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Who wins?

Gohan, kek.

Didn't one of the writers said 17 > Gohan?

As of right now, I'd say 17.

Gohan easily.

Originally posted by Inedian
Gohan easily.

Gohan < Blue.

Gohan seems to have a very nasty habit of neutering himself in battle these days. It's very irritating that he STILL does this, given his training with Piccolo right before the ToP. srsly

#17 was trading blows with SSB Goku pretty damn well when they sparred -- neither seemed to gain the clear upperhand. He also has a very haxx force-field(it blocked SSB Goku's Kamehameha), along with infinite stamina(literally).

Gohan would win IF he cut loose, obviously. Barring that, I am leaning toward #17, tbh. /shrug

Originally posted by Inedian
Gohan easily.

Gohan was struggling a lot more with a mere SSJ Goku, while #17 was dominating.

If #17 can push a SSJ Blue, there's no basis at all for Gohan to beat anyone at this point "easily". Especially when he actually got weaker from lack of training, while #17 could have easily trained up to Golden Freeza level, for the same reasons (Like Freeza, he was already massively powerful without doing any training at all. If training brings Freeza to god tier on that logic, why not #17?)

Depending on the next episode of DB Super I might change my original answer

With every new episode, it looks like Gohan is slightly stronger than #17, but in a fight between the two, one with unlimited stamina might be the game changer in the long drawn out fight.

#17 = ssj3 level

Gohan = God Goku

17 isn't even base Goku (who was weakened) level. Goku was obviously holding back a lot of power against 17 during their first fight like I told a lot of people in the Anime section a while back (don't understand why you all debate like this... so different than what is presented in the comic book vs forum). Gohan destroys him, with ease imo. That's if you think Gohan is stronger than base Goku (weakened base Goku).

#17 vs. Goku (manga):
https://i.imgur.com/cLXjEz9.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/zFo2d6R.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/LqKT1fV.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/fjDazRS.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/YBZ8Mum.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/xuEPUXh.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/C34v6G7.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/xvdGp1R.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/pTkMC1Y.jpg

Imo, it's clear that #17 was far superior to base and SSJ2 Goku. He also did quite well against SSJ3 Goku -- neither seemed definitively superior to the other(in fact, Goku was clearly worried about the last blast #17 was charging.) I have absolutely no doubt that if the battle would've carried on longer, Goku would have ended up going SSG or SSB to end it... But that's neither here nor there.

Hopefully the manga also depicts Goku's fight with Gohan before the ToP, because the results of that bout are likely to end this discussion one way or the other.


Now if we're talking anime only, then BOTH did well against SSB Goku in their brief scuffles(heck, you could argue that #17 looked slightly better.) However, ToP Gohan is consistently at/around SSB-levels of power when he actually fights, and I'm hoping the manga keeps him that way. As much as I like the Androids, they logically shouldn't even be able to contend with Cell-era Gohan, imo... Let alone f*cking ToP-era Gohan.

ermm

So taking their anime showings at face value..

Can Android #17 survive melee attacks from an angry Gohan long enough to wear him out?

I'm seeing a scenerio where Gohan has the upper hand, hits him with everything he's got, and wastes it on a shield.

But that won't work if he can just knock his arms off in one attack, like he did Piccolo.

Again, that's if you think Goku is fighting seriously against someone he is trying to promote and I see no reason on him fighting to kill against someone he needs help from. It's like saying Goku was going all out against Chi Chi during their fight. Or against Gohan when they were fighting in the time chamber.

Gohan.

Originally posted by carver9
I see no reason on him fighting to kill against someone he needs help from.

so how many opponents has goku fought to kill, again?

Originally posted by carver9
Again, that's if you think Goku is fighting seriously against someone he is trying to promote and I see no reason on him fighting to kill against someone he needs help from. It's like saying Goku was going all out against Chi Chi during their fight. Or against Gohan when they were fighting in the time chamber. It's not just about Goku, he was portrayed as being blue tier in the recent episode.

Anime: 17
Manga: ??? (no showings from Gohan yet).

Originally posted by NewGuy01
so how many opponents has goku fought to kill, again?

He blew Cell in half not knowing the results. He killed Frieza. Killed Kid Buu. Do I need to keep going? He stood in one spot and asked Krillin to attack. This is completely different than trying to take out your opponent. Look at the Jiren and Hit fight.

Originally posted by carver9
He blew Cell in half not knowing the results. He killed Frieza. Killed Kid Buu. Do I need to keep going? He stood in one spot and asked Krillin to attack. This is completely different than trying to take out your opponent. Look at the Jiren and Hit fight. *There is context to most of these instances.

Regardless, killing his opponent(s) is unequivocally a last resort for Goku... Something he'll only do if there are no other options, and his friends/family/earth/universe are at stake.

Originally posted by Galan007
*There is context to most of these instances.

Regardless, I cannot recall an instance where Goku has gone into a fight with the premeditated intent of killing his opponent(s). He might come to that conclusion later on in the story/fight, but killing someone is NEVER the first option for him.

...Which is NewGuy's point, I'd imagine.

He did in DB when he destroyed Tambourine. He went into the fight with intent of killing him. Also against King Piccolo.

^ Check my edit.

Though the fact that you have to go all the way back to Tambourine and King Piccolo sort of proves the point.

Originally posted by Galan007
^ Check my edit.

Though the fact that you have to go all the way back to Tambourine and King Piccolo sort of proves the point.

Well, Goku really also wanted to kill Black (episode 61). There is no doubt he wanted to kill him. Actually, very similar to what happened against Tambourine. So angry and he went for a kill.

Again, context. By that point Goku already knew that Black/Zamasu HAD TO be destroyed... It was literally the ONLY way to stop them.

It's not like he had just met them for the first time, and went in for the kill right away, lol.

Originally posted by Galan007
Again, context. By that point Goku already knew that Black/Zamasu HAD TO be destroyed... It was literally the ONLY way to stop them.

It's not like he had just met them for the first time, and went in for the kill right away, lol.

Of course it depends on a context. And against major villains he went for a kill. From Tao Pai Pai to Black, almost always lol

Originally posted by Galan007
*There is context to most of these instances.

Regardless, killing his opponent(s) is unequivocally a last resort for Goku... Something he'll only do if there are no other options, and his friends/family/earth/universe are at stake.

Which means majority if not all of the time, he holds back due to his hero card. He doesn't go all out... this is plain and clear and thinking he went all out against Krillin and Android 17 when we know he holds back against some of the most evil villains ever isn't logical thinking.

Originally posted by carver9
Which means majority if not all of the time, he holds back due to his hero card. He doesn't go all out... this is plain and clear and thinking he went all out against Krillin and Android 17 when we know he holds back against some of the most evil villains ever isn't logical thinking.

When he holds back it's has nothing to do with his hero card. He holds back when he sees an opponent is not in his league or sparrings/friends like against 17 and Krillin etc... what has that do do with hero card with his friends.

He is a an ordinary good man in this department, of course he won't hurt his friends, and when needed he destroys his opponent, and if his friend is hurt by someone, he will struck you down in rage.

Goku never holds back when there is a serious fight, completely never and he goes all out against major villains he also went for a kill.

He is like any other fighter with normal/good hearth.

Context context and context... it always depends on a context.

And the fact he was excited to fight #17, and commented on his ridiculous strength, proves he wasn't holding back.

But Carver always has an excuse. When Roshi beat three strong characters, and ended by sending one out of the ring, he insisted he wasn't actually hurting him and only pushed him out.

I bet if we got character statements that Roshi was holding his own with a not holding back at all Vegeta blue, he'd find a way to make excuses.

He just can't accept that, just maybe, the definition of power levels have changed over the years, a now a skilled human can legitimately hold his own with a Super Saiyan.

Maybe Roshi could genuinely defeat Golden Freeza through skill alone now. Just like base Goku used skill to keep ahead of SSJ Caulifala.

Gohan can't win any fight, period. That's what makes him Gohan.

Originally posted by Inedian
When he holds back it's has nothing to do with his hero card. He holds back when he sees an opponent is not in his league or sparrings/friends like against 17 and Krillin etc... what has that do do with hero card with his friends.

He is a an ordinary good man in this department, of course he won't hurt his friends, and when needed he destroys his opponent, and if his friend is hurt by someone, he will struck you down in rage.

Goku never holds back when there is a serious fight, completely never and he goes all out against major villains he also went for a kill.

He is like any other fighter with normal/good hearth.

Context context and context... it always depends on a context.

Originally posted by Inedian
When he holds back it's has nothing to do with his hero card. He holds back when he sees an opponent is not in his league or sparrings/friends like against 17 and Krillin etc... what has that do do with hero card with his friends.

He is a an ordinary good man in this department, of course he won't hurt his friends, and when needed he destroys his opponent, and if his friend is hurt by someone, he will struck you down in rage.

Goku never holds back when there is a serious fight, completely never and he goes all out against major villains he also went for a kill.

He is like any other fighter with normal/good hearth.

Context context and context... it always depends on a context.

You basically said what I said... just disagreed with the hero card and basically said he is just a good guy. I don't disagree with this. All if know is, he didn't have the same mindset against 17 or Krillin vs what he had against Hit and Jiren. Do you agree?

Originally posted by carver9
You basically said what I said... just disagreed with the hero card and basically said he is just a good guy. I don't disagree with this. All if know is, he didn't have the same mindset against 17 or Krillin vs what he had against Hit and Jiren. Do you agree?

Nope.

Anyone else besides CDTM would like to comment on my last response?

Originally posted by carver9
Anyone else besides CDTM would like to comment on my last response?

Nope.

Originally posted by carver9
All if know is, he didn't have the same mindset against 17 or Krillin vs what he had against Hit and Jiren. Do you agree?

Of course he didn't. I agree.

Thanks buddy

Actually I think he had the same mindset against Hit, and Jiren, and 17. Because he just wanted to fight them, each fight was a game to him. And each fight pushed him further than he thought he was going to need. And all three fights excited him.

Originally posted by Inedian
Of course he didn't. I agree.

I SAID "nope".

17


I refuse to believe the writing is so shit that gohan is God level
From playing tag with piccolo for a half hour

I ****ing refuse

The manga has to clarify this horse shit

Originally posted by TheBadguy
17


I refuse to believe the writing is so shit that gohan is God level
From playing tag with piccolo for a half hour

I ****ing refuse

The manga has to clarify this horse shit


I've been saying how that's bullshit writing ever since I saw the episode. Reaching that level just by training with Piccolo for a few minutes, the fuq? He basically had to be retaught how to fight too, if you recall how pathetic he became during RoF and up to that point, but all it takes is training some with Piccolo again (no RoSaT, no Whis training, etc) for him to not only make himself strong again but surpass his previous limits?

I was actually looking forward to how Gohan would eventually be reintroduced to the realm of fighting, but the anime just rushed it, and now we kinda just have to accept that he can tag with Blue form Goku without any Whis/God training or anything. Gary stu.

I am curious how the manga will differ there.

DBSuper's been bullshit since the very beginning, to be fair...

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
DBSuper's been bullshit since the very beginning, to be fair...

How come when I say it, I'm a troll, but when you say it, not a word?

I don't mention a certain failure of a character from DC Comics.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
I don't mention a certain failure of a character from DC Comics.


...when have I ever mentioned Aquaman?

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime


I've been saying how that's bullshit writing ever since I saw the episode. Reaching that level just by training with Piccolo for a few minutes, the fuq? He basically had to be retaught how to fight too, if you recall how pathetic he became during RoF and up to that point, but all it takes is training some with Piccolo again (no RoSaT, no Whis training, etc) for him to not only make himself strong again but surpass his previous limits?

I was actually looking forward to how Gohan would eventually be reintroduced to the realm of fighting, but the anime just rushed it, and now we kinda just have to accept that he can tag with Blue form Goku without any Whis/God training or anything. Gary stu.

I am curious how the manga will differ there.

We don't know what type of training went on with Gohan and Piccolo. Remember, they have a room where time is almost at a halt.

Originally posted by carver9
We don't know what type of training went on with Gohan and Piccolo. Remember, they have a room where time is almost at a halt. That Vegeta used, and blew up.

Also they were training in the mountains, far away from the Lookout.

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
I am curious how the manga will differ there. Hopefully it will differ in the say way it did with SSJ2A Trunks & #17, and just have Gohan contend with SSJ3 Goku. I mean, even that should still be WAY beyond Gohan's weight class at this point, but it's a LOT better than believing he can hang with f*cking SSB after, like, a single day of training... ermm

Why is this even an argument? #17 was a joke back in the Cell saga, when compared to someone like MSSJ Goku or even Imperfect Cell.

He's clearly done some training or something, to the point where he is capable of forcing DBS Goku to resort to SSJ3, and still dominate him.

Can Gohan do that? Hell no, Gohan even during the ToP is hitting in the same league as Piccolo.

The showing of Base Goku > #17 from the anime only shows how much progress Goku has made since the beginning of the ToP. You could literally argue that Goku has gotten over 400X stronger since the ToP started, and it would make sense. Ignoring that context is crucial- because it would infer that base Goku > SSJ3 Goku, which is just plain stupid.

Base Goku current > SSJ3 Goku, when he recruited #17. Simple as that.

Regardless, #17 is clearly > Gohan. Gohan has been getting manhandled by people that even 4th form Frieza is one-shotting, and 4th form Frieza isn't even a challenge for base Goku.