Registered: Jun 2016
Location: The Throne of the Sheevites
God-Emperor Sheev Wankatine (Azronger) vs Godmaster Luke Skystomper (The Ellimist)
Leia Organa Solo and her unborn son were the sole witnesses to the greatest battle in history.
She saw only a whirlwind as they swept through the room, their path tearing from one end of the room to the other, across the bulkheads, around the deck and through the air. They whirled and cut and parried and counterattacked faster than the eye could see, transforming them into a blur of sound and fury, their brilliant weapons angry flickers of light in the destroyed throne room. She caught the barest of glimpses of their struggle, heard the merest whispers of the words they exchanged—words meant for the ears of Masters alone.
Though many thought her powerful—and indeed she was—she was a mere neophyte compared to these two mighty titans; she had once read that on many world the Jedi and the Sith were revered as gods. She knew now why this was so; she saw the awesome and terrible power that they could wield. For all her own potential in the Unifying Force—The Living Force—The Universal Force—for all her own potential, there was little more she could do than take refuge beneath the Galactic Emperor’s overturned throne.
While around her, the test of wills raged.
Flash! as they turned in the air, Flash! went their sabres there. Never before and never again in all of history had there been or would there be a battle such as this. Even now—as they flashed and turned and struck and clashed—echoes of their struggle could be felt throughout the universe. They were opposing divinities, as different as night and day.
There was Palpatine the Undying, the great Galactic Emperor, the manifestation of the dark side of the Force, in all his abysmal glory, all his great and terrible majesty. He was a void of hunger and narcissism, a voracious abyss that would never be satisfied until he had consumed all things and plunged the universe into eternal darkness. He had embraced the dark side even before he was born, he basked in its cold abyss. The peoples of the galaxy had become complacent in the light of the Jedi’s vigil, and he had plunged them into darkness.
He had spent decades devoted to meditation and study, immersing himself in the secrets and lore of a thousand worlds and a thousand cults, secluded in his monasteries and libraries. He had made pilgrimages to Korriban, to Dromund Kaas, to Ziost, to Had Abaddon, to Arkania, to Apollyon, to Cos. He had mastered the great power in all its guises—the Force, the sublime Eternity, the All, the Great Unity, the Tyia, the Quwa Akhrín, the White Current—and in all its traditions—the Sith Lords, the Jedi Knights, the Krath Society, the Nightsisters of Dathomir, the Heresiarch Congregation, the Shamans of the Jarvashqiine, the Intisharim. He had learned the estoteric martial arts of Teräs Käsi and Yad Hadíd; he had mastered the forms and styles of the lightsabre. He knew the secrets of Quey’tek and the Doppelgänger, Malacia and Morichro, Mechu-deru and Lilakrin, and countless more. He was deeply immersed in the thousands of years of traditions from thousands of cults and sects. He was a specter of the past—a phantom menace—the revenge of the Sith.
There was Luke Skywalker, the simple farmboy from a backwater desert world, the guardian of the light side of the Force, with all his awe-inspiring power at its fullest. He was a beacon of honesty and generosity, willing to lay down his own life to save those of his friends. He had come from a planet with two suns into a galaxy lost in darkness, bringing with him a new hope for freedom. He had destroyed the Death Star and saved the brave Rebellion against the tyrannical rule of the evil Empire; he had redeemed the soul of the mighty Dark Lord of the Sith and shattered the Emperor’s iron grip on the galaxy. The peoples of the galaxy had been drowning in the eternal darkness of the Sith’s reign, and he had brought them light.
He had only learned of the Force as a young man; his formal training had been cut short by the deaths of both of his Masters. He had found few scraps of the lost traditions of the Jedi Knights; he had searched in vain for the knowledge of that noble order whose light the Dark Lord of the Sith had tried to extinguish. He had found little in the empty halls of the Jedi Temple and the wreck of the Chu’unthor, never even been to the few abandoned praxeums and libraries that still remained. He had not been instructed in the philosophies of the Jedi scribes, nor did he know their formalized techniques and disciplines and rubrics; he wielded his power in an unconscious and completely instinctive way. He did not speak High Galactic, had not been trained in the ways of the Jedi Knight’s blade; he knew none of the forms, only using the Force to guide his hand. He did not know the histories and traditions of the cults of the Force that the Sith Lords and their Empire had eradicated. He had few ties to the history of the Jedi and their Order, fewer still to the countless other traditions and cults and sects. He was a vision of the future—a new hope—the return of the Jedi.
The one could never tolerate the existence of the other.
The Emperor had sought to convert the humble farmboy, to turn him to the dark side of the Force; not even his rejection of the dark side could turn the Sith Lord’s thougts away from him. The Sith Lord could not abide the Jedi Knight, could not simply destroy him. He needed to turn him, to destroy his will, to dominate his very soul. He needed to break him, to tear him apart and remake him in his own image. For his great weakness was his narcissism, his malignant and twisted self-love. To be rejected, to be challenged, to be defeated was unthinkable.
The humble farmboy had sought to defeat the darkness within his father, and within the malevolent Emperor who had seduced him and destroyed the goodness in him, the Emperor who was full of lies and was the father of lies. He had chosen to die rather than to become like him; yet he knew that he alone could ever hope to challenge the great and terrible Dark Lord of the Sith. He had risked everything to learn the secrets of the Sith, to gain from his enemy the strength he needed to destroy him forever. To stand by, to look on, to allow his existence was intolerable.
And so they were, Palpatine the Undying and Luke Skywalker, the twin and opposing demigods. The swirl of their light and darkness was terrifying, a river of power that threatened to sweep all around it. Luke’s vast courage could never hope to overcome the Emperor’s vast power; yet the Emperor’s egotistical self-love could never hope to match Luke’s altruistic self-sacrifice. They battled with more than just their lightsabres; they battled with their whole selves, mind, body, and soul. It was a battle between the Sith Lord who ruled and the Jedi Knight who served; the narcissist who exploited and abused and the philanthropist who defended and comforted; the darkness and that chilled and the light that warmed; the abyss that consumed and the love that begot. It was a battle between the darkest evil and the purest good.
Waves of power and emotion poured off of the peerless antagonists, sending shudders through the vast warship from stem to stern. The overwhelming atmosphere of the battle struck the crew almost instantly; some collapsed at their battle stations, insensate and traumatized, while others fell dead where they stood. All throughout the galaxy those who were sensitive to the Force could feel the violence of the clash of titans, could feel the intensity of the test of wills.
And none felt it more deeply than did Leia Organa Solo and her unborn son. They were immersed within the sound and the fury; there, in that room, they peered into the depths of the souls of both the Dark Lord of the Sith and Grand Master of the Jedi. And as they battled, Luke Skywalker knew that should he fail, both his sister and her child would be left defenceless and in the clutches of Palpatine the Undying.
The Test of Wills, Chapter 29
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Both characters in their prime: Sidious as of Dark Empire II, Luke as of Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse
Legends only, no Canon
No prep, random encounter
Morals off, bloodlusted but rational
Battle takes place on Mortis, but the nexus will not amplify either combatant
I'm going to start with a shorter outline because I suspect things will rapidly expand from here and you can request more evidence/elaboration where necessary.
Luke already beat Sidious in a duel in Dark Empire. His only help was Leia unlocking some of his potential with BM. I think it's intuitive and fairly reasonable to say that 30+ years of training unlocks more potential than an untrained Leia's battle meditation. BM on individual fighters hasn't been described to be that absurdly strong, even from masters in the art, and it's suggested that Luke didn't really notice that he was being amped. Given that Luke makes several pretty noticeable jumps in power from DE, I think it's safe to say he's surpassed Sidious in sabers by a noticeable amount.
If there isn't a large disparity in Force power, fighters can usually resist one another's Force attacks in fair circumstances and so the battle turns to sabers, where Luke wins.
It's pretty indisputable that Luke's potential far outstrips Palpatine's. Then on top of that we know that 1) he's had several decades to grow in power, but isn't at the point where even Force users with less potential than him start to decline, 2) he is ridiculously prodigious and matched Vader in sabers with like 1.5 years of training (and it's stated in Shadows of Mindor like 6 months after Endor that he's already stronger than Vader in the Force). So it's difficult to imagine how he's not above Palpatine by FotJ.
There are multiple sources which suggest Luke regularly holds back his power. Jaina says in LotF (let me know which sources I'm giving you're unfamiliar with so I can cite them) that she doesn't know half of what Luke can do, and Luke in another novel speculates about how he could tear up an attacking pirate fleet but won't because the dark side or whatever. But he won't hold back at all against Palpatine. This is just to guard against "he struggled against Lumiya" arguments or whatever.
Luke has better TK feats (dovin basals, destroying Vader's fortress, pinning Caedus to his chair, then ragdolling Caedus through his starfighter).
Luke has more experience fighting enemies on his level in actual combat while Palpatine only ever really fought Yoda and Mace Windu like several decades ago. Indeed, when it is necessary Luke regularly hits above his batting range (.i.e. vs. Abeloth's avatars).
Given Luke's advantages in accolades + powerscaling + narrative intent + beating Palpatine before, you'd need to establish a pretty solid set of superior feats on Sidious's end, and I doubt you can.
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Registered: Jun 2016
Location: The Throne of the Sheevites
All you have here is pretty much speculation. Yes, you might think it is "intuitive," "fairly reasonable" and "safe to say" that Luke unlocked more of his potential and surpassed Sidious on his own, but "I think" is not evidence. I could just as well play the same game and retort that it isn't a reasonable assertion (I'm not actually making that claim for the record, so don't try to shift the burden of proof on me; I was just demonstrating how inneffective your current argument is). Provide substantial proof for your case; claims made without evidence can be dismissed wihout evidence.
Outside of circumstantial showings, what does Luke have to top Sheev? Sheev already absolutely curbstomped Luke in their first fight, and has feats like matching evenly with Yoda and an amped Mace Windu, canonically the two best Jedi duelists ever up to that point in history, only behind Anakin. I haven't seen anything from Vader or Caedus or anyone else Luke fought that'd suggest they're up to par with the guys Palpatine squared off against.
Wasn't gonna go for nut shots; don't worry.
How big were the dovin basals and Bast Castle? Unless you give me a specific size, those feats are unquantifiable. Same with Caedus - provide proof for why ragdolling that guy is impressive. Until then, I'm not seeing how any of them match up to telekinetically manipulating a nineteen-kilometer-long Super Star Destroyer (while also multitasking with other Force powers which I may get into later depending on how this debate goes):
Years before, one of a number of Super Star Destroyers commissioned by the Emperor had disappeared. In fact, as a demonstration of Palpatine's dark side powers, he had buried the Lusankya at the edge of Imperial City.
The Official Star Wars Fact File #9
Once completed, the Emperor himself used the dark side of the Force to hide the Lusankya beneath the surface of Coruscant's cityscape.
An Expanded Universe Starship from Enemy Lines II: Rebel Stand (Book 12 of Star Wars: The New Jedi Order)
Q: In the Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide, under the Sith Battleship description it states that Exar Kun recovered his ship the ‘Corsair’ in the same way Darth Nihilus recovered the ‘Ravager’ on Malachor V. Does this mean that Exar Kun summoned the ship via the Force from the depths of the Massassi Temple of Sacrifice?
Peña: That said, looking over the text, it appears to me that a direct analogy with the Ravager and that your interpretation is essentially correct. (Another example, though in reverse, is Emperor Palpatine using the Force to bury the Lusankya, in plain sight, beneath the surface of the planet Coruscant.)
Abel G. Peña Messenger Question
And when Palpatine fought Mace and Yoda, he hadn't fought anyone on his level for 13 years either and seemed to be doing pretty well... no offence, but dumb argument, tbh. Experience rarely, if ever, matters in a fight between master-level Force users.
If he has advantages in any of those areas, you sure haven't provided proof of them yet.
Dec 23rd, 2017 04:00 PM
