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How hasn't this been done yet?

The Last Jedi versions (with a serious Luke), Luke starts where Rey was in the chamber, no guards.

1. Force
2. All-out

(Note: I know that we didn't get much info on the power levels of either character, but I think it's still fun to speculate - so "we don't know" isn't the ideal answer, IMHO)

Snoke. He's by far the most badass force user even seen.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Snoke. He's by far the most badass force user even seen.

Honestly, I have no idea. He telekinetically toys with Rey but that doesn't mean anything conclusive because we have no idea whether Luke could've done the same.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Honestly, I have no idea. He telekinetically toys with Rey but that doesn't mean anything conclusive because we have no idea whether Luke could've done the same. We see her and Luke go back and forth skill wise. Luke gains the upper hand until she calls for the lightsaber. She then puts him on his ass. Snoke disarmed her at will. He positioned her wherever he wanted whenever he wanted. He did this to Kylo's equal in the force whose Rae strength scared Luke.

Considering his dialogue, Snoke appears to be sub-Vader. Luke wins this.

Originally posted by quanchi112
We see her and Luke go back and forth skill wise. Luke gains the upper hand until she calls for the lightsaber. She then puts him on his ass. Snoke disarmed her at will. He positioned her wherever he wanted whenever he wanted. He did this to Kylo's equal in the force whose Rae strength scared Luke.

Luke was an emotional wreck who had cut himself off from the Force and only fighting to defend himself, and he still disarmed Rey pretty easily. I somehow doubt that Luke didn't TK her because her Force defenses were too strong and not for the 1003 other reasons why he wouldn't do that in that context.

Rey's power "scared" Luke because he feared her turning - if he actually was afraid of her beating him, he would've been scared of Kylo too (or Palpatine, for that matter). Furthermore, the fact that he didn't mention Palpatine, Vader or Snoke in the list of instances he felt that level of raw power suggests that he was referring to potential and not practical power.

Eeeeh, assuming Luke underwent a similar rate of growth as he did in the OT (which is a logical assumption), and the only reason he's as weak as he was in TLJ is because of cutting himself off from the Force, I'd probably go with Luke.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Luke was an emotional wreck who had cut himself off from the Force and only fighting to defend himself, and he still disarmed Rey pretty easily. I somehow doubt that Luke didn't TK her because her Force defenses were too strong and not for the 1003 other reasons why he wouldn't do that in that context.

Rey's power "scared" Luke because he feared her turning - if he actually was afraid of her beating him, he would've been scared of Kylo too (or Palpatine, for that matter). Furthermore, the fact that he didn't mention Palpatine, Vader or Snoke in the list of instances he felt that level of raw power suggests that he was referring to potential and not practical power. He used tk to protect himself from falling so why not use it to disarm her. He jousted with her. So he was defending himself and he didn't have to kill her to do so.

Well Kylo wasn't able to do so as they were force equals. You're right he was afraid she'd turn due to how powerful she was. He's only felt that raw strength twice before and it makes sense since the force equalized her force abilities to contend with the darkness rising in Kylo.



We see Ben with less training still effectively use tk on Luke to defend himself. Vader was of course more skilled than Rey he lacked her raw force power. Snoke in a direct use of force power humiliated her to the likes of which we have never seen someone with that level of raw power just moved at the whims of Snoke.

Disney went bigger in every single way as I predicted.

Originally posted by ares834
Considering his dialogue, Snoke appears to be sub-Vader. Luke wins this. Your brain seems to be disabled at this point. What from his dialogue even suggests this nonsense. Ares you aren't to be taken seriously. You're a fanboy.

Originally posted by quanchi112
He used tk to protect himself from falling so why not use it to disarm her.

Because he was ashamed of himself and very clearly not fighting at his best? He had cut himself off from the Force!

Put it this way: do you really think Luke fought Rey the same way he would've fought had Snoke been in front of him? If the answer is "no", then why does his performance against Rey under those emotional circumstances matter?

Edit laptop dying:

I'm on my phone so this is gonna be messy -



I think this is akin to a movie where a guilty guy is just defending himself not fighting back when his much smaller spouse is hitting him - it doesn't imply his inability to restrain her, it's surrounded by a lot of context.

Put it this way: Han Solo or Leia would prob have Luke on his ass were they in Rey's place.



Well the Kylo vs Luke "fight" in the flashback is even less an indication of fighting ability than what we saw.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Your brain seems to be disabled at this point. What from his dialogue even suggests this nonsense. Ares you aren't to be taken seriously. You're a fanboy.

Shhh. The grown ups are talking.

Originally posted by ares834
Shhh. The grown ups are talking. You misunderstanding the dialogue to have some sort of fanboyish interpretation only a retard would buy. Go find a Vader retarded fanboy and hold his hand while singing praises to Vader.

I would honestly take Snoke, here.

YES. YOU ARE BACK

Originally posted by quanchi112
You misunderstanding the dialogue to have some sort of fanboyish interpretation only a retard would buy. Go find a Vader retarded fanboy and hold his hand while singing praises to Vader.

mhmm

I would but unfortunately Snoke was killed. Poor thing. He even wore a ring from Vader's castle to showcase his love for Vader.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Because he was ashamed of himself and very clearly not fighting at his best? He had cut himself off from the Force!

Put it this way: do you really think Luke fought Rey the same way he would've fought had Snoke been in front of him? If the answer is "no", then why does his performance against Rey under those emotional circumstances matter?

Edit laptop dying: He used the force in the same scene. No, but Snoke wouldn't fight Luke with the same mockery he toyed with Rey. He looked at her as a joke without having to even exert himself to disarm her at will. She wasn't a joke to Luke per his words and actions. Actions matter. Luke has this shameful negative perspective that we can't separate his mindset from the character.

Based off what we see from the characters Snoke would destroy Luke.

Originally posted by ares834
mhmm

I would but unfortunately Snoke was killed. Poor thing. He even wore a ring from Vader's castle to showcase his love for Vader. So was Luke. Poor suicidal Jedi. He liked the dedication Vader had which is what he wanted from Kylo. Once Kylo was no longer spiritually weakened and he accomplished his objective his faith was restored in him. Vader pre Luke and the emperor had firm resolve. Snoke also mocked Hux until he explained how they still had the resistance by a string. Snoke was going to mock those who failed him. Snoke also said those things to Kylo to manipulate him into regaining his resolve and accomplishing his mission of bringing Rey before him.

Ps. Snoke is the most powerful force user ever seen on film. Not Palpatine, not Yoda, and not Luke. Especially not Vader.

Originally posted by quanchi112
He used the force in the same scene. No, but Snoke wouldn't fight Luke with the same mockery he toyed with Rey. He looked at her as a joke without having to even exert himself to disarm her at will. She wasn't a joke to Luke per his words and actions. Actions matter. Luke has this shameful negative perspective that we can't separate his mindset from the character.

Based off what we see from the characters Snoke would destroy Luke.

I said this in my edited post but if Han or Leia had drawn a lightsaber in that scene instead of Rey I imagine he'd still have fallen on his ass. It's just unreasonable to ignore the emotional context there, like seriously unless if you think Buu Saga Vegeta > Goku because after Buu blew up Earth Vegeta grabs Goku by the shirt and he doesn't fight back.

Waiting for your response right now...

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I said this in my edited post but if Han or Leia had drawn a lightsaber in that scene instead of Rey I imagine he'd still have fallen on his ass. It's just unreasonable to ignore the emotional context there, like seriously unless if you think Buu Saga Vegeta > Goku because after Buu blew up Earth Vegeta grabs Goku by the shirt and he doesn't fight back. Dude, this is who Luke is. He dropped his saber and wouldn't even finish Vader in Rotj. I also don't believe Leia or Han would have caused him to fall back. Luke fought back and disarmed her. She donned the lightsaber and Luke fell back. If he never fought back you'd have a point but he clearly defended himself and still lost his balance.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Dude, this is who Luke is. He dropped his saber and wouldn't even finish Vader in Rotj. I also don't believe Leia or Han would have caused him to fall back. Luke fought back and disarmed her. She donned the lightsaber and Luke fell back. If he never fought back you'd have a point but he clearly defended himself and still lost his balance.

Defending himself with a stick != using telekinesis on someone, which the Jedi by habit rarely do anyway. Do you think Luke broke down and confessed because he was scared Rey would kill him? Like, after making it clear he was waiting to die, (and knowing Rey wouldn't actually kill him), the guy who talked shit to Palpatine was just scared for himself? No, he obviously broke down *emotionally*, and his father's lightsaber probably didn't help.

Like, taking a step back and doing a gut/sanity check, is "Luke can't threaten Rey in the Force" really more plausible than "Luke was an emotional wreck"? IMO it's pretty obvious and only a problem because you're over analyzing the internal consistency of his self defense choices.

Sent you a PM Ell (sorry of it seems like I'm pestering)

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Defending himself with a stick != using telekinesis on someone, which the Jedi by habit rarely do anyway. Do you think Luke broke down and confessed because he was scared Rey would kill him? Like, after making it clear he was waiting to die, (and knowing Rey wouldn't actually kill him), the guy who talked shit to Palpatine was just scared for himself? No, he obviously broke down *emotionally*, and his father's lightsaber probably didn't help.

Like, taking a step back and doing a gut/sanity check, is "Luke can't threaten Rey in the Force" really more plausible than "Luke was an emotional wreck"? I think Luke feared her raw strength just as he feared Ben's. He admitted as much.

Your whole initial point had to do with a person not defending himself but in this instance he did defend himself. I didn't say she was going to kill him but she was clearly someone who affected him by him losing balance in that scene. Snoke disarmed her at will and moved her at will. It's speculation whether or not Luke could do so all out but it doesn't help that Luke cut himself off from the force for years so it only makes more sense Snoke is more powerful since he didn't go into semi retirement.


Snoke was more impressive against Ben and Rey. Regardless of your reasoning it's an objective fact Snoke was demonstrably superior than Luke in relation to those two.

Yeah but you're describing an emotional issue, not a combative one. Luke didn't fear Rey's potential because he thought "she could beat me in a fight".

If we follow that logic let's say Rey > Palpatine 'cause Luke wasn't scared of him! And Rey > Vader because she did better against Luke, right?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Yeah but you're describing an emotional issue, not a combative one. Luke didn't fear Rey's potential because he thought "she could beat me in a fight".

If we follow that logic let's say Rey > Palpatine 'cause Luke wasn't scared of him! And Rey > Vader because she did better against Luke, right? He feared her raw strength because she's exceptional and Luke failed Ben so he's paranoid and down in the dumps.

I never said Rey was greater in skill than Luke or Palpatine but in terms of force power she's amazing. Both Ben and her are rising in power to be the yin to the yang. I also didn't say she'd defeat Luke in an all out fight. What I am saying is Snoke proved to what degree his force powers are superior to Rey's. Luke didn't so a fact outweighs speculation. There's far more evidence Snoke defeats Luke.

It's fair to say Luke's powers are speculative, but that doesn't mean they're weak. If you want to go the speculation route we have to use:

1. Accolades, power scaling and common sense, which say Luke had much of Anakin's potential and many decades to improve after beating Vader in RotJ, and

2. His illusion/projection feat which is the best Force feat in live action Star Wars.

Imho punking Kylo from across the galaxy >>> TK'ing Rey and tossing her lightsaber around. That doesn't mean Luke >>> Snoke because the contexts are so different.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
It's fair to say Luke's powers are speculative, but that doesn't mean they're weak. If you want to go the speculation route we have to use:

1. Accolades, power scaling and common sense, which say Luke had much of Anakin's potential and many decades to improve after beating Vader in RotJ, and

2. His illusion/projection feat which is the best Force feat in live action Star Wars.

Imho punking Kylo from across the galaxy >>> TK'ing Rey and tossing her lightsaber around. That doesn't mean Luke >>> Snoke because the contexts are so different.

Wouldn't it just be the best Illusion feat? Cause The Force isn't one thing, but an application of different things. Just cause someone has good abilities with illusion doesn't mean everything else would be the same as that.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Wouldn't it just be the best Illusion feat? Cause The Force isn't one thing, but an application of different things. Just cause someone has good abilities with illusion doesn't mean everything else would be the same as that.

True, which is why I put it under speculative for this fight. It's just guesswork.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
It's fair to say Luke's powers are speculative, but that doesn't mean they're weak. If you want to go the speculation route we have to use:

1. Accolades, power scaling and common sense, which say Luke had much of Anakin's potential and many decades to improve after beating Vader in RotJ, and

2. His illusion/projection feat which is the best Force feat in live action Star Wars.

Imho punking Kylo from across the galaxy >>> TK'ing Rey and tossing her lightsaber around. That doesn't mean Luke >>> Snoke because the contexts are so different.



Agreed. Luke display at the end of TLJ was a level of mastery that we've never seen before in the films.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
It's fair to say Luke's powers are speculative, but that doesn't mean they're weak. If you want to go the speculation route we have to use:
I didn't say they were weaker I said they are weaker than Snoke's.



1. I agree he has potential and is extremely powerful but cutting himself off from the force doesn't improve his abilities.

2. It happened on a force nexus IMO but let's ignore that. What makes it the best and how is it relevant in a vs. battle.

He expended all his energy doing so and he was there to stall time for the resistance to escape. He didn't prove he's beat Kylo in an all out fight. To me he proved on a nexus he still had incredible concentration to pull the feat off.

Snoke's feat of bridging Kylo to Rey is amazing as well in its own right but has little bearing on his powers in a versus fight.

Originally posted by ares834


Agreed. Luke display at the end of TLJ was a level of mastery that we've never seen before in the films. Force nexus and irrelevant to a fight in the physical realm. Incredible feat of concentration and will but a moot point nonetheless.

So we use force nexus to discredit Luke's feats but not severe emotional distress to mitigate his losses?

Anyway, I honestly don't see how TK'ing Rey, who hadn't shown any training or knowledge in defending against TK or even using it to that point, is any more relevant. At least Luke's signals general power and mastery, which we can assume doesn't magically stop at projections.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
So we use force nexus to discredit Luke's feats but not severe emotional distress to mitigate his losses?

Anyway, I honestly don't see how TK'ing Rey, who hadn't shown any training or knowledge in defending against TK or even using it to that point, is any more relevant. At least Luke's signals general power and mastery, which we can assume doesn't magically stop at projections. I didn't ignore either circumstances but as I said Luke did defend himself against Rey just as Snoke did. Snoke looked objectively on another level whereas Luke didn't.

She resisted Kylo getting into her mind prior to even knowing she had powers. Snoke explained her rise in the force to counter Kylo's rise in power. We see they are force equals when they try to grapple the lightsaber. Snoke broke her mind and took the info Kylo was unable to retrieve. Snoke is on another level.

Luke's greatest feat still occurred via an amp and it doesn't prove he'd massacre Ben or Rey in a physical fight. Not saying he wouldn't but we see Snoke casually dismisses both Kylo and Rey. Snoke is objectively more impressive.

Originally posted by ares834
Considering his dialogue, Snoke appears to be sub-Vader.

Luke may be too.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Luke may be too. Luke already beat Vader in Rotj. Vader isn't close to Snoke in terms of force power.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Luke may be too.

From emotional turmoil and rust, sure. But in base power that makes no logical sense - 60's is too young for someone of Luke's potential to decline (Palpatine, Dooku)

Palpatine and Dooku weren't mentally broken hermits who completely shut away the force for ten-some-odd years. If they became stronger with age then it was because they were actively training or seeking knowledge.

I probably agree that pre-exile Luke should be stronger than he was in RotJ, but I don't really see any reason to disagree with Hamill's comparison between himself in RotJ and himself in TLJ.

Dear god it's gonna be the Rebels Maul debate all over again, isn't it?

Snoke believes that only Kylo with his potential realized can defeat Luke and tried hard to prevent the Resistance bringing him to their side. That there shows Luke>Snoke though an argument can be made that Snoke is referring pre tfa Luke.

Luke wins.

lol Luke would anal rape Snoke. No Lube

-

Originally posted by ares834
Considering his dialogue, Snoke appears to be sub-Vader. Luke wins this.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Wouldn't it just be the best Illusion feat? Cause The Force isn't one thing, but an application of different things. Just cause someone has good abilities with illusion doesn't mean everything else would be the same as that.


You're right there are different applications of the Force, and he might be rusty in Sabers (not that Snoke has any Saber feats himself), but the Force Astro Projection indicates his vast power. And even if he is rusty, we know he can fight from ROTJ.

So more than enough to put him above the likes of Snoke, whose best feat is TKing a captured Padawan.

Originally posted by The Merchant
Snoke believes that only Kylo with his potential realized can defeat Luke and tried hard to prevent the Resistance bringing him to their side. That there shows Luke>Snoke though an argument can be made that Snoke is referring pre tfa Luke.



The Last Jedi Visual Dictionary explicitly states this: Snoke believes only someone with the power of the Skywalker bloodline can kill Luke.

It also explains why Snoke was so worried about Luke in TFA and why his response to discovering Luke's location is to take his fleet and bomb Ach-To from orbit.

Snoke's unquestionably mighty in terms of skill and esoteric ability, but in terms of "raw power" and combat prowess, the only evidence we have available indicates he's lagging behind somebody like Luke.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
You're right there are different applications of the Force, and he might be rusty in Sabers (not that Snoke has any Saber feats himself), but the Force Astro Projection indicates his vast power. And even if he is rusty, we know he can fight from ROTJ.

So more than enough to put him above the likes of Snoke, whose best feat is TKing a captured Padawan. Her raw strength scared Luke and her power was equal to Kylo's. We see when they both wanted the lightsaber. It was a stalemate. Snoke was beyond her. We also saw Ben wake up after a dream and take care of Luke.

The responses are only becoming more bereft of objectivity. Why wouldn't Snoke bomb Luke into oblivion. Hell, your own point is pretty much the same thing we see from Palpatine in executing Order 66. Palpatine wasn't running around challenging Jedi to duels. What's worse is Palpatine tried fleeing from Yoda as soon as he recovered from the fl and defended himself. Just stop the nonsense.

Snoke >>>Rey or Ben. Luke was defeated by one and looked bad against the other. Facts matter.

Originally posted by relentless1
lol Luke would anal rape Snoke. No Lube Nah, cutting himself off from the force for years decreases his abilities. We also see an inexperienced Ben beat him after waking up to him standing over top of him like a creeper. Facts matter not your silly imagination and excuses.

Snoke is the most powerful force user ever seen on film.

Originally posted by The_Tempest


The Last Jedi Visual Dictionary explicitly states this: Snoke believes only someone with the power of the Skywalker bloodline can kill Luke.

Quote?

Originally posted by quanchi112
Palpatine wasn't running around challenging Jedi to duels.


He faced Maul/Opress on his own. He also faced Talzin alone on her home turf.

There were too many Jedi for him to go solo, and only an idiot would purposefully face Yoda alone.

Originally posted by quanchi112
The responses are only becoming more bereft of objectivity. Why wouldn't Snoke bomb Luke into oblivion. Hell, your own point is pretty much the same thing we see from Palpatine in executing Order 66. Palpatine wasn't running around challenging Jedi to duels. What's worse is Palpatine tried fleeing from Yoda as soon as he recovered from the fl and defended himself. Just stop the nonsense.


If Lord Tempest's quote can be verified, it seems to make it clear that Snoke didn't think he himself was more powerful than Luke, sooo...



You've already acknowledged that Luke's weakness in that scene was emotional and not physical (duh), and you don't hesitate to invoke context in other circumstances (.i.e. saying Luke did his projection feat on a nexus), so I don't see how you can just turn around and say that.

If you're going to ignore context for Luke, then that works both ways and you have to admit that he has the single best feat in the films.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
If Lord Tempest's quote can be verified, it seems to make it clear that Snoke didn't think he himself was more powerful than Luke, sooo...
https://i.imgur.com/qDILIQN.png

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Quote? He also believed Skywalker's power would rise to combat the growing power in the dark side in Kylo. He admitted he was wrong and applauded Luke's suicidal nature. He was going to give him his wish.

^ thanks (EDIT: @ant)

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
https://i.imgur.com/qDILIQN.png



So Luke > Snoke which makes sense.

Originally posted by quanchi112
He also believed Skywalker's power would rise to combat the growing power in the dark side in Kylo. He admitted he was wrong and applauded Luke's suicidal nature. He was going to give him his wish.

A completely unrelated prediction. Unless if you think Snoke vastly overestimated Luke's power or something, the only case you have here is if Luke in TLJ is significantly weaker than Luke in his prime, even after he re-entered the Force (which is very possible and why this is still a discussion).

Originally posted by Darth Thor
He faced Maul/Opress on his own. He also faced Talzin alone on her home turf.

There were too many Jedi for him to go solo, and only an idiot would purposefully face Yoda alone. Palpatine's intentions weren't to face any of them. He did what he had to when he had to as would Snoke. Palpatine didn't want to see Yoda enter his chamber. He hoped he'd have been dead because the order went out to take them all out. He even says how powerful the Jedi were.

Point is any politically powerful leader doesn't run around challenging powerful foes unless they are hell bent on combat to prove themselves.

He sent Vader to the Jedi temple that doesn't mean he couldn't have done it himself but it's a pointless risk. The same applies to Snoke but the double standards are starting to become nauseating.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
A completely unrelated prediction. Unless if you think Snoke vastly overestimated Luke's power or something, the only case you have here is if Luke in TLJ is significantly weaker than Luke in his prime, even after he re-entered the Force (which is very possible and why this is still a discussion). He did. He isn't all knowing no one is. He wasn't aware Luke was suicidal or that he caught himself off from the force for years. He wanted the last Jedi killed right after he had Rey killed. He wanted all true Jedi killed just as Palpatine did because they can spread and are a threat.

Originally posted by quanchi112
He did. He isn't all knowing no one is. He wasn't aware Luke was suicidal or that he caught himself off from the force for years. He wanted the last Jedi killed right after he had Rey killed. He wanted all true Jedi killed just as Palpatine did because they can spread and are a threat.

Yeah, but we're not talking about emo Luke here, we're talking about a Luke who wants to fight. You could say he suffers from rust or old age but you can't carry over his psychological baggage to the discussion.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Yeah, but we're not talking about emo Luke here, we're talking about a Luke who wants to fight. You could say he suffers from rust or old age but you can't carry over his psychological baggage to the discussion. Luke usually doesn't want to fight. That's who he is. He tossed his saber down to Vader after he beat him.

Yes, we can since this is the Luke we have to gauge. Logically Luke is powerful with the force but cutting himself off is a fact. We can't separate facts and theorize on Luke.

I personally rate the force users in terms of power Snoke is at the top with Luke at number two. Who knows what he'd be capable of had he not cut himself off and continued to progress. We can only speculate but I debate based off the facts provided.

"Luke usually doesn't want to fight" - oh, please. Luke tosses his lightsaber away after he had beaten Vader, who by the way is his father with good still in him while Snoke isn't and doesn't. He didn't know of the Emperor's abilities and thought Vader would turn (correctly). He is not some sort of pacifist who will just sit there and let Snoke kill him.

"I debate based off the facts provided" - dude, you were just provided a "fact" that says Luke > Snoke and are countering it with pseudo-psychoanalysis.

There's no indication Luke at the end of TLJ wouldn't be as powerful as whatever peak hypothetical Luke that Snoke is thinking about is.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
"Luke usually doesn't want to fight" - oh, please. Luke tosses his lightsaber away after he had beaten Vader, who by the way is his father with good still in him while Snoke isn't and doesn't. He didn't know of the Emperor's abilities and thought Vader would turn (correctly). He is not some sort of pacifist who will just sit there and let Snoke kill him.

"I debate based off the facts provided" - dude, you were just provided a "fact" that says Luke > Snoke and are countering it with pseudo-psychoanalysis. Vader had to goad him into fighting. He also tosses his lightsaber in retardation with Palpatine in the same ****ing room.

I don't think he'd approach Snoke in the same manner but Luke clearly has been more of a pansy than a badass warrior. I don't think he'd let Snoke kill him. I do think Snoke would defeat him with what we see in the film.

No, it doesn't. That's an opinion and destiny related which makes no logical sense considering what we see of Kylo in this film. We see Snoke blatantly above the power of a Skywalker (Ben Solo) and wanted Luke dead as quickly as possible. Snoke wasn't going to keep training Kylo and make sure he's at his best to send after Luke once he discovered his location. He was going to annihilate the entire island after Rey was killed. That doesn't mean he's going to send Kylo to personally kill him. We already know Snoke >>>Kylo in the film.

Luke already says it's ridiculous to assume just himself and his laser sword could do anything to end this. What he can do is inspire hope. That's what Snoke wants to destroy that and the Jedi who often inspire it.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Vader had to goad him into fighting. He also tosses his lightsaber in retardation with Palpatine in the same ****ing room.

I don't think he'd approach Snoke in the same manner but Luke clearly has been more of a pansy than a badass warrior. I don't think he'd let Snoke kill him. I do think Snoke would defeat him with what we see in the film.

No, it doesn't. That's an opinion and destiny related which makes no logical sense considering what we see of Kylo in this film. We see Snoke blatantly above the power of a Skywalker (Ben Solo) and wanted Luke dead as quickly as possible. Snoke wasn't going to keep training Kylo and make sure he's at his best to send after Luke once he discovered his location. He was going to annihilate the entire island after Rey was killed. That doesn't mean he's going to send Kylo to personally kill him. We already know Snoke >>>Kylo in the film.

Luke already says it's ridiculous to assume just himself and his laser sword could do anything to end this. What he can do is inspire hope. That's what Snoke wants to destroy that and the Jedi who often inspire it.

Dude, you can keep saying Snoke > Luke but its fact and pointed by people here that its written in a canon book that Snoke knows only someone of Skywalker bloodline can kill Luke.

Arguing a boy brought the ceiling down on Snoke is ridiculous, Luke was not in his right mind there anyway.

Originally posted by darth venki
Dude, you can keep saying Snoke > Luke but its fact and pointed by people here that its written in a canon book that Snoke knows only someone of Skywalker bloodline can kill Luke.

Arguing a boy brought the ceiling down on Snoke is ridiculous, Luke was not in his right mind there anyway. Snoke admitted he was wrong about Luke in the film once he discovered what he was up to. He also was going to annihilate and give him the death he deserved. He made no mention of Kylo killing him. Just stop with ignoring the film and badly misinterpreting the visual dictionary.

Ben's instincts defeated Luke. That's a fact. Maybe Luke shouldn't approach his nephew with a lightsaber while the kid is asleep. Creepy old bastard.

Snoke is greater than Luke by far. Rey put him down when she wielded her saber and Ben defeated him after rem sleep.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Vader had to goad him into fighting. He also tosses his lightsaber in retardation with Palpatine in the same ****ing room.

I don't think he'd approach Snoke in the same manner but Luke clearly has been more of a pansy than a badass warrior. I don't think he'd let Snoke kill him. I do think Snoke would defeat him with what we see in the film.

No, it doesn't. That's an opinion and destiny related which makes no logical sense considering what we see of Kylo in this film. We see Snoke blatantly above the power of a Skywalker (Ben Solo) and wanted Luke dead as quickly as possible. Snoke wasn't going to keep training Kylo and make sure he's at his best to send after Luke once he discovered his location. He was going to annihilate the entire island after Rey was killed. That doesn't mean he's going to send Kylo to personally kill him. We already know Snoke >>>Kylo in the film.

Luke already says it's ridiculous to assume just himself and his laser sword could do anything to end this. What he can do is inspire hope. That's what Snoke wants to destroy that and the Jedi who often inspire it.

Luke wasn't trying to kill Vader because Vader was his father and he still saw good in him. That context doesn't remotely translate here.

By that logic, we might as well say that Snoke isn't going to attack Luke at all but just try to play catch with his lightsaber and then comically narrate his thoughts like he does with Rey.

So you don't trust Snoke's explicit opinion that he's lesser than Luke, but you extrapolate from a mentally beaten Luke's being afraid of Rey's potential and scared of Anakin's lightsaber that maybe he's not more powerful than her by a wide enough margin to be more powerful than Snoke?

Let's remove the double standards and absurdities (like saying Luke won't fight to kill because he didn't against Vader, his own father) and just work with the evidence at hand. You can't say Snoke is more powerful than Luke because he throws around Rey's lightsaber.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
There's no indication Luke at the end of TLJ wouldn't be as powerful as whatever peak hypothetical Luke that Snoke is thinking about is.

Well, he cut himself off from the Force for several years.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Luke wasn't trying to kill Vader because Vader was his father and he still saw good in him. That context doesn't remotely translate here.

By that logic, we might as well say that Snoke isn't going to attack Luke at all but just try to play catch with his lightsaber and then comically narrate his thoughts like he does with Rey.

So you don't trust Snoke's explicit opinion that he's lesser than Luke, but you extrapolate from a mentally beaten Luke's being afraid of Rey's potential and scared of Anakin's lightsaber that maybe he's not more powerful than her by a wide enough margin to be more powerful than Snoke?

Let's remove the double standards and absurdities (like saying Luke won't fight to kill because he didn't against Vader, his own father) and just work with the evidence at hand. You can't say Snoke is more powerful than Luke because he throws around Rey's lightsaber. I didn't say Luke wouldn't fight Snoke I just said he's always been a bit of a pussy.

Snoke was going to have her killed in the cruelest way possible by having her new buddy Kylo do the deed. It all works out if he has Kylo kill his uncle.

He isn't lesser than Luke. That's never been established and your interpretation isn't a fact. Snoke admits in the film he was wrong about Luke. It's about as relevant as saying Palpatine believed Luke would turn to the dark side. When he didn't he took other measures. The same is here when Snoke finds out about Luke and assesses Rey is the one who is rising in power to balance out Kylo's darkness. He will have her killed by Kylo then blow up Luke's island.

I can say he looked more impressive against Rey and Luke. We don't see Luke casually manipulate her body at his will with the force. You're also ignoring he cut himself off for years so it doesn't make sense he'd be as powerful.

Snoke also bridged the two which shows tremendous force power. I don't like to bring that feat up because it's irrelevant in a fight but I know you guys adore your feats.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Well, he cut himself off from the Force for several years. Ask D. Thor if he believes Maul is superior since he survived being cut in half while Luke merged with the force when no one even hurt him physically.

lol if you want to discount feats then fine, by narrative spirit / accolades Luke is the grandson of the Force itself lol. Anyway:

1. You claim Luke is a pussy. Other than the first part of TLJ, this is literally the antithesis of his character. Your only example is Vader, which honestly makes me think you didn't even watch the Original Trilogy if you think Luke didn't kill Vader out of fear when it was the exact opposite.

Seriously, I have no idea how you can use his fight with Vader as evidence of cowardice or a lack of fighting spirit and maintain a straight face. Like do you realize how comically the point of the Throne Room scene sailed over your head?

Luke didn't kill Vader because he saw the light in him. He will have no reservations cutting down Snoke, who has shown no signs of being redeemable. There is no evidence that Luke is a hesitant fighter outside of a very iconic and special circumstance that doesn't apply here.

Please don't ever use that argument again.

2. Snoke wouldn't kill her himself. By your refusal to assess story, context, emotional state or basic circumstances this means Snoke can't kill anyone without Kylo.

You're applying context here at your own convenience, not by any internally consistent rationale.

3. You're desperately trying to nullify the smoking gun by throwing out red herrings about Snoke not knowing Luke's plan in Ach To which have nothing to do with Luke's power. Hint: he would know much better than you, given he has his own senses, the observations of Kylo, knowledge of any of Luke's feats, etc.

Snoke thinks Luke is too powerful to kill alone. Luke has a more impressive display of the Force, better accolades, and already bested Vader back in RotJ. How are you not accepting this?

4. You're so impressed by Snoke moving Rey around a bit and tossing around her lightsaber in some loops while laughing. Like seriously?

But if I ask you why Snoke didn't defend himself against Kylo, you'll have an excuse ready that you then conveniently don't afford Luke vs. Rey, even though Luke had a far more legitimate circumstance.

I could be snide and say that Luke's performance against Rey is better than Snoke's against Kylo because Snoke died, lmao.

SNOKE STOMPS LUKE SUCKS

Also Luke blasting that stone hut casually is a better feat than what Snoke has done in the movie

Originally posted by quanchi112
Ask D. Thor if he believes Maul is superior since he survived being cut in half while Luke merged with the force when no one even hurt him physically.





What???

Originally posted by The Merchant
Also Luke blasting that stone hut casually is a better feat than what Snoke has done in the movie

Not to mention this is straight after reconnecting with the force after several years being shut off from it.

Quanchi, Snoke never implies that he was wrong about Luke in the context that Snoke was actually capable of defeating Luke. I think what he found out was that Luke had shut himself off from the force to prevent himself from being detected by Snoke. He says himself that he didn't expect Luke to be so wise .

Anyway, I don't think it's entirely out of the realm of possibility that Snoke is more powerful than Luke. Now don't get me wrong, Quanchi is Snoke wanking very hard over some very stupid accolades that any Council-Tier Jedi plus could do .

Why? Luke tells Rey that he knew that he was no match for the growing darkness. Presumably this is Snoke. Whether or not Luke was incorrect about this assumption or not, it's worth considering his words. This growing darkness was strong enough to make his Skywalker rage come out briefly.

Anyway, it's too unsure to definitively say either way, but I'd just ask people to consider what Luke says, that he saw himself as no match for the growing darkness.

^ Pretty sure that meant he couldn't stop Kylo from turning dark.

The line is "Once I realized I was no match for the darkness growing inside him." It's not a reference to Snoke or power, but Ben's dark urges.

Which brings up the question, Why? I think it would be much more difficult to bring someone out who was already deep in darkness IE: Vader, than it would be for someone who is growing/going down into the darkness. It's not like Kylo couldn't be taught to stay away, Luke was aware of it.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
What??? Luke wasn't even hurt and passed on. Despite a nexus amp using his forces powers caused him to pass on. Maul survived being cut in half so based off your logic Maul is greater than Luke. D. Thor logic.

Originally posted by samappo
Not to mention this is straight after reconnecting with the force after several years being shut off from it.

Quanchi, Snoke never implies that he was wrong about Luke in the context that Snoke was actually capable of defeating Luke. I think what he found out was that Luke had shut himself off from the force to prevent himself from being detected by Snoke. He says himself that he didn't expect Luke to be so wise .He never states he can't defeat Luke in battle. He wanted him dead by any means necessary. He wants all the Jedi killed so their hope and inspiration doesn't spread.

Luke himself said its silly for him to make a huge difference with his laser sword alone. He's one powerful Jedi but he'd be annihilated by the first order. That's false since Rey is actively using the force and he even created a bridge between her and Kylo but he didn't trace a bead on her either. Snoke needed her in front of him to break her will with his force power to figure out Luke's location.


Sidious used the force during the same time frame the Jedi were trying to find him as well but they were unable to do so. He was right in front of the dopes and they couldn't even figure it out. They were failure personified. My every instinct now made canon so you fanboys can no longer deny Yoda is the epitome of failure

Originally posted by quanchi112
He never states he can't defeat Luke in battle.

He believes that only a Skywalker read: not Snoke can kill Luke. That makes it pretty obvious.

We all know that if the Visual Dictionary had said "Luke knows no living Jedi can kill Snoke" or something you'd be gloating and throwing it in our faces every chance you got, just own up to it. If Snoke were so obviously stronger than Luke in the film you might have grounds to keep disputing, but your incredibly unconvincing attempt to scale them off of an emotionally conflicted Luke with a stick isn't enough.

Plus, Snoke tells Rey he's going to kill Luke by bombing the island from orbit. Snoke doesn't want to go down and face Luke himself.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
He believes that only a Skywalker read: not Snoke can kill Luke. That makes it pretty obvious.

We all know that if the Visual Dictionary had said "Luke knows no living Jedi can kill Snoke" or something you'd be gloating and throwing it in our faces every chance you got, just own up to it. If Snoke were so obviously stronger than Luke in the film you might have grounds to keep disputing, but your incredibly unconvincing attempt to scale them off of an emotionally conflicted Luke with a stick isn't enough. That is destiny talk not like he's unkillable. He also states in the film they are going to obliterate the island. He never says he's not powerful enough to defeat Luke. That's the problem here you'll sidestep the film and misinterpret one quote to reach your biased conclusions.

That would only be Luke's opinion. Feelings are not facts. None of these characters are all knowing. Kenobi believed in Anakin and never believed he'd turn to the dark side but that doesn't mean his opinion didn't change when he saw Anakin's actions.

Based off the facts Snoke wins. It isn't close. Luke is powerful but he just doesn't stack up to Snoke.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Plus, Snoke tells Rey he's going to kill Luke by bombing the island from orbit. Snoke doesn't want to go down and face Luke himself. Why would he ? Should Trump challenge that dope from North Korea to a one on one fight ? Just as Palpatine ordered the Jedi to be killed he wasn't personally involved with slaying Jedi until Yoda confronted him. Even then once Yoda recovered he tried to exit the fight. That doesn't prove he isn't as powerful as Yoda just that he didn't want to risk his life in a duel.

Originally posted by quanchi112
That is destiny talk not like he's unkillable.

Lol, that's a new one. Evidence?



The most objective, reasonable interpretation of "only a Skywalker can kill Luke" is "Luke is really powerful so you need the potential of an heir of the Chosen One to beat him". Instead you invent a fictitious prophecy to support your position, lmao.



But your most frequent argument is Luke's opinion on Kylo and Rey's power.

Why do you take Luke's opinion on raw power and extrapolate to guess current power, but not Snoke's direct assessment of Luke's abilities?

You make more double standards than almost anyone, lol.



Based off the facts Snoke, who is hardly one to underestimate himself (quite the opposite), doesn't think he can kill Luke. If you were interested in being objective you'd just acknowledge Luke's superiority based on the available data.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Lol, that's a new one. Evidence?
I have no more evidence other than my interpretation. You have yours and somehow believe your interpretation is a fact.



He says they are going to obliterate his island from space which has nothing to do with Kylo who he proves he's far more powerful than in the film. Kylo can't overpower Rey while Snoke tosses her around at will so how much sense would it make to send a less powerful guy than himself to take out Luke at that point. He will have him slaughtered as any powerful ruler with an army would.

Luke himself says it's silly to think Luke himself can take on the First Order. Your interpration makes no sense on any level.
It's a good indicator of sensing power. We also see Rey knock him on his ass which is a fact. We see Ben defeat and almost kill him.

I do not see Luke dramatically overpower Rey or Kylo. I see Snoke do so.

Snoke wants his location to have him killed. He isn't sending Kylo to kill him via duel as that makes no sense. He does send Kylo out to carry his objectives but that'd be a foolish risk to take as well when they can safely obliterate him from space.

Snoke was unaware he cut himself off from the force so he wasn't aware of Luke's mindset and his recent experiences either. He admits he was wrong about Luke when he acknowledged Rey's rise in power.

@quanchi

*facepalm* The fact that he said he was going to obliterate the island proves that he's not aware of your fan prophecy but was just talking about combat. He thought: "Kylo could become powerful enough to kill Luke, but he isn't, so I'll just use turbolasers".

Just because he has guards and weak physicality doesn't necessarily mean that Snoke *relies* on his guards. There's only one person who could actually stand up to Snoke in the galaxy, and that's Luke. It's probably more of an attempt to replicate the old empire, which is what Snoke is obviously trying to do if you read the Visual Dictionary.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
@quanchi

*facepalm* The fact that he said he was going to obliterate the island proves that he's not aware of your fan prophecy but was just talking about combat. He thought: "Kylo could become powerful enough to kill Luke, but he isn't, so I'll just use turbolasers". In the film he admits he was wrong about Luke and is just going to have him killed. No powerful leader outside of pricing himself would take the risk. We see Kylo have Luke blasted but when that doesn't work he goes down there himself to kill him. Snoke wanted him killed but never says he isn't powerful enough to do so. Just stop ignoring the film and common sense.

Originally posted by quanchi112
In the film he admits he was wrong about Luke and is just going to have him killed. No powerful leader outside of pricing himself would take the risk. We see Kylo have Luke blasted but when that doesn't work he goes down there himself to kill him. Snoke wanted him killed but never says he isn't powerful enough to do so. Just stop ignoring the film and common sense.



He was wrong about Luke's decisions, not his power, for pete's sake.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
He was wrong about Luke's decisions, not his power, for pete's sake. Iyo not mine. He also cut himself off from the force for years. Do you think that increased Luke's power ?

Lol I said that myself - before we go on, do you concede every rebuttal to the quote aside from that one?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Lol I said that myself - before we go on, do you concede every rebuttal to the quote aside from that one? I do not concede a single point.

Originally posted by quanchi112
To protect others I can see a Jedi doing so out of duty. Either way it doesn't prove anything combat wise. So you think Dooku could survive being cut in half ? Or Palpatine ?


It's a dark side thing so no point in speculating.

It's a show of power. Like Luke's astro projection feat, which wasn't a combat feat either. But you know he's ridiculously powerful to do that.

But I'll grant you it's a combination of dark side power and physical durability.


Not sure if Dooku would survive that, but Palpatine definitely would.



Originally posted by quanchi112
We don't know but we don't ignore the fact they don't have the same biologies nor were they the same age. If you weight train at age 25 and 70 will your body have the same results ?


The biology part is Speculation. We can only go by the showings we have, and will take other factors into account if they're specifically stated somewhere.

Again, the feat was mainly fueled by dark side. Snoke being a physical weakling who needs guards to protect him doesn't help his case.



Originally posted by quanchi112
We also see him use his powers to quickly punk Kylo ****ing Ren. His guards don't need to save him. He waves the ****ers off.


Yeah from an advantaged position where he had more time to react. And his guards intimidate Ren right after.

Sure he's more powerful than Ren. But there's nothing to suggest he would ragdoll Ren the way he does Rey.

Originally posted by quanchi112
So old Maul dies to less since he's old. Look at what Kylo has survived in a Force Awakens. That doesn't mean he beats Snoke. I don't know if you're trolling or genuinely unable to see the sheer irrelevance of your point.


Maul's can take more than both Snoke and Kylo. He's also a far more skilled combatant going by feats. The only advantage Snoke has his TK, which up until TLJ you were arguing your ass off every week that TK only works when an opponent is caught off guard.





Originally posted by quanchi112
Snoke would fl him or remove his light saber and force rape him. Maul wouldn't ever touch him. Snoke's body is old and weak but he has the force the same as Yoda whose body was old and needed a cane for walking.


Yeah in your fantasies lol

He's done nothing to show he'd force rape Maul.

Yoda can use the force and be more physically able than Maul. Force powers enhance physicality like that.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I do not concede a single point.

Then show me where Snoke admits he was wrong about Luke's power, please.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
It's a dark side thing so no point in speculating.

It's a show of power. Like Luke's astro projection feat, which wasn't a combat feat either. But you know he's ridiculously powerful to do that.

I also said surviving being killed isn't a dark side thing. Padme just lost the will to live and she isn't a dark sider.

Ok so it doesn't really matter in combat. Cool.


Ok. **** no he wouldn't. Dude was horribly scarred by fl which didn't happen to Luke, Maul, etc.

It doesn't pertain to a fight between the two. His physical body is older. Who cares ? Yoda's body is weaker than Kenobi's but we all know he'd win a duel. Same goes for Anoke he's too powerful with the force. He'd disarm Maul at will.







Oh please Snoke always called his hiards off. They don't put Kylo down Snoke does.

Yes, there is since Rey and Ren are equals. They stalemate for the lightsaber. Snoke destroys her. Rey resists Ren's attempts to extract the information. Snoke just rips it out of her.


Prior to Snoke that is correct. The power he displayed is off the charts. The manner in which he manipulates Rey's body however he wants, he force rapes the info something Kylo was unable to achieve, and how he disarms her whenever he wants. No one has ever dominated someone as powerful as she is going by Luke and Snoke's comments and her feats.





Ben and Rey are clearly force badasses. Maul was never that powerful on the force he was an exceptional duelist and a physical specimen. Snoke destroys him. He just can't compete. Snoke's force powers can enhance his physicality as well but since we don't see him with a saber I won't push the obvious.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Then show me where Snoke admits he was wrong about Luke's power, please. At no point does he ever say Luke is more powerful than himself. Rey's power rose in the force not Luke's to combat Kylo's rise in power. Snoke was also much more powerful than Kylo. Just stop. This is ridiculous.

Lmfao, the Visual Dictionary states that Snoke thinks only a Skywalker can kill Luke. Snoke is not a Skywalker. But you're claiming Snoke can kill Luke in this thread, lolol.

Snoke doesn't strike you as very humble, does he? So if he doesn't think he can kill someone, he probably can't.

Or what alternative explanation is there? The most hilarious sign of defeat was when you resorted to claiming there was some sort of prophecy about killing Luke, L O L.

You lost. The visual dictionary quote killed whatever weak argument you had left. Go back to Maul wanking, people will respect you more.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Lmfao, the Visual Dictionary states that Snoke thinks only a Skywalker can kill Luke. Snoke is not a Skywalker. But you're claiming Snoke can kill Luke in this thread, lolol.

Snoke doesn't strike you as very humble, does he? So if he doesn't think he can kill someone, he probably can't.

Or what alternative explanation is there? The most hilarious sign of defeat was when you resorted to claiming there was some sort of prophecy about killing Luke, L O L.

You lost. The visual dictionary quote killed whatever weak argument you had left. Go back to Maul wanking, people will respect you more. Snoke was going to have Luke himself killed in the film not by Kylo Ren so your point just flew away in the film.

His opinion nor is anyone's reality. For ****s sake if you don't grasp he never literally says that nor has anyone's opinion ever been reality until it's been proven I don't know what to tell you. He also wasn't aware Luke cut himself off from the force. He also admitted he was wrong about Luke.

There doesn't need to be a propehcy for someone to believe something out of destiny. We see it all the ****ing time in reality where something happens and people refer to someone or a team as the team of destiny.

Ellimist your bias and you coming out of whatever cave you were dwelling in doesn't constitute as a legitimate argument. You're the same guy who starts judged debates you just later walk away from despite hollow boasts. I'd say lets battlezone Snoke vs. Palpatine after the DVD release so the clips will be onnyourube but we both know you'll never persist this long. You'll grew bored and fade back into the darkness.

Based off objective showings and facts at the time of the Last Jedi Snoke is greater than Luke. Feelings and opinions don't override facts, sport.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Snoke was going to have Luke himself killed in the film not by Kylo Ren so your point just flew away in the film.


No, that just means he thinks orbital bombardment by a fleet can also kill Luke, and Kylo wasn't strong enough yet. Obviously the visual dictionary doesn't mean Luke is literally invincible to turbolaser fire.

Try again.



So Luke meeting Rey once and vaguely saying her raw power is scary is soooo important to you, but Snoke's opinion that drives his spending years to turn Ben isn't?

Hypocrisy at its finest.



Dude, I've said what feels like 20 times by now that you haven't demonstrated he thought he was wrong about Luke's power. Every time I point that out, you retreat to another line of argument, then come back and say the same thing again with seemingly no memory of previously getting owned. What's wrong with you?



So you accuse me of using my "emotions", but then you make up some sort of feeling of destiny Snoke has?

LOL, ok.



No. Snoke doesn't think he can kill Luke. Snoke's opinion holds much more weight than your own inventions about destiny or some shit.

mmm Hold on a second. In all our Superman debates, you try to dismiss Superman's beating the Justice League because they weren't trying to kill him, only to restrain him. Isn't that the same thing with Luke vs. Rey?

Why, yes it is! You fail, once again, lmfao.

it appears that snoke is scared of luke and luke is scared of snoke. if snoke had his guards with him, he will win, if not, then luke would win