Kenobi and Skywalker VS Bane and Zannah

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TheNuisanceBird
Just finished watching this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDV2pAeI6co

Thoughts?

I'm not so sure on Zannah's sorcery against Anakin. While it is the most important thing in the entire match up I feel Anakin and Obi-Wan were undersold at sometimes.

I personally would have Anakin > Bane as a duelist especially when taking Anakin's strength and expereince into account.

DarthAnt66
Anakin would solo and, frankly, arguing otherwise is essentially impossible.

Zannah's sorcery would be useless against Anakin, and Anakin would stomp Bane with relative ease.

Disappointed in this video, but to be honest, I didn't expect much.

TheNuisanceBird
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Anakin would solo and, frankly, arguing otherwise is essentially impossible.

Zannah's sorcery would be useless against Anakin, and Anakin would stomp Bane with relative ease.

Disappointed in this video, but to be honest, I didn't expect much.

Solo? Zonakin and Fallikin for sure.

Useless? I'm not that familiar with Zannah's sorcery to be honest but I don't see her holding up to Anakin for long. He'd likely plow through her before she could make a gap.

I think Zannah's defenses were blown up a little. Kenobi could probably penetrate her defenses due both indirectly and directly.

In the "early fight" I feel even if Anakin doesn't dismantle Bane the way he did Drallig hd'd still catch Bane off guard with his strength.

Antoine saying Zannah's skill with Soresu is near Kenobi's almost made me lol

One of the few places Evannova gets it right is with Bane's experience as a duelist although it's not as much of an issue as he makes it out to be.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by TheNuisanceBird
Solo? Zonakin and Fallikin for sure.

Excuse me if I'm misinterpreting, but obviously note "Zonakin" is literally just how Anakin is after his fight with Dooku and is not a temporary boost.

Then, regarding "Fallikin," that's just a more powerful version of "Zonakin," achieved by fully embracing the dark-side.

So, when one talks of Anakin, "Fallikin" would simply be his natural peak incarnation.



Her combat applicable power would need to surpass Anakin's raw power for it to work effectively, which is, well, impossible.



She could make fifteen gaps and it likely wouldn't matter. But, yeah, she isn't lasting long at all.



Kenobi's a vastly superior swordsman than Zannah in both regards.

For defense, even Dooku is in awe over his defenses and explicitly cannot penetrate him.

For offense, refer to his fights with Maul (especially TPM) and Grievous (especially ROTS).



There's just no way Bane could survive his onslaught. One must consider Dooku handled the physical strength of Grievous or Mace fine.

Dooku's not physically weak - he's monstrously strong, but was almost killed by Anakin in just three attacks.

Anakin is just... the Chosen One. And then we can get into a discussion over how Anakin's stronger than Yoda, etc...


thumb up

godemperortrump
Anakin is the best duelist here but dunno how he'd handle Zannah's sorcery, I wanna hear DMB or Myth's opinion on this.

Obi's a weak link though

AncientPower
Didn't Orb Bane outlast Raskta Lsu's blows whilst simultaneously countering her allies attacks, which were stated to be far more blows than those that it took for Grievous to break Kenobi's shield wall?

Just food for thought.

godemperortrump
Originally posted by TheNuisanceBird
Just finished watching this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDV2pAeI6co

Thoughts?

I'm not so sure on Zannah's sorcery against Anakin. While it is the most important thing in the entire match up I feel Anakin and Obi-Wan were undersold at sometimes.

I personally would have Anakin > Bane as a duelist especially when taking Anakin's strength and expereince into account.

Anakin is a better duelist than Bane sure, but not by that much. Lmao what makes you think Ani is so much more experienced that it would give him the win? Or strength wise, how would he defeat Bane with his strength? The difference is negligible.

TheNuisanceBird
Wasn't there a thing on the saber project interview when Gillard said something about how Anakin using the dark side is how he gets to 9? Like how a teenager taking LSD can do crazy shit for a few hours. That's what I meant by Fallikan. Zonakin to me has been once he tapped into his potential aboard the Invisible Hand where I remember in the ROTS novel Anakin thinking back to how what happened during his fight with Dooku would give the Council a reason to fear his power.



So it wouldn't even work for a brief second as Antoine suggests? Wouldn't any impending probe cause Angry Anakin to lose his temper before it could even take effect?



Actually, hold up. Now that I think about it Anakin has been shown to be able to outrun the vacuum of space even when having to bend down and pick up Sera Keto. I'm barely familiar with Zannah although I can't think of a speed feat I've seen on a respect thread that suggests she wouldn't get speed blitzed. Also in head canon Anakin's possibly faster than Yoda considering the quote in the ROTS calling him the strongest Jedi is something like; "the strongest, and the fastest".



While Bane's feat of protecting himself from a rainstorm is impressive, Zannah's skill is what some say is below Ventress' level although again, I barely know anything about her asides from her birth name being "Rain". At least I think so.



Now that I think of it, a more fair match up might have been having both of them fight Kenobi lol

The only issue would be the Force abilities.

TheNuisanceBird
Originally posted by godemperortrump
Anakin is a better duelist than Bane sure, but not by that much. Lmao what makes you think Ani is so much more experienced to give him the win? Or stronger? The difference is negligible.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f6/t636525.html

godemperortrump
Originally posted by TheNuisanceBird
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f6/t636525.html
Nice argument, linking me to a thread someone else made explaining how he's stronger than Dooku. Bane isn't as physically handicapped as Dooku.

TheNuisanceBird
Originally posted by godemperortrump
Nice argument, linking me to a thread someone else made explaining how he's stronger than Dooku. Bane isn't as physically handicapped as Dooku.

*Facepalm

Fated Xtasy
Originally posted by DarthAnt66

and explicitly cannot penetrate him.


https://media.tenor.com/images/6ac1d4b9f2375e9fdd64f9f2c90396ce/tenor.gif

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by TheNuisanceBird
So it wouldn't even work for a brief second as Antoine suggests? Wouldn't any impending probe cause Angry Anakin to lose his temper before it could even take effect?

So, how that works:

Legends has established since the Jedi Academy books that a Force-user can't just go searching through another's deep fears, emotions, and experiences without resistance. All Force-user's have a Force shield guarding their mind that protects them from said probing. This Force shield, as Luke learned when he tried to probe Kyp Durron and was was hurled across a room, is a reflection of their full potential. So, in the case of Zannah, she will be unable to capitalize on any of Anakin's true emotional demons, since there is no way in hell she will be capable of overcoming that Force shield. Further, if she tries, she might be instantly destroyed, considering how ****ed up Luke got simply trying to gauge Durron's power. Could Zannah still use Anakin's surface thoughts against him? Sure, but post-mid Invisible Hand fight, there's nothing to even use against Anakin. So, yeah, Zannah's sorcery would be entirely ineffective against someone like Anakin.

DarthAnt66
In short, there's a reason why Sidious or the Son can't just telepathically possess Anakin and force him to do their bidding.

Anakin's too strong for them, and he's obviously too strong for Darth ****ing Zannah too.

TheNuisanceBird
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
So, how that works:

Legends has established since the Jedi Academy books that a Force-user can't just go searching through another's deep fears, emotions, and experiences without resistance. All Force-user's have a Force shield guarding their mind that protects them from said probing. This Force shield, as Luke learned when he tried to probe Kyp Durron and was was hurled across a room, is a reflection of their full potential. So, in the case of Zannah, she will be unable to capitalize on any of Anakin's true emotional demons, since there is no way in hell she will be capable of overcoming that Force shield. Further, if she tries, she might be instantly destroyed, considering how ****ed up Luke got simply trying to gauge Durron's power. Could Zannah still use Anakin's surface thoughts against him? Sure, but post-mid Invisible Hand fight, there's nothing to even use against Anakin. So, yeah, Zannah's sorcery would be entirely ineffective against someone like Anakin.

So like a Force wall for telepathy? She likely wouldn't have as much time to do so as Antoine suggests.

I also feel how he left out how Kenobi and Skywalker would likely be fighting together. Even if we go with his version of Anakin, the two Jedi would work as a team.

This is one of the few times I do this, but this is what the Plo Koon and Shaak Ti team advantage in the Dooku and Maul would do.

So overall, even if Anakin and Zannah start at opposite sides of a football field, Zannah wouldn't be able to get ahold of anything as Anakin Dino charges towards her.

TheNuisanceBird
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
In short, there's a reason why Sidious or the Son can't just telepathically possess Anakin and force him to do their bidding.

Anakin's too strong for them, and he's obviously too strong for Darth ****ing Zannah too.

So ironically Dun Moch would be a safer option than Soth sorcery.

godemperortrump
So the argument is Zannah couldn't break Anakin because he's too powerful?

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by godemperortrump
So the argument is Zannah couldn't break Anakin because he's too powerful?

Sure?

MythLord
Malak can resist Zannah's sorcery cause he knows Force Fear, but Anakin and Obi-Wan can't because... reasons.

Anakin needs a better teammate, but he's beating either Bane or Zannah.

carthage
Jedi stomp

Either can solo

cs_zoltan
Originally posted by MythLord
Anakin needs a better teammate

For what?

AncientPower
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
So, how that works:

Legends has established since the Jedi Academy books that a Force-user can't just go searching through another's deep fears, emotions, and experiences without resistance. All Force-user's have a Force shield guarding their mind that protects them from said probing. This Force shield, as Luke learned when he tried to probe Kyp Durron and was was hurled across a room, is a reflection of their full potential. So, in the case of Zannah, she will be unable to capitalize on any of Anakin's true emotional demons, since there is no way in hell she will be capable of overcoming that Force shield. Further, if she tries, she might be instantly destroyed, considering how ****ed up Luke got simply trying to gauge Durron's power. Could Zannah still use Anakin's surface thoughts against him? Sure, but post-mid Invisible Hand fight, there's nothing to even use against Anakin. So, yeah, Zannah's sorcery would be entirely ineffective against someone like Anakin.

Isn't Zannah's sorcery explicitly different from this rule? This isn't just generic telepathy, that was made blatantly obvious in Rule of Two.

DarthAnt66
I just don't think it came into play since she's dealing with characters less powerful than herself.

Kurk
Will need to watch

TheNuisanceBird
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I just don't think it came into play since she's dealing with characters less powerful than herself.

I agree with Antoine on Anakin > Bane in physicality. However, I'd say it's due to Anakin's strength and speed rather than just saying it's his youth although it helps.

JKBart
Strength displayed by Anakin surpasses the perfect, human peak 25-year old many, many times lol. Age plays pathetically small role here.

DarthAnt66
Anakin's the physically strongest human in Star Wars.

TheNuisanceBird
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Anakin's the physically strongest human in Star Wars.

Trying to think of a time where Grandmaster Luke used physical augmentation for his strength.....

DarthAnt66
Nothing comparable to nearly killing Dooku in three strikes by sheer physical dominance.

godemperortrump
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Nothing comparable to nearly killing Dooku in three strikes by sheer physical dominance.
Savage sending Dooku flying across the room twice with a lightsaber clash proves that Anakin isn't the only one

DarthAnt66
Savage used TK to do that, rofl.

Ursumeles
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Anakin's the physically strongest human in Star Wars. I mean, except for entities, who is stronger anyway?

DarthAnt66
I put "human" in case Zenwolf mentions the Zillo Beast or something.

Ursumeles
lmfao

Raptor22
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
So, how that works:

Legends has established since the Jedi Academy books that a Force-user can't just go searching through another's deep fears, emotions, and experiences without resistance. All Force-user's have a Force shield guarding their mind that protects them from said probing. This Force shield, as Luke learned when he tried to probe Kyp Durron and was was hurled across a room, is a reflection of their full potential. So, in the case of Zannah, she will be unable to capitalize on any of Anakin's true emotional demons, since there is no way in hell she will be capable of overcoming that Force shield. Further, if she tries, she might be instantly destroyed, considering how ****ed up Luke got simply trying to gauge Durron's power. Could Zannah still use Anakin's surface thoughts against him? Sure, but post-mid Invisible Hand fight, there's nothing to even use against Anakin. So, yeah, Zannah's sorcery would be entirely ineffective against someone like Anakin. is that something that's an established rule tho? I feel like too many force users have been probed, had their thoughts read or straight up mind whammied with no backlash for it to be established. The kyp scene seems like more of the exception than the rule.

TheNuisanceBird
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Savage used TK to do that, rofl.

I think he meant the time Savage disarmed Dooku and sent him flying back against a wall with a saberstaff strike.

https://youtu.be/7s3x8ox2ToE?t=1m19s

Savage isn't human though.

Wouldn't put this past ROTS Anakin considering how he floors Mace during both a bladelock and their duel in the ROTS videogame.

Nick Gillard and Hayden worked on the game a lot and I think I saved the quote of Gillard basically saying how Anakin VS Mace in the game is what would likely happen.

EDIT:

Wait here it is:

"On a movie, obviously I have a script. I know the story of the movie. I know how the characters are feeling, why they're fighting, where they've got to go. I think it's going to be pretty much the same on this game. The sets are all the same. The characters are the same. I'm going to take the same approach-I'm just going to get it much more detailed because it's much tighter than it is on the movie, and there's so much more time with the game."

^ All I'm missing is where it's from. Saved the quote from Ant although I trust him.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Raptor22
is that something that's an established rule tho? I feel like too many force users have been probed, had their thoughts read or straight up mind whammied with no backlash for it to be established. The kyp scene seems like more of the exception than the rule.
Almost all instances can be reconciled / explained, I imagine.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by TheNuisanceBird
I think he meant the time Savage disarmed Dooku and sent him flying back against a wall with a saberstaff strike.

https://youtu.be/7s3x8ox2ToE?t=1m19s

No, that's telekinesis.

TheNuisanceBird
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
No, that's telekinesis.

Really? I wouldn't be able to tell because of the close ups.

Lol About Dooku getting disarmed, reminds me of Dark Disciple when Vos casually disarms Dooku with telekinesis.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by TheNuisanceBird
Really? I wouldn't be able to tell because of the close ups.

Lol About Dooku getting disarmed, reminds me of Dark Disciple when Vos casually disarms Dooku with telekinesis.

The angle at which Savage strikes makes it extremely unlikely for it to be because of his lightsaber, especially considering the way Dooku flies as if he's just been Force pushed:

1. https://i.imgur.com/kUuSCx7.png
2. https://i.imgur.com/IlDJfAn.png
3. https://i.imgur.com/trUVtkp.png

Dooku seems to be gaining ground in the air, or at least maintaining it, despite the angle Opress striking it being directed quite downwards. It doesn't match up. The main indicator it being telekinesis, though, is the sound effect accompanying it, which is totally different to two lightsabers clashing, but rather is similar to one of the sound effects used for Force push:

a. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDTDCRmYM9Q&t=3m32s
b. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKrUrAvSnOs&t=22m49s
c. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKrUrAvSnOs&t=26m58s
d. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDTDCRmYM9Q&t=0m54s

The sound effect is overlapped with two lightsabers colliding, hence why it's hard to tell, since both happen simultaneously.

But, overall, it makes more sense than Savage doing something like this and never again showing such level of physical strength.

Compared to Savage utilizing telekinesis in conjecture with his Force attacks, which he consistently does throughout the fight.

TheNuisanceBird
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The angle at which Savage strikes makes it extremely unlikely for it to be because of his lightsaber, especially considering the way Dooku flies as if he's just been Force pushed:

1. https://i.imgur.com/kUuSCx7.png
2. https://i.imgur.com/IlDJfAn.png
3. https://i.imgur.com/trUVtkp.png

Dooku seems to be gaining ground in the air, or at least maintaining it, despite the angle Opress striking it being directed quite downwards. It doesn't match up. The main indicator it being telekinesis, though, is the sound effect accompanying it, which is totally different to two lightsabers clashing, but rather is similar to one of the sound effects used for Force push:

a. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDTDCRmYM9Q&t=3m32s
b. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKrUrAvSnOs&t=22m49s
c. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKrUrAvSnOs&t=26m58s
d. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDTDCRmYM9Q&t=0m54s

The sound effect is overlapped with two lightsabers colliding, hence why it's hard to tell, since both happen simultaneously.

But, overall, it makes more sense than Savage doing something like this and never again showing such level of physical strength.

Compared to Savage utilizing telekinesis in conjecture with his Force attacks, which he consistently does throughout the fight.

Perhaps, fair enough. But we later see Savage managing to push Sidious back in a bladelock during their fight with Maul.

While Sidious was holding back, this is still impressive and I feel it's a valid feat of strength regardless, especially in ROTS when Mace gets ahold of Sidious and he's like; "FRACK FRACK FRACK FRACK FRACK".

But yeah, I guess this changes what I included in my Savage VS Kota video. I know there were a bunch of deleted scenes and animatics so it may have been recut since the final edit wasn't that good lol

Would actually really be interested in a fistfight between Anakin and Savage. Savage managed to drive both Kenobi and Skywalker back while debatably amped. I say this because it seems that the more he goes on in a fight, the more dangerous he becomes idk.

I wish we got a one on one duel with Anakin and Savage since one thing I agree with in Antoine's video is that we've never really seen Anakin fight a juggernaut like himself since he's always fought Dooku and Ventress. Bane isn't one of them however.

Oh yeah I heard that Exar Kun was able to put so much power behind his blows that he sent shockwaves out that could be heard/felt miles away. Wouldn't be surprised if Anakin using his full capacity against Dooku shook the entire warship lol.

Zett
Jedi 10/10

Bane wasn't even able, to overcame Zannah's defense. Despite him being a declared swordsman, while she was not.
Even a moderate skilled duelist like Sarro, with some BM's amp was able to firmly press her. There is no way, she would be able to survive Anakin's onslaught.
Kenobi was also too good for her, but it would take longer for him to take her.

Bane wouldn't be albo to survive Anakin's onslaught as well. He would also not be able to overcame Kenobi's defense. Not with his saber skill nor lightning. The only chance would be TK attack, but Kenobi's guard have to be lowered for that. And there is a small chance, that either Bane or Zannah would be able to outmanuver Kenobi in a saber fight, like Dooku did in ROTS or TCW.

Not sure if any of Jedi would solo, but as a team, they takes it every single time.

godemperortrump
Tbf, Zannah's defense was "virtually impenetrable." She is the worst duelist here, but it doesn't mean she's completely helpless.

McP
She was indeed overhelmed by Sarro. No way that she would survive long against Anakin.

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