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Now that it's well established skill can beat power, how does base Goku do against the two in the Buu saga?

I think he can take them.

Skill only beats power in Super, to explain how Goku who is out of energy can beat someone 100x stronger than him, and also to make Roshi relevant.

That being said, it depends on if you believe something from the Daizenshuu that Goten was as strong as Gohan, then they would easily win in ssj, also Goten and Trunks tend to work well together as a team. And they were stronger than 18, who was definitely stronger than Base Goku..so.

Boo-era? Yeah, SSJ Trunks & Goten stomp the living shit out of base Goku.


1.) The boys gave #18 trouble in their base levels -- and that was when they were neutered by wearing Mighty Mask's oversized costume, and also knew they had to hold back as not to significantly harm/kill her. Despite these glaring disadvantages, however, #18 still shit her pants when they actually powered up to SSJ and launched a blast at her:
https://i.imgur.com/neXMw0b.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/aVlT1pV.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/20KsVZF.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/34futI6.jpg
#18: "You've gotta be kidding me... That speed... That power... Are those twits really THAT good!?"


2.) Even Piccolo appeared awestruck by their max powers as SSJ -- the shocked expression + nervous sweat are indicative of such:
https://i.imgur.com/01jVq0s.jpg


3.) SSJ Goten appeared to be overwhelming SSJ Gohan's defenses during their brief sparring session, until Gohan took flight(which Goten couldn't do at the time):
https://i.imgur.com/rg1539x.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/yg607jg.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/fuW3cfU.jpg
*Additionally, the Daizenshuu explicitly states that Boo-era Goten "posses battle power not the least bit inferior to even Gohan."


4.) SSJ Trunks was stated to be slightly more powerful than Goten:
https://i.imgur.com/01jVq0s.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/EAqgjhO.jpg


5.) SSJ Trunks appeared to be overwhelming a powered up SSJ Vegeta during their little sparring session, before Vegeta got pissed and countered with an all-out/serious punch:
https://i.imgur.com/DI3ijYy.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/siozfRB.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Gtx96xz.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/pVWY6MS.jpg


6.) A kick from an enraged SSJ Trunks did a LOT more to Fat Boo than a kick from an enraged SSJ(maybe even SSJ2..?) Gohan...

-Gohan's kick:
https://i.imgur.com/UQDyOt0.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/k9aJxDS.jpg

-Trunks' kick:
https://i.imgur.com/qb2csC6.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/PXwjCRh.jpg


7.) There is also a title page from the manga which states that the boys were the most powerful beings on earth(excluding the adult Saiyans, who could access higher levels of SSJ than them):
https://i.imgur.com/iXn8UMl.jpg


ie. SSJ Trunks (slightly)> SSJ Goten > Boo-era Piccolo > #18 >>> base Goku.


*And keep in mind, all of the above occurred BEFORE the boys trained in the RoSaT.

Unfair to compare Gohan kick against Trunks. Since, buu was knew Gohan attack was coming and brace it, while Trunks kick took buu out without him noticing.

and base Goku would school those kids. Mr. Popo himself was able to slow those two down, filler or not.

Originally posted by vansonbee
Unfair to compare Gohan kick against Trunks. Since, buu was knew Gohan attack was coming and brace it, while Trunks kick took buu out without him noticing.

and base Goku would school those kids. Mr. Popo himself was able to slow those two down, filler or not. Incorrect. Gohan's kick caught Boo completely off guard as well:
https://i.imgur.com/woQIq1d.jpg


The Popo scene is non-canon filler. Fact is, base Goku would get utterly stomped by either of the boys individually. Both of them together makes this spite of the highest order.

Originally posted by Kento
Skill only beats power in Super, to explain how Goku who is out of energy can beat someone 100x stronger than him, and also to make Roshi relevant.

That being said, it depends on if you believe something from the Daizenshuu that Goten was as strong as Gohan, then they would easily win in ssj, also Goten and Trunks tend to work well together as a team. And they were stronger than 18, who was definitely stronger than Base Goku..so.

All the way back in early Dragon Ball, Mr. PoPo was taking Goku to school after his first win against Piccolo, and Goku claimed he wasn't all that strong. It was all skill.

Goku vaporizes both with a warp-kamehameha or warp-kiezan.

That and if we go by Buu Saga logic, Base Saiyans > Supreme Kai > Piccolo >> Android 18 =/= SSJ Goten and Trunks.

Originally posted by Galan007

ie. SSJ Trunks (slightly)> SSJ Goten > Boo-era Piccolo > #18 >>> base Goku.


*And keep in mind, all of the above occurred BEFORE the boys trained in the RoSaT.

Besides the little text there, I see nothing that supports that.

Boo-era Piccolo would at that point easily be > #17 on his way to first form cell.

Do the kids have some crazy showings? Sure. But against non serious opponents, not to mention Gohans kick against Buu was from a far closer range than Trunks' sky diving miracle kick. After having received some heavy damage from Buu as well.

Originally posted by Damborgson
Besides the little text there, I see nothing that supports that.

Boo-era Piccolo would at that point easily be > #17 on his way to first form cell.

Do the kids have some crazy showings? Sure. But against non serious opponents, not to mention Gohans kick against Buu was from a far closer range than Trunks' sky diving miracle kick. After having received some heavy damage from Buu as well. Sorry, but as mentioned in my first post: the Daizenshuu explicitly states that during the Boo-era, Goten is EQUAL TO Gohan(pre-Kaioshin amp, obv.)

...Even if you want to handwave away everything else I posted, there's really no arguing the Daizenshuu(any attempts to do so would be quite foolish.)


So again, as of the Boo-era: SSJ Trunks (slightly)> SSJ Goten = SSJ Gohan > Piccolo > #18 >>> 100% Freeza > base Goku.

Originally posted by Galan007
Sorry, but as mentioned in my first post: the Daizenshuu explicitly states that during the Boo-era, Goten is EQUAL TO Gohan(pre-Kaioshin amp, obv.)

...Even if you want to handwave away everything else I posted, there's really no arguing the Daizenshuu(any attempts to do so would be quite foolish.)


So again, as of the Boo-era: SSJ Trunks (slightly)> SSJ Goten = SSJ Gohan > Piccolo > #18 >>> 100% Freeza > base Goku.

Okay, fair enough on that. There's enough ambiguity to his showings to not be able to adequately refute that Daizenshuu statement.

Wait, we're really rolling with the idea that Kid Trunks is stronger than Gohan?

Base Goku wins. Just by skill alone. See fight with Caulifla

Originally posted by Galan007
Sorry, but as mentioned in my first post: the Daizenshuu explicitly states that during the Boo-era, Goten is EQUAL TO Gohan(pre-Kaioshin amp, obv.)

...Even if you want to handwave away everything else I posted, there's really no arguing the Daizenshuu(any attempts to do so would be quite foolish.)


So again, as of the Boo-era: SSJ Trunks (slightly)> SSJ Goten = SSJ Gohan > Piccolo > #18 >>> 100% Freeza > base Goku. I'll take the manga over the Daizenshu personally ( ) but it doesn't matter. Piccolo is stronger than Goten and Trunks, as shown when the fusion time expires for Buutenks. Kaioshin is stronger than Piccolo, per Piccolo's own statements. Base Goku and Vegeta are stronger than Kaioshin, per Kaioshin's own statements (and the daiz iirc). So, long story short, Goku beats the piss out of the kids, be it through strategy or brute strength.

Originally posted by bbrem123
Base Goku wins. Just by skill alone. See fight with Caulifla *This is Boo-era base Goku -- back when he was still weaker than 4th form Freeza. He doesn't stand a chance in hell against the boys, skill be damned.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Wait, we're really rolling with the idea that Kid Trunks is stronger than Gohan? Yes indeed. By all accounts Trunks was slightly more powerful than Goten, who was equal to Gohan according to the Daizenshuu. However, that is just raw strength/power.

Obviously SSJ Gohan would still beat SSJ Kid Trunks in a fight every single time, though. Gohan is still a MUCH better fighter, after all, and Trunks isn't more powerful by a large enough amount for it to bridge the gap in skill.

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
I'll take the manga over the Daizenshu personally ( ) but it doesn't matter. Piccolo is stronger than Goten and Trunks, as shown when the fusion time expires for Buutenks. Good, because the manga doesn't contradict the Daizenshuu here at all.

That is because when the boys de-fused within Boo, they split up into their individual BASE levels -- we saw this when Goku and Vegeta rescued them:
https://i.imgur.com/kShTdWm.jpg

Of course Piccolo is > two base-level Saiyan children, lol.

Originally posted by Galan007
*This is Boo-era base Goku -- back when he was still weaker than 4th form Freeza. He doesn't stand a chance in hell against the boys, skill be damned.

Yes indeed. By all accounts Trunks was slightly more powerful than Goten, who was equal to Gohan according to the Daizenshuu. However, that is just raw strength/power.

Obviously SSJ Gohan would still beat SSJ Kid Trunks in a fight every single time, though. Gohan is still a MUCH better fighter, after all, and Trunks isn't more powerful by a large enough amount for it to bridge the gap in skill.

Good, because the manga doesn't contradict the Daizenshuu here at all.

That is because when the boys de-fused within Boo, they split up into their individual BASE levels -- we saw this when Goku and Vegeta rescued them:
https://i.imgur.com/kShTdWm.jpg

Of course Piccolo is > two base-level Saiyan children, lol. If Buu knows how to replicate all of their techniques, it also stands to reason that he knows how to tap into their Super Saiyan power, so I don't buy any notion that Toriyama was making the point "Hey guys, by having Buutenks become Bucciolo, I am only suggesting that Piccolo > Base Goten/Trunks." Nah, no way.

Goten being = to pre tournament training Gohan, doesn't make Trunks stronger than Gohan at the tournament.

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
If Buu knows how to replicate all of their techniques, it also stands to reason that he knows how to tap into their Super Saiyan power, so I don't buy any notion that Toriyama was making the point "Hey guys, by having Buutenks become Bucciolo, I am only suggesting that Piccolo > Base Goten/Trunks." Nah, no way. *sighs*

After the fusion timed-out, Bootenks reverted into Booccolo(which makes sense because the boys each went back to their BASE levels, and obviously Piccolo > base Goten/Trunks.)

However, Boo didn't need to worry about trying to use the boys' individual SSJ powers, because he immediately absorbed Gohan -- that was his plan all along:
https://i.imgur.com/XuY6r7Z.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/zp0KxKl.jpg


...So what excuse are you going to come up with now? mmm

Originally posted by Galan007
*sighs*

After the fusion timed-out, Bootenks reverted into Booccolo(which makes sense because the boys each went back to their BASE levels, and obviously Piccolo > base Goten/Trunks.)

However, Boo didn't need to worry about trying to use the boys' individual SSJ powers, because he immediately absorbed Gohan -- that was his plan all along:
https://i.imgur.com/XuY6r7Z.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/zp0KxKl.jpg


...So what excuse are you going to come up with now? mmm I've got a million of 'em, but you should try clearing your plate first before talking about dessert.

Excuses is a term I'd use to describe pure and absolute guesswork. Guesswork like this notion that the boys were in their base state at the time Buutenks reverts to Buucilo. Guesswork like this notion Buu is actively swapping his victims in and out of their suppressed states in order to tap into their power as opposed to simply having the power like Cell. All guesswork. All baseless. And all meaningless to our conversation. The only thing we know is that the author took the time to have Buu take on Piccolo's form the minute Gotenks fusion time expired. And again, it's a bit too much of a stretch for me to believe Toriyama was using that scene to make the point of "Hey guys, by having Buutenks become Bucciolo, I am only suggesting that Piccolo > Base Goten/Trunks." Just not how he operates. Same reason he doesn't bother to have anyone "power up" to fuel the genki dama.

Why would we assume anything else? They've always unfused into base.



I don't recall Cell ever absorbing anyone who transforms to increase their power.



I really don't think Toriyama cared whether Piccolo was stronger than the kids or not.

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
I've got a million of 'em, but you should try clearing your plate first before talking about dessert.

Excuses is a term I'd use to describe pure and absolute guesswork. Guesswork like this notion that the boys were in their base state at the time Buutenks reverts to Buucilo. Guesswork like this notion Buu is actively swapping his victims in and out of their suppressed states in order to tap into their power as opposed to simply having the power like Cell. All guesswork. All baseless. And all meaningless to our conversation. The only thing we know is that the author took the time to have Buu take on Piccolo's form the minute Gotenks fusion time expired. And again, it's a bit too much of a stretch for me to believe Toriyama was using that scene to make the point of "Hey guys, by having Buutenks become Bucciolo, I am only suggesting that Piccolo > Base Goten/Trunks." Just not how he operates. Same reason he doesn't bother to have anyone "power up" to fuel the genki dama. ...none



https://i.imgur.com/YLbMOKB.gif

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Why would we assume anything else? They've always unfused into base. You're missing the point. We don't know how the mechanics of him using their powers operates. Whether that involves them switching in an out of SSJ, having them all go from suppressed to full power individually, him having that power innately now while they are absorbed or anything in that regard really.

I think he did in GT briefly, but other than that though, he seems to get by just fine with the abilities of people whose cells he has or are otherwise jucified.

I don't think he cared enough to make the distinction that SSJ Goten and Trunks > Piccolo > Base Goten and Trunks anymore than he cares to have characters go Super saiyan before giving energy to the spirit bomb

The point of the scene is pretty straightforward: Strongest person absorbed = Most design influence. In this case, Gotenks was the strongest, so Buu got the fusion jacket. Gotenks defuses, so now he has Piccolo's cape. Pure. Simple. Straightforward.

Originally posted by Galan007
...none



https://i.imgur.com/YLbMOKB.gif

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
You're missing the point. We don't know how the mechanics of him using their powers operates. Whether that involves them switching in an out of SSJ, having them all go from suppressed to full power individually, him having that power innately now while they are absorbed or anything in that regard really.

I think he did in GT briefly, but other than that though, he seems to get by just fine with the abilities of people whose cells he has or are otherwise jucified.

I don't think he cared enough to make the distinction that SSJ Goten and Trunks > Piccolo > Base Goten and Trunks anymore than he cares to have characters go Super saiyan before giving energy to the spirit bomb

The point of the scene is pretty straightforward: Strongest person absorbed = Most design influence. In this case, Gotenks was the strongest, so Buu got the fusion jacket. Gotenks defuses, so now he has Piccolo's cape. Pure. Simple. Straightforward.

Shut the **** up. You're missing the point, you neophyte.

The kids stopped being SSJ the moment they defused, otherwise they still would have been SSJ when Goku and Vegeta found them. It's not hard at all for them to stay SSJ for a few hours. They're more naturally skilled at using SSJ than Goku and Gohan, and they stayed SSJ1 for over a week, with ease.

Toriyama was establishing NOTHING other than the fact that Piccolo was stronger than the base saiyan kids, which should be obvious, to anyone that isn't retarded.

RIGHT. Gotenks defused, leaving the two base form Saiyan children and Piccolo, OUT OF WHICH, PICCOLO WAS THE STRONGEST- I.E. WHY HE WAS THE DOMINANT ABSORBEE.

BUUTENKS >>> MYSTIC GOHAN > BUUCOLO >>> PICCOLO > BASE FORM TRUNKS > BASE FORM GOTEN

THEM AS SSJ1 MAKES THEM STRONGER THAN PICCOLO. Otherwise he wouldn't have shit his cape when they went full power on the lookout. Piccolo was fodder compared to even Shin, the Supreme Kai. SSJ1 Trunks did more damage to Buu with a kick than Shin did with his strongest, most desperate attack. SSJ1 Trunks is arguably stronger than Shin himself, and Piccolo was trash compared to him.

SSJ1 Trunks > Shin >>> Piccolo > Base Trunks

Not that complicated.

I agree.

Lol, ikr?

Not to mention that EVERY single time the boys have canonically fused, they've done so from their BASE levels:

1st time in DBZ:
https://i.imgur.com/PiChe4R.jpg

2nd time in DBZ:
https://i.imgur.com/KsiUxTZ.jpg

3rd time in DBZ:
https://i.imgur.com/GSBSBCv.jpg

4th time in the film "Yo! Son Goku and His Friends Return!!" (yes, it's canon):
https://i.imgur.com/ouuJLDY.jpg

5th time in BoG:
https://i.imgur.com/5efXK8i.gif

6th time in DBS:
https://i.imgur.com/MiZAVJd.gif


...So why in the hell anyone would try to pretend like they'd return to anything but their BASE levels upon de-fusing is hysterically stupid. What? You think they inextricably POWER UP when they split?

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Shut the **** up. You're missing the point, you neophyte.Did I touch a nerve? Wait to you hear my opinion on base multiplier theories, the strongest Buu and whatever other pressing hot button issue I'm forgetting. Guaranteed to burst a blood vessel.

That's all well and good, but do you know the mechanic's of Buu's absorption powers? Do you know if it involves him switching his victims in and out of suppressed/transformed states or if he simply has their abilities innately while they lie dormant? If so, quote and source. If not, unless you wanna talk fanfiction, we don't have anything else to talk about. It's really that simple.

It doesn't look like he was establishing anything besides strongest absorbed victim = Most design influence. The "base saiyan kids" part is something you and others are inferring as a result of pure speculation as to how Buu's abilities work. Much like power levels, base multiplier theories and fan calcs and whatever else I'm forgetting, something I don't really deal in. Sorry.

Trunks caught Buu "off guard", which appears to be Toriyama's ultimate equalizer since that's pretty much always the excuse given when someone gets in a really good hit regardless of the difference in strength.

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
You're missing the point. We don't know how the mechanics of him using their powers operates. Whether that involves them switching in an out of SSJ, having them all go from suppressed to full power individually, him having that power innately now while they are absorbed or anything in that regard really.

Now you're the one making assumptions. None of your alternatives were indicated to be the case anywhere in the manga.



Well, GT isn't canon.



I don't believe he made that distinction; rather, he made the distinction that SSJ3 Gotenks > Piccolo > Base Goten and Trunks. Nothing more, nothing less. Whether or not Piccolo is as strong as SSJ Goten or SSJ Trunks wasn't addressed at all in that scene.

Originally posted by Galan007
Lol, ikr?

Not to mention that EVERY single time the boys have canonically fused, they've done so from their BASE levels:I appreciate the enthusiasm, but if you're gonna try to one me up on minutia, you should at least make sure you're correct about it . . .

http://i10.mangareader.net/dragon-ball/483/dragon-ball-1651985.jpg
http://i2.mangareader.net/dragon-ball/483/dragon-ball-1651986.jpg
http://i6.mangareader.net/dragon-ball/483/dragon-ball-1651987.jpg
http://i4.mangareader.net/dragon-ball/483/dragon-ball-1651988.jpg

. . . or else you might end up looking hysterically stupid in the process.

^Yeah, I was about to say...

Originally posted by Galan007

4th time in the film "Yo! Son Goku and His Friends Return!!" (yes, it's canon)

Well, if you're going to use that... Wouldn't it be a bit hypocritical of you not to consider Goku saying Frieza (whom he didn't consider much of a foe, himself) would be a perfect match for the kids?

Lol, that was before the boys realized that going SSJ after fusion was a possibility. After that scene, they never powered up beyond base again before fusing, because they don't need to. I should have mentioned it beforehand, though.

This brings me to me next question: did they power up to SSJ before Boo absorbed them? Yes or no. If the answer is 'no'(and I'm certain it will be), then your opinion isn't any less idiotic.


...Not that you'll answer the question directly, though. You'll just respond with more troll-esque drivel... Seems to be your MO.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Well, if you're going to use that... Wouldn't it be a bit hypocritical of you not to consider Goku saying Frieza (whom he didn't consider much of a foe, himself) would be a perfect match for the kids? Eh, why on earth is it hypocritical? The boys easily trounced the 'Freeza-level' Abo & Kado in their BASE levels without ever powering up. The *only* issue they had during the fight is when A&K used cloning -- and that was just because they had never seen that technique before and weren't yet adept at reading ki(which was easily corrected with some coaching from Gohan.)

The boys, at base, were a LOT more powerful, though. srsly

Originally posted by Galan007
Lol, that was before the boys realized *snip*.Oh don't give me the run-around routine. You misspoke. Clearly. I did the same thing in an above post when I was making the point that we don't know how whether the boys were SSJ or not when Buutenks defused. Clearly. Now it's 1-1. Game is tied! Are we going into overtime? Next point wins maybe? Lol. But really, who cares about minutia?

So like I said...
Originally posted by Galan007
...Not that you'll answer the question directly, though. You'll just respond with more troll-esque drivel... Seems to be your MO.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Now you're the one making assumptions. None of your alternatives were indicated to be the case anywhere in the manga.That's on account of the fact that this is simply not an issue that is by any means addressed in the manga. All we know is that Buu keeps his victims stored in his body. Whether he needs to puppeteer them (i.e. have the boys go SSJ, power up, use abilities) or has simply has their abilities innately is pure postulation on the fans part.

It's not, but that was a pretty badass image from Cell nonetheless.

If Tori gave any significance to the base forms during this scene or was the type of writer to give that much attention to detail, I could agree. But when I see stuff like nobody going Super Saiyan to give their ki to the genki dama, I'm more inclined to have a simpler outlook on his intentions. I'll agree to disagree here.

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
Oh don't give me the run-around routine. You misspoke. Clearly. I did the same thing in an above post when I was making the point that we don't know how whether the boys were SSJ or not when Buutenks defused. Clearly. Now it's 1-1. Game is tied! Are we going into overtime? Next point wins maybe? Lol. But really, who cares about minutia?

Are you daft? Do you realize that you're injecting a pointless, and superficial variable here, that has no support in the source material, whatsoever? Every time the boys have unfused, they've been reverted to base form. Also, Buu wouldn't have needed to rely on Gotenks' power in the first place if he could control the forms of his absorption's. Since he could, you know, RE-FUSE THEM INSIDE OF HIM. If he could control their actions, he would be able to make them fuse again, since they know how to do it extremely well. No. It's that simple. He can't control their forms, OR their actions, while they're inside him.

Originally posted by Galan007
The boys easily trounced the 'Freeza-level' Abo & Kado in their BASE levels without ever powering up.


Well, you just got done pointing out that Goku himself isn't as strong as Frieza in base, so hopefully we can agree that Tarble's comparison was garbage.

What's more important is, regardless of how strong Abo Cado actually turned out to be, Goku considered a Frieza-level opponent to be about right the kids.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Well, you just got done pointing out that Goku himself isn't as strong as Frieza in base, so hopefully we can agree that Tarble's comparison was garbage.

What's more important is, regardless of how strong Abo Cado actually turned out to be, Goku considered a Frieza-level opponent to be about right the kids.

That special was garbage, altogether.

Right. He considered two Frieza level opponents to be just right for the kids... In base form. They didn't even go SSJ against them. Keep in mind this was the boys when they were out of practice, and had gotten weaker, like Gohan.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Are you daft? Do you realize that you're injecting a pointless, and superficial variable here, that has no support in the source material, whatsoever? Every time the boys have unfused, they've been reverted to base form.What part of "I misspoke" are you not understanding here?

Yes, goten and trunks have always defused to base and my previous example of us not knowing whether they were SSJ or not is rendered moot as a result, but my actual point remains intact. We have no clue whether Buu has his victims abilities innately or needs to actually manipulate them in the fashion (i.e. swap 'em in an out of SSJ) you're alluding to. Hence, guesswork.

At no point does Tori make this an issue. Presumably due to Gotenks's one hour cooldown time making refusion impossible under the circumstances and Vegito just being too broken for it to matter. You could very well be right, but we don't have enough information to know one way or the other. All guesswork unfortunately.

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
What part of "I misspoke" are you not understanding here?

Yes, goten and trunks have always defused to base and my previous example of us not knowing whether they were SSJ or not is rendered moot as a result, but my actual point remains intact. We have no clue whether Buu has his victims abilities innately or needs to actually manipulate them in the fashion (i.e. swap 'em in an out of SSJ) you're alluding to. Hence, guesswork.

At no point does Tori make this an issue. Presumably due to Gotenks's one hour cooldown time making refusion impossible under the circumstances and Vegito just being too broken for it to matter. You could very well be right, but we don't have enough information to know one way or the other. All guesswork unfortunately.

What I guess I fail to understand about your thought process, is how any of that matters? The fact still remains that the boys are demonstrably not stronger than Piccolo in base form. In SSJ? Sure, I wholeheartedly believe they're around Perfect Cell level, based on their showings. Base form is a different story though. They're around Frieza level, according to Goku in the Yo special, which Piccolo surpassed by leaps and bounds during the Cell saga.

Also, the cooldown doesn't really matter. Having to wait an hour for fusion to be ready again wasn't a problem for Buu before, and Buucolo was much smarter and more powerful than Super Buu. This is all pointless to talk about though- the fact of the matter is that Buu can't control his absorption's based on his own showings, and this debunks your little argument of Piccolo being > SSJ Trunks/Goten.

In regards to the thread, Goten and Trunks win easily, and might even pull wins in base form.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Well, you just got done pointing out that Goku himself isn't as strong as Frieza in base, so hopefully we can agree that Tarble's comparison was garbage.

What's more important is, regardless of how strong Abo Cado actually turned out to be, Goku considered a Frieza-level opponent to be about right the kids. You're confused.

The manga(which was directly overseen by Toriyama) makes it clear that Tarble was using FIRST form Freeza as a reference for Abo & Kado's level of power:
https://i.imgur.com/0imk630.jpg
...Which makes sense, as Tarble wouldn't have even known that Freeza had any higher transformations -- only a select few beings in the universe were privy to that knowledge.


And in the manga, once Goku hears A&K are on par with Freeza, he simply remarks that the boys will "be fine":
https://i.imgur.com/7naA35r.jpg
...Which also makes sense, because a PL of ~530,000 would be absolutely nothing to the boys. That's why they were able to stomp the bejesus out of A&K in their BASE levels... without even having to power up in their BASE levels.

As mentioned, the only 'issues' the boys had in that fight stemmed from their fighting skills becoming rusty in peaceful times -- but those issues were easily corrected with a bit of verbal coaching from the adults.

Originally posted by Galan007
The manga(which was directly overseen by Toriyama)

Never seen it. Do you have a link?



Yes, which is why I'm not lending any weight to Tarble's estimation of Frieza's (or AboCado's) power.



No, that's just it. He doesn't hear that. He hears that Abo and Cado are as strong as Frieza. To begin with, he's only ever met Frieza in his fourth form, so there's no reason at all for him to assume that they were talking about a suppressed Frieza.

As for whether he says "the kids will be fine," or "that's perfect for the kids," well, that's a matter of translation. I have no way of knowing if one is more credible than the other without seeing the raws.

You're trying to nitpick at this point. srsly

Tarble couldn't have been referencing anyone but FIRST form Freeza, because he didn't even know that Freeza had additional transformations(why else do you think FIRST form Freeza was recollected in Tarble's flashback in the page I posted above..?) Therefore, THAT is roughly how powerful he estimated Abo and Kado to be. Period.

Also, he may not have *fought* first form Freeza, but Goku *did* sense his ki shortly after arriving on Namek:
https://i.imgur.com/Cw8vFcJ.jpg


So like I said: Opinions aside, all *evidence* points to FIRST form Freeza being the comparison for A&K... Which makes a LOT more sense, given how easily the boys thrashed them.

So when Goku says, "Frieza... in retrospect, not much of a foe" he's not talking about the Frieza he fought, but the Frieza that he briefly noticed from afar. Seems legit.

From a logical standpoint Goku was referencing Freeza at the SAME level Tarble referenced: FIRST form. Why on earth would he bring up a form/power that Tarble didn't even know existed, lol?

That statement proves nothing, tbh -- NO version/form of Freeza was "much of a foe" to Goku at that point(he could go SSJ3, for gods sake.) Seems like you're trying really hard to contort the scene to match personal views, whilst not acknowledging any of the *actual* evidence I've mentioned. Doesn't work that way, unfortunately.

Originally posted by Galan007
From a logical standpoint Goku was referencing Freeza at the SAME level Tarble referenced: FIRST form. Why on earth would he bring up a form/power that Tarble didn't even know existed, lol? No matter what form Tarble was talking about, you give Goku a lot of credit thinking that Tarble or anyone else didn't know about 4th form Freeza.

Vegeta saying it would have made more sense, since he knew that nobody had any idea about Freeza's forms. Cause for all Goku knows is Freeza looked like that the whole time and never transformed.

Again, the scene's intent is crystal clear... Like it or not, the evidence really can't be ignored:

1.) FIRST form Freeza was explicitly shown in the flashback when Tarble recalled his defeat/death on Namek.

2.) Tarble didn't even know that Freeza had any higher transformations, and/or levels of power(not even Vegeta was privy to this information until Zarbon spilled the beans on Namek.) So as far as Tarble knew, Freeza's FIRST form *was* his peak.

3.) The above being said, Tarble literally couldn't have been comparing Abo and Kado to anything but FIRST form Freeza.

4.) What first form Freeza looked like is irrelevant -- it's all about the level of ki each of his forms generated... And Goku was very much aware of the ki that each of his forms possessed(remember, he was still sensing the entire battle with Freeza whilst in the regeneration tank.)

5.) Goku's vague/ambiguous statement that Freeza "isn't much of an opponent now" doesn't prove anything. Goku was capable of going SSJ3 at that point(the film takes place AFTER the Boo saga, remember) -- Freeza "wasn't much" to him any way you slice it.

6.) A&K being on par with FIRST form Freeza makes a LOT more sense, considering the boys were able to easily trounce them in their BASE levels...without even having to power up in their BASE levels(nevermind transform into SSJ.) A PL around 530,000 would obviously be nothing to them at base.

7.) Given that A&K were portrayed as laughably inept feebs, it makes a LOT more sense for them to have increased their PLs from Ginyu Force-level(between 30-40k), to FIRST form Freeza-level(~530k) in the 4 years between the Namek saga and the events of this film. The other alternative is that these idiotic buffoons somehow went from 30-40k, to FINAL form Freeza-level(~120,000,000) in 4 years. Bias aside, which do you think is honestly more likely given their characterization? srsly


*On a sidenote, I believe that Goku DID know what FIRST form Freeza looked like... Remember when he arrived on Namek and pulled that random TP ability out of his ass that was never used/mentioned again? With it, Goku was able to instantly read Krillin's thoughts -- essentially seeing/feeling everything Krillin had experienced on Namek(and FIRST form Freeza was obviously one of those things):
https://i.imgur.com/QRdDMLT.jpg

4 years?

And I was just talking about how dumb Goku is. Not caring what form he was talking about, because BoG arc makes it that Base Goku isn't > Final Form Freeza. So therefore Base Goten and Trunks can't be > Final Form Freeza because Base Goku > Base Goten and Trunks.

Originally posted by Kento
4 years?

And I was just talking about how dumb Goku is. Not caring what form he was talking about, because BoG arc makes it that Base Goku isn't > Final Form Freeza. So therefore Base Goten and Trunks can't be > Final Form Freeza because Base Goku > Base Goten and Trunks. Lmao, typo... 14 years. Although now that DBS/BoG has been retconned to starting just 6 months after the Boo saga, it's probably closer to 12.

Yeah, I agree. Hence FIRST form Freeza is the only logical answer.

XD I mean, besides 4th Form Freeza, it doesn't matter which form, Base Goten and Trunks win.

Goku and the Z fighters still use tp.

Originally posted by Kento
XD I mean, besides 4th Form Freeza, it doesn't matter which form, Base Goten and Trunks win.

Originally posted by Galan007
Again, the scene's intent is crystal clear... Like it or not, the evidence really can't be ignored:

1.) FIRST form Freeza was explicitly shown in the flashback when Tarble recalled his defeat/death on Namek.

2.) Tarble didn't even know that Freeza had any higher transformations, and/or levels of power(not even Vegeta was privy to this information until Zarbon spilled the beans on Namek.) So as far as Tarble knew, Freeza's FIRST form *was* his peak.

3.) The above being said, Tarble literally couldn't have been comparing Abo and Kado to anything but FIRST form Freeza.

4.) What first form Freeza looked like is irrelevant -- it's all about the level of ki each of his forms generated... And Goku was very much aware of the ki that each of his forms possessed(remember, he was still sensing the entire battle with Freeza whilst in the regeneration tank.)

5.) Goku's vague/ambiguous statement that Freeza "isn't much of an opponent now" doesn't prove anything. Goku was capable of going SSJ3 at that point(the film takes place AFTER the Boo saga, remember) -- Freeza "wasn't much" to him any way you slice it.

6.) A&K being on par with FIRST form Freeza makes a LOT more sense, considering the boys were able to easily trounce them in their BASE levels...without even having to power up in their BASE levels(nevermind transform into SSJ.) A PL around 530,000 would obviously be nothing to them at base.

7.) Given that A&K were portrayed as laughably inept feebs, it makes a LOT more sense for them to have increased their PLs from Ginyu Force-level(between 30-40k), to FIRST form Freeza-level(~530k) in the 4 years between the Namek saga and the events of this film. The other alternative is that these idiotic buffoons somehow went from 30-40k, to FINAL form Freeza-level(~120,000,000) in 4 years. Bias aside, which do you think is honestly more likely given their characterization? srsly


*On a sidenote, I believe that Goku DID know what FIRST form Freeza looked like... Remember when he arrived on Namek and pulled that random TP ability out of his ass that was never used/mentioned again? With it, Goku was able to instantly read Krillin's thoughts -- essentially seeing/feeling everything Krillin had experienced on Namek(and FIRST form Freeza was obviously one of those things):
https://i.imgur.com/QRdDMLT.jpg

What I don't think you're considering is that both statements could be true. Goku had never met First form Frieza himself, and obviously was thinking of Final form. While Tarble said they had gotten stronger than Frieza, he could have meant first form, sure. But Final form is also stronger than first form. In all actuality, Tarble could have been saying they had gotten vastly stronger than Frieza, and Goku himself could have pinned that to around final form Frieza level.

I think the intents were very different than what you're thinking, and I have to side with Kento on this one.

IMO, they were trying to show that the boys were stronger than Frieza. That's all. Goku said Frieza wasn't much of a foe in hindsight, and that such a level was perfect for the kids. It wouldn't have made much sense for him to say that, in reference to a form of Frieza that he never met and had only felt the power level of once, from inside a healing chamber while barely conscious.

He literally had to be talking about Final form Frieza, even IF Tarble was referring to First form. After all, Final form IS stronger than first form, lol. This doesn't make either of them incorrect, where as your perception of this would involve Goku somehow having an Eidetic memory when he is notoriously known for having a bad memory, especially for faces and names. It's far more likely that he only remembered Final form Frieza, and probably even more likely that he didn't even remember Frieza having other forms in the first place, lol.

My point is that your analysis of this scene is assuming Goku is some intellectual that has a strong grasp on knowledge and the fact that Tarble doesn't know Frieza had other forms, as well as being able to remember everything about each of Frieza's forms, even though he hadn't encountered any but one of them, which happened DECADES ago.

It's far more reasonable to assume that Goku meant Final form Frieza, and that his analysis was more accurate given that Tarble couldn't even sense ki without a scouter in the first place. Goku can, and even with a scouter, it wouldn't have been able to read Frieza's power before exploding, lol.

That's just it: even though Goku DID feel the ki of FIRST form Freeza(AND use TP to gain the same familiarity with him that Krillin had), the specific version that *he* was referencing is ultimately irrelevant -- you are just trying to nitpick an extremely ambiguous comment.

*Tarble's* statement is what matters here, because *Tarble* wouldn't have even known that Freeza had additional transformations... So given that FIRST form Freeza was his ONLY reference, logic dictates that Tarble MUST have been comparing Abo & Kado to THAT version, period... That's why FIRST form Freeza was explicitly shown in the flashback where Tarble recalled hearing news of Freeza's death on Namek(why in the hell is everyone ignoring this, lol?) Not sure why you'd think that Tarble was comparing A&K to a version of Freeza that he DIDN'T EVEN KNOW EXISTED, but I digress... ermm

And again, A&K each being on par with FIRST form Freeza certainly helps explain why the boys were able to casually trounce them in their BASE levels, without even having to increase their ki at all. Had A&K been on par with FINAL form Freeza, the boys trouncing them in their BASE levels simply wouldn't have been possible.


...But anyway, I find myself repeating the same facts, ad nauseum. So unless you have something new to bring to the table, I'm done here. No offense intended -- it's just boring at this point.

No, no, no, that's just it. Tarble's statement doesn't matter at all; he's clueless. Goku's thoughts on the matter, and his comparison of Goten/Trunks to Frieza, are the only things that matter here. And regardless of Tarble's ignorance, there's no reason to think Goku didn't have Frieza as he knew him in mind.

Wait, what..?

Tarble only knew about FIRST form Freeza. He compared A&K to HIM. Why on earth does that not matter, lol?

And again: Goku was quite familiar with FIRST form Freeza as well -- I've shown you why/how with definitive proof. Fact is, his comment in the film is wholly ambiguous and doesn't narrow anything down at all... The scene from the canon manga, however, makes a LOT more sense:
https://i.imgur.com/7naA35r.jpg

*That's the VIZ translation, btw.

Well Trunks and goten roflstomped avo and Cado like weaklings without powering up. So doesn't that kind of prove that Gokus dialogue in the movie was incorrect? because Avo and Cado obv. WEREN'T "perfect" for the kids.


I agree with galen- Avo and cado were on the same level as frieza in his 1st form. everything points to that. plus theres just no damn way i can believe they were meant to be they same level as 100% frieza in his 4th form.

Originally posted by Galan007
That's just it: even though Goku DID feel the ki of FIRST form Freeza(AND use TP to gain the same familiarity with him that Krillin had), the specific version that *he* was referencing is ultimately irrelevant -- you are just trying to nitpick an extremely ambiguous comment.

*Tarble's* statement is what matters here, because *Tarble* wouldn't have even known that Freeza had additional transformations... So given that FIRST form Freeza was his ONLY reference, logic dictates that Tarble MUST have been comparing Abo & Kado to THAT version, period... That's why FIRST form Freeza was explicitly shown in the flashback where Tarble recalled hearing news of Freeza's death on Namek(why in the hell is everyone ignoring this, lol?) Not sure why you'd think that Tarble was comparing A&K to a version of Freeza that he DIDN'T EVEN KNOW EXISTED, but I digress... ermm

And again, A&K each being on par with FIRST form Freeza certainly helps explain why the boys were able to casually trounce them in their BASE levels, without even having to increase their ki at all. Had A&K been on par with FINAL form Freeza, the boys trouncing them in their BASE levels simply wouldn't have been possible.


...But anyway, I find myself repeating the same facts, ad nauseum. So unless you have something new to bring to the table, I'm done here. No offense intended -- it's just boring at this point.

You literally just ignored my entire argument.

I'll repeat myself- Goku had only met final form Frieza, and was therefor referring to him in final form. Tarble only knew about first form Frieza, therefor was referring to him in first form. THIS DOES NOT MAKE EITHER A CONTRADICTION.

Tarble said Abo and Kado were stronger than Frieza. Even if Goku was referring to Final form Frieza, this doesn't devalue Tarble's statement, SINCE FINAL FORM FRIEZA IS STRONGER THAN FIRST FORM FRIEZA.

Any way you slice it, the only assumption we can make on the context of the situation where Goku and Tarble aren't both completely retarded, is the one I'm proposing, where they're both right.

I'm not sure why you're so stuck on the idea that Tarble shouldn't know of Frieza's other forms, when it doesn't really even matter in the first place.

Originally posted by Galan007
arble only knew about FIRST form Freeza. He compared A&K to HIM. Why on earth does that not matter, lol?

Because how strong Tarble thinks Abo and Cado are is irrelevant. All that matters is how strong Goku thinks the kids are. Period.



The fact that he's technically aware of Frieza's first form doesn't mean when someone says "Frieza" that's what he thinks of by default, dude.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Because how strong Tarble thinks Abo and Cado are is irrelevant. All that matters is how strong Goku thinks the kids are. Period. Tarble has encountered A&K before... He KNEW how strong they were... He KNEW how strong FIRST form Freeza was... He DIDN'T know anything about Freeza's other forms, period. The fact that you're pretending like his comment doesn't matter here is hysterical, tbh... Especially given the ambiguity of Goku's comment in the film.

It's also worth noting that *only* Freeza's FIRST form(PL=530,000) could be numerically measured/read on a scouter(which he was happy to tell any would-be opponent: 530,000.) The rest of his transformations were beyond a scouter's ability to read...
https://i.imgur.com/N4reOAE.jpg
2nd Form Freeza: "IF any instrument could read my strength..."

Guess what? Tarble couldn't sense ki, and explicitly relied on scouters to read his opponents' PL. So unless you think he had a super-duper upgraded scouter that could inextricably read a PL of 120,000,000, then he would have NO way to even ballpark-compare A&K to final form Freeza... Even IF he knew about Freeza's other transformations.

FIRST form Freeza was Tarble's ONLY point of reference. From a logical standpoint, *that* is the level A&K were intended to be at. End of story.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
The fact that he's technically aware of Frieza's first form doesn't mean when someone says "Frieza" that's what he thinks of by default, dude. It doesn't mean he wasn't thinking about Freeza's first form, either... Dude. Goku's wholly ambiguous/generalized blanket statement about Freeza in the film isn't exactly an incontrovertible piece of evidence(obviously.)

What's not computing here?

Originally posted by Galan007
Tarble has encountered A&K before... He KNEW how strong they were... He KNEW how strong FIRST form Freeza was... He DIDN'T know anything about Freeza's other forms, period. The fact that you're pretending like his comment doesn't matter here is hysterical, tbh... Especially given the ambiguity of Goku's comment in the film.

It's also worth noting that *only* Freeza's FIRST form(PL=530,000) could be numerically measured/read on a scouter(which he was happy to tell any would-be opponent: 530,000.) The rest of his transformations were beyond a scouter's ability to read...
https://i.imgur.com/N4reOAE.jpg
2nd Form Freeza: "IF any instrument could read my strength..."

Guess what? Tarble couldn't sense ki, and explicitly relied on scouters to read his opponents' PL. So unless you think he had a super-duper upgraded scouter that could inextricably read a PL of 120,000,000, then he would have NO way to even ballpark-compare A&K to final form Freeza... Even IF he knew about Freeza's other transformations.

FIRST form Freeza was Tarble's ONLY point of reference. From a logical standpoint, *that* is the level A&K were intended to be at. End of story.

It doesn't mean he wasn't thinking about Freeza's first form, either... Dude. Goku's wholly ambiguous/generalized blanket statement about Freeza in the film isn't exactly an incontrovertible piece of evidence(obviously.)

What's not computing here?

>I say I'm not talking about Tarble's opinion, or Abo and Cado's power in general
>Galan replies with three paragraphs about why Tarble's thoughts on Abo and Cado are valid. Again.

It's mind blowing how someone who is generally pretty smart could miss the point so many times in a row.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
>I say I'm not talking about Tarble's opinion, or Abo and Cado's power in general
>Galan replies with three paragraphs about why Tarble's thoughts on Abo and Cado are valid. Again.

It's mind blowing how someone who is generally pretty smart could miss the point so many times in a row.

I agree with you, on this one.

Galan usually is pretty smart, maybe we're not explaining it well enough?

Originally posted by NewGuy01
>I say I'm not talking about Tarble's opinion, or Abo and Cado's power in general
>Galan replies with three paragraphs about why Tarble's thoughts on Abo and Cado are valid. Again.

It's mind blowing how someone who is generally pretty smart could miss the point so many times in a row. I'm not 'missing' anything, lol. I am ignoring your hysterically biased opinion.

You: "Tarble's statement doesn't matter!! Goku's completely ambiguous dialogue is the incontrovertible truth!!"

Why wouldn't I ignore that line of 'logic' in favor of facts that can actually be...you know... substantiated?

Originally posted by Galan007
I'm not 'missing' anything, lol. I am ignoring your hysterically biased opinion.

You: "Tarble's statement doesn't matter!! Goku's completely ambiguous dialogue is the incontrovertible truth!!"

Why wouldn't I ignore that line of 'logic' in favor of facts that can actually be...you know... substantiated?

Clearly, you are missing something.

That's not what either of us are saying. We're saying that Tarble's statement and Goku's can both be true. Final form Frieza is stronger than First form, and A + K were "stronger than Frieza". It wouldn't make sense to say, "Oh, well they were stronger than Frieza, but Frieza would lol-stomp in any form other than first form". That's contradictory, because they wouldn't be STRONGER than Frieza, they'd be stronger than the weakest form of Frieza.

All you're saying is, "No, Tarble didn't know of Frieza's other forms, so obviously Goku knew exactly what he was talking about and was agreeing with him."

Goku's not that smart, lol. It wouldn't make sense for Goku to be thinking of Frieza in his first form, despite never even seeing him. This doesn't mean Goku's an idiot, or Tarble is wrong, because as I said, "Both of them can be right".

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Clearly, you are missing something.

That's not what either of us are saying. We're saying that Tarble's statement and Goku's can both be true. Clearly you didn't read NewGuy's posts before you decided to start cheerleading him... Because he literally said the exact opposite:
Originally posted by NewGuy01
No, no, no, that's just it. Tarble's statement doesn't matter at all Originally posted by NewGuy01
Because how strong Tarble thinks Abo and Cado are is irrelevant. All that matters is how strong Goku thinks the kids are. Period.

"", indeed.

Originally posted by Galan007
Clearly you didn't read NewGuy's posts before you decided to start cheerleading him... Because he literally said the exact opposite:



"", indeed.

I'm not cheerleading anyone, lol. He might have taken a different approach, but he reached the same destination, and I agree with his answer.

You still haven't even acknowledged my argument though, jackass.

Edit: Btw, since when are we allowed to cuss on here?

Huh?

You said BOTH comments hold the same weight. NewGuy said Tarble's comment doesn't matter at all.

...In what world is that the 'same destination'?

Originally posted by Galan007
I'm not 'missing' anything, lol. I am ignoring your hysterically biased opinion.

What? You're not ignoring anything, you're responding with an argument that has nothing to do with what I'm trying to say.



Because Tarble's statement has no bearing on Goku's statement. All Tarble said was that Abo and Cado should be "around as strong as Frieza." Now, he may well be wrong about that; maybe he was comparing them to First Form Frieza. That's fine. I don't really care how strong Abo and Cado are.

More importantly, hearing that, Goku replies with: "Frieza, huh... In hindsight, not much of a foe. That's perfect for the kids."

Hindsight: Perception of the nature of an event after it has happened.

There is no reason to assume Goku would refer to the Frieza he didn't fight instead of the Frieza he actually fought when reflecting on how worthy of a foe he was in hindsight. It would be different if Tarble had mentioned First Form Frieza specifically, or if Goku gave any indication of accounting for Tarble's ignorance, but neither of those things happened.

The most reasonable thing to conclude from the dialogue is that Goku recalled his fight with Frieza, and decided that it was too low-level for him to be currently interested, but figured it would be a neat challenge for the kids. It wouldn't make any sense at all for him to say that if he were talking about suppressed Frieza; that would just be a spite match. Frankly, the "hysterically biased" thing to do would be to assume that Goku was thinking of the kids in base only, just so that your 1st Form Frieza comparison can still make a modicum of sense.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
What I guess I fail to understand about your thought process, is how any of that matters? The fact still remains that the boys are demonstrably not stronger than Piccolo in base form. In SSJ? Sure, I wholeheartedly believe they're around Perfect Cell level, based on their showings. Base form is a different story though. They're around Frieza level, according to Goku in the Yo special, which Piccolo surpassed by leaps and bounds during the Cell saga. The only evidence I've seen of the boys being stronger in SSJ is a comment from a title page calling Goten and Trunks the strongest heroes on earth now that Gohan, Vegeta and Goku are gone. Problem is that this gets undermined later when Buu reverts from Buutenks and Buccilo. Everything (and I mean literally everything) else I've seen posited on the subject is conjecture that doesn't appear to take into account the fact that DB is written by a mangaka with little regard for consistency, much less any care or interest in what Goku may have said two hundred chapters ago when he first stepped foot on namek. And while it's fun to lie to ourselves and come up with theories to explain why the boys would be able to do well against so-called Frieza level opponents in their base stats when it's later established that Base Goku is weaker than Frieza, lets not get carried away here.
Basically, he can't control his absorptions because you say so. Meanwhile, in the actual source material, no situation arises where we see such a limitation. Buu makes no attempt to go hide and wait an hour to try re-fusing; he doesn't need to. He absorbs Gohan immediately and immediately gains the upper-hand. Buuhan makes no attempt to go hide and wait an hour to try re-fusing against Vegito; he doesn't need to. He absorbs Vegito immediately and believes he has gained the upperhand. Saying Buu can't control his absorptions is the equivalent to saying there's no new namek in the future trunks timeline or else Future Trunks would have used the dragon balls. It's an argument from ignorance and therefore an argument to be rejected.We could stipulate that Goten and Trunks were stronger in SSJ and I'd still give Goku the upperhand. I've seen nothing from the boys that would convince me they have an answer to the two instant transmission combos we've seen Goku pull off in the cell and Buu arcs respectively. And if we turn CIS off and bloodlust everybody, Goku nukes the planet like Kid Buu and then ITs to King Kai's planet. Hell, we could stipulate Base Goku to being a 3 in base and Goten/Trunks to being 1s respectively and kaioken x 20 would immediately render SSJ null and void.

{deleted}


@NewGuy
I went back and deleted my response to you, because we are just talking in circles at this point... It's obvious that no one here is going to change their opinion on the matter, so we'll just have to agree to disagree. You are more than welcome to respond to my post if you want to get in a few last 'points' or w/e, but I am VERY much over this particular discussion... I'm sure you would agree that it has gone absolutely nowhere except into the realm of sheer boredom, lol.

...But thanks for the discussion anyway.

That's fine by me, if not mildly disappointing. I probably would have stopped by now too if I didn't remember how long it took us to get on the same page with those SSJB vs SSJ4 debates way back when.

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
The only evidence I've seen of the boys being stronger in SSJ is a comment from a title page calling Goten and Trunks the strongest heroes on earth now that Gohan, Vegeta and Goku are gone. Problem is that this gets undermined later when Buu reverts from Buutenks and Buccilo. Everything (and I mean literally everything) else I've seen posited on the subject is conjecture that doesn't appear to take into account the fact that DB is written by a mangaka with little regard for consistency, much less any care or interest in what Goku may have said two hundred chapters ago when he first stepped foot on namek. And while it's fun to lie to ourselves and come up with theories to explain why the boys would be able to do well against so-called Frieza level opponents in their base stats when it's later established that Base Goku is weaker than Frieza, lets not get carried away here.
Basically, he can't control his absorptions because you say so. Meanwhile, in the actual source material, no situation arises where we see such a limitation. Buu makes no attempt to go hide and wait an hour to try re-fusing; he doesn't need to. He absorbs Gohan immediately and immediately gains the upper-hand. Buuhan makes no attempt to go hide and wait an hour to try re-fusing against Vegito; he doesn't need to. He absorbs Vegito immediately and believes he has gained the upperhand. Saying Buu can't control his absorptions is the equivalent to saying there's no new namek in the future trunks timeline or else Future Trunks would have used the dragon balls. It's an argument from ignorance and therefore an argument to be rejected.We could stipulate that Goten and Trunks were stronger in SSJ and I'd still give Goku the upperhand. I've seen nothing from the boys that would convince me they have an answer to the two instant transmission combos we've seen Goku pull off in the cell and Buu arcs respectively. And if we turn CIS off and bloodlust everybody, Goku nukes the planet like Kid Buu and then ITs to King Kai's planet. Hell, we could stipulate Base Goku to being a 3 in base and Goten/Trunks to being 1s respectively and kaioken x 20 would immediately render SSJ null and void.

Holy shit, you're dumb.

1. Gohan was stronger than Shen, as a SSJ1, who was conversely much stronger than Piccolo, IOW's. SSJ1 Gohan > Shen >>> Piccolo. Then keep in mind that Goten is equal >= Gohan, and Trunks is even stronger than Goten.

Therefore: SSJ1 Trunks > SSJ1 Goten >= SSJ1 Gohan > Shen >>> Piccolo.

Go back to kindergarten and learn how to read, before you develop the audacity to argue with me against facts.

2. AGAIN, PICCOLO IS STRONGER THAN THE BASE FORM SAIYAN'S. THIS IS NOT NEWS. THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT HE IS STRONGER THAN THE AS SSJ'S. LET'S ALSO NOT FORGET THAT TRUNKS OVERPOWERED PICCOLO WHEN HE WENT TO FIGHT BUU, AND PICCOLO COULDN'T EVEN STOP GOTEN.

http://i2.mangareader.net/dragon-ball/467/dragon-ball-71833.jpg

Piccolo knew the boys would be no match for Buu, and still didn't stop them. Why? BECAUSE HE COULDN'T. He's not as strong as they are, plain and simple.

3. Actually, the situation DOES arise where Super Buu is limited by not being able to control his own absorptions while they're within his body. He literally just stores them in his body to use as batteries. He can't control them or their actions, which should be obvious in the first place, given their lack of CONSCIOUSNESS.

http://i9.mangareader.net/dragon-ball/508/dragon-ball-72353.jpg

If Super Buu could control the actions of his absorptions, he wouldn't have CEASED TO EXIST. He would have simply made Fat Buu wrap around Vegeta and absorb him, moved Fat Buu and hid him somewhere else in his body, or he would have simply made Fat Buu attack him.

The fact is that he didn't, so he couldn't. He literally lost his existence because he didn't control Fat Buu inside him. I'm pretty sure he would have, if he could have.

4. You're acting like a. The kids couldn't stop Goku from nuking the planet, despite being around 50 times stronger than him, since they're comparable to him in power bearing superior forms, and b. The kids bloodlusted wouldn't just kill Goku outright, before he could move.

5. You're ignoring the bottom line here, which is that Piccolo is NOT as strong as the boys in SSJ1, and that the boys are both comparable to Goku when each party is in base. Even if Goku was twice as strong as them, which he's not, IOW's, Kaioken X20 still wouldn't make him as strong as the boys in SSJ1. He'd still be far weaker, and using up vastly larger amounts of stamina. The boys would outlast him, while already being far stronger.

Goku has NO chance of winning here, if the boys are serious. Your little putrid, in-denial comments about him somehow being stronger than the SSJ boys in base form, and Piccolo being stronger than even the SSJ boys, is ludicrous.

Hell, Piccolo wasn't even strong enough to STOP the boys, let alone defeat them in a fight. Same thing for Goku- what makes you think he's beating someone stronger than SSJ Gohan, in base form?

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Holy shit, you're dumb.Says the guy who is about to educate me with his own personal glorified fanfiction.

That's nice, but any suggestion from the Daizenshuu that Goten = Gohan contradicts the manga, as Gohan himself, although impressed by Goten's potential, is fretful that him and Trunks could surpass him if he doesn't train . . . after managing to avoid every punch Goten could throw at him. What's more, the Daizenshuu also says Gohan's power hadn't decreased, outright disputing statements made during the Dabura fight, so I'll stick with the manga if you don't mind. Perhaps you can "go back to kindergarten" and learn a thing or two about rocks in glass houses. Dead horse. If Toriyama wanted to make the point you're making, it would've been real easy. Just put Super Buu in Trunks' clothes or have Goku say something like "Good thing the boys reverted back to their normal state." Problem solved. Would've required zero effort on his part. Just a single panel. No need to have fans like yourself present glorified fanfiction in his steed.

Everything else (i.e. Piccolo being shocked by Goten and Trunks power or him not doing anything to stop Goten and Trunks from attacking Buu) is immaterial. The fact of the matter is that the single time the author gives a direct comparison of their power levels, he puts Piccolo on top. We can concoct all of the theories and fanfiction in the world to try and explain otherwise, but at the end of the day, none of that is in the manga or anime. And so for me, the issue is straightforward.

Otherwise, you may as well try the same fanfiction exercise to explain how "Beerus was lying" when he said Goku couldn't beat Frieza in base. Perhaps bring up Vegeta's comments during the Buu arc and then assert Base Vegeta > Shen > Piccolo >= Android 17 > Android Saga Trunks > Frieza while you're at it.

By that logic, why didn't Buu simply use the flesh throughout the entire cavern to absorb Goku and Vegeta immediately upon realizing their presence like so:

http://www.dragonball-multiverse.com/en/pages/final/1008.jpg

Or is it also your position that Buu also randomly lost the ability to absorb people for some strange and mysterious reason? For that matter, why even panic about SSJ's Vegeta's threats when he is well capable of blitzing him either with an attack or the candy beam? Are we also to believe SSJ Vegeta > Super Buu in that moment? You've already established that "not stopping someone = being weaker than someone", so why not?

Kid Buu blew up the planet without resistance at a time Goku and Vegeta still believed they were stronger than him. Semi-Perfect Cell nearly destroyed the planet despite the presence of an astronomically more powerful SSJ2 Gohan and would've succeeded if not for Goku's intervention. Frieza destroyed the earth in one move despite the presence of massively more powerful SSJB Vegeta right in front of him. If all Goku has to do to win is hit the ground with a blast even Saiyan Saga Vegeta could muster up, he wins this fight easily.

Saying the kids are 50x stronger than Base Goku is glorified fanfic BS btw as it's implying without justification that Buu saga Base Goku = Base Goten and Trunks. Prove it. That's horsesh-t even by your own logic.

Lets see some proof for that. Even by your own logic, Base Goku > Base Vegeta > Shen >>> Piccolo > Base Goten. And the difference between shen and Base Vegeta would have to be substantial for Shen to think they needed to gang up on the likes of Pui Pui. NOW they're nigh-equal all of the sudden?!?!

One warp kamehameha would decimate these two brats simultaneously, never-mind a warp kiezen. And that's without any Taiyōken or After-image spam in conjunction. The boys lack of regen-hax, general competence and experience makes Goku's skillset enough to bridge any stipulated strength gap.

Originally posted by Galan007
Guess what? Tarble couldn't sense ki, and explicitly relied on scouters to read his opponents' PL. So unless you think he had a super-duper upgraded scouter that could inextricably read a PL of 120,000,000, then he would have NO way to even ballpark-compare A&K to final form Freeza... Even IF he knew about Freeza's other transformations. If you wanna go by the manga Tarble did have a upgraded scouter, because it was ssj2 Goku's power that broke his scouter.



Course who knows, Tarble could easily have been meaning Abo and Cado's fusion were > Freeza not them individually.

Eh, the exact same scene happened in the film. Goku starts powering up in base, blink-transforms to SSJ2, then Tarble's scouter 'beeps' a few times before exploding.

The scouter 'beeping' certainly doesn't mean it recorded anything at all... Just means it was freaking out at the sudden/rapid rise in power before it burst.

Scouters have been broken by much lower, so he's got better scouters than some people, to even be able to read a power level of even first form Freeza

Not saying his scouter wasn't upgraded to *some* extent. Just saying that it certainly wasn't implied to have 'read' the PL of SSJ2 Goku... At all.

First form Freeza's ki must have been readable by scouters. That's likely how he knew its PL was exactly 530,000.

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
Says the guy who is about to educate me with his own personal glorified fanfiction.

That's nice, but any suggestion from the Daizenshuu that Goten = Gohan contradicts the manga, as Gohan himself, although impressed by Goten's potential, is fretful that him and Trunks could surpass him if he doesn't train . . . after managing to avoid every punch Goten could throw at him. What's more, the Daizenshuu also says Gohan's power hadn't decreased, outright disputing statements made during the Dabura fight, so I'll stick with the manga if you don't mind. Perhaps you can "go back to kindergarten" and learn a thing or two about rocks in glass houses. Dead horse. If Toriyama wanted to make the point you're making, it would've been real easy. Just put Super Buu in Trunks' clothes or have Goku say something like "Good thing the boys reverted back to their normal state." Problem solved. Would've required zero effort on his part. Just a single panel. No need to have fans like yourself present glorified fanfiction in his steed.

Everything else (i.e. Piccolo being shocked by Goten and Trunks power or him not doing anything to stop Goten and Trunks from attacking Buu) is immaterial. The fact of the matter is that the single time the author gives a direct comparison of their power levels, he puts Piccolo on top. We can concoct all of the theories and fanfiction in the world to try and explain otherwise, but at the end of the day, none of that is in the manga or anime. And so for me, the issue is straightforward.

Otherwise, you may as well try the same fanfiction exercise to explain how "Beerus was lying" when he said Goku couldn't beat Frieza in base. Perhaps bring up Vegeta's comments during the Buu arc and then assert Base Vegeta > Shen > Piccolo >= Android 17 > Android Saga Trunks > Frieza while you're at it.

By that logic, why didn't Buu simply use the flesh throughout the entire cavern to absorb Goku and Vegeta immediately upon realizing their presence like so:

http://www.dragonball-multiverse.com/en/pages/final/1008.jpg

Or is it also your position that Buu also randomly lost the ability to absorb people for some strange and mysterious reason? For that matter, why even panic about SSJ's Vegeta's threats when he is well capable of blitzing him either with an attack or the candy beam? Are we also to believe SSJ Vegeta > Super Buu in that moment? You've already established that "not stopping someone = being weaker than someone", so why not?

Kid Buu blew up the planet without resistance at a time Goku and Vegeta still believed they were stronger than him. Semi-Perfect Cell nearly destroyed the planet despite the presence of an astronomically more powerful SSJ2 Gohan and would've succeeded if not for Goku's intervention. Frieza destroyed the earth in one move despite the presence of massively more powerful SSJB Vegeta right in front of him. If all Goku has to do to win is hit the ground with a blast even Saiyan Saga Vegeta could muster up, he wins this fight easily.

Saying the kids are 50x stronger than Base Goku is glorified fanfic BS btw as it's implying without justification that Buu saga Base Goku = Base Goten and Trunks. Prove it. That's horsesh-t even by your own logic.

Lets see some proof for that. Even by your own logic, Base Goku > Base Vegeta > Shen >>> Piccolo > Base Goten. And the difference between shen and Base Vegeta would have to be substantial for Shen to think they needed to gang up on the likes of Pui Pui. NOW they're nigh-equal all of the sudden?!?!

One warp kamehameha would decimate these two brats simultaneously, never-mind a warp kiezen. And that's without any Taiyōken or After-image spam in conjunction. The boys lack of regen-hax, general competence and experience makes Goku's skillset enough to bridge any stipulated strength gap.

> Accuses me of arguing with fanfic
> Directly quotes a fanfic to disprove my canon scans

Dude, anyone with a brain can see how idiotic you're being, so this whole argument has lost my interest.

1. I never quoted the Daizenshuu. IOW's, Goten is just as strong as Gohan, and Trunks is slightly stronger than that. Gohan remains superior ONLY because of SSJ2, which the boys don't have access to during the Buu saga.

2. I also never said that Base Vegeta > Shen. I said that SSJ Vegeta > Shen, which is obvious. Piccolo is stronger than noob SSJ's like Goku during the Frieza saga. He is NOT stronger than MSSJ's like Gohan, Goten, Trunks, etc. Stop putting words in my mouth, in a futile attempt to make your own argument seem less retarded.

3. It's a little different for Super Buu to fail at stopping Vegeta, when he was terrified by the premise of ceasing to exist entirely, than it is for Piccolo to fail to catch two SSJ children who were flying into a death trap that Piccolo could have saved them from, simply by grabbing them. If he was strong enough to stop them, that is.

4. And? Lol, it doesn't matter how weak Vegeta and Goku thought Kid Buu was. Kid Buu was much stronger than them, and Vegeta DID manage to stop his first planet buster. The giant one was too big and strong for them to stop, plain and simple.

5. Even if Goku in base form was 10X stronger than Goten and Trunks in base form, they'd still stomp him in SSJ1. I'm using base form as a measuring stick, considering the fact that all the base Saiyan's are weaker than Piccolo, and they're all stronger than him in SSJ1. They're close to the same level, meaning none of them are over 2X stronger than the others, baring extra forms. Same way SSJ2 Gohan effortlessly stomped Perfect Cell despite being less than twice as strong as him.

6. Again, the boys would absolutely trash base Goku, as SSJ1's. I have proven this multiple times, in multiple ways. To recap: a. Gohan is = Goten and Gohan was at least 1/2 as strong as Goku in base. SSJ1 is 50X base, meaning even if Goku was twice as strong as Gohan, Trunks as a SSJ1 would be more than 25X stronger than base Goku, b. SSJ1 Gohan lifted the Z-sword while Kibito and Shen could not. SSJ1 Gohan ~ SSJ1 Goten, therefor SSJ1 Goten > Shen >>> Piccolo, c. Piccolo himself was shocked by the strength of the boys multiple times, and was even unable to stop them from attacking Buu. If he was stronger than them, he would have flown up and grabbed them, and knocked them out, like Majin Vegeta did. That simple.

Go on, fabricate another argument for me that you can respond to. It's a very unique form of debate, and I have to hand it to you- I didn't think you could be as big of an idiot/troll as you're proving to be. Bravo.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
> Accuses me of arguing with fanfic

> Directly quotes a fanfic to disprove my canon scansIs that what you think I was trying to do? Disprove canon scans? If that's the case, I refer you back to your little adage from your previous post: Go back to kindergarten and learn how to read, before you develop the audacity to argue with me against facts.

There is zero evidence of Goten being as strong as Gohan without the Daizenshuu. Prove me wrong with some of those canon scans you think I'm trying to disprove.

Base Vegeta > Shen since Shen was freaking out about them taking Pui Pui on and that he believed Pui Pui was an opponent they all needed to worry about. Vegeta went on to beat said opponent with zero effort in his base form. Additionally, if you believe SSJ Goten/Trunks > Piccolo due to being shocked about their power, we could use the exact same logic here:

http://i9.mangareader.net/dragon-ball/450/dragon-ball-1951667.jpg


If Super Buu is terrified by the premise of ceasing to exist entirely, then your argument that "He would have simply made Fat Buu wrap around Vegeta and absorb him, moved Fat Buu and hid him somewhere else in his body, or he would have simply made Fat Buu attack him" is rendered moot. That too can be addressed with "He was too scared to act."

Similarly, perhaps Piccolo, having sensed Buu's overwhelming power, experienced similar fright and figured that jumping in to try and stop both boys might get himself killed as well. Either way, just because character A doesn't take immediate action to stop character B from doing something character A doesn't like does not mean that Character B > Character A in power. As you demonstrated so splendidly with Buu, there can be independent reasons for Character A's inaction.

Kid Buu didn't start exerting SSJ3+ levels of power until he started smacking Goku around. Doesn't matter though. The other examples work even better, especially Frieza vs SSJB Vegeta.

If he's 10x stronger, KKx5 is all he needs to be on par with them when they go SSJ. And KKx6 or higher is all he needs to curbstomp them both.

Even 2X strength is enough to minimize the strength gap and make Goku's hax techniques that much more deadly.We have no idea precisely how much stronger SSJ2 Gohan was compared to Cell and Gohan's unquantified rage factor makes any attempt at guesswork via official multipliers moot.

You've said absolutely nothing in regards to how they would deal with instant transmission combos, the solar flare, etc and the lame "lol blitz" argument is subverted just about every time these techniques get used in canon. The boys have neither the competence (see their fight with Android 18 where their stupidity costs them the fight when it shouldn't have if we're to believe your estimation of strength) nor the hax needed to compete with Goku's skillset, so they lose either way.