Much like my impending victory, I’ll make this first post swift.
Two combatants stand before you. One is blonde, leggy, and incredibly appealing to look at. The other is Emma Frost, a somewhat gifted telepath with a fetish for one-eyed men. Yes, she can turn into diamond to increase her strength and durability, but unfortunately for her, this also robs her of her most useful asset, the aforementioned telepathy.
So, this leaves her with two options. Fight me as a squishy human telepath, or as a relatively low-tier superhuman. Neither of those options end well.
For you see, while I readily admit that a purely telepathic battle between Emma and Arthur is close, it isn’t so close as to restrict all other movement, and let’s be honest, against a human Emma, all Aquaman needs is a single punch...
...which, as the scan shows, I could claim from a distance. Hell, I might just put the hook straight through Emma’s head. I mean, there’s virtually no chance she can out-react me, considering my vastly superior speed.
...and fast enough that she’ll never make contact.
Now, yes, Smurph could try and shake expectations, by going diamond form and chancing H2H, but that...wouldn’t be advisable. Again, my speed is simply too much for him to match, as is my strength. Emma isn’t a natural brawler, and can (and has) been dealt with rather easily. https://imgur.com/a/JCj7n
Now, I’d never claim Aquaman as physical peer to WWH, but considering the gap in our respective speed and strength, that feat would not be particularly difficult to replicate.
So, I am clearly unbeatable in a physical contest here. That much is indisputable, which leaves us only with the psychic. Fortunately, Arthur is every bit Emma’s equal, if not her superior.
Raw power? This guy has brought the entire earth to its knees.
Yeah, I think that should cover it. I mean, yes, there’s enough here to prove that I would win a purely telepathic contest, yet the main point remains that I don’t need to. This entire match is Smurph’s pathetic glass cannon against my bigger, more powerful, adamantium cannon. One shot is all I need to end this, whereas Smurph’s only chance of victory lies in a telepathic success...something he cannot guarantee. I’m too fast, too strong, too psychically powerful, and in the end, simply just too good.
So Aquaman, who is entirely unfamiliar with what Emma can do, will be convinced that Emma has psychically summoned her teammates, and will become preoccupied with attacking them and avoiding their attacks.
This will give Emma the easy opening to crush Aquaman psychically.
If judges don’t believe that Aquaman gets fooled by the illusion, Emma is still going to make it a psychic battle. Importantly, Emma has multiple showings of going up against psychic foes and forcing them to focus solely on telepathy at the expense of their other powers: https://imgur.com/a/hCu0r
Exodus says ”A plausible tactic, Emma Frost. To engage me in telepathic combat so that I can’t deploy my other powers”.
Emma has pulled this same trick against Sinister, and has gone head to head with the likes of Xavier, Jean, and Rachel Grey. All of these telepaths are markedly above Aquaman in power and telepathic skill. If Aquaman is fooled by the illusions, Emma will crush his mind.
Now, I’m not actually too fussed about any of this, as your ignorance has led you right into my sights. Yes, Aquaman has no idea that Emma can cast illusions. *I*, however, do. And as per the rules of the tournament…
So, since *I* am in control, your illusions will count for naught. They will be completely ignored, which means the moment you turn back into flesh, as you’ve *specified* you will do, guess what’s going straight through your skull?
Hard to use telepathy with a hook through the brain.
Now, let’s be honest, there isn’t much more for me to address, beyond pointless scans of telepathy. Why pointless, you ask? Because:
A) He’ll never get the chance to use it. His opening tactic was idiotic, and has left him completely vulnerable to a game-ending assault.
B) None of it actually proves he can win. All he’s done is say he’s a decent telepath, which I have also proven about myself. Even if he can make it a telepathic stand-off, there’s no guarantees that he can hold me completely still, and all I need is a single hit. I mean, consider the speed difference here. Aquaman can perform a vertical leap that covers 10,000 vertical feet per second.
If I fire my hook and lunge, Smurph will literally fail to compose a single thought before I’m upon him. A collision between the two of us would literally vaporize Emma. And even if it somehow didn’t, it would still leave me well within arm’s reach, where I can effortlessly tear her apart, again, before she can form a thought.
His opening tactic is ridiculous, failing to account for the rules of the tournament itself, and leaving him wide open to an effortless kill-shot. I am fast enough to close the gap between us before he can compose another thought, which considering all he has is telepathy, leaves him virtually helpless. On top of that, even if he can initiate a telepathic assault, I’ll already be in motion when he does so. At near to 10,000 feet per second. My momentum alone would cause a fatal collision.
And on top of all that, is the fact that he is in no way guaranteed to defeat me even if it is a telepathic fight. Aquaman has breached telepathic defenses that J’onn couldn’t, for god’s sake.
Not to mention the martian seizure he induced, which was a combined psychic and physiological attack. Emma has no defense against it. Even the scan of telepathic combat Smurph provided made it abundantly clear that without the aid of another, a temporary stalemate was all Emma could achieve, with her impending death to a *superior* foe all but certain. If this isn’t the exact same situation, bar her outside help, then what is it?
It could not be more clear that Emma, and Smurph, are completely outmatched. They are a fragile leaf, quaking before the hurricane about to descend. To vote for them would be lunacy. A single blow is all I need, and I am capable of getting it in so many, many ways. Smurph’s only prayer is a moderate delay...which will win him nothing in the end.
In one corner, Emma Frost with a clear and simple plan to crush her opponent.
In the other corner, Aquaman with empty posturing:
I'm guessing Martian is hoping that you're all going to just take his word on this match, and not open the scans, because the scans do not support his claims. His corner is standing on one big false equivalency.
The scans do not conclude that Aquaman and Emma are both 'decent telepaths'. Aquaman is a decent telepath with the odd high showing that places him near the high tier for telepaths. Emma, on the other hand, lives in the high tier. I'll go scan for scan on the evidence; Martian can't handwave it away and call this match a draw. Aquaman is straight up outgunned.
Before the feat war though, let's get some of the smaller contentions out of the way:
1. Martian has 'total control' of Aquaman... so what?
Issue: Martian claims that because he has 'total control' of Aquaman, he (the poster) will somehow be able to discern Emma Frost's illusions apart from reality, and give Aquaman the ability to completely ignore those illusions.
My interpretation of the rules is that we have 'total control' of our characters strategy and tactics for the purpose of our initial posts, and to generally avoid any arguments of CIS during the tournament. I don't believe that this extends to actively substituting our minds for the characters during the fight. If you take Martian's argument one step further, it would go "Emma uses telepathy on Aquaman, but since I am in total control of Aquaman, I see through any telepathic tricks and keep attacking".
I don't think that the rules are meant to give any character a blanket immunity to being fooled by their opponents whether its through telepathy, magic illusions, or any of the other tactics that are considered fair game in tournaments.
Bottom line: regardless of who is in control, Emma uses telepathic illusions to make them think that she has brought allies to the fight. If Martian is going to contend that this doesn't work, fine, but then we should see a scan of Aquaman seeing through illusions or something, rather than arguing for a loophole in the rules.
2. Emma can fight with telepathy and h2h, she doesn't need to choose
Issue: Martian's arguing that Emma chooses to fight telepathically or physically, and that once she makes that choice, she's committed to it, because Aquaman is too fast for Emma to switch back and forth between diamond form and flesh.
And sure, Aquaman is fast on paper, although I haven't seen any scans of actual blitzing, just some finesse with the hook, a statement about being able to jump really fast, and surprising some no-name guards.
None of that is enough though, because Emma has on panel scans of instantly transforming from diamond to skin and back. From my first post:
Martian could argue that Emma had telepathic warning to pull off that feat... but what stops her from having telepathic warning here? I don't think that we've seen a single feat of Aquaman keeping people out of his mind, and Emma has casually pierced telepathic shields put in place by Xavier (see: casually stopping Wolverine in place). She's also confident that she could shut down the Avengers in a matter of seconds: https://postimg.org/image/tnpmypwgz/
...so she shouldn't have any problem duplicating the exact same instant change to diamond form in this fight.
That puts Martian in a really tough spot, because there's basically nothing that he can do to Emma in diamond form. It's important to emphasize that Emma doesn't turn into regular diamond, but "organic diamond", which the comics use to compare her form to Colossus' "organic steel", which means that she can tank all sorts of attacks that regular diamonds couldn't, such as a point blank repulsor barrage from Tony Stark: https://postimg.org/image/5jyvau6er/
...and, like Colossus, Emma actually has enhanced speed in her diamond form. If she's fast enough to tag Tony, she can hit Aquaman if she needs to. And note the sound effect: she dented his armor, which means she could f*ck Aquaman up with a well placed punch.
Bottom line, if telepathy fails, Emma can actually just outlast Aquaman in a h2h fight. She has far superior strength and durability.
OK, now for telepathy:
Feat War: Emma's telepathy vs Aquaman's
Martian claims that Aquaman could win in a purely telepathic contest. He posted four feats to back this up:
First thing to note: feats 3 and 4 are pretty ambiguous because they specifically relate to Aquaman's control over sea life (Kordax, the dude Aquaman is fighting, is Aquaman's Atlantean ancestor). Aquaman's 'devolving' of King Shark is further related to Aquaman's control over evolutions from the sea... I don't really know what to say about this feat, but I wouldn't put a lot of weight on either of those showings, so I'll focus on feats 1 and 2.
Feat 1 shows a sort of telepathic EMP that takes place during the Aquaman/Kordax fight. Martian claims it shows Aquaman 'bringing the earth to its knees', but the only beings that the pulse effects are sea life. Notice that bubbles surround all the humanoids in the pictures... because they're Atlanteans. This isn't a global feat. Second issue, it's clearly a shared feat: ""Their minds lock, the battle truly joined..." [and the EMP happens]". Aquaman is NOT "bringing the earth to its knees" at all, or under his own power.
Compare that with Emma Frost casually broadcasting Cyclops' message to all mutants in the world: https://imgur.com/a/4PoqG. Emma is a true global telepath, under her own power.
Feat 2 from Martian is probably Aquaman's best tp feat, when he gives the White Martian a seizure. There's a bit of context: he does it when the martian is mocking and underestimating him, and the attack is a sucker punch. But, it's a good feat.
Fries Storm's brain, note that she quickly switches between diamond to flesh and back to diamond here.
and as far as psychic surgery goes, Emma probably has more feats in that area than any other telepath. Here's one, where she blocks particular neurotransmitters in Bishop's brain. She's not going to be taken by surprise by an attack on her brain.
These, combined with the psychic duels between herself and psis of a higher caliber than Aquaman (Rachel Grey, Exodus and others -- see my first post), show that Aquaman just isn't in the same league as Emma. What counts as an impressive feat for him is run-of-the-mill for her.
We have been given no reason to believe that Aquaman is going to see through Emma's illusions. In all likelihood, even if it's just momentary, he will be distracted by illusions of other attacks, and Emma will use that moment to sucker punch him and fry his brain.
Even if they end up locked in a psychic duel, Emma has a much more established history of high skill in psychic duels, even against herald-level psychics (Nate Grey, Rachel Summers, Xavier, Exodus...). Martian can't show the same for Aquaman. If this becomes a psychic battle, Emma will restrict Aquaman to just using his psychic powers (see the Exodus fight, first post), and she will then dominate him.
Finally, if the fight becomes h2h, Emma will just turn diamond until she's far enough away again to go back to telepathy. He just can't hurt her in her diamond form, and her transformation is instant.
Here is my final post.
Alright ladies and gentleman, here we are, the final stretch. Now, in light of recent events, I am forced to concede one point. While Smurph may be an incompetent debater, and inevitably destined to lose this match, he is ultimately, a gentleman. Saying that he was willing to leave things at two posts each was a class act, and I feel it deserved acknowledgement.
Now let’s destroy this Canadian f*ck.
Well, you would (wrongly) interpret that way, wouldn’t you? As this paltry strategy remains the closest thing you have to an offensive assault (though, an admittedly worthless one).
Now, let’s assume this strategy is somehow valid, and that Aquaman’s knowledge of Emma’s abilities, and the rules of this tournament, which exclusively preclude outside helps, is somehow irrelevant. It still does Smurph no good. Indeed, it plays into my hands.
I am still muchfaster than Smurph, despite his weak protestations. Moreover, my intial assault is a match-ending headshot, which will land well before Emma can utter syllable, or form a coherent thought. Remember, I am much faster, and precise enough with my hook that I can steal a Lantern’s ring right off his finger. The idea that I can’t kill him right off the bat is as ridiculous as the assumption that illusions will hinder or affect me. After all, Emma’s illusions are merely an extension of her telepathy, and if you’re paying attention, you’ll notice that at NO stage in Smurph’s scan does Emma successfully cast an illusion against a fellow telepath. Why, you ask? Because she is UNABLE to.
Now we reach the true depths of Smurph’s despair. Note, he claims that Emma has enhanced speed, yet provides not a single scan to support this...because she doesn’t. I, however, do, as my several scans have proven, despite Smurph’s pathetic attempt to underplay them.
The most telling part of this exchange is that Smurph has already had to change tacts. At first, he tried to say that his telepathy would be enough, now he’s trying to say he can that Emma Frost…Emma Frost, could take Aquaman in H2H, based off a sound effect. Desperate much? I mean, I’ve already shown my strategy for taking her down in diamond form, and Smurph, as with all my arguments, has offered no plausible counter.
For Aquaman, this is easy to replicate, especially since all Smurph has shown is that Emma is extremely easy to land a hit on.
….Now, see, this is hard to respond to. Not because it’s clever or beneficial to his cause, but simply due to the sheer ignorance.
Firstly, Smurph tries to claim that Aquaman’s battle with Kordax isn’t global, because it only affected all ocean life. All ocean life. As in, you know, that thing which comprises over 70% of the earth? Far more than every bit of land combined? More food for though: There are roughly 7 billion humans currently alive. Do you know how creatures inhabit the sea? Let me tell you. Over 2.2 million species.Not individual creatures. Species. And Aquaman crippled all of them. Now, considering that over 100 million sharks are killed each year, and they’re considered endangered, let’s be conservative and say that each species has 100 million single creatures. That’s 2,2,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00
0,000,000 minds. Let that sink in. Even if Aquaman only performed 50% of that feat, god, even if he only performed 10%, it’s a feat beyond anything Emma could ever dream of achieving.
Now combine that with his other displays. White Martians are literally millions of years old, with more experience in telepathic combat than any opponent Smurph has shown. Them being cokcy in no way undermines the feat. That’s a weak attempt at misdirection. Aquaman’s psychic attacks are simply so devastating that not even one of the universe’s most capable telepathic races are capable of repulsing him. God, a creature that has existed for eons, with a mind so strong that it could haunt it’s own corpse, was helpless before Aquaman’s telepathy.
…now, Smurph might try to argue that this was a sea-dwelling creature, yet as the White Martian scan proves, it doesn’t matter. His telepathy works on anything. Even the conclave of twelve, a powerful group of mystic’s working in unison, were repelled by his abilities.
So, as you can see, a telepathic battle between us is not advisable on Smurph’s behalf, which really doesn’t leave him with many options. Indeed, it leaves him with none. His illusions will not work on a fellow telepath, he is far too slow to touch me if he engages diamond form, and even if this somehow became a telepathic battle, I am still his superior. How could there be any other conclusion than my complete, decisive victory?
The simple answer? There couldn’t be. This battle was mine from the moment it began. I knew it, the judges knew it, and now, Smurph certainly knows it.
Smurph vs Martian
Emma and Aquaman, not a fight I was too invested in but it turned out interesting enough. Both debaters stuck to their guns and had a fairly specific strategy that they followed.
Smurph immediately went for a defensive play opting to change into diamond form before unleashing his telepathy. He has the showings that put Emma at the tippy top of the Marvel telepathic hierarchy and a few showings to support a claim that she’s invulnerable, but more important he has several feat s that showcase Emma’s ability to quickly switch to and fro her diamond form. This is important because without those specific feats his strategy would most likely fall apart. The illusion is not something that I felt would be particularly effective even if it did work and overall I think it hurts his case.
Martian is the complete opposite. He has Arthur go straight for the jugular and attempt a blitz right off the bat. Aquaman has a few speed feats but not many and I honestly think he did a better job of repping Arthur’s telepathy than he did showing how fast he was. He convinced me that Emma’s illusion would fall on blind eyes and be more or less useless. Regardless of whether the illusion worked or not Arthur would still go straight for Emma.
So let me briefly summarize an immensely close call.
My vote goes to Smurph, though just barely. He didn’t convince me that the illusion would be effective but he did a good job of showing how well Emma handles other telepaths. Arthur has the power to challenge her but not the skill. Arguments like the scope of Arthur’s telepathy fell short when compared to showings like Emma vs Xavier and Exodus.
Good match to both of you, I'm going to do a quick review in the discussion and see where it leads me.
I believe that Smurph made clear that illusions are fair game as far as the rules go and sadly he didn't have the time to provide a scan that could counteract the argument of them not working on telepaths. I also think that the Exodus scan is pretty important for the balance of his debate, effectively limiting Aquaman's physical advantages or at least hindering them to a reactable level. Martian Mind in the other hand insisted that he had a sizeable speed advantage and fast-kills on his side. Then he introduced his jumping capabilities to establish a forward momentum that Emma wouldn't be able to counteract without going to her diamond form. If he manages to jump or shoot Emma by reacting to her transformation to flesh form, Aquaman reaches some level of inevitability. The fact that Smurph claimed he would start the battle by going to diamond form suggests this will eventually happen.
The plan of duking it out in diamond form to make some distance isn't going to work in my opinion. Eventually some lucky punches could throw Aquaman away to a distance, but he's fast enough to close the distance pretty fast and quick enough to dodge. More often than not I see him bracing, taking the hits and slamming Emma down. So the plan becomes "Stalling for an opening to go flesh form, then stalling with illusions to get an opening for a psychic assault", both things in succession against an opponent with superior speed that might detect the fact you are trying to influence them with illusions just as you try to do so.
I think that Smurph lacking that last post pretty much made this Martian Mind's battle to lose. The fact that Emma needs to switch between forms to effectively counteract Aquaman's attacks was also difficult to overcome.
I have to admit, I HATED looking at this one. It was the hardest time I've had leaving my own preconceptions at the door, and in all honesty, there were times when I looked at things both people posted and thought to myself "are they lying to win, or do they genuinely think this?" about some of the points they made. I'm going to assume it's the former because hey, you're trying to win, and I can't blame anyone for that. On to the match itself:
I hate you both. Pricks, the both of you. There was a point at which I thought "nope, can't pick one", but I was asked to pick a winner, so here I am. Emma/Smurph for the win, purely on the basis of more comprehensive telepathy feats shown in the posts. It's by a bloody hair, but it's there. A telepathy battle just seemed like it'll have more weight to it in this matchup the way it's been presented, and in that, I'd go with Emma, though by a really small margin.