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Sheev couldn't polish GEoM's boots and survive his presence, you'd best not tempt the true God Emperor.

Well done on the format.

Yeah, pretty sexy tbh.

Danke

This is not going to go the way you think.

Bandon solos.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
This is not going to go the way you think.

Bandon solos.

Stop quoting that piece of shit movie

So who wants to start?

edit

You can go ahead

Darth Sion solos the scrubs.

Your trolling is unfunny and too transparent

I'm going to start with a shorter outline because I suspect things will rapidly expand from here and you can request more evidence/elaboration where necessary.


Luke already beat Sidious in a duel in Dark Empire. His only help was Leia unlocking some of his potential with BM. I think it's intuitive and fairly reasonable to say that 30+ years of training unlocks more potential than an untrained Leia's battle meditation. BM on individual fighters hasn't been described to be that absurdly strong, even from masters in the art, and it's suggested that Luke didn't really notice that he was being amped. Given that Luke makes several pretty noticeable jumps in power from DE, I think it's safe to say he's surpassed Sidious in sabers by a noticeable amount.
If there isn't a large disparity in Force power, fighters can usually resist one another's Force attacks in fair circumstances and so the battle turns to sabers, where Luke wins.
It's pretty indisputable that Luke's potential far outstrips Palpatine's. Then on top of that we know that 1) he's had several decades to grow in power, but isn't at the point where even Force users with less potential than him start to decline, 2) he is ridiculously prodigious and matched Vader in sabers with like 1.5 years of training (and it's stated in Shadows of Mindor like 6 months after Endor that he's already stronger than Vader in the Force). So it's difficult to imagine how he's not above Palpatine by FotJ.
There are multiple sources which suggest Luke regularly holds back his power. Jaina says in LotF (let me know which sources I'm giving you're unfamiliar with so I can cite them) that she doesn't know half of what Luke can do, and Luke in another novel speculates about how he could tear up an attacking pirate fleet but won't because the dark side or whatever. But he won't hold back at all against Palpatine. This is just to guard against "he struggled against Lumiya" arguments or whatever.
Luke has better TK feats (dovin basals, destroying Vader's fortress, pinning Caedus to his chair, then ragdolling Caedus through his starfighter).
Luke has more experience fighting enemies on his level in actual combat while Palpatine only ever really fought Yoda and Mace Windu like several decades ago. Indeed, when it is necessary Luke regularly hits above his batting range (.i.e. vs. Abeloth's avatars).
Given Luke's advantages in accolades + powerscaling + narrative intent + beating Palpatine before, you'd need to establish a pretty solid set of superior feats on Sidious's end, and I doubt you can.

Originally posted by Azronger
Your trolling is unfunny and too transparent

I was just marking my presence, don't mind me.

A response will be arriving in a day or two

Oh god, awesome. Love the formatting.
Decent Opener Ell, but Az will crush you with a 12 post long counter.

What are the win conditions for this fight? Physical death?

You're welcome, Az.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
What are the win conditions for this fight? Physical death?

Physical death is not the end for Palpatine - it'd be unfair to restrict him of one of his powers. Luke has to obliterate his spirit to win.

Originally posted by AncientPower
You're welcome, Az.

Your unwitting contributions to Sheevism continue to be deliciously ironic. It's clear to me that no matter what one does, Sheev benefits from it in one way or another. His Imperial Majesty's influence is omnipresent.

Seems like a very interesting argument, I'm on the fence personally, though I would assume unrestrained dark side Luke could probably pull it off, that's just a gut feeling though, and I expect the continuing debate to be informal for myself.

On the note of lightsabers, I've got a few humble thoughts:

1. That's assuming Sheev even indulges Luke with a lightsaber duel. If he's all out and not feeling like toying around with that "Jedi weapon", I doubt he'd even pull one out, unless himself and Luke were absolutely stalemated.

2. For people of this force power level and mastery, years of not fighting doesn't seem to really mean anything. Sheev didn't fight properly or practice for a decade and blitzed three Jedi swordmasters before Windu could even ****ing react. Plus, his accolades in dueling are extremely impressive. A master of all weapons, styles and is ambidextrous. He never goes a millimeter out of position with his saber.

In DE, he disarms Luke in a very short duel after just transferring to a fresh clone body.

I was propping up Sidious since before Bane wank was at its peak. It's adorable that you think you're that important though.

Originally posted by samappo
Seems like a very interesting argument, I'm on the fence personally, though I would assume unrestrained dark side Luke could probably pull it off, that's just a gut feeling though, and I expect the continuing debate to be informal for myself.

On the note of lightsabers, I've got a few humble thoughts:

1. That's assuming Sheev even indulges Luke with a lightsaber duel. If he's all out and not feeling like toying around with that "Jedi weapon", I doubt he'd even pull one out, unless himself and Luke were absolutely stalemated.

2. For people of this force power level and mastery, years of not fighting doesn't seem to really mean anything. Sheev didn't fight properly or practice for a decade and blitzed three Jedi swordmasters before Windu could even ****ing react. Plus, his accolades in dueling are extremely impressive. A master of all weapons, styles and is ambidextrous. He never goes a millimeter out of position with his saber.

In DE, he disarms Luke in a very short duel after just transferring to a fresh clone body.

This debate is between me and Ellimist. Don't interfere.

Just saying xD

Originally posted by AncientPower
I was propping up Sidious since before Bane wank was at its peak. It's adorable that you think you're that important though.

Yeah, yeah, you have absolute monopoly over Legends characters, as well as decades of experience debating them. In other words, we are supposed to take you seriously.

Hey, Az, not right now, but just "in case" the debate doesn't reach its conclusion, could I take over? I don't think I have ever debated you on anything seriously.

If Ell's fine with that, sure.

Just a legit question, does DE Sidious have shatterpoint? Since he's a master of all known Jedi techniques, wouldn't put it beyond him to know it, even though he's not confirmed as having it .

PS Not saying that shatterpoint is a Jedi technique.

Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
Yeah, yeah, you have absolute monopoly over Legends characters, as well as decades of experience debating them. In other words, we are supposed to take you seriously.

I don't have a monopoly on anything. Though that's ironic considering you're defending a guy 'appointed' by Tempest to take over Sheevism.

But no, Az is actually woefully poor at Sheev wank.

Don't pollute my thread AP. Take the shitposting elsewhere

Originally posted by samappo
Just a legit question, does DE Sidious have shatterpoint? Since he's a master of all known Jedi techniques, wouldn't put it beyond him to know it, even though he's not confirmed as having it .

PS Not saying that shatterpoint is a Jedi technique.

He's also confirmed to have learned all the greatest dark side techniques and every aspect of the Force in all its guises from over a million worlds from thousands of different cults including the Jedi Order, the Banite Sith and the Blackguard, the latter two having been hunting for Force knowledge all over the galaxy for a millenium, and the former having one of the two largest libraries in the galaxy containing info on the Force dating back 25 millenia that he had full access to as Emperor, not to mention the amount of different Force powers credited to him being "almost unlimited," on top of the rumor of him inventing new ones on a whim.

I'd say the chances of him not knowing Shatterpoint are very low.

Ok I am eagerly awaiting your response

^ blah it copies weirdly from word

Tabbing doesn't work on KMC. The only way to indent is to use a blank image with KMC's background color with the measurements you want.

Visiting my grandparents today. I have **** all to do there so I'm saving the response for then.

Yeah Ell, you need to get a few updates.

Something in the last year has changed on Lucas's vision that Luke > Sidious? I'd like to know that too.

Not talking about that, but things like Mace ranking.

What happened to him?

Lucas quotes that he's a legit challenge for Sidious, mainly, as well as Gillard's quotes.

Yeah, I don't think anybody thinks Vader is up to par with Windu as a duelist anymore.

The original stance was that Mace had a peak performance + vapaad.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Yeah, I don't think anybody thinks Vader is up to par with Windu as a duelist anymore.
That's because Vader is the best duelist in the franchise now.

Not talking canon.

Vader's the second best duelist next to the Outlander then.

kekek

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
That's because Vader is the best duelist in the franchise now.

Best duelist in the movies only so far is either Anakin, Sidious or Yoda.

Originally posted by samappo
Best duelist in the movies only so far is either Anakin, Sidious or Yoda. **** no. Anakin lost to Dooku, Kenobi, and Luke badly. He's so vastly overrated it kind of makes me sick.

Sidious lost to Windu. Windu was a superior duelist to Palpatine. Yoda was a force equal but he also was a joke since he failed to best Dooku someone both weaker in force power and an inferior duelist despite a galactic war on the line.

I think quanchi is still coping with Maul's humiliation.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I think quanchi is still coping with Maul's humiliation. I never said Maul was the best duelist just that he'd beat Vader and some others in a duel. He was past his prime near the time of ANH.

Pretty sure you're backtracking heavily tbh. Until the final Rebels duel you were still high on him, and now you're coping by wanking Snoke.

Maul was in his prime till Kenobi killed him, then people changed their minds.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Pretty sure you're backtracking heavily tbh. Until the final Rebels duel you were still high on him, and now you're coping by wanking Snoke. His physical abilities had eroded and he was broken as per the cowboy hat wearing creator. He's still formidable but not at his best. He matched Tano. I always go with the facts. I'm as objective as they come.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Maul was in his prime till Kenobi killed him, then people changed their minds. Nah.

Quanchi, I challenge you to a debate: did Windu legitimately disarm Sidious, and was he a better duelist?

I'll start the thread if you want

wtf KMC isn't quoting shit

Sidious wins.

Eh, Luke just needs a more focused argument. There are tons and tons of cases to be made.

Also, notice that second battle image between DE Luke and DE Sidious. Sidious has pushed Luke back against a wall, and is using one hand on his lightsaber, where Luke is using two.

Formatting on KMC is even shitter than Luke without Leia's amp.

Doesn't Luke self-train in Ben Kenobi's hut between ESB and ROTJ, or is that just in Canon?

I'm going to gloss over the Vader vs. Sidious section because I don't think it's very relevant. If there are any particular points that you think are important, please feel free to let me know.

Two that I would like to go over:

1. "The duel was very close" - really?

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11128/111282615/5395362-luke+beats+sidious.png

That one shot where Palpatine makes Luke struggle a bit looks just as significant as when Maul made Palpatine "struggle" in TCW. Of course, you can argue that the comic writers were just being lazy and made an epic duel look really quick because they were running out of ink...but it seems pretty clear that Luke won with a noticeable gap.

2. "Luke was benefitting from the DS nexus too!"

There's no comparison between an amateur Luke half-tapping into the dark side (which may or may not have even helped him) and Palpatine, the dark lord of the sith, using it. This is especially the case as Palpatine specifically calls Luke foolish for confronting him on Byss!

Just so you don't miss it, there are four parts above to my response, with some other posters making posts in-between.

Part 1: Luke's duel with Sidious / Luke's potential
Part 2: Luke's duel with Sidious / Luke's potential
Part 3 (brief): How close the duel was and Byss as a nexus
Part 4 (somewhat brief): feats

Have briefly skimmed over the arguments.

Don't wanna interrupt but, DE Luke was having his potential (twice of ROTJ Sidious, so perhaps close to or greater than DE Sidious) unlocked. So in that specific instance he was aided by an external factor that unlocked force potential into actualised power. This is perhaps similar to how Mortis unlocked Anakin's true potential which allowed him to ragdoll the children simultaneously. So Luke's win is sort of irrelevant.

This "Luke vs Abeloth" and "Luke not having Anakin's potential" needs to be debunked soon.

In fact, if anything, the whole "Abeloth" arc, only reinforces Luke's potential being comparable to Anakin's.

Will have a response up sometime soon

Originally posted by samappo

Don't wanna interrupt Then don't do it lol

Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
In fact, if anything, the whole "Abeloth" arc, only reinforces Luke's potential being comparable to Anakin's.

Comparable and the same are two different words.

Anakin is the chosen one. He was conceived by the force, and only he was destined to replace the father. Luke is comparable, but not the chosen one.

That's a Destiny related line that has nothing to do with overall combat formidability. Luke is superior than his burnt up father.

That's a straw man. We are talking about force potential, not actualised power.

Originally posted by samappo
That's a straw man. We are talking about force potential, not actualised power. You should deal in actual power. Vader's superior force power and dueling skills netted him an L to Kenobi. I don't care what you're capable of I care more about what you do in the heat of fair combat.

Stop interrupting the debate, both of you

Originally posted by Azronger
Stop interrupting the debate, both of you Accept my Kelvin trilogy vs. Ot trilogy debate.

Never saw Star Trek: Beyond so no

Originally posted by Azronger
Never saw Star Trek: Beyond so no So when will you watch it ? Is a week enough time so we can begin the following week.

Also to further clarify that Byss was benefiting Palpatine more (credit to a poster who can reveal themselves if they want to):

Yeah nobody denies Byss benefitted Palpatine lol. I'll have a response up in a few days

It clearly benefits him more than it did Luke, but whatever.

Yeah, those refer to when Luke came to Byss and was still a full lightsider lol. Out of context, much?