Darth Maul vs. Marka Ragnos.

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The Merchant
Both in their prime in the Geonosian Gladiator arena.

Sabers
Force
A out

Who wins?

Azronger
Maul

BlueTiger1144
Maul.

Trocity
Marka is beyond Maul.

Ursumeles
Maul
Marka
Marka

Deronn_solo
Ragnos spanks in Force and all-out.

Nai
Originally posted by The Merchant
Both in their prime in the Geonosian Gladiator arena.

Sabers
Force
A out

Who wins?

Sabers - Ragnos probably destroys Maul with casual ease, based on the fact that he is the progenitor of SW:ToR's Juggernaut class. The guy slapped his pet-terentatek into submission with his bare hands, ffs. What is Maul going to do against somebody like that?

Force - Ragnos rapes.

All out - Ragnos still rapes.

AncientPower
Ragnos > Pall >/~ Muur > Krayt > Maul

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by Nai
Sabers - Ragnos probably destroys Maul with casual ease, based on the fact that he is the progenitor of SW:ToR's Juggernaut class.
This might mean something if Maul was around when Ragnos was the progenitor of aforementioned class and Maul wasn't the progenitor of anything. As Maul came into existence in an entirely different era, this means about as much as me singing Maul's praises because he was the apprentice of the most powerful sith ord of all time.

The Merchant
How do we know Ragnos>Pall?

Azronger
Originally posted by The Merchant
How do we know Ragnos>Pall?

People misinterpret certain quotes.

ILS
Source: The Old Republic: Codex Entry: The Beast of Marka Ragnos

1. Marka beating his terentatek is according to "legend" - I see no reason to take a legend at face value.

2. While "beating" could well relate to a physical beating, given the size and durability of a terentatek - many times that of Ragnos himself - it makes more sense that he beat it telekinetically, or with some kind of weapon, and likely while the beast was restrained from fighting back. At least, those are options just as plausible as the assumption that Marka just walked up to this, what, 10-15 foot creature and punched it into submission? So not really much of a feat.

Regarding factual events: Maul has plenty of feats of matching strength against larger-than-life creatures, namely:

-Fighting for control with a bloodlusted varactyl while riding it, until he killed it, at which point he ripped it's massive, armoured skull off, all without apparent use of Force augmentation

-Killed both a Yuuzhan Vong gladiator and a wampa bare-handed, again, without apparent use of Force augmentation (separate occurrences)

-Tied a dragon slug around it's own tail, incapacitating it, which is impressive given how massive a dragon slug is, how powerful it's muscles must then be: https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/c/cb/Dragon_Slug.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20130428160416

-Using one arm, while hanging from a chasm, Maul grabbed the sprayed-web of a "mammoth spider", and tugged it hard enough to rip the spider from it's perch, causing it to plummet to death

And then we have, in the recent eponymous canon comic, Maul again, matching strength with a creature many times his own size:

https://i.imgur.com/VQh1n5a.jpg

So yeah... how does it go again... emphasis mine?

AncientPower
Originally posted by Azronger
People misinterpret certain quotes.

Yes, because this is easily misinterpreted. erm

Azronger
Originally posted by AncientPower
Yes, because this is easily misinterpreted. erm

Tell me again, since when has "greatest" been synonymous with "most powerful"?

AncientPower
When his greatness is attributed directly to his power, and unrivalled reign. erm

Azronger
Strength, power and strategy marked the rule of Marka Ragnos. Descended from the original Sith inhabitants of Korriban and the Dark Jedi exiles who interbred with them, Marka Ragnos was destined for greatness. He conquered his competitors in a series of quick, ruthless campaigns and became Dark Lord of all Sith, a title he would hold for more than a century.

The reign of Marka Ragnos might have been short-lived had he not displayed great strategic discipline. Instead of clashing directly with Sith challengers who hungered for his power, he pitted his enemies against each other to weaken and destroy them. Similarly, he was one of few Sith of his era who knew of the existence of the Republic and the Jedi Order. He chose not to attack, and instead focused on strengthening the Sith Empire.

The golden age of the Sith would end shortly after his death, but the legacy and spirit of Marka Ragnos would live on within his tomb in the Valley of the Dark Lords.

The Old Republic Codex: Tomb of Marka Ragnos

You're making things up again.

AncientPower
You're being a retard again.



But I love how you use that quote, which directly refers to the beginning of his rule, and ignore his century of growth in power.

Azronger
Um, no it's referring to his whole rule, and the reason I am ignoring his power-growth is because it in no way means the quote says he is the most powerful.

MythLord
AP, how do you even function?

Trocity
Az laying the smackdown on his/her monkey ass.

AncientPower
Originally posted by Azronger
Um, no it's referring to his whole rule, and the reason I am ignoring his power-growth is because it in no way means the quote says he is the most powerful.

He literally made the Sith Empire more powerful via his rule and they entered a golden age due to it. His being declared the most powerful of the most powerful also shits on the idea that he only retained his rule via strategy. But let's not pretend every competent Sith does the same. laughing out loud

Big Gerald
Ragnos's power is referred to as "titanic." Could you ever imagine Darth Maul being described the same way?

UCanShootMyNova
Originally posted by AncientPower
He literally made the Sith Empire more powerful via his rule and they entered a golden age due to it.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lnt5jitgXO1qdwt78o1_500.gif

Rebel95
Ragnos

Azronger

AncientPower
Except you're purposefully ignoring the fact that power was also a significant part of his rule, as all of those quotes state. He, fact, has the best accolades of anybody up until his time. His power has been described as 'titanic' and more than that, amongst all the ancient Sith spirits he acts as the superior.

All comparisons, in terms of the very limited ones we can make, all point to Ragnos as the top dog.

All blurbs are subjective, and if there's a reason to reconsider their veracity (I.E. that Valk's feats sh!t all over Plagueis') then they're hardly the infallible facts you'd like them to be.

Azronger
Originally posted by AncientPower
Except you're purposefully ignoring the fact that power was also a significant part of his rule, as all of those quotes state.

I am ignoring it because it doesn't mean he was the most powerful ever.



This is an entirely different argument. Given that you didn't address half of the things I said, I assume it's a concession.

Anyway, not sure how you're equating "titanic" with "most powerful ever." Makes no sense.

And what're you referring to when you say he acts as the best amongst the Sith spirits?



I'm aware.

AncientPower
So him being so titanically powerful, terrifying strong and intensely intelligent isn't the reason he's the greatest Dark Lord of the Sith up until his time? Okay, makes sense. (BTW you're making the same retarded argument that anti-Sheev debaters used to use all the time, ain't that beautiful.)

Freedon Nadd deferring to him, and Ragnos making all the decisions among the Council of Sith spirits is pretty indicative.

You realise that Ragnos returning from the grave on literally the other side of the galaxy nearly gave Odan-Urr cardiac arrest? More than that, it required the absorption of numerous powerful dark side sites such as Korriban, Yavin IV, etc., to fuel his spirit's return. We also know that even all of that energy wasn't enough because Ragnos' spirit returned with nowhere near his full strength, despite Tavion acting as a host.

Muur really doesn't have much of anything to compare.

Azronger
Originally posted by AncientPower
So him being so titanically powerful, terrifying strong and intensely intelligent isn't the reason he's the greatest Dark Lord of the Sith up until his time? Okay, makes sense. (BTW you're making the same retarded argument that anti-Sheev debaters used to use all the time, ain't that beautiful.)

Thanks for putting words in my mouth. Did I ever state Ragnos wasn't the greatest of all time? No, I did not. I accept that he is and never expressed beliefs that'd go against that notion. You've yet to establish he's the most powerful ever, though.



Quote, please.



I do, kinda like Savage Opress did to Dooku; Maul to Yoda, Anakin and co.; ESB Luke to Palpatine etc. Shall I lay down more examples as to why it is moronic to use disturbances in the Force as indications of one's power in the Force?



If you manage to quantify all that into telekinetic potency for example, you might have a point. Until then, it's a completely arbitrary feat given that no one else in the mythos (to my knowledge) has anything similar.

The Merchant
I'm not sure on the part where Nadf deferred to Ragnos, but the Sith council part is true. Comes from when Kun and Ulic were marked by Kun.

Nevertheless, Mauls physicals are way higher than I thought. He probably could outmuscle Ragnos.

AncientPower
So in other words, you're arguing semantics? These are Dark Lords of the Sith, him being the greatest and most powerful is essentially one in the same.

I'm sure it's also why both Kressh and Sadow know that even Ragnos' spirit could kill either of them.



The Scepter drained the energy of Yavin IV Temple focal points, just one of which was used by Dorsk 81, Kyp and 28 others to telekinetically launch a fleet of Star Destroyers out of the Yavin system like 'twigs in a storm'.

Azronger
Originally posted by AncientPower
So in other words, you're arguing semantics? These are Dark Lords of the Sith, him being the greatest and most powerful is essentially one in the same.

If you manage to prove that greatest = most powerful in this context, you'll have a point.



Kressh and Sadow =/= Muur



And what proof do you have that Muur was amongst those spirits? Can you name anyone of note out of that bunch?



Yes, while in a Battlemeld between thrity individuals. How much the nexus contributed is unquantifiable.

Also, concession accepted on the disturbance in the Force thing.

AncientPower
Originally posted by Azronger
If you manage to prove that greatest = most powerful in this context, you'll have a point.

In the context of the Sith, and given Kreia's canonically accurate praise, it's self-evident. erm

Originally posted by Azronger
Kressh and Sadow =/= Muur

It's a better estimation of power amongst ancient Sith than Muur has. wink

Originally posted by Azronger
And what proof do you have that Muur was amongst those spirits? Can you name anyone of note out of that bunch?

Muur wasn't, he was in the Muur Talisman. Freedon Nadd however, was a member of the 'Sith Council'.

Originally posted by Azronger
Yes, while in a Battlemeld between thirty individuals. How much the nexus contributed is unquantifiable.

Your favorite term apparently. Oh and given that the text explicitly states that he fails utterly twice, and then only succeeds when he draws fully on the other Jedi and focuses it through the Temple, is it successful.

Noting that this is just one amongst many of the Temples Tavion drained. She also drained power from the Valley of the Dark Lords, the remains of power on Byss left over by Sheev and Co., the Cave on Dagobah, and more.

Any which way you try to wiggle your way out of it, it's an implication of power for Ragnos that Muur has absolutely nothing to compare with.

Originally posted by Azronger
Also, concession accepted on the disturbance in the Force thing.

That was hardly the crux of my stance. Desperate much? laughing out loud

DarthAnt66
Tulak aside, who else is even a candidate against Ragnos' supremacy?

And please, don't say Muur.

AncientPower
Pretty impressive that he was Vitiate's Master too, now that I think about it.

Azronger
Originally posted by AncientPower
In the context of the Sith, and given Kreia's canonically accurate praise, it's self-evident. erm

Nope, Ragnos' reign was named the Golden Age of the Sith due to him being a good ruler, not the most powerful in the Force. Greatness =/= power.



Given that Sadow and Kressh don't scale to Muur in any way, it's also worthless.



So Muur wasn't there, making that also worthless.



It's my favorite term to use when my opponent throws around unquantifiable feats, yeah. Speaking of which, the power of the nexus is still unquantifiable. What you're saying doesn't change that.



True, but it's also completely arbitrary and can't be scaled to not just Muur, but any other Star Wars character given that no one else has anything like it. I might as well cite Muur being > Vong Krayt as an implication of power that Ragnos "has absolutely nothing to compare with."



Yes, I must be totally desperate, having forced two concessions out of you.

Azronger
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Tulak aside, who else is even a candidate against Ragnos' supremacy?

And please, don't say Muur.

Care to tell me when Ragnos showed power greater than that of Darth Krayt?

MythLord
When did Karness, tho? Lol

Azronger
On Had Abbadon, in the Deep Core, Krayt confronted Skywalker a second time. But a third Force-user possessed powers that outshone them both. Karness Muur, an ancient Sith spirit, blasted Krayt with overpowering energy, sending him over a cliff to the rocks below.

Insider 113

DarthAnt66
That quote doesn't include the context of the situation. Krayt was already ****ed up, IIRC - Muur's power outshining him isn't that extreme.

MythLord
Originally posted by Azronger
On Had Abbadon, in the Deep Core, Krayt confronted Skywalker a second time. But a third Force-user possessed powers that outshone them both. Karness Muur, an ancient Sith spirit, blasted Krayt with overpowering energy, sending him over a cliff to the rocks below.

Insider 113

The plural meaning powers seems to refer to technique, not raw power. It's probably talking about Dark Healing, Essence Transfer, Rakghouls and sh!t like that.

Haschwalth

DarthAnt66
That's seen in the comic, yeah. Doesn't mean he's more powerful, given Krayt's state when it happened.

Azronger
Originally posted by MythLord
The plural meaning powers seems to refer to technique, not raw power. It's probably talking about Dark Healing, Essence Transfer, Rakghouls and sh!t like that.

It being plural can still mean it refers to raw power lol

Azronger
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
That quote doesn't include the context of the situation. Krayt was already ****ed up, IIRC - Muur's power outshining him isn't that extreme.

Eh, I guess you could see it that way.

AncientPower
Er, Muur possessing powers that outshone them both(which was literally just Force lightning if you try to interpret it that way, which makes no sense if you're going by number of techniques). Doesn't actually have anything to do with the secondary statement there.

Also, Krayt being weakened there is hardly relevant when he still actually has his power, meaning that Krayt's power in general was surpassed.

Nor does that account for the fact that Muur was a mere spirit who didn't even retain the power to free himself and was possessing a host who actively resisted him in Morne. Who was also not powerful enough to free him either.

Prime Muur is an entirely more powerful Sith than his shade ever was.

NewGuy01
Originally posted by AncientPower

Also, Krayt being weakened there is hardly relevant when he still actually has his power, meaning that Krayt's power in general was surpassed.

What the f**k?

AncientPower
He was constantly using his powers of healing to maintain his body, a'la Vader, IIRC.

AncientPower
Originally posted by Azronger
Nope, Ragnos' reign was named the Golden Age of the Sith due to him being a good ruler, not the most powerful in the Force. Greatness =/= power.

A good ruler who held his throne for a century due to his power, physical strength and his political abilities. You're attempting to make a difference where there really isn't one.

Originally posted by Azronger
Given that Sadow and Kressh don't scale to Muur in any way, it's also worthless.

You realise Sadow gets higher praise than Pall, who Muur was one of the Shadow Hands of.

Originally posted by Azronger
So Muur wasn't there, making that also worthless.

Pall was, Muur is at best Pall's equal.

Originally posted by Azronger
It's my favorite term to use when my opponent throws around unquantifiable feats, yeah. Speaking of which, the power of the nexus is still unquantifiable. What you're saying doesn't change that.


Yes it does, you're inferring it isn't a far more impressive inclination of power than Muur has ever had. Which it is, and you clearly have fvck all of an argument to prove otherwise.

Originally posted by Azronger
True, but it's also completely arbitrary and can't be scaled to not just Muur, but any other Star Wars character given that no one else has anything like it. I might as well cite Muur being > Vong Krayt as an implication of power that Ragnos "has absolutely nothing to compare with."

Actually, it's quite similar to what Vitiate and Nihilus did to maintain their power, but on an evidently lesser scale. Oh, and Ragnos does have something comparable to exactly what you've suggested, in that he's the leader of a group of Sith spirits who nearly killed ROTJ Sidious. Given you probably have Sidious shitstomping 20,000 Krayts, that should be kinda significant.

Originally posted by Azronger
Yes, I must be totally desperate, having forced two concessions out of you.

You've forced nothing. laughing out loud

Azronger
I'm done arguing with this moron - for good.

Trocity
Using your power of healing constantly to maintain your body, if that is what Krayt is doing, while said body is riddled with parasites that dampen ones connection to the Force, probably means he couldn't bring the full brunt of his power to a fight imo.

MythLord
Originally posted by Azronger
It being plural can still mean it refers to raw power lol

It does, because powers means there's more than one, i.e. it's going to be referring to techniques.

As for blasting him with overpowering energy, given the state Krayt was in at the time, and he wasn't even adequately defending himself(and he's just been stabbed) it doesn't mean much.

AncientPower
Originally posted by Azronger
I'm done arguing with this moron - for good.

Concession accepted. thumb up

AncientPower
Originally posted by Trocity
Using your power of healing constantly to maintain your body, if that is what Krayt is doing, while said body is riddled with parasites that dampen ones connection to the Force, probably means he couldn't bring the full brunt of his power to a fight imo.

Which is relevant to being overpowered, not so relevant in a general blanket statement of raw power.

AncientPower
Originally posted by MythLord
It does, because powers means there's more than one, i.e. it's going to be referring to techniques.

As for blasting him with overpowering energy, given the state Krayt was in at the time, and he wasn't even adequately defending himself(and he's just been stabbed) it doesn't mean much.



It has been used in the same way before, that being one example.

MythLord
Which Dooku said when he used lightning, a technique Obi-Wan couldn't. Also, his powers being "far beyond" Kenobi's and his powers "outshowing" Kenobi isn't the same thing.

AncientPower
Force lightning is a Jedi power?

NewGuy01
In that context, yes.

AncientPower
Besides which:

MythLord
Originally posted by AncientPower
Force lightning is a Jedi power?

What other powers did he show to Obi-Wan? I mean, it's stupid writing, but it's writing nonetheless.

Regardless, his powers outshining Krayt can once again just refer to his versatility and knowledge in powers Krayt has never seen or used before, like the Rakghouls, the Dark Healing and the Essence Transfer.

It's a perfectly valid interpretation, and a more likely one given how well Krayt stacked up against Muur despite such delporable circumstances for him. And before you mention Muur being a spirit, we've already established his Talisman contains all his power, so it's not like he's diminished in that area since his old days of Exile.

AncientPower
We've never established that, only Muur's will is held within the Talisman, as the quotes state.

MythLord
I beg your pardon?

Anyone who's actually read Vector would know the amount of times Muur's power locked within the Talisman was referenced. It's not just the will, sweetie.

The Merchant
So I guess if you think Ragnos>Muur determines if Maul wins or not.

AncientPower
Originally posted by MythLord
I beg your pardon?

Anyone who's actually read Vector would know the amount of times Muur's power locked within the Talisman was referenced. It's not just the will, sweetie.

He was anchored to the Talisman and needed Morne's reserves to use his power. He did essentially the same thing Kun and Andeddu did. This is explicitly made clear by the fact he needed the powers of a great Sith Lord such as Vader or Krayt, or the potential of a Skywalker such as Luke or Leia, to set him free from his Talisman. If he had his own full power, that hardly would've been problematic.

MythLord
Yeah, notice how he needed the Skywalkers to free himself, i.e. reattain physical form. That means his raw power was already in place, it just lacked a body to wield it. He wasn't anchored to the Talisman, his very essence was contained within it.

BlueTiger1144
AP getting owned here pretty hard.

AncientPower
Because he lacks the immediate power to do so by himself.

Originally posted by BlueTiger1144
AP getting owned here pretty hard.

Adults only please. smile

MythLord
Or maybe it's because he needs a vessel to use his power to reanimate him? An extremely powerful vessel like, *gasps*, a Skywalker, who's lineage he had been continuously haunting for over a hundred years? I mean, Celeste was unwilling to comply and Muur implied when he overcomes her eventually, he'll come back to life.

Basically, at most of what you can gain from that, is that the Skywalkers have a lot more potential than Celeste Morne, which we already know.

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