BFR with no possibility of returning in a reasonable time is a loss
Opening + 2 posts
Posters are in full control of the characters
Opponents start at opposite corners of the ring on the ground.
You can leave the ring/fly/use environment.
Deadline for all the posts: next Friday.
Smurph Post 2
In one corner, Emma Frost with a clear and simple plan to crush her opponent.
In the other corner, Aquaman with empty posturing:
I'm guessing Martian is hoping that you're all going to just take his word on this match, and not open the scans, because the scans do not support his claims. His corner is standing on one big false equivalency.
The scans do not conclude that Aquaman and Emma are both 'decent telepaths'. Aquaman is a decent telepath with the odd high showing that places him near the high tier for telepaths. Emma, on the other hand, lives in the high tier. I'll go scan for scan on the evidence; Martian can't handwave it away and call this match a draw. Aquaman is straight up outgunned.
Before the feat war though, let's get some of the smaller contentions out of the way:
1. Martian has 'total control' of Aquaman... so what?
Issue: Martian claims that because he has 'total control' of Aquaman, he (the poster) will somehow be able to discern Emma Frost's illusions apart from reality, and give Aquaman the ability to completely ignore those illusions.
My interpretation of the rules is that we have 'total control' of our characters strategy and tactics for the purpose of our initial posts, and to generally avoid any arguments of CIS during the tournament. I don't believe that this extends to actively substituting our minds for the characters during the fight. If you take Martian's argument one step further, it would go "Emma uses telepathy on Aquaman, but since I am in total control of Aquaman, I see through any telepathic tricks and keep attacking".
I don't think that the rules are meant to give any character a blanket immunity to being fooled by their opponents whether its through telepathy, magic illusions, or any of the other tactics that are considered fair game in tournaments.
Bottom line: regardless of who is in control, Emma uses telepathic illusions to make them think that she has brought allies to the fight. If Martian is going to contend that this doesn't work, fine, but then we should see a scan of Aquaman seeing through illusions or something, rather than arguing for a loophole in the rules.
2. Emma can fight with telepathy and h2h, she doesn't need to choose
Issue: Martian's arguing that Emma chooses to fight telepathically or physically, and that once she makes that choice, she's committed to it, because Aquaman is too fast for Emma to switch back and forth between diamond form and flesh.
And sure, Aquaman is fast on paper, although I haven't seen any scans of actual blitzing, just some finesse with the hook, a statement about being able to jump really fast, and surprising some no-name guards.
None of that is enough though, because Emma has on panel scans of instantly transforming from diamond to skin and back. From my first post:
Martian could argue that Emma had telepathic warning to pull off that feat... but what stops her from having telepathic warning here? I don't think that we've seen a single feat of Aquaman keeping people out of his mind, and Emma has casually pierced telepathic shields put in place by Xavier (see: casually stopping Wolverine in place). She's also confident that she could shut down the Avengers in a matter of seconds: https://postimg.org/image/tnpmypwgz/
...so she shouldn't have any problem duplicating the exact same instant change to diamond form in this fight.
That puts Martian in a really tough spot, because there's basically nothing that he can do to Emma in diamond form. It's important to emphasize that Emma doesn't turn into regular diamond, but "organic diamond", which the comics use to compare her form to Colossus' "organic steel", which means that she can tank all sorts of attacks that regular diamonds couldn't, such as a point blank repulsor barrage from Tony Stark: https://postimg.org/image/5jyvau6er/
...and, like Colossus, Emma actually has enhanced speed in her diamond form. If she's fast enough to tag Tony, she can hit Aquaman if she needs to. And note the sound effect: she dented his armor, which means she could f*ck Aquaman up with a well placed punch.
Other feats in her diamond form:
Piercing durability: Daken's claws chip on her diamond form, so Aquaman's hook isn't going to scratch it.
Blunt force: Emma tanks a full on sucker punch from Colossus, so Aquaman isn't going to damage her with a punch. If he sends her flying away, she'll just switch back to telepathy and continue the assault.
and she's also taken repeated strikes from WWH without sustaining any damage: https://imgur.com/a/JCj7n
Strength: she one-shots Daken, whose healing factor is on part with Wolverine's
Bottom line, if telepathy fails, Emma can actually just outlast Aquaman in a h2h fight. She has far superior strength and durability.
OK, now for telepathy:
Feat War: Emma's telepathy vs Aquaman's
Martian claims that Aquaman could win in a purely telepathic contest. He posted four feats to back this up:
First thing to note: feats 3 and 4 are pretty ambiguous because they specifically relate to Aquaman's control over sea life (Kordax, the dude Aquaman is fighting, is Aquaman's Atlantean ancestor). Aquaman's 'devolving' of King Shark is further related to Aquaman's control over evolutions from the sea... I don't really know what to say about this feat, but I wouldn't put a lot of weight on either of those showings, so I'll focus on feats 1 and 2.
Feat 1 shows a sort of telepathic EMP that takes place during the Aquaman/Kordax fight. Martian claims it shows Aquaman 'bringing the earth to its knees', but the only beings that the pulse effects are sea life. Notice that bubbles surround all the humanoids in the pictures... because they're Atlanteans. This isn't a global feat. Second issue, it's clearly a shared feat: ""Their minds lock, the battle truly joined..." ". Aquaman is NOT "bringing the earth to its knees" at all, or under his own power.
Compare that with Emma Frost casually broadcasting Cyclops' message to all mutants in the world: https://imgur.com/a/4PoqG. Emma is a true global telepath, under her own power.
Feat 2 from Martian is probably Aquaman's best tp feat, when he gives the White Martian a seizure. There's a bit of context: he does it when the martian is mocking and underestimating him, and the attack is a sucker punch. But, it's a good feat.
Let's compare that with Emma:
Emma sets up a trap and sucker punches Xavier; "I own you."
Easily enters Rachel Grey's mind without her consent
Cuts through young Nate Grey's illusions, makes him feel pure pain
Forces Carol Danvers to experience a series of vivid illusions without her consent. I don't have the scans right now, but she also essentially does this tenfold to Kitty Pryde is Whedon's Astonishing run.
Fries Storm's brain, note that she quickly switches between diamond to flesh and back to diamond here.
and as far as psychic surgery goes, Emma probably has more feats in that area than any other telepath. Here's one, where she blocks particular neurotransmitters in Bishop's brain. She's not going to be taken by surprise by an attack on her brain.
These, combined with the psychic duels between herself and psis of a higher caliber than Aquaman (Rachel Grey, Exodus and others -- see my first post), show that Aquaman just isn't in the same league as Emma. What counts as an impressive feat for him is run-of-the-mill for her.
We have been given no reason to believe that Aquaman is going to see through Emma's illusions. In all likelihood, even if it's just momentary, he will be distracted by illusions of other attacks, and Emma will use that moment to sucker punch him and fry his brain.
Even if they end up locked in a psychic duel, Emma has a much more established history of high skill in psychic duels, even against herald-level psychics (Nate Grey, Rachel Summers, Xavier, Exodus...). Martian can't show the same for Aquaman. If this becomes a psychic battle, Emma will restrict Aquaman to just using his psychic powers (see the Exodus fight, first post), and she will then dominate him.
Finally, if the fight becomes h2h, Emma will just turn diamond until she's far enough away again to go back to telepathy. He just can't hurt her in her diamond form, and her transformation is instant.
Good match to both of you, I'm going to do a quick review in the discussion and see where it leads me.
I believe that Smurph made clear that illusions are fair game as far as the rules go and sadly he didn't have the time to provide a scan that could counteract the argument of them not working on telepaths. I also think that the Exodus scan is pretty important for the balance of his debate, effectively limiting Aquaman's physical advantages or at least hindering them to a reactable level. Martian Mind in the other hand insisted that he had a sizeable speed advantage and fast-kills on his side. Then he introduced his jumping capabilities to establish a forward momentum that Emma wouldn't be able to counteract without going to her diamond form. If he manages to jump or shoot Emma by reacting to her transformation to flesh form, Aquaman reaches some level of inevitability. The fact that Smurph claimed he would start the battle by going to diamond form suggests this will eventually happen.
The plan of duking it out in diamond form to make some distance isn't going to work in my opinion. Eventually some lucky punches could throw Aquaman away to a distance, but he's fast enough to close the distance pretty fast and quick enough to dodge. More often than not I see him bracing, taking the hits and slamming Emma down. So the plan becomes "Stalling for an opening to go flesh form, then stalling with illusions to get an opening for a psychic assault", both things in succession against an opponent with superior speed that might detect the fact you are trying to influence them with illusions just as you try to do so.
I think that Smurph lacking that last post pretty much made this Martian Mind's battle to lose. The fact that Emma needs to switch between forms to effectively counteract Aquaman's attacks was also difficult to overcome.
My vote goes to Martian Mind
Maybe I just hate psychics.
Martian Mind vs Smurph
I have to admit, I HATED looking at this one. It was the hardest time I've had leaving my own preconceptions at the door, and in all honesty, there were times when I looked at things both people posted and thought to myself "are they lying to win, or do they genuinely think this?" about some of the points they made. I'm going to assume it's the former because hey, you're trying to win, and I can't blame anyone for that. On to the match itself:
I hate you both. Pricks, the both of you. There was a point at which I thought "nope, can't pick one", but I was asked to pick a winner, so here I am. Emma/Smurph for the win, purely on the basis of more comprehensive telepathy feats shown in the posts. It's by a bloody hair, but it's there. A telepathy battle just seemed like it'll have more weight to it in this matchup the way it's been presented, and in that, I'd go with Emma, though by a really small margin.
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