends. Maybe coming up with some actual feats next time would be nice

And because Sauron is as powerful as Osse who moved entire islands and Morgoth is more powerful than that. Melkor (original Morgoth) is the most powerful of the Valar, all of which are continent busters

None of this is remotely worth talking about next to the LoTR higher tier beings, much less the likes of the Valar

Hell, none of that would pose a threat to the First Age Elf Kingdoms or Numenor

Except they're more or less legends that are just that, legends. Even if they were legit, doesn't stack up to the Valar who are continent busters

Doesn't matter, LOTR horrendously outclasses GoT regardless

Maybe learn how to debate, get a sense of scale and learn how to use English

StealthRanger

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
I've made my researches and I've Reached to the Conclusion that Sauron's Armies shouldn't exceed 200K!! A lot of internet Webpages support this. I will give several links to support my claim:

https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/123528/how-large-were-sarumans-and-saurons-armies

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/sarumans-army-vs-saurons-army-movie-versions-1570408/

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/sarumans-army-vs-saurons-army-movie-versions-1570408/

http://www.lotrplaza.com/archives/index.php?Archive=First%20Age&TID=157027

As you may notice. These are forums and there is back up evidence. Also some claim that the 200k Troops is an exaggeration and that the numbers should actually be less than 100K.

Oh look, more movie stuff. This is the book versions you god damn mong!

Besides, maybe post the evidence rather than linking forums

Sauron's armies alone rank at 200,000 or so

If the biggest kingdom has 45,000 troops tops like I've heard, then am afraid they're kind of scrooged here

Proof or GTFO

Well, let's see them then. Not that it matters when you have characters who horribly outclass the entire setting in terms of raw power

That's because you're not a very smart person

StealthRanger

EDIT: Nvm

StealthRanger

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Where is that seen in the movie? Or did i skip a movie in where i didn't saw that?

EXCEPT THIS IS THE BOOK VERSIONS YOU FUDGING MONG!

Glorfindel is from the Silmarillion. Or at least it's one of his appearances

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by StealthRanger
EXCEPT THIS IS THE BOOK VERSIONS YOU FUDGING MONG!

Glorfindel is from the Silmarillion. Or at least it's one of his appearances

The OP didnt state that. This is all Versus forum. Not Books versus forum! This is ASOIF vs LoTR seen on screen! Unless the OP stated book versions for both.

Either way. We Outnumber. Glorfield iant inmortal. He will die sooner or later. And when he does we will have him in our army!

StealthRanger

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
The OP didnt state that. This is all Versus forum. Not Books versus forum!

Say what?

Read above

Still fodder regardless

Technically he can't die from age wink

Nobody in GoT can threaten him

Yeah, we're not a roleplaying board. You can stop referring to GoT as "yours" or "ours"

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by StealthRanger
Oh look, more movie stuff. This is the book versions you god damn mong!

Besides, maybe post the evidence rather than linking forums

Sauron's armies alone rank at 200,000 or so

If the biggest kingdom has 45,000 troops tops like I've heard, then am afraid they're kind of scrooged here

Proof or GTFO

Well, let's see them then. Not that it matters when you have characters who horribly outclass the entire setting in terms of raw power

That's because you're not a very smart person

Forums and webpages are EVIDENCE so long this post evidencd themselves. See am not that wrong! Sauron is arround 200K OR LESS.

Okay you give me your numbers and then ill give you mine.

I will post evidence so you see am not lying.

Okay. First of all Saurons army is 200K.

In the Hobbit Movies combined forces should lie at 100K!

What else?

Darkstorm Zero

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Won't you participate in the discussion?

Unlike most people, I believe having the OP actively involved in the discussion is kinda... counterproductive.

I will be here to clarify the OP, or answer questions if I can. But I don't want to skew the thread by rule of OP fiat if I can help it.

For example, to clarify, the movies AND the books are valid sources. Not just the movies. But, since the books are the original sources for both series, they do take precedent over the movies should there be a conflict of canon.

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Unlike most people, I believe having the OP actively involved in the discussion is kinda... counterproductive.

I will be here to clarify the OP, or answer questions if I can. But I don't want to skew the thread by rule of OP fiat if I can help it.

For example, to clarify, the movies AND the books are valid sources. Not just the movies. But, since the books are the original sources for both series, they do take precedent over the movies should there be a conflict of canon.

Okay. Then i will be able to mix books and novels.

Darkstorm Zero

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Okay. Then i will be able to mix books and novels.

That is correct.

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
That is correct.

Okay i well blend both Series and Books then. Thanks for the clarification.

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by StealthRanger
Say what?

Read above

Still fodder regardless

Technically he can't die from age wink

Nobody in GoT can threaten him

Yeah, we're not a roleplaying board. You can stop referring to GoT as "yours" or "ours" \

Dragons could. White Walkers could. Red Priests could. Bran could. Greenseers could. And we out number. Any arrow could find his heart. Any spear. He is immortal to time not to physical harm.

Josh_Alexander

As I said before. Sauron army=200K the most.

Sauron Army>All other armies combined

LOTR Army = 400K the most (Sauron + Allies)

Hobbit Battle of the 5 Armies = 100K the most

TOTAL ARMY: 500K the most.

NOW I WILL GIVE YOU A SMALL PEAK AT ASOIF ARMIES:

The White Walkers had not shown themselves in Westeros for 8000 years!!!! That means that they got 8000 years to gather bodies for their armies.

In several instances in both Series and Books their army has been classified as 100s of Thousands!

The King-in-the-North had 100K wildlings when he travel to attack the wall!

Mance Ryder also claimed that most of the Wildling's Villages were being wipped by the Walkers!

The WW's army is believed to be between 300K to 700K! Who knows maybe even more! 8000 years of gathering is A LOT OF TIME.

Let's say that they are 500K they have already equaled all of LOTR troops alone!

Darkstorm Zero

Just to help out a little for all people trying to speak on the subject...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle-earth_armies_and_hosts
http://www.thetolkienforum.com/index.php?threads/armies-of-middle-earth.4431/

Please keep in mind that Tolkien never gave specific numbers for military sizes. That being said, I don't think any army in Planetos actually outnumbers the hosts of Mordor. The Undead Army comes the closest, but Orks are said to multiply very fast, and the Mordor hosts alone filled out the entirety of the fields of Udun, and the Gorgoroth Plateau in Mordor.

StealthRanger

Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if the First Age Elf Kingdoms or the Kingdom of Numenor could swarm ASoIaF

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by StealthRanger
Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if the First Age Elf Kingdoms or the Kingdom of Numenor could swarm ASoIaF

You still haven't given me your numbers. Am waiting. If those elfs struggle with Sauron's Orcs i don't see how they will do ANY BETTER against Twice those numbers!

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Just to help out a little for all people trying to speak on the subject...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle-earth_armies_and_hosts
http://www.thetolkienforum.com/index.php?threads/armies-of-middle-earth.4431/

Please keep in mind that Tolkien never gave specific numbers for military sizes. That being said, I don't think any army in Planetos actually outnumbers the hosts of Mordor. The Undead Army comes the closest, but Orks are said to multiply very fast, and the Mordor hosts alone filled out the entirety of the fields of Udun, and the Gorgoroth Plateau in Mordor.

That's right. In the Books specific numbers weren't given for Sauron's Troops. But Peter Jackson said he believed 200K was the approximate number! Now would the books differ from that number? I doubt so.

Else Tolkien would have spoken against those numbers. So it can be assume Tolkien agreed by the Numbers given by Jackson.

Isn't Like the movie is gonna say 200K and the books is gonna have 400K. Such discrepancies don't occur. And i don't expect this to be such a case.

ScreamPaste

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
That's right. In the Books specific numbers weren't given for Sauron's Troops. But Peter Jackson said he believed 200K was the approximate number! Now would the books differ from that number? I doubt so.

Else Tolkien would have spoken against those numbers. So it can be assume Tolkien agreed by the Numbers given by Jackson.

Isn't Like the movie is gonna say 200K and the books is gonna have 400K. Such discrepancies don't occur. And i don't expect this to be such a case.
no expression

J.R.R. Tolkien has been dead since the ****ing 70's.

FinalAnswer

I can't help but notice that this guy wants to involve the forces before the time of the actual book.

Okay.

LotR now has Melkor at the height of his power, who is literally a walking volcano that eclipses Mt. Everest and annihilates continents in his battles with the Valar, who literally set the planet on fire, then upended the oceans to flood the lands. Who's armies numbered in the millions upon millions.

GJ trying to argue Low Fantasy against that tho thumb up

AuraAngel

He still agreed to those numbers obviously. awesome

Not sure why you guys are humoring this dude.

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
no expression

J.R.R. Tolkien has been dead since the ****ing 70's.

OH ****! I forgot that laughing out loud

Still. There is no reason to believe that Jackson was wrong. What would he gain by reducing Sauron's numbers? Nothing.

As i said 200k it is.

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
I can't help but notice that this guy wants to involve the forces before the time of the actual book.

Okay.

LotR now has Melkor at the height of his power, who is literally a walking volcano that eclipses Mt. Everest and annihilates continents in his battles with the Valar, who literally set the planet on fire, then upended the oceans to flood the lands. Who's armies numbered in the millions upon millions.

GJ trying to argue Low Fantasy against that tho thumb up

Our books aren't done yet. We still got to see Bran's full powers.

He can travel to the past. All he got to do is drive Mordor crazy or Sauron and change the storyline.

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
LotR now has Melkor at the height of his power, who is literally a walking volcano that eclipses Mt. Everest and annihilates continents in his battles with the Valar, who literally set the planet on fire, then upended the oceans to flood the lands. Who's armies numbered in the millions upon millions.

Isn't that after the events of LoTR???

If you read the topic of the thread is ASOIF vs The Hobit and LOTR armies.

Those events are after LoTR. They fall outside the storyline of this thread. I don't think they are valid Information...else the OP states otherwise, and in which case i was considering WHOLE DIFFERENT THINGS.

Those books are sequels to LoTR. I BELIEVE THIS THREAD IS LIMITTED TO THE END OF LOTR SEEN ON SCREEN. WHERE BILBO DESTROYED THE RING. ANY EVENT FURTHER THAN THAT SHOULDN'T TAKE PART.

At least i question it should.

Darkstorm Zero

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
OH ****! I forgot that laughing out loud

Still. There is no reason to believe that Jackson was wrong. What would he gain by reducing Sauron's numbers? Nothing.

As i said 200k it is.

No. Because Jackson had to scale back for the budget of the film. You have to remember, this was a host of a size not seen since the second age at the very least, when Numenor was at the height of it's power, and the Elves had recovered enough from fighting Morgoth as to reclaim some of their former glory. Thats a force closer to multiple millions, as the orcs alone blanketed more than half of Mordor at full strength. That is a force you can see from SPACE.

As for the timeframe, I never did exclude the Simarilion, because it contains the lore needed for the setting, but yeah, nothing outside of the timeframes set by the 4 main novels and the 6 movies. For ASOIAF, they get their lorebooks for lore, but timescale is the TV series and Main Novels.

Darkstorm Zero

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Our books aren't done yet. We still got to see Bran's full powers.

He can travel to the past. All he got to do is drive Mordor crazy or Sauron and change the storyline.

The more likely event is that Bran will be rendered catatonic my an evil Maiar's dark power and desire. Sauron's mental capability is one that renders the Night King's a paltry plaything.

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
No. Because Jackson had to scale back for the budget of the film. You have to remember, this was a host of a size not seen since the second age at the very least, when Numenor was at the height of it's power, and the Elves had recovered enough from fighting Morgoth as to reclaim some of their former glory. Thats a force closer to multiple millions, as the orcs alone blanketed more than half of Mordor at full strength. That is a force you can see from SPACE.

As for the timeframe, I never did exclude the Simarilion, because it contains the lore needed for the setting, but yeah, nothing outside of the timeframes set by the 4 main novels and the 6 movies. For ASOIAF, they get their lorebooks for lore, but timescale is the TV series and Main Novels.

That makes no sense. They used Effects. Isnt like they hired 200K persons for the film lol.

I made my researchs. And in no website i saw 1million orcs!

As i said and i refrain! I dont expect the movie and book numbers to change drastically! It would be stupid for the movie director to say 200k and the book 2M!

It is very unlikely! And not Logical, ethical, or wise.

Once more. I stick to 200K.

Darkstorm Zero

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
That makes no sense. They used Effects. Isnt like they hired 200K persons for the film lol.

I made my researchs. And in no website i saw 1million orcs!

As i said and i refrain! I dont expect the movie and book numbers to change drastically! It would be stupid for the movie director to say 200k and the book 2M!

It is very unlikely! And not Logical, ethical, or wise.

Once more. I stick to 200K.

And you think those effects do not cost money?

I'm giving you an estimate based on the size of the Udun and Gorgoroth Plateaus. Because those forces stretched back as far as to the base of Barad-Dur.

Take a look at the map
http://tolkienists.ru/_ph/6/191955756.jpg

The force that surrounded Aragorn's army in the last battle LITERALLY was only the front lines. Jackson's line that we only SEE about 200k orcs, not including trolls or other creatures does not cover that which we do not see.

From that perspective, we can argue for multiple millions for Sauron's entire force, if we include the forces from Rhun, Khand, Harad, Umbar, the Goblins in Moria, and the remnants of Angmar.

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
And you think those effects do not cost money?

I'm giving you an estimate based on the size of the Udun and Gorgoroth Plateaus. Because those forces stretched back as far as to the base of Barad-Dur.

Take a look at the map

The force that surrounded Aragorn's army in the last battle LITERALLY was only the front lines. Jackson's line that we only SEE about 200k orcs, not including trolls or other creatures does not cover that which we do not see.

From that perspective, we can argue for multiple millions for Sauron's entire force, if we include the forces from Rhun, Khand, Harad, Umbar, the Goblins in Moria, and the remnants of Angmar.

OHH I SEE!

you are taking the troops seen when Sauron was in his physical form!!!! Is that right? You are talking about the Battle that occured 2000 years prior to LoTR? Lord of the rings is based in the 3rd Age. The troops of Sauron aren't even NEAR to what they were originally in the 2nd Age.

As i said. In the Movie Sauron has 200K and should in the books too..NOW! If you are considering Sauron's original force..The One that was fought by Isildur and the other elfs then i believe it should be more.

Is that the case?

And no. Just by using a map and how the orcs were placed won't give you numbers. You are speculating there and id rather stick to words say by the Director than perspectives. 200K is more canon than 2M or more.

Also, that could have been a Hyperbole.

And no. The cost of 2M and 2K isn't much. Isn't like you will pay 2M for 2M orcs and 200K for 200k Orcs...Prices won't differ. Effects can give you any number without much change in price. Unless you give a detail approach at 2M orcs which then is different. But again LoTR movies never did this evein to their 200K orcs.

That makes no sense at all. I am still sticking to 200k. Any webpage on the internet is gonna give you numbers close to that. As i said, i did my research. Never saw 1M in a single page.

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
And you think those effects do not cost money?

I'm giving you an estimate based on the size of the Udun and Gorgoroth Plateaus. Because those forces stretched back as far as to the base of Barad-Dur.

Take a look at the map
http://tolkienists.ru/_ph/6/191955756.jpg

The force that surrounded Aragorn's army in the last battle LITERALLY was only the front lines. Jackson's line that we only SEE about 200k orcs, not including trolls or other creatures does not cover that which we do not see.

From that perspective, we can argue for multiple millions for Sauron's entire force, if we include the forces from Rhun, Khand, Harad, Umbar, the Goblins in Moria, and the remnants of Angmar.

Am asking cause that battle scene was seen in the beginning of LoTR. So i think you are trying to include those troops in this thread...Or am i wrong?

Darkstorm Zero

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
OHH I SEE!

you are taking the troops seen when Sauron was in his physical form!!!! Is that right? You are talking about the Battle that occured 2000 years prior to LoTR? Lord of the rings is based in the 3rd Age. The troops of Sauron aren't even NEAR to what they were originally in the 2nd Age.

As i said. In the Movie Sauron has 200K and should in the books too..NOW! If you are considering Sauron's original force..The One that was fought by Isildur and the other elfs then i believe it should be more.

Is that the case?

And no. Just by using a map and how the orcs were placed won't give you numbers. You are speculating there and id rather stick to words say by the Director than perspectives. 200K is more canon than 2M or more.

Also, that could have been a Hyperbole.

And no. The cost of 2M and 2K isn't much. Isn't like you will pay 2M for 2M orcs and 200K for 200k Orcs...Prices won't differ. Effects can give you any number without much change in price. Unless you give a detail approach at 2M orcs which then is different. But again LoTR movies never did this evein to their 200K orcs.

That makes no sense at all. I am still sticking to 200k. Any webpage on the internet is gonna give you numbers close to that. As i said, i did my research. Never saw 1M in a single page.

No. Thats the battle of the Last Alliance. I'm talking about the final battle Aragorn lead out of Gondor after the battle of the Pelenor Fields. The Last Battle occurred at the Black Gate of the Morannon.

Do not confuse the two.

And Sauron had more troops in that battle than what was seen in the last Alliance, because what we saw in the movie of that fight, it was Sauron's last gambit for power, where he was forced to physically fight himself. Right on the foot of Mt. Doom itself.

Are you a professional Movie CG Animator? No? CG is not cheap, especially good quality CG. Unless you know something I don't about proffessional CG work, I am telling you, the more complex and detailed the CG, the more expensive it is going to be. Entire movie budgets can get blown on CG, Just ask Lucas, or Cameron.

You don't get to decide the numbers on your own. I have done the research for years myself, without relying on websites and research of other people. Jackson's comment ONLY referenced what we see on screen, not the entire force. Far from the entire force. And that was only for the Last Battle at the Morannon. It doesn't account for the forces sent to the Pelennor Fields. And it doesn't account for Rhun, Khand, Harad Moria and Angmar. Each of those is a major threat themselves. Harad's numbers alone dwarf Gondor's, and that is just by sheer virtue of the size of their landmass.

ScreamPaste

Good CGI is extremely expensive.

FinalAnswer

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Our books aren't done yet. We still got to see Bran's full powers.

He can travel to the past. All he got to do is drive Mordor crazy or Sauron and change the storyline.

"B-But Bran might do something!"

Saruman, an angelic being that personally knew Sauron, was corrupted from mentally communicating with him, Sauron would devour Bran's mind if he tried to mess with him.

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
No. Thats the battle of the Last Alliance. I'm talking about the final battle Aragorn lead out of Gondor after the battle of the Pelenor Fields. The Last Battle occurred at the Black Gate of the Morannon.

Do not confuse the two.

And Sauron had more troops in that battle than what was seen in the last Alliance, because what we saw in the movie of that fight, it was Sauron's last gambit for power, where he was forced to physically fight himself. Right on the foot of Mt. Doom itself.

Are you a professional Movie CG Animator? No? CG is not cheap, especially good quality CG. Unless you know something I don't about proffessional CG work, I am telling you, the more complex and detailed the CG, the more expensive it is going to be. Entire movie budgets can get blown on CG, Just ask Lucas, or Cameron.

You don't get to decide the numbers on your own. I have done the research for years myself, without relying on websites and research of other people. Jackson's comment ONLY referenced what we see on screen, not the entire force. Far from the entire force. And that was only for the Last Battle at the Morannon. It doesn't account for the forces sent to the Pelennor Fields. And it doesn't account for Rhun, Khand, Harad Moria and Angmar. Each of those is a major threat themselves. Harad's numbers alone dwarf Gondor's, and that is just by sheer virtue of the size of their landmass.

Am talking about the second age war. Sauron jad more numbers that he did in the third.

And once more! 200k it is! Because those are numbers given by the LoTR director! They are valid. If the books would have given different numbers then i could disregard Jacksons numbers. But since your numbers are not proven by any text nor website, then the only numbers to stick to are Jackson's.

No matter how much research is that, you will never have more info than the net. The net seems to agree on 200k. So 200k it is for Sauron.

Lets not argue this point. Evidence points to 200k. Am not gonna give you more than that.

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Good CGI is extremely expensive.

Ik. But the excuse isnt valid. 200k werent said just to reduce cost of production...that makes NO sense. Jacksonncould have said 50Million and that wouldnt change much in the cost. The excuse isnt valid.

200k is the official number. No more than that.

StealthRanger

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
You still haven't given me your numbers. Am waiting. If those elfs struggle with Sauron's Orcs i don't see how they will do ANY BETTER against Twice those numbers!

Third Age Elves are a sad shadow of the First Age Elves. And Gondolin easily eclipses Minas Tirith and Minas Morgul

Speaking of Third Age Elves, Galadriel destroyed Dol-Guldur with her magic. And she is so powerful that nothing short of Sauron showing up and kicking ass would defeat her

As for Numenor, at their apex they were a multinational empire that outclassed Sauron's army in every conceivable way, including numbers. Plus according to "Lost Roads", they have steel hulled, steam powered ships that can fire large napalm bombs (or essentially their version of mini-nukes), or something like that. Of course, Lost Roads is kind of dubious canon so, make of that what you will. Regardless, they'd effortlessly romp GoT

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
"B-But Bran might do something!"

Saruman, an angelic being that personally knew Sauron, was corrupted from mentally communicating with him, Sauron would devour Bran's mind if he tried to mess with him.

Not mental communicatiom. Greenseeing and Mental communication isnt the same.

Sauron will just hear voices and dont know who is talking to him. Greenseeing is like an invisible person talking. Isnt like Bran gets literaly in his head.

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by StealthRanger
Third Age Elves are a sad shadow of the First Age Elves. And Gondolin easily eclipses Minas Tirith and Minas Morgul

Speaking of Third Age Elves, Galadriel destroyed Dol-Guldur with her magic. And she is so powerful that nothing short of Sauron showing up and kicking ass would defeat her

As for Numenor, at their apex they were a multinational empire that outclassed Sauron's army in every conceivable way, including numbers. Plus according to "Lost Roads", they have steel hulled, steam powered ships that can fire large napalm bombs (or essentially their version of mini-nukes), or something like that. Of course, Lost Roads is kind of dubious canon so, make of that what you will. Regardless, they'd effortlessly romp GoT

OP has given the timelines of this thread. Stick to them please. Anything after the destruction of the ring of power is outside this thread.

StealthRanger

Gotta love how this guy says Sauron's entire military is 200k and tries to act like some kind of authoritah

And wtf am I reading? Drive Mordor crazy? Ahahahahaha, oh jesus that's as golden as the time on (the now dead and irrelevant) FactPile when someone suggested using biological warfare against the Tyranids

StealthRanger

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
OP has given the timelines of this thread. Stick to them please. Anything after the destruction of the ring of power is outside this thread.

You so realise that First Age elves and Numenorean Empire are well before the War of the Ring, right?

The again, you are mentally retarded so.... thumb up

Darkstorm Zero

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Am talking about the second age war. Sauron jad more numbers that he did in the third.

But I'm not talking about the 2nd Age at all! You brought that up, not me.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
And once more! 200k it is! Because those are numbers given by the LoTR director! They are valid. If the books would have given different numbers then i could disregard Jacksons numbers. But since your numbers are not proven by any text nor website, then the only numbers to stick to are Jackson's.

The official numbers are Tolkien's, not Jackson's. Jackson only DEPICTED 200K He never said that that was the entire force. (I just watched the commentary on my Special Edition.)

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
No matter how much research is that, you will never have more info than the net. The net seems to agree on 200k. So 200k it is for Sauron.

I disagree. Provide more proof than what I said above yourself, and not some rando's word.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Lets not argue this point. Evidence points to 200k. Am not gonna give you more than that.

I can force the OP to change that if I was so inclined to cheat, Like I said, you don't get to decide your opponents numbers. Thats not fair at all. Not to mention the officiality of your source is dubious without context, which as I said, Jackson references only what he showed, not the entire force. The Orc lines were shown to stretch back beyond human sight.

https://i.resimyukle.xyz/Say9K.png
http://www.tolkiengateway.net/w/images/4/4d/The_Lord_of_the_Rings_-_The_Return_of_the_King_-_Battle_of_the_Morannon.jpg
http://dreamquestimages.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/army.jpg

That is far more than 200K. And that was only one of the two hosts of Mordor during the LOTR trilogy. This does not include all the other armies either, like Isengard, Angmar, Moria, Rhun, Khand, and Haraad.

But fine, lets just say you are right here Josh. That 200K figure? That ONLY covers the Orcs. What about the other creatures in Mordor's forces? Nevermind Sauron's other armies I mentioned. 200K Mordor Orcs is still greater than any single army in ASOIAF.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Ik. But the excuse isnt valid. 200k werent said just to reduce cost of production...that makes NO sense. Jacksonncould have said 50Million and that wouldnt change much in the cost. The excuse isnt valid.

200k is the official number. No more than that.

200K orcs. There are other creatures in the Mordor Forces. not to mention the other armies under Sauron's Dominion.

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
But I'm not talking about the 2nd Age at all! You brought that up, not me.

The official numbers are Tolkien's, not Jackson's. Jackson only DEPICTED 200K He never said that that was the entire force. (I just watched the commentary on my Special Edition.)

I disagree. Provide more proof than what I said above yourself, and not some rando's word.

I can force the OP to change that if I was so inclined to cheat, Like I said, you don't get to decide your opponents numbers. Thats not fair at all. Not to mention the officiality of your source is dubious without context, which as I said, Jackson references only what he showed, not the entire force. The Orc lines were shown to stretch back beyond human sight.

https://i.resimyukle.xyz/Say9K.png
http://www.tolkiengateway.net/w/images/4/4d/The_Lord_of_the_Rings_-_The_Return_of_the_King_-_Battle_of_the_Morannon.jpg
http://dreamquestimages.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/army.jpg

That is far more than 200K. And that was only one of the two hosts of Mordor during the LOTR trilogy. This does not include all the other armies either, like Isengard, Angmar, Moria, Rhun, Khand, and Haraad.

But fine, lets just say you are right here Josh. That 200K figure? That ONLY covers the Orcs. What about the other creatures in Mordor's forces? Nevermind Sauron's other armies I mentioned. 200K Mordor Orcs is still greater than any single army in ASOIAF.

200K orcs. There are other creatures in the Mordor Forces. not to mention the other armies under Sauron's Dominion.

Okay as i said before and I maintain.

The only numbers we ever got from Sauron's troops were 200K.

Jackson said he believe Sauron should have 200K! He was the Director of the film! His job is to direct and make sure that the Books are followed as closely as possible.

Those are the ONLY numbers we have.

That is the best evidence so far. As i said, many sites and webpages accept this numbers. Why shouldn't this thread do the same?

It is safer to bet on the Numbers given by the Director than to base it on speculations and guesses.

I won't accept Sauron having more than 200K orcs, simply because there is no evidence of such.

And your map doesn't really show more than 200K. I can't see your point by showing those pictures of the orcs.

http://http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj531/Josh-Alexander/c_zpse7p9gjmd.jpg

This is a picture of Daenery's Unsullied Army. They don't exceed 10 000 men. Look at that panorama! They are covering a lot. Now multiply those numbers by 20! (You get 200k). You get a similar view of yours. So, that is non reliable evidence.

http://http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj531/Josh-Alexander/Lannisters_zpsw9zadisj.jpg

Above you have the Lannister Army attacking Highgarden. They are about 5K. Multiply that by 40 and you get the same numbers as Sauron's troops. Enough to cover the entire horizon from the Lady of Thorn's Perspective.

Again using those pictures isn't reliable.

Dark lets not make of this an argument. Lets follow the most reliable evidence here, and that is the Director's opinion. He based his movie on the books. 200K is Sauron's Army.

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by StealthRanger
Gotta love how this guy says Sauron's entire military is 200k and tries to act like some kind of authoritah

And wtf am I reading? Drive Mordor crazy? Ahahahahaha, oh jesus that's as golden as the time on (the now dead and irrelevant) FactPile when someone suggested using biological warfare against the Tyranids

Originally posted by StealthRanger
You so realise that First Age elves and Numenorean Empire are well before the War of the Ring, right?

The again, you are mentally retarded so.... thumb up

The most pathetic thing you can do in a discussion is mock others point of view.

PLEASE PEOPLE. LET'S RESPECT OTHERS OPINION. MAKING FUN AND MOCKING OTHERS ARGUMENTS WONT STRENGHTEN OR PROVE YOUR POINTS. LETS ACT MATURELY PLEASE.

200K is Saurons army simply because the director said that. Am not being an Authoritarian. Am pointing the facts.

There is no evidence in the books to contradict Jackson's opinion. Sorry, but that means we got to stick to the most relevant information and that is what the Director of LOTR said.

Any moderator and impartial person would agree on this with me.

The Director has no reason or benefit in faking or altering the numbers. Lets remember that the Director tries to make his movie as closely related as possible to the books.

Good movies are those which stick closely to the books facts. I doubt Jackson would have guessed that number when he said it. Or are you saying Jackson just directed the film without any knowledge of the Books?

Also you realize that by denying 200K troops for Sauron you are actually denying the Director opinion and words!?

That would mean that you are not taking the movies as canon material! Which goes directly against the rules stated by the OP!!!! The OP stated that both book and movie material were CANON. Therefore if the books fail to give a number to Sauron's troops but the Movies do! The Movie's material and evidence is CANON.

THEREFORE! Jackson numbers are CANON.

If you decide that Sauron has more that 200K. That means you'd be going against this THREAD'S rules! OP can verify this (Dark)

**When i use caps is to highlight a text. It's easier than to use the Bold. Don't misinterpret it as if am being authoritarian or abusive. Please lets be mature and don't take it personal.

Darkstorm Zero

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Okay as i said before and I maintain.

The only numbers we ever got from Sauron's troops were 200K.

Jackson said he believe Sauron should have 200K! He was the Director of the film! His job is to direct and make sure that the Books are followed as closely as possible.

Those are the ONLY numbers we have.

That is the best evidence so far. As i said, many sites and webpages accept this numbers. Why shouldn't this thread do the same?

It is safer to bet on the Numbers given by the Director than to base it on speculations and guesses.

I won't accept Sauron having more than 200K orcs, simply because there is no evidence of such.

And your map doesn't really show more than 200K. I can't see your point by showing those pictures of the orcs.

http://http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj531/Josh-Alexander/c_zpse7p9gjmd.jpg

This is a picture of Daenery's Unsullied Army. They don't exceed 10 000 men. Look at that panorama! They are covering a lot. Now multiply those numbers by 20! (You get 200k). You get a similar view of yours. So, that is non reliable evidence.

http://http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj531/Josh-Alexander/Lannisters_zpsw9zadisj.jpg

Above you have the Lannister Army attacking Highgarden. They are about 5K. Multiply that by 40 and you get the same numbers as Sauron's troops. Enough to cover the entire horizon from the Lady of Thorn's Perspective.

Again using those pictures isn't reliable.

Dark lets not make of this an argument. Lets follow the most reliable evidence here, and that is the Director's opinion. He based his movie on the books. 200K is Sauron's Army.

No, I'm putting my foot down on this. The Director's opinion is no greater than yours or mine. I am Letting you have the 200K but ONLY for the Orcs and even then thats ONLY the 2nd host. The 1st Host led by the Witch King and Gothmog out of Minas Morgul is an entirely separate force, then there's Sauron's 6 other forces. Nor does it cover the Elves and realms of men, hobbits the Eagles, the Dwarves, or any of the other forces of Good. And that is because you are stalling the thread arguing a point nobody else agrees with. Besides, numbers alone are not enough. Move on.

StealthRanger

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Largely irrelevant tripe and bogus

As Dark said, 200K was just one of Sauron's orc armies alone, not factoring in other forces like Easterlings, Haradrim, Corsairs of Umbar, Trolls, etc

Sauron had plenty more just like that and worse back at home, that the Free Peoples admitted they had no chance at all against (say, didn't one part of the special features in ROTK say Sauron had 600,000 troops at Minas Tirith?)

Besides, like I and others have said, numbers are more or less irrelevant when your opponents have many characters who can do shit like destroy mountains, shift islands magically, destroy fortresses magically

No, I'm mocking you because your opinions are founded in little more than just that, with zero substance at all. And no "it's muh opinion" isn't some silver bullet point for making your argument valid

FinalAnswer

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Not mental communicatiom. Greenseeing and Mental communication isnt the same.

Sauron will just hear voices and dont know who is talking to him. Greenseeing is like an invisible person talking. Isnt like Bran gets literaly in his head.

If all he's doing is whispering to him, I'm not exactly sure what you think that will accomplish. Sauron has a will of iron, capable of dominating any other person active in the Third Age, random voices isn't going to make him go nuts if that's what you think.

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
If all he's doing is whispering to him, I'm not exactly sure what you think that will accomplish. Sauron has a will of iron, capable of dominating any other person active in the Third Age, random voices isn't going to make him go nuts if that's what you think.

If you are in your castle and all of a sudden you begin hearing whispers what would you do?

No matter who, if you begin hearing whispers from the air you'd think you are going crazy. Or maybe that God is speaking to you.

Even Sauron would be thinking himself crazy.

FinalAnswer

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
If you are in your castle and all of a sudden you begin hearing whispers what would you do?

I don't know, I'm not an immortal cosmic angel that's existed since the dawn of time and sang in God's choir of creation. People deal with that in real life, never mind a supernaturally powerful spirit, whispering to Sauron would be an annoyance, at best.

Darkstorm Zero

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
If you are in your castle and all of a sudden you begin hearing whispers what would you do?

No matter who, if you begin hearing whispers from the air you'd think you are going crazy. Or maybe that God is speaking to you.

Even Sauron would be thinking himself crazy.

Allow me to help you understand. You are looking at Sauron specifically as if he were a modern human being from our own Earth. He is not.

Sauron (originally Mairon, the servant of Aule the Smith, Valar of the Forge) is a Maiar. What we would equate to an Angel. He has lived even longer than the planet Arda, as he was one of the many Ainur who sung the songs of creation. He is specifically older, and more knowlegable than the Weirwoods that give the Greenseers, including Bran, their power.

We are talking about a spirit capable of reshaping the lands of the world, as that was part of the Maiar's job, as much as that of the Valar.

I mean, Bran is no Sheogorath, and the only way the Maiar went mad, was when they listened to Melkor/Morgoth, and followed his will instead of Eru's. And this is true for any Maiar. Saruman, another maiar, and an Iistari only went mad because of Sauron's mental f**kery through the Palantir. Bran's not even going to be able to get close to Sauron, even through Greenseeing due to Sauron's aura of terror. This guy's mental mastery, and power to influence and control others should never ever be underestimated. It took the power of the first Dark Lord to make this guy fall.

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
No, I'm putting my foot down on this. The Director's opinion is no greater than yours or mine. I am Letting you have the 200K but ONLY for the Orcs and even then thats ONLY the 2nd host. The 1st Host led by the Witch King and Gothmog out of Minas Morgul is an entirely separate force, then there's Sauron's 6 other forces. Nor does it cover the Elves and realms of men, hobbits the Eagles, the Dwarves, or any of the other forces of Good. And that is because you are stalling the thread arguing a point nobody else agrees with. Besides, numbers alone are not enough. Move on.

Originally posted by StealthRanger
As Dark said, 200K was just one of Sauron's orc armies alone, not factoring in other forces like Easterlings, Haradrim, Corsairs of Umbar, Trolls, etc

Sauron had plenty more just like that and worse back at home, that the Free Peoples admitted they had no chance at all against (say, didn't one part of the special features in ROTK say Sauron had 600,000 troops at Minas Tirith?)

Besides, like I and others have said, numbers are more or less irrelevant when your opponents have many characters who can do shit like destroy mountains, shift islands magically, destroy fortresses magically

No, I'm mocking you because your opinions are founded in little more than just that, with zero substance at all. And no "it's muh opinion" isn't some silver bullet point for making your argument valid

I can't believe you'll take the Director's words for poor argumentation.

But any ways. I went and did further research and i found this well founded and evidenced webpage.

http://www.thetolkienforum.com/index.php?threads/armies-of-middle-earth.4431/

This is the Tolkien forum and they are discussing the Armies of the Trilogy and the Hobbit it seems.

I did my calculations. I added all numbers given in that page. And it seems that LoTR combined forces dont exceed 200K!!!!!

You can check the comments bellow that thread. Everyone seems to agree with him.

Now i got the Director's opinion and the Internet backing me up here guys.

I've search all through the web and i haven't found any site supporting you claims people.

This new site i found even disclaim your points even further guys. The forces estimated for both LoTR and BoT5A don't even surpass the 200K.

Now people! Am giving you 500K!!! Am being very generous, because in NO WEBPAGE, FORUM, OR SITE, Do the numbers even reach as close.

If you can manage to bring me evidence that the numbers reach 500K i will be generous and give you 600K or maybe even 700K. But that won't happen cause i've been searching and searching and nowhere i can see your numbers.

Am sorry but my statement is Clear and Concise. 500K it is for LoTR and BoT5A. Simply there is no evidence saying it can surpass those numbers. Not even evidence saying that it even reaches 500K.

Please let's not swim against the current.

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Allow me to help you understand. You are looking at Sauron specifically as if he were a modern human being from our own Earth. He is not.

Sauron (originally Mairon, the servant of Aule the Smith, Valar of the Forge) is a Maiar. What we would equate to an Angel. He has lived even longer than the planet Arda, as he was one of the many Ainur who sung the songs of creation. He is specifically older, and more knowlegable than the Weirwoods that give the Greenseers, including Bran, their power.

We are talking about a spirit capable of reshaping the lands of the world, as that was part of the Maiar's job, as much as that of the Valar.

I mean, Bran is no Sheogorath, and the only way the Maiar went mad, was when they listened to Melkor/Morgoth, and followed his will instead of Eru's. And this is true for any Maiar. Saruman, another maiar, and an Iistari only went mad because of Sauron's mental f**kery through the Palantir. Bran's not even going to be able to get close to Sauron, even through Greenseeing due to Sauron's aura of terror. This guy's mental mastery, and power to influence and control others should never ever be underestimated. It took the power of the first Dark Lord to make this guy fall.

IK who sauron is.

But it makes no matter. Even he would be surprised and awe to hear voices from nowhere. Of hearing things without him knowing where they come from. Even Angels can go crazy.

I believe Sauron would get affected by Bran's Greenseeing.

Darkstorm Zero

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
I can't believe you'll take the Director's words for poor argumentation.

But any ways. I went and did further research and i found this well founded and evidenced webpage.

http://www.thetolkienforum.com/index.php?threads/armies-of-middle-earth.4431/

This is the Tolkien forum and they are discussing the Armies of the Trilogy and the Hobbit it seems.

I did my calculations. I added all numbers given in that page. And it seems that LoTR combined forces dont exceed 200K!!!!!

You can check the comments bellow that thread. Everyone seems to agree with him.

Now i got the Director's opinion and the Internet backing me up here guys.

I've search all through the web and i haven't found any site supporting you claims people.

This new site i found even disclaim your points even further guys. The forces estimated for both LoTR and BoT5A don't even surpass the 200K.

Now people! Am giving you 500K!!! Am being very generous, because in NO WEBPAGE, FORUM, OR SITE, Do the numbers even reach as close.

If you can manage to bring me evidence that the numbers reach 500K i will be generous and give you 600K or maybe even 700K. But that won't happen cause i've been searching and searching and nowhere i can see your numbers.

Am sorry but my statement is Clear and Concise. 500K it is for LoTR and BoT5A. Simply there is no evidence saying it can surpass those numbers. Not even evidence saying that it even reaches 500K.

Please let's not swim against the current.

I'm not arguing with you about numbers again. You keep returning to previously shot down points. I told you to leave it be. I do my own independent research, and that, combined with the lore Tolkien DID put out is not conductive to the numbers you are trying to force ON YOUR OPPONENT'S SIDE I may add. And ultimately, the numbers are irrelevant anyway if you can't stop some of the characters from just wading through the numbers like Moses parting the Red Sea.

Darkstorm Zero

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
IK who sauron is.

But it makes no matter. Even he would be surprised and awe to hear voices from nowhere. Of hearing things without him knowing where they come from. Even Angels can go crazy.

I believe Sauron would get affected by Bran's Greenseeing.

Why? Sauron himself does the same thing on the regular. This is not new to Sauron. You overestimate Bran;s ability to withstand Sauron's presence alone. Bran was affected by the touch of the Night King. Sauron's presence, even without his ring, so so... SO much worse.

ssYpJn5YGJc

tpNgf5a34as

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
I'm not arguing with you about numbers again. You keep returning to previously shot down points. I told you to leave it be. I do my own independent research, and that, combined with the lore Tolkien DID put out is not conductive to the numbers you are trying to force ON YOUR OPPONENT'S SIDE I may add. And ultimately, the numbers are irrelevant anyway if you can't stop some of the characters from just wading through the numbers like Moses parting the Red Sea.

My points aren't shut down. They are evidenced and backed up as i've said before.

Okay if you are not arguing my numbers then what are you doing?

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Why? Sauron himself does the same thing on the regular. This is not new to Sauron. You overestimate Bran;s ability to withstand Sauron's presence alone. Bran was affected by the touch of the Night King. Sauron's presence, even without his ring, so so... SO much worse.

ssYpJn5YGJc

tpNgf5a34as

No. Sauron's way of Mental Attack is through the ring! And it's completly different than Greenseeing.

Also the NK is believed to have a connection to Bran. That's why he can do it. No other White Walker or being can interfere with Bran's Greenseeing. At least it hasn't been proven.

No you are Underestimating Bran's Ability. If the Theories are right. Bran will eventually become a Reality Warper. That means he will be powerful enough to travel to different ages and change things up!

Thats a whole level thing! Sauron has never been able to time travel.

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by StealthRanger
You so realise that First Age elves and Numenorean Empire are well before the War of the Ring, right?

The again, you are mentally retarded so.... thumb up

You said it. Well before. That doesn't concern this thread.

Again leave your personal comments to yourself.

If you guys keep the insulting i will contact a moderator! I care less for your insulting and it doesn't even prove any of your points.

Darkstorm Zero

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
My points aren't shut down. They are evidenced and backed up as i've said before.

Okay if you are not arguing my numbers then what are you doing?

You are mistaking evidence for accepted opinion. I'm telling you to reach your own conclusion as we all have. Ad populem fallacy is not a good way to debate, and I urge you to look at the actual source materials (Not the commentaries or others opinions, I mean the actual films and the books) and reach your own conclusion with your own deductive reasoning and logic. I'm not trying to dictate numbers to you, so I do not know why you are trying to dictate numbers to your opponents here. Especially in the face of it being irrelevant to other, more immediate concerns.

Darkstorm Zero

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
No. Sauron's way of Mental Attack is through the ring! And it's completly different than Greenseeing.

Incorrect. He was doing it LOOOOONG before the ring was ever forged. And he was also doing it while without the ring, in a depowered state, against Saruman.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Also the NK is believed to have a connection to Bran. That's why he can do it. No other White Walker or being can interfere with Bran's Greenseeing. At least it hasn't been proven.

What connection? If that is from a fan theory like bran actually IS the Night King or other some such nonsesne, then no... thats not even remotely admissable.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
No you are Underestimating Bran's Ability. If the Theories are right. Bran will eventually become a Reality Warper. That means he will be powerful enough to travel to different ages and change things up!

We arn't using hypothetical future variants of Bran here. And nothing he does is time travel. He can send uncontrolled words into the past, thats how Hodor was Hodor. Anything else is pure speculative and we cannot use it. However, Sauron's mental feats are too numerous and varied to list here, and would take minds more learned than mine to explain.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Thats a whole level thing! Sauron has never been able to time travel.

If we go by the hypotheticals you like so much, then as an angel/Maiar, of course he can. The magical wonders of the 2nd age and prior are so far out there you'd have to compare it to things like Elder Scrolls, or Legend of Zelda levels of magical f**knuttery.

Darkstorm Zero

Ok, I've recreated this thread with the fine folks over in Spacebattles, where vs are more structured. Look for it here And at Sufficient Velocity Here

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Incorrect. He was doing it LOOOOONG before the ring was ever forged. And he was also doing it while without the ring, in a depowered state, against Saruman.

What connection? If that is from a fan theory like bran actually IS the Night King or other some such nonsesne, then no... thats not even remotely admissable.

We arn't using hypothetical future variants of Bran here. And nothing he does is time travel. He can send uncontrolled words into the past, thats how Hodor was Hodor. Anything else is pure speculative and we cannot use it. However, Sauron's mental feats are too numerous and varied to list here, and would take minds more learned than mine to explain.

If we go by the hypotheticals you like so much, then as an angel/Maiar, of course he can. The magical wonders of the 2nd age and prior are so far out there you'd have to compare it to things like Elder Scrolls, or Legend of Zelda levels of magical f**knuttery.

Mental attacks and Greenseeing isn't the samething.

Really!? I thought Saruman was contacting Sauron. It was never specified that Sauron mental atteck Saruman. Saruman just turned dark.

Somehow the NK is the only one that can interfere with Bran's Greenseeing. So there must be something there.

Yes Bran can time travel. He has been shown doing it. He changed Hodor's future. He were the words Ned Stark would often hear.

No. Sauron has never timetravel. At least it has never been said. Your hypothesis is unclaimed.

My Hypothesis is that Bran will become stronger. A strong timetraveler. He is ALREADY a timetraveler. My hypothesis has a fundament yours don't.

Else Sauron could have gone back in time to alter stuff.

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
You are mistaking evidence for accepted opinion. I'm telling you to reach your own conclusion as we all have. Ad populem fallacy is not a good way to debate, and I urge you to look at the actual source materials (Not the commentaries or others opinions, I mean the actual films and the books) and reach your own conclusion with your own deductive reasoning and logic. I'm not trying to dictate numbers to you, so I do not know why you are trying to dictate numbers to your opponents here. Especially in the face of it being irrelevant to other, more immediate concerns.

Am not dictating numbers. Am giving the numbers that are ACCEPTED by the community! You yourself said it. My numbers are ACCEPTED. Other numbers further than that beliefs and speculations.

The Moderator of this forum STATED CLEARLY that the use of WEBSITES can be used to strenghten and back up your ideas. So far no evidence in the books nor the websites back up any of my opponents numbers.

It's not me the one with the fallacy here my friend.

Darkstorm Zero

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Mental attacks and Greenseeing isn't the samething.

Really!? I thought Saruman was contacting Sauron. It was never specified that Sauron mental atteck Saruman. Saruman just turned dark.

Somehow the NK is the only one that can interfere with Bran's Greenseeing. So there must be something there.

Yes Bran can time travel. He has been shown doing it. He changed Hodor's future. He were the words Ned Stark would often hear.

No. Sauron has never timetravel. At least it has never been said. Your hypothesis is unclaimed.

My Hypothesis is that Bran will become stronger. A strong timetraveler. He is ALREADY a timetraveler. My hypothesis has a fundament yours don't.

Else Sauron could have gone back in time to alter stuff.

Saruman desired the Ring for himself. Sauron used this to corrupt him utterly. Saruman thought he was using Sauron, but was used utterly. Thats the very definition of mindraping him, just the same as Saruman did to Theoden.

Thats not time travel. That's the equivelant of a message in a bottle being the same thing as sailing.

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Ok, I've recreated this thread with the fine folks over in Spacebattles, where vs are more structured. Look for it here And at Sufficient Velocity Here

I dont' have an account for that forum. I won't participate in it. Am fine here.

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Saruman desired the Ring for himself. Sauron used this to corrupt him utterly. Saruman thought he was using Sauron, but was used utterly. Thats the very definition of mindraping him, just the same as Saruman did to Theoden.

Thats not time travel. That's the equivelant of a message in a bottle being the same thing as sailing.

That is not a mental attack. I mean it is a psycho attack. Isn't like Sauron forced Saruman's mind. Sauron mind trapped him. He seduced him. And tricked him.

That isn't the same.

Darkstorm Zero

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
That is not a mental attack. I mean it is a psycho attack. Isn't like Sauron forced Saruman's mind. Sauron mind trapped him. He seduced him. And tricked him.

That isn't the same.

He did it with spells through the Palantir. You HAVE watched the scenes yes?

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
He did it with spells through the Palantir. You HAVE watched the scenes yes?

Saruman contacted Sauron. Else why didn't Sauron did the same with Gandalf or other major characters?

Sauron isn't that much of a psycho attacker. He can do it only through the ring and when being contacted.

Greenseeing doesn't contact the host. Isn't like mental attacks or psycho powers.

StealthRanger

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
I can't believe you'll take the Director's words for poor argumentation.

But any ways. I went and did further research and i found this well founded and evidenced webpage.

http://www.thetolkienforum.com/index.php?threads/armies-of-middle-earth.4431/

This is the Tolkien forum and they are discussing the Armies of the Trilogy and the Hobbit it seems.

Couldn't care less what other forums think. Either front your own argument or get out

Except you didn't

That's because your an idiot who's main tactic is repeating the same nonsense over and over again, and ignoring anything that beats your side hands down

Appeal to popularity

Because we all know the internet is never wrong amirite ugais?

And I don't care

Yeah, because I forgot that was your call to make. So sorry

Don't need to have a written down number to tell Sauron's entire military alone outclasses that number. Mind you, I fail to see why that's relevant when there are people who are so damn powerful to the point where GoT's armies are completely irrelevant, something you've decided to completely ignore

There's plenty of evidence, but you're just retarded (or deliberately ignoring evidence) so, yeah

Speak for yourself. Now, from what I can see of you, you seem like a GoT fanboy. Just a fair warning, we don't take too kindly to your type around here. So, unless you want to be seen as yet another laughing stock, I suggest you take Jaime Lannister's penis out of your throat and start debating properly

StealthRanger

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
You said it. Well before. That doesn't concern this thread.

Never stated in the OP.

We don't need to prove our point, because this shit's been done to death, and because you've never ever had a point to begin with

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by StealthRanger
Never stated in the OP.

We don't need to prove our point, because this shit's been done to death, and because you've never ever had a point to begin with

No yours had no point to begin with.

You havent shown me any evidence that saurons army can surpass 200k. You are mere speculation.

The only one you are fooling here is yourself.

Darkstorm Zero

Ya know what... All that stuff about numbers is irrelevant. The SpaceBattlers reminded me of one uber trumpcard I completely forgot existed...

Aragorn's undead army f**ken solos

https://i0.wp.com/geekstogeeks.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Aragorn_and_army_of_dead.jpg

http://68.media.tumblr.com/868053734273d9a0df57bb9575ac2a5c/tumblr_natu68ECDh1rrm2zoo4_r1_500.gif

StealthRanger

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
No yours had no point to begin with.

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/000/266/no_u_for_knowyourmeme.jpg

Nah, evidence was posted ten millenia ago. You have posted nothing solid *at all* for GoT's number

And while we're on the subject.....

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Ya know what... All that stuff about numbers is irrelevant. The SpaceBattlers reminded me of one uber trumpcard I completely forgot existed...

Aragorn's undead army f**ken solos

https://i0.wp.com/geekstogeeks.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Aragorn_and_army_of_dead.jpg

http://68.media.tumblr.com/868053734273d9a0df57bb9575ac2a5c/tumblr_natu68ECDh1rrm2zoo4_r1_500.gif

This is gonna raise debate. The Army of the Dead of LoTR were seen killing livings. That doesn't imply that the same effect would apply for the dead.

It has been speculated that the Army of the Dead attack the soul or mental attack. There is no evidence that they can literaly harm the flesh.

So that would be a BUT. Because then the Army of the Dead of GOT won't get affected by this since they are already dead and have no sould. The White Walkers themselves wouldn't be harmed neither. Again there is no proof that Ghosts can harm Walkers.

Also, if the Army of the Dead take part of the war then they would be limmited to killing only a certain amount of troops.

As seen in the movie LoTR. They only helped Aragon with some of the troops. Isn't like they went to morgoth themselves and killed all the Enemy. I wouldn't accept that.

Also the Dark Riders are also Ghosts and they seem to get affected by fire.

SO Here is my trumpcard:

http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj531/Josh-Alexander/w_zpssqjoihza.jpg

http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj531/Josh-Alexander/y_zpsk4drourp.png

WILDFIRE!

No army of LoTR would withstand this!!!

No orc, no troll, no oniphant, no elf!!! All i could hear is, "BURN THEM ALL!".

There were 100s of Thousands of these under King's Landing! PLUS! Cercei and Tyrion Ordered the mass production of these!

MAN! I was hesitant to bring that point in since i believe my numbers are enough to DECIMATE you.

500K troops! Pfff we outnumber.

Using Wildfire will just increase the inevitable! DOOM for LOTR.

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by StealthRanger
http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/000/266/no_u_for_knowyourmeme.jpg

Nah, evidence was posted ten millenia ago. You have posted nothing solid *at all* for GoT's number

And while we're on the subject.....

Okay show me evidence that Sauron's troops can surpass 200k.

Do me that favor. Cause the only one giving evidence here is me. You all have based your numbers on speculation and not accepted numbers.

As DARK said, 200K is the accepted number by the community. No internet page, no wiki, no forum will exceed those numbers BECAUSE THERE IS NO EVIDENCE TO PROVE THAT THEY CAN PASS THAT!

Saruman's army in LoTR was of 10K!!!!!!!! Sauron ordered him to make a massive army!!!! 10K!!!

PFFF please. Don't try and fool me. LoTR won't even reach 500K in troops.

The most it could possible reach is 350K.

Darkstorm Zero

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
This is gonna raise debate. The Army of the Dead of LoTR were seen killing livings. That doesn't imply that the same effect would apply for the dead.

It has been speculated that the Army of the Dead attack the soul or mental attack. There is no evidence that they can literaly harm the flesh.

So that would be a BUT. Because then the Army of the Dead of GOT won't get affected by this since they are already dead and have no sould. The White Walkers themselves wouldn't be harmed neither. Again there is no proof that Ghosts can harm Walkers.

Also, if the Army of the Dead take part of the war then they would be limited to killing only a certain amount of troops.

As seen in the movie LoTR. They only helped Aragon with some of the troops. Isn't like they went to morgoth themselves and killed all the Enemy. I wouldn't accept that.

Why? They are spectral blades not hindered by physical defense. And the Dead of Dunharrow are able to move a whole hell of a lot better than the Wights.

As for the white walkers, again, these things are not hindered by anything physical save for Anduril. There's no reason to assume the Walkers defenses hinder the spectral blades in the least. And unlike the Walkers cold defences, these things have demonstrated affecting things even as large and impregnable as the Mumak.

Why? The dead of Dunharrow fight for Aragorn because he is the only one who can release them to the Halls of Mandos. This situation is not the same thing as charging into Mordor and fighting Sauron. (And since you brought it up) Attacking Morgoth, an archangel who has undead horrors that make the Dead of Dunharrow look shallow in comparison would be suicidal.

And again, you are trying to dictate terms to me. Do not do that, or you can leave the thread.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Also the Dark Riders are also Ghosts and they seem to get affected by fire.

SO Here is my trumpcard:

http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj531/Josh-Alexander/w_zpssqjoihza.jpg

http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj531/Josh-Alexander/y_zpsk4drourp.png

WILDFIRE!

No army of LoTR would withstand this!!!

No orc, no troll, no oniphant, no elf!!! All i could hear is, "BURN THEM ALL!".

There were 100s of Thousands of these under King's Landing! PLUS! Cercei and Tyrion Ordered the mass production of these!

MAN! I was hesitant to bring that point in since i believe my numbers are enough to DECIMATE you.

500K troops! Pfff we outnumber.

Using Wildfire will just increase the inevitable! DOOM for LOTR.

So fire is an effective weapon is it?

https://cdn3.whatculture.com/images/2011/07/witchking.jpg

http://24.media.tumblr.com/8fa214968cc4e51df8df81848f39f940/tumblr_n39mk2rWyx1qllztgo5_250.gif

http://media.moddb.com/images/groups/1/2/1488/vlcsnap-2015-03-09-13h35m18s183.png

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1551002693/SucksToBeBalrog.jpg

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/f0/0f/45/f00f45e3e980a34cf76ddf138d2d6025--dragons-fire.jpg

Don't be silly. laughing

Darkstorm Zero

Also:

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11121/111216687/4637153-0146113977-ganda.gif

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Okay show me evidence that Sauron's troops can surpass 200k.

Do me that favor. Cause the only one giving evidence here is me. You all have based your numbers on speculation and not accepted numbers.

As DARK said, 200K is the accepted number by the community. No internet page, no wiki, no forum will exceed those numbers BECAUSE THERE IS NO EVIDENCE TO PROVE THAT THEY CAN PASS THAT!

Saruman's army in LoTR was of 10K!!!!!!!! Sauron ordered him to make a massive army!!!! 10K!!!

PFFF please. Don't try and fool me. LoTR won't even reach 500K in troops.

The most it could possible reach is 350K.

I urge you, look up my thread on Spacebattles. You don't need an account to read. They are far more learned than I am. Have a look at the numbers they calculated. You may be surprised.

https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/a-song-of-ice-and-fire-armies-vs-the-hobbit-and-the-lord-of-the-rings-armies.566896/

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Also:

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11121/111216687/4637153-0146113977-ganda.gif

I urge you, look up my thread on Spacebattles. You don't need an account to read. They are far more learned than I am. Have a look at the numbers they calculated. You may be surprised.

https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/a-song-of-ice-and-fire-armies-vs-the-hobbit-and-the-lord-of-the-rings-armies.566896/

Wow i might. Those guys seem more mature than all tbr babies which posted here.

I havent seen numbers surpassing 500k.

All the contrary. Many guys are supporting my claims. Many are supporting GoT. Unlike here which let their fanatism cloud their judgement. Not refering to you.

Tomorrow i will discuss further your Army of the dead point.

Ohh and. Most guys were wrong at calculating Westeros army in spacebattles. It is more than that. For if in one thing i know a lot is in ASOIF.

Darkstorm Zero

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Wow i might. Those guys seem more mature than all tbr babies which posted here.

I havent seen numbers surpassing 500k.

All the contrary. Many guys are supporting my claims. Many are supporting GoT. Unlike here which let their fanatism cloud their judgement. Not refering to you.

Tomorrow i will discuss further your Army of the dead point.

Ohh and. Most guys were wrong at calculating Westeros army in spacebattles. It is more than that. For if in one thing i know a lot is in ASOIF.

Well, over there, the books have to take precedent as that is the higher cannon.

Although they do give the Dothraki a huge number increase per khalassar.

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Well, over there, the books have to take precedent as that is the higher cannon.

Although they do give the Dothraki a huge number increase per khalassar.

Ive read the rules. But how could a book take presedence if it gives no numbers while the movies do? (LoTR)

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Why? They are spectral blades not hindered by physical defense. And the Dead of Dunharrow are able to move a whole hell of a lot better than the Wights.

As for the white walkers, again, these things are not hindered by anything physical save for Anduril. There's no reason to assume the Walkers defenses hinder the spectral blades in the least. And unlike the Walkers cold defences, these things have demonstrated affecting things even as large and impregnable as the Mumak.

Why? The dead of Dunharrow fight for Aragorn because he is the only one who can release them to the Halls of Mandos. This situation is not the same thing as charging into Mordor and fighting Sauron. (And since you brought it up) Attacking Morgoth, an archangel who has undead horrors that make the Dead of Dunharrow look shallow in comparison would be suicidal.

And again, you are trying to dictate terms to me. Do not do that, or you can leave the thread.

So fire is an effective weapon is it?

https://cdn3.whatculture.com/images/2011/07/witchking.jpg

http://24.media.tumblr.com/8fa214968cc4e51df8df81848f39f940/tumblr_n39mk2rWyx1qllztgo5_250.gif

http://media.moddb.com/images/groups/1/2/1488/vlcsnap-2015-03-09-13h35m18s183.png

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1551002693/SucksToBeBalrog.jpg

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/f0/0f/45/f00f45e3e980a34cf76ddf138d2d6025--dragons-fire.jpg

Don't be silly. laughing

Okay first of have this clear. If you are going to engage with me in a discussion we have to reach a common agreement. I am not dictating anything.

In the movie the army of the dead were used to attack on army only. Isnt like Aragon used them to win the war. Isnt like they marched against Mordor. So if well you can use them. So, i wont agree on them being used to defeat all of GoT.

As i said. The Weighs arent alive. They wouldnt get harmed by ghosts. They dont have a soul.

No evidence that Ghosts can harm WW. Melissandre was seen sending sending a ghost to kill Renly Baratheon. She could have done the samething to the NK. It is unlikely that WW could get harm by these.

Fire could repel them. Just like it did with the Dark Horsemen of Sauron.

The only fire you got is one dragon and that balrog. We got MORE than that. Much more.

Darkstorm Zero

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Okay first of have this clear. If you are going to engage with me in a discussion we have to reach a common agreement. I am not dictating anything.

But you are. You are trying to tell me which numbers are which, AND you are trying to tell me how to use the forces despite that being a pure act of plot convenience.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
In the movie the army of the dead were used to attack on army only. Isnt like Aragon used them to win the war. Isnt like they marched against Mordor. So if well you can use them. So, i wont agree on them being used to defeat all of GoT.

Because act of plot are applicable in a vs match... Wait, thats not how this works. Thats never how that works in ANY vs forum I've ever seen.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
As i said. The Weighs arent alive. They wouldnt get harmed by ghosts. They dont have a soul.

You are assuming that the spectral blades work by soul striking. I would like to see evidence of this.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
No evidence that Ghosts can harm WW. Melissandre was seen sending sending a ghost to kill Renly Baratheon. She could have done the samething to the NK. It is unlikely that WW could get harm by these.

Special pleading and begging the question fallacies while relying on acts of plot are not the way we do things here. Mellisandre's Shadow Babies don't even work the same way as the Dead of Dunharrow. They still kill through physically stabbing, as evidenced by the bleeding hole Renly got when he was impaled all the way through.

http://i.imgur.com/rJAM66P.gif

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Fire could repel them. Just like it did with the Dark Horsemen of Sauron.

Oh yes, early on. It's not like the Witch King wields a flaming sword, or that the Nine were not wreathed in Sauron's fire completely unharmed, and it's not like I didn't just post pictures of these very things to prove it.... roll eyes (sarcastic)

I swear, it seems like you are deliberately ignoring things to suit your argument.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
The only fire you got is one dragon and that balrog. We got MORE than that. Much more.

And at least 3 Istarii Wizards, and a Maiar, and at least one Nazgul with a flaming sword. See? Deliberately ignoring things here...

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
But you are. You are trying to tell me which numbers are which, AND you are trying to tell me how to use the forces despite that being a pure act of plot convenience.

Because act of plot are applicable in a vs match... Wait, thats not how this works. Thats never how that works in ANY vs forum I've ever seen.

You are assuming that the spectral blades work by soul striking. I would like to see evidence of this.

Special pleading and begging the question fallacies while relying on acts of plot are not the way we do things here. Mellisandre's Shadow Babies don't even work the same way as the Dead of Dunharrow. They still kill through physically stabbing, as evidenced by the bleeding hole Renly got when he was impaled all the way through.

http://i.imgur.com/rJAM66P.gif

Oh yes, early on. It's not like the Witch King wields a flaming sword, or that the Nine were not wreathed in Sauron's fire completely unharmed, and it's not like I didn't just post pictures of these very things to prove it.... roll eyes (sarcastic)

I swear, it seems like you are deliberately ignoring things to suit your argument.

And at least 3 Istarii Wizards, and a Maiar, and at least one Nazgul with a flaming sword. See? Deliberately ignoring things here...

The only one ignoring things here id you my friend.

First of all am giving reasonable numbers. Am not basing my numbers on speculations. LoTR wont surpass 500K. Simply because you got no evidence of it! Call it what you want. You are the one who is unreasonable here.

Fire can harm the ghosts. Or scare themm i got wildfire and three dragons. I dont see fit for your ghosts to attack all my troops simply becaude the movie didnt show them as taking part of the war. They only helped Aragon in one battle and then they vanished off. It might help my plot but it is true. Those ghost cant be used as troops. Else Sauron would have used them. Or Aragon would have sent them to Mordor to win the war.

They are spectres. Their weapons dont have a physical form. They havent been proved doing physical damage. Else bring me prove.

Again Ghosts cant harm White Walkers cause there isnt evidence of this. Only Dragon glass and Valyrian steel have been proven to do so.

Darkstorm Zero

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
The only one ignoring things here id you my friend.

Uhm, if I were, I wouldn't be replying at all.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
First of all am giving reasonable numbers. Am not basing my numbers on speculations. LoTR wont surpass 500K. Simply because you got no evidence of it! Call it what you want. You are the one who is unreasonable here.

There's nothing reasonable about those numbers. All you've shown is a vague quote Jackson made in the commentaries, in regards to a single host of Orcs. You misinterpreted that as meaning the ENTIRE MORDOR ARMY! How is that reasonable in the least?

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Fire can harm the ghosts. Or scare themm i got wildfire and three dragons. I dont see fit for your ghosts to attack all my troops simply becaude the movie didnt show them as taking part of the war. They only helped Aragon in one battle and then they vanished off. It might help my plot but it is true. Those ghost cant be used as troops. Else Sauron would have used them. Or Aragon would have sent them to Mordor to win the war.

Fire can harm the Nazgul's physical disguise. But it cannot destroy them, it cannot prevent them from reforming as the Witch King did. But Fire never ever stopped the Dead of Dunharrow. Sauron did use them - The Ghostly Legions of Angmar, the Wights of the Barrow Downs, the Shades of Arnor, the Spectres of the Dead Marshes, and various other undead from specific fortresses like the lesser wraiths - The Castellans of Dol Guldur, or the various undead monsters found in Minas Morgul. When it comes to necromancy and the varieties of undead? Sauron has this in the bag bar none.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
They are spectres. Their weapons dont have a physical form. They havent been proved doing physical damage. Else bring me prove.

Ah, but you are assuming they are damaging their targets via spirit.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Again Ghosts cant harm White Walkers cause there isnt evidence of this. Only Dragon glass and Valyrian steel have been proven to do so.

You roll back on this defense again. Do you now see why arguing with you goes in circles? You are assuming more defense than what was demonstrated by the Walkers. Do not do that again - I'm not going to provide the same evidence for the same damn point again and again because you refuse to let it sink in. So far, the walkers defense consists of shattering common steel and that is IT. it's not an absolute defense without evidence, so do not go assuming that Valyrian Steel and Dragonglass are the only ways through it. The only reason you say this is because these are the only ones that the Westerosi have found to work, and they certainly have not tried anything else.

That is the last time I go around the same points with you Josh, you keep rewinding back to these same arguments that have been defeated repeatedly in the hopes that you exasperate your opponents enough to make them concede out of frustration. That is a classic trolling tactic, and I hope you are not trolling... I would not be pleased with that.

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Uhm, if I were, I wouldn't be replying at all.

There's nothing reasonable about those numbers. All you've shown is a vague quote Jackson made in the commentaries, in regards to a single host of Orcs. You misinterpreted that as meaning the ENTIRE MORDOR ARMY! How is that reasonable in the least?

Fire can harm the Nazgul's physical disguise. But it cannot destroy them, it cannot prevent them from reforming as the Witch King did. But Fire never ever stopped the Dead of Dunharrow. Sauron did use them - The Ghostly Legions of Angmar, the Wights of the Barrow Downs, the Shades of Arnor, the Spectres of the Dead Marshes, and various other undead from specific fortresses like the lesser wraiths - The Castellans of Dol Guldur, or the various undead monsters found in Minas Morgul. When it comes to necromancy and the varieties of undead? Sauron has this in the bag bar none.

Ah, but you are assuming they are damaging their targets via spirit.

You roll back on this defense again. Do you now see why arguing with you goes in circles? You are assuming more defense than what was demonstrated by the Walkers. Do not do that again - I'm not going to provide the same evidence for the same damn point again and again because you refuse to let it sink in. So far, the walkers defense consists of shattering common steel and that is IT. it's not an absolute defense without evidence, so do not go assuming that Valyrian Steel and Dragonglass are the only ways through it. The only reason you say this is because these are the only ones that the Westerosi have found to work, and they certainly have not tried anything else.

That is the last time I go around the same points with you Josh, you keep rewinding back to these same arguments that have been defeated repeatedly in the hopes that you exasperate your opponents enough to make them concede out of frustration. That is a classic trolling tactic, and I hope you are not trolling... I would not be pleased with that.

Your rules contradict your statements DSZ. Jackson is the director of the film. That means that according to the movie there are 200k orcs the most! Now, i have given you movie evidence. I have given you a number which wasn't only stated by the director but which is also well approved on the LoTR community. Most if not ALL sites will back up my claim.

Furthermore, in the movie we are told that Isildur's army is 10K! 10!!!! Sauron told Saruman to build a MIGHTY army and he made 10!! I don't see why me saying 200K should be incorrect.

So, what we have here is a battle of which one weights more. You are using book speculations while am using movie facts. I am using evidence. Which one weights more? Book speculation or Movie evidence? Obviously the evidence. Even more, you stated that both movies and books were canon material. In this case the movie's numbers are canon.

The Nazgul are ghosts to. I never said fire would kill them. But they would withdraw. Fire woulld withdraw your dead. And as i said before. The LoTR Army of the dead will be limitted. Simply because they can't take the Whole Westerosi Army on themselves. In the movies they helped Aragon defeat some of Sauron's troops. Isn't like Aragon used them to win the war, or made them march against Mordor defeating all the Orcs there. I won't expect the Army of the dead killing more than 50K of Westerosi troops before vanishing.

Again no proof that the White Walkers can be killed using Ghosts. Nor the Weighs.

They are spectres. They have no physical weapons. They can't harm the flesh. There is no evidence of that, else show me. They are ghosts. They aren't living dead.

Again am just saying what the Shows and the Books have said. White Walkers have been shown to be vulnerable to Valyrian and Dragonglass.

I would expect the major characters to be able to kill the White Walkers. Like Aragon, or Gandalf. But beside the major characters, the White Walkers are immune to anything.

I wouldn't expect an Orc Sword to resist an Ice spear. Those will shatter easily.

Darkstorm Zero

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Your rules contradict your statements DSZ. Jackson is the director of the film. That means that according to the movie there are 200k orcs the most! Now, i have given you movie evidence. I have given you a number which wasn't only stated by the director but which is also well approved on the LoTR community. Most if not ALL sites will back up my claim.

Wrong. I said book canon takes presedence. But even if I refered to pure movies, Jackson's statement covers one host of orcs. Sauron had 2 hosts of orcs, plus 5 other armies in total. You cannot be that disingenuous witht he words for one particular scene dude. Now, accept this and move on. I'm not claiming the orcs number in the millions/

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Furthermore, in the movie we are told that Isildur's army is 10K! 10!!!! Sauron told Saruman to build a MIGHTY army and he made 10!! I don't see why me saying 200K should be incorrect.

Again, you are wrong. Sauruman specifically says "Tens of thousands" as in PLURAL, as in 20K or more. You really need to hear the words better.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
So, what we have here is a battle of which one weights more. You are using book speculations while am using movie facts. I am using evidence. Which one weights more? Book speculation or Movie evidence? Obviously the evidence. Even more, you stated that both movies and books were canon material. In this case the movie's numbers are canon.

Wieighs more? Book canon is the primary source. Both are admissable, but if there is conflict of information then the books take precedent as they are the senior canon. The books are the highest source after all, and this is true for both franchises. martin's books, and tolkien's books must be regarded more highly than the movies and shows.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
The Nazgul are ghosts to. I never said fire would kill them. But they would withdraw. Fire woulld withdraw your dead. And as i said before. The LoTR Army of the dead will be limitted. Simply because they can't take the Whole Westerosi Army on themselves. In the movies they helped Aragon defeat some of Sauron's troops. Isn't like Aragon used them to win the war, or made them march against Mordor defeating all the Orcs there. I won't expect the Army of the dead killing more than 50K of Westerosi troops before vanishing.

The Nazgul are a different kind of undead though. Not all undead are the same. You should know that.

Angmar's ghostly Legions are just as effective as the dead of Dunharrow when mustered.

Like I said before, we arn't using plot contrivances here. And this isn't a boardgame. Aragorn let them go because he made a promise, and that was because plot demanded it. We arn't constrained by acts of PIS (Plot Induced Stupidity).

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Again no proof that the White Walkers can be killed using Ghosts. Nor the Weighs.

No proof they can't be either, and since once again you made the positive claim, you provide the positive evidence.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
They are spectres. They have no physical weapons. They can't harm the flesh. There is no evidence of that, else show me. They are ghosts. They aren't living dead.

They can't harm the..... What?! The literal thousands of skulls that dogpiled Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli in the city of the dead outright proves you wrong!

http://68.media.tumblr.com/2d95977dca702d001fcaa696a917b41b/tumblr_nte8itGVH41qzgnzho1_500.gif

Please do not spout such utter lunacy!

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Again am just saying what the Shows and the Books have said. White Walkers have been shown to be vulnerable to Valyrian and Dragonglass.

No, you are regurgitating what fallible characters in universe know works. Have they tried magic? no. Have they tried crushing them with catapult shots? No, have they tried ANYTHING bar swinging standard metal weapons at them? NOPE! The Walkers defenses have not been tested in any other fashion at all EVER. Assuming that they ARE invulnerable without testing it is garbage logic, and you should feel ashamed for trying to pass that off as any reasonable form of evidence FOR something. Allow me to teach you a principal of debating Josh - The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. As in do not assume it is so if you cannot show it to be so. We can assume that Orcish weapons, besides enchanted ones, would indeed shatter. We can assume Gondorian weapons, besides enchanted ones, will shatter. We can assume even the finely crafted Dwarven and Elvish weapons, besides enchanted ones, will shatter. We cannot assume innately magical weapons will shatter however, because we know magic F**ks the Walker's shit all over the place. Valyrian Steel's construction with fire magic proves it, as does the wights shattering once they enter the 3 Eyed Raven's Cave. We assume that lightbringer, being an innately magical weapon worked the same as well, despite not being made of Valyrian Steel.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
I would expect the major characters to be able to kill the White Walkers. Like Aragon, or Gandalf. But beside the major characters, the White Walkers are immune to anything.

You'd need to define major characters. Almost all uniques or rares are innately magical beasts of combatants. Aragorn and Gandalf are only but two/ LOTR has many, many MANY heroes who operated even just during the time of the War of the Ring.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
I wouldn't expect an Orc Sword to resist an Ice spear. Those will shatter easily.

As I mentioned above. The Walkers Ice blades would probably work all the way to Elvish or Enchanted weapons, but there are a LOT of those.

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Wrong. I said book canon takes presedence. But even if I refered to pure movies, Jackson's statement covers one host of orcs. Sauron had 2 hosts of orcs, plus 5 other armies in total. You cannot be that disingenuous witht he words for one particular scene dude. Now, accept this and move on. I'm not claiming the orcs number in the millions/

Again, you are wrong. Sauruman specifically says "Tens of thousands" as in PLURAL, as in 20K or more. You really need to hear the words better.

Wieighs more? Book canon is the primary source. Both are admissable, but if there is conflict of information then the books take precedent as they are the senior canon. The books are the highest source after all, and this is true for both franchises. martin's books, and tolkien's books must be regarded more highly than the movies and shows.

The Nazgul are a different kind of undead though. Not all undead are the same. You should know that.

Angmar's ghostly Legions are just as effective as the dead of Dunharrow when mustered.

Like I said before, we arn't using plot contrivances here. And this isn't a boardgame. Aragorn let them go because he made a promise, and that was because plot demanded it. We arn't constrained by acts of PIS (Plot Induced Stupidity).

No proof they can't be either, and since once again you made the positive claim, you provide the positive evidence.

They can't harm the..... What?! The literal thousands of skulls that dogpiled Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli in the city of the dead outright proves you wrong!

http://68.media.tumblr.com/2d95977dca702d001fcaa696a917b41b/tumblr_nte8itGVH41qzgnzho1_500.gif

Please do not spout such utter lunacy!

No, you are regurgitating what fallible characters in universe know works. Have they tried magic? no. Have they tried crushing them with catapult shots? No, have they tried ANYTHING bar swinging standard metal weapons at them? NOPE! The Walkers defenses have not been tested in any other fashion at all EVER. Assuming that they ARE invulnerable without testing it is garbage logic, and you should feel ashamed for trying to pass that off as any reasonable form of evidence FOR something. Allow me to teach you a principal of debating Josh - The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. As in do not assume it is so if you cannot show it to be so. We can assume that Orcish weapons, besides enchanted ones, would indeed shatter. We can assume Gondorian weapons, besides enchanted ones, will shatter. We can assume even the finely crafted Dwarven and Elvish weapons, besides enchanted ones, will shatter. We cannot assume innately magical weapons will shatter however, because we know magic F**ks the Walker's shit all over the place. Valyrian Steel's construction with fire magic proves it, as does the wights shattering once they enter the 3 Eyed Raven's Cave. We assume that lightbringer, being an innately magical weapon worked the same as well, despite not being made of Valyrian Steel.

You'd need to define major characters. Almost all uniques or rares are innately magical beasts of combatants. Aragorn and Gandalf are only but two/ LOTR has many, many MANY heroes who operated even just during the time of the War of the Ring.

As I mentioned above. The Walkers Ice blades would probably work all the way to Elvish or Enchanted weapons, but there are a LOT of those.

Why you love to go against reason?

The books would take presedence ONLY if the books would give a number. Speculation of the books wont weight more than evidence of the movie.

You are wrong. Aragon specifically told the king that they were 10 thousand. I saw the movie yesterday.

No matter how much you repeat your not-evidenced ideas, those numbers wont surpass 200k. I have evidence. You javr speculations.

Josh_Alexander

As i said and i repeat.

If you are gonna face LoTR vs ASOIF that Army of the Dead will be limmited!!

Dont expect them to win the war for you! Else All Tolkien or Aragon or Gandalf would have done is to summon them to win the war for them. They would have crushed mordor and isengard! But that never happen. Your Trumpcard will be limitted. Isnt like LoTR wins just for those Ghost which never took part of the real war.

That is fair.

Darkstorm Zero

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Why you love to go against reason?

Thats not reasonable. And you merely repeating that does not make it any more accurate than when you first said it.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
The books would take presedence ONLY if the books would give a number. Speculation of the books wont weight more than evidence of the movie.

Estimates reach 300K for the orc army that attacked Osgiliath alone, this is why your numbers only possibly account for the Morannon host, and not Sauron's entire force. I have repeatedly told you this but you seem to cling to the notion that Jackson's 200k comment is all encompasing and means every Orc in Mordor ever.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
You are wrong. Aragon specifically told the king that they were 10 thousand. I saw the movie yesterday.

I believe the exact quote was "Ten thousand strong AT LEAST" Stop being disingenuous with words.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
No matter how much you repeat your not-evidenced ideas, those numbers wont surpass 200k. I have evidence. You javr speculations.

F**king what? Non evidenced!? I gave you all the evidence any reasonable person needs. I'm not the one misinterpreting (Or in this case being deliberately disingenuous with words) a commentary.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
As i said and i repeat.

If you are gonna face LoTR vs ASOIF that Army of the Dead will be limmited!!

Dont expect them to win the war for you! Else All Tolkien or Aragon or Gandalf would have done is to summon them to win the war for them. They would have crushed mordor and isengard! But that never happen. Your Trumpcard will be limitted. Isnt like LoTR wins just for those Ghost which never took part of the real war.

That is fair.

You don't get to decide that. Stop putting plot limiters in a vs match. If you are that undone by the Dead of Dunharrow, I don't have to use them at all. I have superhuman soldiers like the Elves who cut a swath through Westerosi levies like a scythe through wheat and who have literal aimbot longbow accuracy.

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Estimates reach 300K

I believe the exact quote was "Ten thousand strong AT LEAST" Stop being disingenuous with words.

Estimates OMG. ESTIMATES!!! Hey people, guess what ESTIMATES weight more than ACTUAL NUMBERS! AMAZING!

Where in the books do they claim that Sauron has 300k? WHERE? Cause in all the websites i read, they claim the books never gave a number! Do you think i am answering based on ESTIMATES? I am participating into this thread because i MADE MY REASEARCH!

I am not inventing numbers nor reducing Sauron's Troops to support my plot. I BASED MY PLOT ON EVIDENCE. If i would have found on the Internet that Sauron's troop reach 1M, or 700K i would have made my plot that LoTR wins. SINCE i didn't, I have to say GoT wins BECAUSE they outnumber.

If you think am BASING my plot on defending my favorite film. THATS WRONG. I am very impartial.

So again, those numbers WON'T surpass 200K because THERE IS NO EVIDENCE OF SUCH.

10K the least places Saruman's army between 10K-19K. Else Aragon would have said 20K or Tens of 1000. He said at least 10K. That is not enough.

Again GoT OUTNUMBERS due to facts and evidence. Am not centering my points on Speculations/which show i like the most/which one i believe wins/ which author i prefer.

As long as am concern sustaining your point of view and dictating isn't the same thing. Unless you feel ofcourse that you don't have enough evidence to strenghten your own points, in which case it feels like you are losing the discussion. Which would seem like am dictating terms, since my points are stronger than yours.

Darkstorm Zero

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Estimates OMG. ESTIMATES!!! Hey people, guess what ESTIMATES weight more than ACTUAL NUMBERS! AMAZING!

Lol, righteo. Anything that disagrees with your pov is wrong.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/bb/a4/48/bba448005946246f36e8cbc0993dcb67.jpg

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Where in the books do they claim that Sauron has 300k? WHERE? Cause in all the websites i read, they claim the books never gave a number! Do you think i am answering based on ESTIMATES? I am participating into this thread because i MADE MY REASEARCH!

Your using the word of Jackson, in one scene, to cover an entire force. Not only is that disingenuous and dishonest, it flies in the face of what we saw earlier in that same movie.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
I am not inventing numbers nor reducing Sauron's Troops to support my plot. I BASED MY PLOT ON EVIDENCE. If i would have found on the Internet that Sauron's troop reach 1M, or 700K i would have made my plot that LoTR wins. SINCE i didn't, I have to say GoT wins BECAUSE they outnumber.

You are. there's no way around that. I don't care what you find on the net, unless it's Tolkien's own word. Everything past that IS speculation. I did my caclulations based on his words, where the orcs covered Udun and the Gorgoroth Plateau up to the base of Barad Dur, because that was Tolkien's description. That is a distance measured in MILES, swarming with orcs. You can fit literal millions of orcs in that space, but I GAVE you 200K orcs FOR THAT ONE HOST, Not both, and not for the other 5 forces at Sauron's command, because THAT is logical reasoning, THAT is how you deduce things, and THAT is the force Sauron REQUIRES to conquer Arda. it's called common sense.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
If you think am BASING my plot on defending my favorite film. THATS WRONG. I am very impartial.

Oh yeah, impartial.... With invulnerable White Walkers despite them not showing invulnerability to anything beyond common steel. Then we have the uber skilled Night King despite their being no evidence of this uber skill beyond a strong Javelin arm. Then we have you trying to fob numbers for your oposition. You are the very DEFINITION of impartial... No.... Not impartial... whats the other word I'm looking for?

Oh yeah... Biased.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
So again, those numbers WON'T surpass 200K because THERE IS NO EVIDENCE OF SUCH.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/bb/a4/48/bba448005946246f36e8cbc0993dcb67.jpg
https://media.tenor.com/images/cb3afcb4dcc6be69f44023ffa7a0f889/tenor.gif

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
10K the least places Saruman's army between 10K-19K. Else Aragon would have said 20K or Tens of 1000. He said at least 10K. That is not enough.

Ok, thats for the numbers sent against Helms Deep. He still has more at Isengard, along with the mordor Orcs he had sent to him by Sauron.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Again GoT OUTNUMBERS due to facts and evidence. Am not centering my points on Speculations/which show i like the most/which one i believe wins/ which author i prefer.

Did I claim superior numbers? No. I claimed the number disparity was nowhere near as great as you think it is, nor do the numbers matter in the face of several superhuman armies.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
As long as am concern sustaining your point of view and dictating isn't the same thing. Unless you feel ofcourse that you don't have enough evidence to strenghten your own points, in which case it feels like you are losing the discussion. Which would seem like am dictating terms, since my points are stronger than yours.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/bb/a4/48/bba448005946246f36e8cbc0993dcb67.jpg

I referrence you back to Spacebattles.

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Lol, righteo. Anything that disagrees with your pov is wrong.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/bb/a4/48/bba448005946246f36e8cbc0993dcb67.jpg

Your using the word of Jackson, in one scene, to cover an entire force. Not only is that disingenuous and dishonest, it flies in the face of what we saw earlier in that same movie.

You are. there's no way around that. I don't care what you find on the net, unless it's Tolkien's own word. Everything past that IS speculation. I did my caclulations based on his words, where the orcs covered Udun and the Gorgoroth Plateau up to the base of Barad Dur, because that was Tolkien's description. That is a distance measured in MILES, swarming with orcs. You can fit literal millions of orcs in that space, but I GAVE you 200K orcs FOR THAT ONE HOST, Not both, and not for the other 5 forces at Sauron's command, because THAT is logical reasoning, THAT is how you deduce things, and THAT is the force Sauron REQUIRES to conquer Arda. it's called common sense.

Oh yeah, impartial.... With invulnerable White Walkers despite them not showing invulnerability to anything beyond common steel. Then we have the uber skilled Night King despite their being no evidence of this uber skill beyond a strong Javelin arm. Then we have you trying to fob numbers for your oposition. You are the very DEFINITION of impartial... No.... Not impartial... whats the other word I'm looking for?

Oh yeah... Biased.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/bb/a4/48/bba448005946246f36e8cbc0993dcb67.jpg
https://media.tenor.com/images/cb3afcb4dcc6be69f44023ffa7a0f889/tenor.gif

Ok, thats for the numbers sent against Helms Deep. He still has more at Isengard, along with the mordor Orcs he had sent to him by Sauron.

Did I claim superior numbers? No. I claimed the number disparity was nowhere near as great as you think it is, nor do the numbers matter in the face of several superhuman armies.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/bb/a4/48/bba448005946246f36e8cbc0993dcb67.jpg

I referrence you back to Spacebattles.

Am not gonna extend myself any further!

These ALL am gonna say.

200K is the most! For my word! My word is the word of what THE INTERENT says. And YES, anything that goes against the INTERNET is in most cases wrong. You can't fight the internet. 200k they say it's because of something. Not only Jackson, other fans of LoTR and people with more knowledge on the books and movies than you and me together.

Darkstorm Zero

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Am not gonna extend myself any further!

These ALL am gonna say.

200K is the most! For my word! My word is the word of what THE INTERENT says. And YES, anything that goes against the INTERNET is in most cases wrong. You can't fight the internet. 200k they say it's because of something. Not only Jackson, other fans of LoTR and people with more knowledge on the books and movies than you and me together.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
200K is the most! For my word! My word is the word of what THE INTERENT says. And YES, anything that goes against the INTERNET is in most cases wrong. You can't fight the internet. 200k they say it's because of something. Not only Jackson, other fans of LoTR and people with more knowledge on the books and movies than you and me together.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
For my word! My word is the word of what THE INTERENT says. And YES, anything that goes against the INTERNET is in most cases wrong.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
And YES, anything that goes against the INTERNET is in most cases wrong.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
anything that goes against the INTERNET is in most cases wrong.

http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/lol.gif

Oh you poor, poor naive young fool. You must believe anything you see on the net... Ah to be young and ignorant again..... You'll learn.

Josh_Alexander

This is my decision:

http://http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj531/Josh-Alexander/This-is-what-Josh-Alexander-Aka-LT-says-to-you-522550_zpszq73ye3i.jpg

http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj531/Josh-Alexander/27617343_zps2vtsbctn.jpg'

laughing out loud

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/lol.gif

Oh you poor, poor naive young fool. You must believe anything you see on the net... Ah to be young and ignorant again..... You'll learn.

If i can't believe the internet why should i believe in your SPECULATIONS!?

The Living Tribunal has ruled against you.

Darkstorm Zero

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/bb/a4/48/bba448005946246f36e8cbc0993dcb67.jpg

You never had any points except for misinterpreting words. I've not insulted you, but you insult my intelligence with your deliberate misdirection and references to other peoples opinions without ever forming one of your own with independent study. Congrats, you failed debating 101.

Ok, lets calm down and take a second here.

Alright, for the sake of argument, lets say I Give you the numbers you want. Alright, what does that achieve? The LOTR side still has several superhuman ARMIES at their disposal, including a large number of naimed characters that have feats so far out there it's unreal. Legolas? The wizards? Aragorn? Sauron!? The Balrog? Galadriel? Elrond? The Nazgul? All of whom have far beyond superhuman feats.

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero

Oh you poor, poor naive young fool. You must believe anything you see on the net... Ah to be young and ignorant again..... You'll learn.

Are you sure it's me the one insulting here??? All i have done is defend my points and demolish yours.

The one insulting here is another.

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/bb/a4/48/bba448005946246f36e8cbc0993dcb67.jpg

You never had any points except for misinterpreting words. I've not insulted you, but you insult my intelligence with your deliberate misdirection and references to other peoples opinions without ever forming one of your own with independent study. Congrats, you failed debating 101.

Ok, lets calm down and take a second here.

Alright, for the sake of argument, lets say I Give you the numbers you want. Alright, what does that achieve? The LOTR side still has several superhuman ARMIES at their disposal, including a large number of naimed characters that have feats so far out there it's unreal. Legolas? The wizards? Aragorn? Sauron!? The Balrog? Galadriel? Elrond? The Nazgul? All of whom have far beyond superhuman feats.

The LT has decreed! Your points are based on speculation. Dead points. The Living Tribunal shall not take part in this case any further.

Darkstorm Zero

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Are you sure it's me the one insulting here??? All i have done is defend my points and demolish yours.

The one insulting here is another.

You call me unreasonable and not responsive to the opinions of the net. There is a reason why I do my own independent work when i do these threads, because any information can be incorrect without verification. I do that myself, as I have always done.

Why did you reply to the same post 3 times?

Anyways, I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt here josh, as you are clearly very new to debating, you are quite young, and you are a massive fan of Game of Thrones. Clearly you arn't ready yet, as you also suffer the newbie flaws of stubbornness and simply refuse to listen to anything that opposes your views. I can understand this... Even i was new once, a very long time ago. We all were. But in your current and present state, trying to debate with you is clearly not going to work. You already abandoned my thread in Spacebattles because you don't like the prep time and the hypotheticals, even though these debates are all entirely hypothetical.

In the end, I'll leave you to lurk more and learn. If you want to say you won these threads, thats fine... Anyone who reads these posts will see what I was trying to do for themselves. So in the end, it doesn't really matter all that much to me.

Later dude.

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
You call me unreasonable and not responsive to the opinions of the net. There is a reason why I do my own independent work when i do these threads, because any information can be incorrect without verification. I do that myself, as I have always done.

Why did you reply to the same post 3 times?

Anyways, I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt here josh, as you are clearly very new to debating, you are quite young, and you are a massive fan of Game of Thrones. Clearly you arn't ready yet, as you also suffer the newbie flaws of stubbornness and simply refuse to listen to anything that opposes your views. I can understand this... Even i was new once, a very long time ago. We all were. But in your current and present state, trying to debate with you is clearly not going to work. You already abandoned my thread in Spacebattles because you don't like the prep time and the hypotheticals, even though these debates are all entirely hypothetical.

In the end, I'll leave you to lurk more and learn. If you want to say you won these threads, thats fine... Anyone who reads these posts will see what I was trying to do for themselves. So in the end, it doesn't really matter all that much to me.

Later dude.

Bahahahahaha! Calling you unreasonable isnt insulting ypu. I said you were unreasonable here, which is true.

Actually no. Am very old to debate, thats why am so good.

You want to know why i have the Living Tribunal as my profile pic? Cause am impartial, just like LT. I dont just go arround posting on threads without doing research of my own first. Thats the reason why i managed to smash your points here. And thats why i dont surrender to my points.

I always pick the winning side based on facts wink

you should try it sometime

Darkstorm Zero

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Bahahahahaha! Calling you unreasonable isnt insulting ypu. I said you were unreasonable here, which is true.

Actually no. Am very old to debate, thats why am so good.

You want to know why i have the Living Tribunal as my profile pic? Cause am impartial, just like LT. I dont just go arround posting on threads without doing research of my own first. Thats the reason why i managed to smash your points here. And thats why i dont surrender to my points.

I always pick the winning side based on facts wink

you should try it sometime

I don't care if you picked the TOAA as your avatar, that has nothing to do with the boy behind the screen posting this nonsense at me.

And no, you're not. your posting style and poor grasp of sentence cohesion tells me you are either not a native english speaker, or very young indeed. Perhaps both.

And no, repeating your assertions over and over and over and over ad nausem is not destroying my point. It's burying civil discussion under a pile of absolute nonsense. Thats not debating Josh, thats stifling discussion. If I had the same fire as my old days, I would have already blasted you quite overwhelmingly for doing this exact thing, because it ruins threads.

You produced no facts. And no, your opinions are not fact. The only thing you produced was internet concensus, which falls under the Argumentum Ad Populum Logical Fallacy which I do not even have to aknowledge under the rules of any debating forum.

Now, are you done with your trash talking? Are you going to either debate respectfully and cohesively, or are you going to leave?

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
I don't care if you picked the TOAA as your avatar, that has nothing to do with the boy behind the screen posting this nonsense at me.

And no, you're not. your posting style and poor grasp of sentence cohesion tells me you are either not a native english speaker, or very young indeed. Perhaps both.

And no, repeating your assertions over and over and over and over ad nausem is not destroying my point. It's burying civil discussion under a pile of absolute nonsense. Thats not debating Josh, thats stifling discussion. If I had the same fire as my old days, I would have already blasted you quite overwhelmingly for doing this exact thing, because it ruins threads.

You produced no facts. And no, your opinions are not fact. The only thing you produced was internet concensus, which falls under the Argumentum Ad Populum Logical Fallacy which I do not even have to aknowledge under the rules of any debating forum.

Now, are you done with your trash talking? Are you going to either debate respectfully and cohesively, or are you going to leave?

Attacking me won't strenghten nor prove your points Dark. I hope i can expect a bit of maturity from your part.

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
You produced no facts. And no, your opinions are not fact. The only thing you produced was internet concensus, which falls under the Argumentum Ad Populum Logical Fallacy which I do not even have to aknowledge under the rules of any debating forum.

Impediment's own words. I don't think i have to say anything else.

Darkstorm Zero

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Impediment's own words. I don't think i have to say anything else.

And you think those things are actually infallible? That no matter what it is, it cannot ever be factually wrong? Hows about I link you to any of Keemstar's videos where he talks absolute verbal diarrhoea. would what he say be considered fact then? Or hows about I go to the Night King's page on GOT wiki, and put up there in an edit that his ice spikes are actually all penises that he uses to breed magical monkeys? Would that me factually correct? Because the internet will say it, even if it gets edited out within five minutes, it was still there, I can screenshot it and this it was indisputible fact?

Of course it's not. The only irrefutable facts for any fictional debate like this is the source material.

Josh_Alexander

To everyone's knowledge i will withdraw form this thread.

It seems it is clear enough that i have stated my opinion and i have debated each and every single one of you with arguments, evidence, and logic. I have posted several links from good pages backing up my ideas, which is valid according to this forum's rules.

It was fun to debate and hear your points of views. I respect your opinions although i might not agree to them.

It is a shame most of you can't debate without having to take things personally and using harming comments to try discourage others from posting. All you manage to do is harm the threads, and weaken your ideas.

Having said that LT won't take part of this thread anymore.

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
And you think those things are actually infallible? That no matter what it is, it cannot ever be factually wrong? Hows about I link you to any of Keemstar's videos where he talks absolute verbal diarrhoea. would what he say be considered fact then? Or hows about I go to the Night King's page on GOT wiki, and put up there in an edit that his ice spikes are actually all penises that he uses to breed magical monkeys? Would that me factually correct? Because the internet will say it, even if it gets edited out within five minutes, it was still there, I can screenshot it and this it was indisputible fact?

Of course it's not. The only irrefutable facts for any fictional debate like this is the source material.

They are infallible if it comes from 10+ pages? I don't think 10 pages can be wrong on the samething.

I didn't based my points on mere wikis.

Are you going against impediment's rules?

Cause let me tell you something. This tread has broken several rules already. Am sure you don't want it shut down.

Darkstorm Zero

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
To everyone's knowledge i will withdraw form this thread.

It seems it is clear enough that i have stated my opinion and i have debated each and every single one of you with arguments, evidence, and logic. I have posted several links from good pages backing up my ideas, which is valid according to this forum's rules.

It was fun to debate and hear your points of views. I respect your opinions although i might not agree to them.

It is a shame most of you can't debate without having to take things personally and using harming comments to try discourage others from posting. All you manage to do is harm the threads, and weaken your ideas.

Having said that LT won't take part of this thread anymore.

Oh stop... I never insulted you. I told you exactly how and why you were wrong, and you refused to listen to anything I said. Thus you stalled the debate on numbers, the army of the dead being restricted, the Walkers and Wights invulnerabilities and you refused to come to the table on any of it. You kept pointing to the opinions of others as though they were unassailable fact.

Besides, your adversion to the Spacebattles thread was based on hogwash too. Every vs debate in existence anywhere, and not just the internet, is a hypothetical debate, a what of scenario.

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Oh stop... I never insulted you. I told you exactly how and why you were wrong, and you refused to listen to anything I said. Thus you stalled the debate on numbers, the army of the dead being restricted, the Walkers and Wights invulnerabilities and you refused to come to the table on any of it. You kept pointing to the opinions of others as though they were unassailable fact.

Besides, your adversion to the Spacebattles thread was based on hogwash too. Every vs debate in existence anywhere, and not just the internet, is a hypothetical debate, a what of scenario.

I've made myself clear. Any moderator can verify all the arguments placed in my last message.

Verify the misbehavior in thread. Verify the use of bad language. Verify that i was using links of several webpages which is valid according to Impediment's rules.

Verify that the rules of this thread were shifted from time to time. Like for instance the rule that stated that both Books and Movies were cannon. And then you guys said that Peterson's words were non-canon.

Sorry Dark but i withdraw. I am here to debate not to fight and be in hostile conditions.

Darkstorm Zero

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
I've made myself clear. Any moderator can verify all the arguments placed in my last message.

Verify the misbehavior in thread. Verify the use of bad language. Verify that i was using links of several webpages which is valid according to Impediment's rules.

Verify that the rules of this thread were shifted from time to time. Like for instance the rule that stated that both Books and Movies were cannon. And then you guys said that Peterson's words were non-canon.

Sorry Dark but i withdraw. I am here to debate not to fight and be in hostile conditions.

I didn't say Jackson's word was non-canon. I said hos word doesn't mean what you think it does. Thats not rule shifting.

And when have I flamed or insulted you? YOU called me unreasonable, and that was a personal attack on MY character. I never insulted or called YOU anything.

Wiki, google and youtube are alright sources for general information, but they always get trumped by source material. This is true for any franchise. You should know this if you've been doing it for a while. You'll get trounced in any debate and mocked horribly by a lot of debaters around the net for this sort of debating. I'm not saying that to hurt or insult you dude, I'm trying to help you.