Nihilus vs. Palpatine.

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The Merchant
ROTS Palpatine is chilling on Nar Shadaa, when suddenly Nihilus barges in his room! Who wins?

SunRazer
Another one? Palpatine kills him.

The Ellimist
Palpatine oneshots, given that he's canonically the most powerful Sith Lord in galactic history by TPM, before experiencing an astronomical power increase on Plagueis's death.

Nihilus's drain isn't necessarily special - Palpatine knew drain even as an apprentice.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by The Merchant
ROTS Palpatine is chilling on Nar Shadaa, when suddenly Nihilus barges in his room! Who wins?

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/nihilus_zpsrjcbdmub.png

http://i.imgur.com/Vc7T8ZN.jpg

To quote a well-known sayer of words, "do the math."

darthbane77
Nihilus drains

The_Tempest
Originally posted by The_Tempest
http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/nihilus_zpsrjcbdmub.png

http://i.imgur.com/Vc7T8ZN.jpg

To quote a well-known sayer of words, "do the math."

Originally posted by darthbane77
Nihilus drains

A veritable Fields medalist, you are.

darthbane77
Originally posted by The_Tempest
A veritable Fields medalist, you are. Nihilus' drain has no defense against it, it's not normal drain, this has been confirmed, and nothing disproves the claim. Sidious has no defense against against the Force Wound Drain employed by Nihilus. Plus, Sidious has never demonstrated the ability to casually drain the life from an entire planet nigh-instantly.

Nihilus is out of ROTS Sheev's league.

LordOfTheLight
Palpatine, easily.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by darthbane77
Nihilus' drain has no defense against it, it's not normal drain, this has been confirmed, and nothing disproves the claim.

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/558/387/cdf.jpg

Originally posted by darthbane77
Sidious has no defense against against the Force Wound Drain employed by Nihilus.

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/558/387/cdf.jpg

Originally posted by darthbane77
Plus, Sidious has never demonstrated the ability to casually drain the life from an entire planet nigh-instantly.

He's only more powerful than someone who can, though.

Originally posted by darthbane77
Nihilus is out of ROTS Sheev's league.

Indeed. To labor your metaphor, Sidious would be in the MLB whereas Nihilus is probably off somewhere in Kansas swinging a bat around in his church intramural league.

The Merchant
Traya says Nihilus drain has no defense=True fax.

Traya says Nihilus prime will only rival some Ancient Sith=BS.

Traya implies Nihilus and co. Are but shadows of the true Sith=also BS.

SunRazer
Traya also says Nihilus can't consume all life yet. She also says that he uses the same technique as the assassins, who use their powers on the Exile and co. just fine but obviously don't win.

Nihilus hasn't ever shown Drain against a more powerful opponent and even against lesser enemies he seems to like stunning his opponents before draining them, which is odd if he can just do it and kill them.

Katarr is a blatantly circumstantial feat given that he's been put in similar situations (TCSWE's various other planets, Telos IV) and failed to replicate it. As we don't know the circumstances leading up to Katarr other than the fact that it was a surprise attack, it's a logical deduction to assume that he benefitted from circumstances not afforded to him whenever he attacked another planet. Or indeed, in a random versus scenario. My guess is substantial time and preparation.

Azronger
Last time Merchant made a RotS Sheev vs ancient Sith thread, every Vitidiot ended up having their pussies wet clamoring to a supposedly ground-breaking revelation of how Sheev sucks and the ancients shall reign paramount once more. In 30 minutes, said revelation had been twisted in Sheev's favor and ended up backfiring spectacularly, raising Sheev's ranking near-universally to the amusing result of AP trying to save face with its usually moronic vomit that somehow passes as an argument these days.

I wonder if something similar will happen this time as well. History is prone to repeat itself.

The Ellimist
Originally posted by Azronger
Last time Merchant made a RotS Sheev vs ancient Sith thread, every Vitidiot ended up having their pussies wet clamoring to a supposedly ground-breaking revelation of how Sheev sucks and the ancients shall reign paramount once more. In 30 minutes, said revelation had been twisted in Sheev's favor and ended up backfiring spectacularly, raising Sheev's ranking near-universally to the amusing result of AP trying to save face with its usually moronic vomit that somehow passes as an argument these days.

I wonder if something similar will happen this time as well. History is prone to repeat itself.

Link?

The Merchant
I think it my Marka Ragnos vs. Palpatine thread.

Azronger
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Link?

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f86/t647232.html

The Ellimist
From the link -

AP is wanking how the ancient sith spirits were beating up Palpatine:

Originally posted by AncientPower
Funny how Palpatine was utterly overwhelmed by Ragnos and a few other, lesser spirits and nearly died. Requiring a bacta tank to heal himself no less.

*Azronger turns the feat around and notes that a weakened Sheev basically came close to solo'ing Korriban*

AP suddenly thinks his own feat is meaningless:

Originally posted by AncientPower
We have no idea how many spirits even attacked him though.

LMFAOLMFAO

darthbane77
Originally posted by SunRazer
Traya also says Nihilus can't consume all life yet. She also says that he uses the same technique as the assassins, who use their powers on the Exile and co. just fine but obviously don't win.

Nihilus hasn't ever shown Drain against a more powerful opponent and even against lesser enemies he seems to like stunning his opponents before draining them, which is odd if he can just do it and kill them.

Katarr is a blatantly circumstantial feat given that he's been put in similar situations (TCSWE's various other planets, Telos IV) and failed to replicate it. As we don't know the circumstances leading up to Katarr other than the fact that it was a surprise attack, it's a logical deduction to assume that he benefitted from circumstances not afforded to him whenever he attacked another planet. Or indeed, in a random versus scenario. My guess is substantial time and preparation. Not really, given Nihilus did the same thing he did on Katarr to several other planets. He's stated as having consumed more than one planet, not just Katarr. In fact, iirc, the phrase "web or worlds" was used at one point to describe Nihilus' eating habits. I'll have ti find the specific quote for that though.

AncientPower
Az has poor memory again. Sheev can army bust zombies with blasters and gets nearly killed doing it. But nah it's an uber feat. thumb up

AncientPower
I like how Nihilus searching for the supposed Jedi on Telos IV and realising that there aren't any when the Exile tells him, equates to an argument that he needs prep and shit. But okay.

Azronger
Originally posted by The Ellimist
From the link -

AP is wanking how the ancient sith spirits were beating up Palpatine:



*Azronger turns the feat around and notes that a weakened Sheev basically came close to solo'ing Korriban*

AP suddenly thinks his own feat is meaningless:



LMFAOLMFAO

Oh shit lol never noticed that. What an embarrassment lmao.

The Ellimist
Originally posted by AncientPower
Funny how Palpatine was utterly overwhelmed by Ragnos and a few other, lesser spirits and nearly died. Requiring a bacta tank to heal himself no less.

Originally posted by AncientPower
He hasn't even proven Sidious fought those spirits.

confused

The_Tempest
Originally posted by The_Tempest
http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/558/387/cdf.jpg



http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/558/387/cdf.jpg



He's only more powerful than someone who can, though.



Indeed. To labor your metaphor, Sidious would be in the MLB whereas Nihilus is probably off somewhere in Kansas swinging a bat around in his church intramural league.

^ Darthbane, chop, chop!

Azronger
DB77, as one of the leading members of the Vitidiot cause, do you have something to shit on Sheev with, so that we could turn it around and panegyrize His Imperial Majesty further?

SunRazer
Originally posted by darthbane77
Not really, given Nihilus did the same thing he did on Katarr to several other planets. He's stated as having consumed more than one planet, not just Katarr. In fact, iirc, the phrase "web or worlds" was used at one point to describe Nihilus' eating habits. I'll have ti find the specific quote for that though.

Uh-huh, yeah, these other worlds which according to TCSWE, he drained only after attacking them with orbital bombardment. So not like Katarr at all, unless you agree that he used his ships to attack it first.

AncientPower
Originally posted by The Ellimist
confused

The spirits in reference are actual dark lords, he was trying to claim it was thousands of lesser Sith spirits. But in fact it was literally just the Sith summoning the same Force zombies that Kun fought prior to Nadd collapsing a tomb on him.

Azronger
Originally posted by The Ellimist
confused

laughing

The Ellimist
Originally posted by AncientPower
The spirits in reference are actual dark lords, he was trying to claim it was thousands of lesser Sith spirits. But in fact it was literally just the Sith summoning the same Force zombies that Kun fought prior to Nadd collapsing a tomb on him.

Citation needed that they're merely "Force zombies".

It seems pretty clear to me:

- Sidious arrives on Korriban around ANH, fights basically everyone on Korriban, almost dies.
- Sidious arrives on Korriban in EE, basically all the spirits are gone and those who remain are deferential and apparently afraid of Sidious.

Explanations:

1. The Sith spirits just happen to fade in the two or so decades between ANH and EE, by sheer coincidence, after having stayed there for thousands of years, and for some reason those that remain are the weaker ones.

2. Sidious killed almost all of them and the few survivors are too scared to resist him.

Explanation 2 is far more logical given the evidence; explanation 1 is utterly manufactured.

Azronger
Put it on ignore already, Ell, Jesus Christ lol

The Merchant
So Nihilus dies.

AncientPower
That isn't what happens though, rofl. He demands knowledge from the dark lords and he gets 'cowed' in return. He almost dies, has to be rescued by Droga and is placed in a bacta tank to recover.

The rest of your argument is quite irrelevant.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by The Merchant
So Nihilus dies.

As utterly and memetically as Vitiate.

Azronger
Indeed he does. Still waiting for that Sheev lowballing so we could reverse it to make this thread worthwhile.

darthbane77
Originally posted by The_Tempest
http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/558/387/cdf.jpg



http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/558/387/cdf.jpg



He's only more powerful than someone who can, though.



Indeed. To labor your metaphor, Sidious would be in the MLB whereas Nihilus is probably off somewhere in Kansas swinging a bat around in his church intramural league. I'm getting to it. I don't personally have all the quotes I need, and my buddy who does have them isn't online right now. As soon as I get the quotes I don't already from him, I'll respond.

The Ellimist
Originally posted by AncientPower
That isn't what happens though, rofl. He demands knowledge from the dark lords and he gets 'cowed' in return. He almost dies, has to be rescued by Droga and is placed in a bacta tank to recover.

The rest of your argument is quite irrelevant.

But you still haven't explained why almost all the spirits are gone and those who remain are afraid of him in EE...

Thousands attacked him the first time, only a few scared ones are left the second time, it's pretty obvious that he killed them all, lol.

darthbane77
Originally posted by SunRazer
Uh-huh, yeah, these other worlds which according to TCSWE, he drained only after attacking them with orbital bombardment. So not like Katarr at all, unless you agree that he used his ships to attack it first. The bombardment argument has been debunked, but as I said in the above comment I made, I don't have all the quotes I need. So I'll get back to this as soon as I can.

AncientPower
There's nothing claiming there were thousands of lesser Sith spirits attacking him nor is there anything claiming they were gone the second time around. It's literally just Az reaching again.

SunRazer
Originally posted by darthbane77
The bombardment argument has been debunked, but as I said in the above comment I made, I don't have all the quotes I need. So I'll get back to this as soon as I can.

Debunked where? The only time we hear about the other planets is in TCSWE, which is where it's explicitly said that he fed on planets that he had bombarded.

The idea of bombarding Katarr was the only one in dispute, but whatever you make of it, it's clearly not something he's replicated again, which to me suggests circumstantial aid.

AncientPower
It says he blasted them, not bombarded, rofl. That could be interpreted a thousand way.

slayne
Originally posted by SunRazer
She also says that he uses the same technique as the assassins, who use their powers on the Exile and co. just fine but obviously don't win.
The Exile's a wound. It isn't really a surprise that they'd lose the fight if they tried draining her, lol.

Which isn't reason in the slightest to suspect that he'd be incapable of successfully doing so. As made blatantly clear by Traya and his Assassins, Drain (Nihilus' variant, at least) does work on opponents more powerful than the user - and Nihilus, being infinitely more proficient in the technique than his underlings, would be no exception here.

Take a look at Sion, who I'm sure we can all agree is a lesser enemy. Nihilus didn't waste any time whatsoever trying to stun him; he unleashed everything he had as soon as he took a step forward to attack - drain, lightning, telekinesis, etc. He probably stunned Surik for reasons pertaining to the plot, honestly.

The entire Telos sequence can easily be written off as PIS, and it'd be great if you could provide the TCSWE quote which says he can't replicate what he did at Katarr.

OT: Sidious wins.

The Ellimist
Originally posted by AncientPower
There's nothing claiming there were thousands of lesser Sith spirits attacking him

There were thousands of them on Korriban and they're supposed to attack intruders, sooo...



But they are gone, you can see it...

The Korriban sith try to attack Palpatine the first time, then the second time only a few remain and they're scared of him. It's not too difficult to connect the dots.

Azronger
So DB77, if Nihilus' drain can't be resisted, you think he one-shots Vitiate too?

darthbane77
Originally posted by SunRazer
Debunked where? The only time we hear about the other planets is in TCSWE, which is where it's explicitly said that he fed on planets that he had bombarded.

The idea of bombarding Katarr was the only one in dispute, but whatever you make of it, it's clearly not something he's replicated again, which to me suggests circumstantial aid. By my friend Miko, in a different forum. I asked him for his thread about it, and I'll share what he gives me when he gives it to me. If it turns out I'm wrong about it, then I'll concede, but I don't think I am.

Azronger
Also:

Originally posted by Azronger
Put it on ignore already, Ell, Jesus Christ lol

darthbane77
Originally posted by Azronger
So DB77, if Nihilus' drain can't be resisted, you think he one-shots Vitiate too? Depends on whether or not Vitiate is a Force Wound. There's evidence to support that he is one, but it's not explicitly confirmed. If he IS one, a Force Wound can't drain another Force Wound, so no, I'd say he can't one-shot Vitiate. If Vitiate is NOT a Force Wound, then yes, Nihilus very well could be capable of draining Vitiate. Nihilus is unique in that he doesn't need to be more powerful than his opponent in order to win, all he needs to do is use his unblockable drain, and it's game over.

SunRazer
Originally posted by darthbane77
By my friend Miko, in a different forum. I asked him for his thread about it, and I'll share what he gives me when he gives it to me. If it turns out I'm wrong about it, then I'll concede, but I don't think I am.

Miko Hacksaw? I debated him on this and he just has a completely different interpretation of Nihilus altogether. He was particularly obsessed with this "Force Hunger" thing that I've not seen anyone else debate for a long time.

But sure, I'll wait for it.

AncientPower
Originally posted by The Ellimist
There were thousands of them on Korriban and they're supposed to attack intruders, sooo...



But they are gone, you can see it...

The Korriban sith try to attack Palpatine the first time, then the second time only a few remain and they're scared of him. It's not too difficult to connect the dots.

1.It's a general statement about cross-era Korriban, not one specific time. One can easily claim the same sh!t about anyone else who went to Korriban.

2.The very quote he uses states they are too weak to attack directly so they reanimate the dead. In other words zombies with blasters.

3.Meetra Surik went there and those spirits summoned numerous Hssiss which are far more dangerous than Force zombies and she cleared the Valley, the Academy and Ludo Kressh's previously undiscovered tomb which had even more.

Azronger
Even if Nihilus' drain has no defence, DB77, how does that prove it's an insta-kill? It may very well take a while to completely drain someone as powerful as Palpatine.

Please don't cite Traya being insta-drained for the love of Sheev

darthbane77
Originally posted by SunRazer
Miko Hacksaw? I debated him on this and he just has a completely different interpretation of Nihilus altogether. He was particularly obsessed with this "Force Hunger" thing that I've not seen anyone else debate for a long time.

But sure, I'll wait for it. Yep, that's him. Nihilus is somewhat of an area of focus for him.

I appreciate your patience.

darthbane77
Originally posted by Azronger
Even if Nihilus' drain has no defence, DB77, how does that prove it's an insta-kill? It may very well take a while to completely drain someone as powerful as Palpatine.

Please don't cite Traya being insta-drained for the love of Sheev

He can drain planets with a thought

"As Nihilus greedy consumes entire planets life energies, the dark side macerates him even faster."

―Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

Generally, in fiction, when a character does something with a thought, it's also done at the speed of that thought. Not a rule, but a general observation. As for quotes, those are among the ones I don't actually have on hand. So I'll get back to you when I get back to SunRazer and Tempest.

SunRazer
Originally posted by slayne
The Exile's a wound. It isn't really a surprise that they'd lose the fight if they tried draining her, lol.

No source states that Wounds are immune to Drain in general. Kreia Drains you fine in the Council Chambers if you play the DS version. KotORCG elaborates on the Exile being immune to Nihilus' powers specifically because she was his polar opposite, not just because she was any old Wound. And the Assassins were also draining your companions, not just you. They still lost.



I just said Nihilus hasn't shown Drain against more powerful opponents, not that it doesn't work. The Assassins are proof that it does. I've only ever said it doesn't give them an instant win against more powerful opponents, which you seem to agree with given that you think Sidious wins this fight. I suspect that Nihilus' Drain against someone noticeably more powerful than himself would just turn out like the Assassin's Drain on most chars, or at best something like Krayt on Abeloth.



Well, the actual game script just has him attacking Sion with telekinesis. Drain was thrown in by one modder (DarthStony, I think it was), and I'm not sure why (there's been a variety of different interpretations of the scene from different mods).

Surik's not the only one he stunned. He stunned Traya with telekinesis first before draining her. That's a pretty strong precedent.



Why would Telos be PIS? It serves no further purpose in the rest of the story. You could destroy it without any consequence; if anything, it'd just make Nihilus look more intimidating since you actually see one of these godlike feats on-screen, as opposed to hearsay of questionable reliability.

The idea that he can't replicate what he did at Katarr is my own deduction. What TCSWE says is this:



We've got Katarr, which has ambiguous circumstances, Telos, where we see him failing to do the same thing with our own eyes despite being given ample time, and the other planets mentioned in TCSWE, which he drained after bombarding them from orbit.

So Katarr is a lone case out of several. You'd understand my skepticism about whether or not he can just pull off that feat whenever he wants.

Azronger
Originally posted by darthbane77
He can drain planets with a thought

"As Nihilus greedy consumes entire planets life energies, the dark side macerates him even faster."

―Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

Generally, in fiction, when a character does something with a thought, it's also done at the speed of that thought. Not a rule, but a general observation. As for quotes, those are among the ones I don't actually have on hand. So I'll get back to you when I get back to SunRazer and Tempest.

Yes, and the inhabitants of Katarr blatantly aren't as powerful as Sheev, even collectively. So I ask again:

Originally posted by Azronger
Even if Nihilus' drain has no defence, DB77, how does that prove it's an insta-kill? It may very well take a while to completely drain someone as powerful as Palpatine.

Please don't cite Traya being insta-drained for the love of Sheev

The Ellimist
Still waiting on that quote that proves the ancient sith were too weak to attack Palpatine. Not that this in any way refutes the fact that they're apparently almost all dead and deferential to him by EE.

AncientPower
The entire point of the conversation you have with Nihilus is that Traya tricked Nihilus into believing Telos IV was a gathering place for Jedi. He tries searching for Jedi the whole time prior and then the Exile reveals to him that there are no Jedi, only a dead world. That was Traya's entire plan. As soon as Nihilus realises this he rages and attacks the Exile. IIRC even Tobin and Marr says that as soon as he realises this, he'll destroy Citadel Station and the planet below, feeding on the mass death.

Interpreting that as anything else is pretty terrible.

darthbane77
Originally posted by Azronger
Yes, and the inhabitants of Katarr blatantly aren't as powerful as Sheev, even collectively. So I ask again: Remind me to get to this later, when I have all my quotes gathered. I've been busy, and will continue to be busy for the next couple days, and I don't wanna lose track of this convo.

AncientPower
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Still waiting on that quote that proves the ancient sith were too weak to attack Palpatine. Not that this in any way refutes the fact that they're apparently almost all dead and deferential to him by EE.

Azronger
@DB77

What quotes? Yes, I know the quote saying Nihilus can drain worlds with a thought; I know Kreia says there's no defence etc. I'm just asking for reasons why draining Katarr is equivalent or greater than draining Sheev?

darthbane77
Originally posted by Azronger
@DB77

What quotes? Yes, I know the quote saying Nihilus can drain worlds with a thought; I know Kreia says there's no defence etc. I'm just asking for reasons why draining Katarr is equivalent or greater than draining Sheev? I'm not saying it is, necessarily. But Nihilus has MULTIPLE worlds worth of power in him. Personally, I feel anyone with even a single world's worth of power is gonna be able to at least give Sidious some level of pause.

Anyway, I'll get back to this later. I've been in four debates at once for at least the passed hour or so, and my mind is getting fried. I'll come back when I'm fresh.

The Merchant
Palpatine>Brakiss>Star activity>Draining the population of a planet. This us backed up by Palp "shaking stars and causing flares" and "changing orbits of star systems"

SunRazer
Originally posted by darthbane77
He can drain planets with a thought

"As Nihilus greedy consumes entire planets life energies, the dark side macerates him even faster."

―Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

Generally, in fiction, when a character does something with a thought, it's also done at the speed of that thought. Not a rule, but a general observation. As for quotes, those are among the ones I don't actually have on hand. So I'll get back to you when I get back to SunRazer and Tempest.

You seem to have quoted the wrong thing, lol. This isn't the quote saying he consumes entire worlds with a thought.

However, given your rationale of taking feats or "direct showings of a character's abilities" over statements if there's a contradiction, surely you would ignore this statement after the planets Nihilus attacks in TCSWE and Telos IV in KotOR II blatantly show that he can't consume entire planets with a thought?

AncientPower
Originally posted by AncientPower
The entire point of the conversation you have with Nihilus is that Traya tricked Nihilus into believing Telos IV was a gathering place for Jedi. He tries searching for Jedi the whole time prior and then the Exile reveals to him that there are no Jedi, only a dead world. That was Traya's entire plan. As soon as Nihilus realises this he rages and attacks the Exile. IIRC even Tobin and Marr says that as soon as he realises this, he'll destroy Citadel Station and the planet below, feeding on the mass death.

Interpreting that as anything else is pretty terrible.

Azronger
Originally posted by darthbane77
I'm not saying it is, necessarily. But Nihilus has MULTIPLE worlds worth of power in him. Personally, I feel anyone with even a single world's worth of power is gonna be able to at least give Sidious some level of pause.

Anyway, I'll get back to this later. I've been in four debates at once for at least the passed hour or so, and my mind is getting fried. I'll come back when I'm fresh.

Even PoD Bane has more than a planet's worth of power according to the Huntress. You really wanna go down this route?

The Ellimist
Originally posted by AncientPower


So the Exile fought more powerful creatures but we're just gonna assume they summoned weaker zombies to fight Palpatine? Lol OK.

darthbane77
Originally posted by Azronger
Even PoD Bane has more than a planet's worth of power according to the Huntress. You really wanna go down this route? Quote for that?

The Merchant
Cognus saw Ambrias destruction but claims Bane is the most powerful Dark Side source she's sensed. This actually fits well witg his accolades of being the strongest Sith in history up to his time.

SunRazer
@AP - If he can consume entire planets with a thought (or really, just on a whim), then surely he'd do just that as soon as the Exile reveals that Kreia has lied to him.

For that matter, he doesn't really need to search for the Jedi anyway. If he could just consume the planet anyway, given his indiscriminate disregard for life he'd just do it and he'd be able to tell if there were Jedi or not based on what he felt he was feeding upon. Visas herself states that Nihilus will feed on Telos even if there aren't any Jedi, to sate himself for a time.

The surprise would surely only be momentary. There's no reason for him to spend all that time using Force Sense on the world instead of just gobbling it up and moving on.

None of this changes my position, and none of them address his use of orbital bombardment per TCSWE, which accounts for the vast majority of planets he's drained.

The Merchant
Nihilus needing to destroy Citadel Station somewhat implies his drain on a large scale can't be performed on a whim.

SunRazer
Precisely. The idea that it's some effortless, breezy thing for him to consume entire planetful populations is a notion only supported in hyperbolic text. There's zero physical precedent for it, and in fact considerable evidence for the opposite.

AncientPower
I'm not saying it's effortless but what you're using isn't a valid indication otherwise.

The Merchant
Well it's possible he could destroy the Citadel via TK.

Stigma
I'm gonna go with Sidious by virtue of him being better than N.

lazybones
I'm slightly confused as to why the 'blast into ruins' quote from TCSWE is interpreted as meaning orbital bombardment. I mean, aside from TCSWE being a source riddled with errors in regards to KotOR, such as suggesting that Kreia 'fled' an unconscious Exile on Dantooine, it simply isn't possible or practical. According to Saul Karath in KotOR I, it takes 'several hours' for a fleet to be positioned for bombardment of a planet. And that was with a fleet that already had surrounded Taris in a planetwide quarantine, and that was much bigger to boot. Several hours is plenty of time for residents to flee, and the idea that the inhabitants of Nihilus' target planets never looked up at the sky for several hours while about half a dozen, black, conspicuous ships moved across the sky, is laughable. Visas also point-blank said that is it was not a thing done with machines or weapons, and suggested that it was done in an instant (as fast as he 'spoke'). Granted, she is quite hyperbolic about her descriptions of Nihilus, but her statement that it was not done with technology seemed pretty deadpan and matter-of-fact. This is corroborated with the KotOR Campaign Guide (Saga Edition), which states that Katarr was indeed pulled off by an 'unholy darkside technique', and 'Power Beyond Belief', which states that Nihilus consumed planets with but a 'thought'. Unseen:Unheard also seems to depict a near-instataneous assault, with Visas' hyperbolic speech matched up with corresponding images. And even if you still afford Visas' statements less value because of her hyperbole, the fact is that she was the only eyewitness of the event that you ever get to talk to in-game, (except Nihilus himself, ofc). And TCSWE is the only source which seems to fly directly in the face of her account, which hardly has a perfect track record on matters relating to KotOR.


The Telos question could simply be an issue of range. If you look at the window on the Ravager bridge in KotOR II, you can see that the Ravager is still a reasonable distance away from Telos. Whereas in Unseen:Unheard, Nihilus is depicted as being directly overhead. Perhaps that's the range he needs to be in to pull it off instantly.

And there are alternate explanations for the quote anyway. After all, it is possible to 'blast' things with telekinesis or pyrokineses (indeed, Tobin suggests that Nihilus would 'bring fire' to Telos, referring to Nihilus directly rather than his fleet).

Not that this affects the outcome of this fight. Sidious still wins very handily, but the TCSWE quote doesn't match up with other evidence.

ILS
Interesting, didn't know you posted here lazy.

lazybones
Originally posted by ILS
Interesting, didn't know you posted here lazy. Very rarely. But I came here every now and then. Might start contributing here more often on these threads because GDF can get boring sometimes.


Also some sources for those interested:

Nephthys
**** me, is the orbital bombardment horseshit really still a thing? erm

Good job lazybones. Hopefully people finally give up on this shit. I especially like SunRazer claiming that he obviously can't do it with a thought when the text literally says "They devastate and consume entire worlds with a thought."

The Ellimist
lazybones, that Nihilus drained Katarr isn't mutually exclusive from the stated observation that he used bombardment beforehand. The only contradictory quotes you really have are:

- that it's "not a thing done with machines or weapons"...right, the actual act of draining life from the world and eating the Force wasn't. Not a contradiction.

- that it would take several hours to get a fleet in a completely different context into orbit; really reaching there as we can find examples where that isn't the case, and in this case they may have better prepared their formations rather than suddenly having to arrange themselves on command, etc.

I do not yet see basis to toss out the quote.

Nephthys
Did you miss the quotes that directly state that "Through an unholy dark side technique, Nihilus murders every living being on Katarr," and "With the power of the Dark Side , Nihilus obliterates all life on Katarr "?

Theres no statement about orbital bombardment. The quote says he drained worlds that "he blasted into ruin." He blasted them into ruin with the Force, with his drain.

lazybones
Originally posted by The Ellimist
lazybones, that Nihilus drained Katarr isn't mutually exclusive from the stated observation that he used bombardment beforehand. Where is it stated unambiguously that he used bombardment? As I said, 'blast into ruin' does not necessarily have to refer to orbital bombardment, but also telekineses and pyrokineses, which actually corroborate with Tobin's words and the Saga Edition guide, which mentions that Nihilus used an 'unholy dark side technique' and 'the power of the Dark Side'. The latter quote is particularly clear.


Well, let's view the conversation in context. In order to elicit that response from Marr, the Exile must note:

"To kill on such a scale... it's impossible. I don't understand - it would have taken several Republic cruisers to destroy the surface of Katarr."

https://youtu.be/NkbtWLGpz8k?t=6m27s

So, the Exile literally floats the idea of orbital bombardment, and it's shot down. Visas weaves in the bit about life being expunged into her answer about the destruction of the surface, because the destruction of the planet and the draining of life were done nigh-simultaneously. As is shown in Unseen:Unheard, when Katarr is seen as going from tranquil to devastated in just a mere few panels.

https://youtu.be/KHSstYl9Yfs?t=39s

No lasers or capital ship bombardments. Explosions and buildings crumbling, yes, but those can be produced by the Force.


Any examples? If we're literally told that a bigger fleet from the same era (and much better tactical leadership), is unable to bombard the planet without several hours prep beforehand despite already surrounding the planet in an inescapable quarantine, then I see no position why we should assume why Nihilus would be in better reason to do so.

Except in Unseen:Unheard, we don't see Nihilus make any additional preparations. He just rolls up to the planet and destroys it. And Visas says that her people never saw him. Had his fleet been preparing then they could have been seen visibly.


And again, the idea of bombardment isn't even conclusively stated in the quote from TCSWE, so going to these lengths to make it fit is flat out unnecessary.

NiggySnowDrop
It seems that Nihilus using his powers to destroy the planet's surface is the most parsimonious assumption here. Just like how it's reasonable to assume that Plagueis' personal power affected the nexus of Naboo, causing it to freeze over.

The Ellimist
Originally posted by lazybones
Where is it stated unambiguously that he used bombardment? As I said, 'blast into ruin' does not necessarily have to refer to orbital bombardment, but also telekineses and pyrokineses, which actually corroborate with Tobin's words and the Saga Edition guide, which mentions that Nihilus used an 'unholy dark side technique' and 'the power of the Dark Side'. The latter quote is particularly clear.


Well, OK, I suppose it's possible he used telekinesis and whatnot, but the original claim was that the effects were somehow impossible to replicate technologically, and just "blasting" something clearly is, logistics about how long it takes to put a fleet into orbit notwithstanding. The only technique he has that would be so un-technological is his gigadrain, which doesn't really fit the phrase "blast".



Once again, the argument here is that he uses both, not that he didn't use the Force. I'm not saying this is what I'd assume if we didn't have the "blast" quote...but we do.

I also don't know why Nihilus couldn't have several cruisers given that he has a fleet...?



Well I was thinking of some situations that are from later eras where tech has advanced considerably (e.g. Base Delta Zeroes) so you're right on that front.

On preparations though, if the only "prep" needed is to arrive at the planet in a proper positioning so as to maximize firing brackets (which is the only preparation that really makes sense in this context), that's just a matter of exiting hyperspace in particular locations, there's no reason to think that's beyond a fleet's capabilities so I don't see how this isn't plausible.



Well, we can probably agree that "blast" likely does not mean "Force drain", which means that he either uses a fleet along with his drain or he telekinetically bombards the planet. I'm not saying the latter is impossible, I'm just honestly not sure which one is more reasonable.

Nephthys
Since when is telekinesis "an unholy dark side technique"?

Unseen, Unheard shows us the planet being devestated by a giant black cloud.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/4/41224/1755591-unseenunheard3.jpg

No ships anywhere, even in an orbital shot, no lasers, no explosions. Only Nihilus' attack causing the destruction. You literally see a shot from orbit of the attack reaching a city, the destruction in progress and then Visas fleeing with the destruction in the progress and nowhere are there any ships or lasers. They literally show you a shot from orbit right before the attack. No ships. What a surprise.

Vitiates destruction of Ziost caused massive destruction of the planet and disintegrated the population as well. Sources directly state that "Through an unholy dark side technique, Nihilus murders every living being on Katarr," and "With the power of the Dark Side , Nihilus obliterates all life on Katarr ."

lazybones
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Well, OK, I suppose it's possible he used telekinesis and whatnot, but the original claim was that the effects were somehow impossible to replicate technologically, and just "blasting" something clearly is, logistics about how long it takes to put a fleet into orbit notwithstanding. The only technique he has that would be so un-technological is his gigadrain, which doesn't really fit the phrase "blast".
I suppose you could go down that route. But considering that we have about four quotes from three sources (one of them the primary source) which attribute the Katarr feat to Nihilus' dark side power without any allusion to bombardment and one outright rejection of the idea, then I would tend to favor that interpretation over one quote from a sourcebook that has stated blatantly inaccurate information regarding KotOR in particular before. Even if the idea that he blasted it with TK is hard to believe at first.


Except that Visas says that it was not done with machines or weapons. And considering that Unseen:Unheard has the devastation and draining happening at the same time, then she is likely referring to both of those things. If there was a distinction to be made, then she would have made it.



True. But considering that his ships were wrecks from the Mandalorian Wars, it's perfectly possible that they weren't functioning at full capacity. And Visas directly states they were not involved, which Unseen:Unheard reinforces.



Evidence tells us that Nihilus gives very little thought to strategy and prep, though. Hence why he drained the Exile on the spot when they met without thinking of the ramifications of such a move. According to Kreia, his power 'rules him', and has its own instincts. Those instincts being to consume any powerful beings in sight or blast them into submission with his power, presumably.

And if Nihilus is tactically hopeless and has no real control over his actions, then the same could be said about everyone else on his fleet. And considering that Malak didn't give the idea of precisely positioning the fleet any thought until Saul Karath brought it up makes me think that a being like Nihilus, who thinks purely on instinct, isn't going to consider them either.


Because with the logistical ramifications of bombardment in mind, the idea that Nihilus done it with his own power is actually more believable and corroborated in canonical sources. The only eye-witness, along with three other quotes from two sources, pin Nihilus' achievements down to 'an unholy dark side technique', 'his dark side power' or the 'dark and devastating powers' wielded by the Sith of that era. We also have one explicit contradiction of the bombardment claim from the primary source. And since TCSWE has a track record of being flat out wrong on matters related to KotOR before, it's not as hard to dismiss.

Freedon Nadd
Jesus Kenobi. Again this thread?! This is worse than Sidious vs Vitiate/Valkorion

Freedon Nadd
About the "blasted into ruins" line. Vitiate's Ritual on Nathema did the same. It also affected buildings as well, even robots.

Blasted is just a way of saying that he brought Katarr to a waste land.

Not to mention that TCSWE is written by a bunch of biased Lucas canon writers(with Pablo and Wallace in charge)

Freedon Nadd
And before someone says why didn't Nihilus insta-drain Telos is due to the fact that he didn't do it deliberately. He wanted to see if what Kreia said it was really true about there being Jedi. Because during the Dark Times, Jedi were thought to be extinct. Nihilus didn't want to risk in draining Telos. And once he found out the truth from Jedi Exile, he raged and attacked her. He couldn't drain Telos when he found the truth. He just had an enemy on his ship.

And Wounds in the Force can't drain each other(because both have a 'singularity' condition)

And using as argument Force powers that game bots execute on you is wrong(like Kreia draining you or Sion), due to the fact that Nihilus drains you when you play the game and he siphons your life points.

SunRazer
What is Nihilus risking by draining Telos? He has no regard for life at all, and he's getting fed either way. If the Jedi really are there, they'd be consumed anyway, and if not, he would just move on in search of them. @Nadd, Kreia draining you is a cutscene, not a game bot. lol

@The ongoing debate about TCSWE - We're not debating if Katarr involved bombardment. This is what I said:



Katarr is the ambiguous one, the "blasted" planets are the ones in TCSWE. I presumed Katarr was prepped with some sort of power gathering to account for the disparate performance, and that's plausible on the grounds that Nihilus sensed Katarr long ahead of time and that the planet called to him like a beacon from way across the galaxy. Given Nihilus almost single-handedly destroyed the Jedi there, it's reasonable to assume that none of the other planets he attacked would've had the same properties.

The point on taking hours to prep the feat is true but that also exposes the fact that Katarr was very clearly a surprise attack. Palpatine (or more or less anyone Nihilus fights in a versus board scenario) here is a prepared opponent.

I don't really care if the bombardment is from the Ravager or Nihilus' other Force powers, as both cases serve my point that it's not the singular act of Drain destroying the planets.

@Lazybones - The range argument is fair. I assume you mean that he just couldn't accelerate his ship there in time, as opposed to Citadel Station being some sort of obstruction to him?

DarthAnt66
It's possible Katarr was bombarded from orbit.

Nephthys
It isn't.

AncientPower
The only source that even implies such doesn't even get his death right. It's contradicted by literally every other source on the matter.

SunRazer
TCSWE does get a lot wrong on KotOR II (it's hard to name a source that doesn't), but that doesn't mean we can throw out new information being published from the source as it's not explicitly contradicted. That's especially the case for those of you who cite Chronicles of the Old Republic.

lazybones
Originally posted by SunRazer

@Lazybones - The range argument is fair. I assume you mean that he just couldn't accelerate his ship there in time, as opposed to Citadel Station being some sort of obstruction to him? Yeah, I think he was unable to accelerate to the same position/range as he was before the Katarr attack, which may be the sort of distance he needs before he can pull off his drain. The difference between where he was at Katarr and where he was at Telos is big enough to make me think that it could be decisive, and would explain why he didn't just drain it instantly. Needed to get in range first.

AncientPower
Or we could subscribe to the fact that the entire point is that he can't drain Telos IV, that's the reason it's a trap. The planet is 90% dead. Hence why he'd destroy the Station.

SunRazer
Telos IV isn't devoid of life, and both Visas and Tobin confirm that he'd feed on it anyway for what little sustenance it can offer.

Originally posted by lazybones
Yeah, I think he was unable to accelerate to the same position/range as he was before the Katarr attack, which may be the sort of distance he needs before he can pull off his drain. The difference between where he was at Katarr and where he was at Telos is big enough to make me think that it could be decisive, and would explain why he didn't just drain it instantly. Needed to get in range first.

Well, it's interesting that Telos was able to react and defend itself so prematurely if Nihilus was that far away, while Nihilus managed to get right on top of Katarr without being noticed. Do you have anything to say about my other points?

Freedon Nadd
For god's sake, it was blatantly stated that he is after planets rich in Force energy(Telos was anything but that). When he heard that there are Jedi on Telos due to Kreia's machinations, he must have thought that there are lots of them; enough worth to be drained. That's the reason Nihilus ordered the attack on Telos before visiting it and draining it. He was checking it out. Also, as another member has added; he can only do it if he is in the vicinity of the planet.

Visas, who has been with him since he has drained other worlds, is somehow an unreliable source in comparison to a dumb 'official' statement?

She stated he does the drain and the destruction via the Force. Period.

As about Katarr; they didn't even know he was coming, nor they could sense him. The reason they 'sensed' him in the Telos Battles is because he attacked and revealed himself.

Note: Nihilus must have a reason to keep Visas with him. I believe that as his hunger increased, his Force senses also diminished 'til he became almost like an animal. It's entirely possible that his ability to sense planets rich in Force energy diminished exponentially along with his mental senses.

lazybones
Originally posted by SunRazer



Well, it's interesting that Telos was able to react and defend itself so prematurely if Nihilus was that far away, while Nihilus managed to get right on top of Katarr without being noticed. Do you have anything to say about my other points? I'd imagine that's got to do with the Republic fleet in orbit around Telos, which would have alerted Citadel Station as soon as the Ravager appeared out of hyperspace. Katarr didn't have that, which would have allowed Nihilus to drop out of hyperspace closer and accelerate with no hindrances.

As for your other points, it is possible that Nihilus gathered his powers for Katarr. But there's no explicit evidence to believe that was the case. It seems that he carried the attack out in a very short period of time, and any sort of prep isn't really alluded to. And the assumption that Nihilus prepped isn't really necessary to understand and reconcile the feat provided you take his hype at mostly face value, so I don't see why we need to make it.

Although as for Katarr being a surprise attack, that's certainly the case. But I'm not arguing that Katarr would immediately afford Nihilus the win against Palpatine or even anyone in the same general tier as him, so that doesn't particularly concern me. Against a well-prepared opponent with strong force barriers, he is not going to be able to freely exert power of that magnitude. But he has got that power within him, and it's more than what we've seen from an overwhelming majority of the mythos. My main point here is that orbital bombardment is not even conclusively supported by the source generally touted on the matter, and is directly contradicted by other competing sources including the primary source. Nihilus accomplished his planetary level feats with his own power, was my original point. Not that it's power that he'll necessarily be able to pull off on a whim against powerful opponents with no limits.

SunRazer
Originally posted by lazybones
I'd imagine that's got to do with the Republic fleet in orbit around Telos, which would have alerted Citadel Station as soon as the Ravager appeared out of hyperspace. Katarr didn't have that, which would have allowed Nihilus to drop out of hyperspace closer and accelerate with no hindrances.

As for your other points, it is possible that Nihilus gathered his powers for Katarr. But there's no explicit evidence to believe that was the case. It seems that he carried the attack out in a very short period of time, and any sort of prep isn't really alluded to. And the assumption that Nihilus prepped isn't really necessary to understand and reconcile the feat provided you take his hype at mostly face value, so I don't see why we need to make it.

Although as for Katarr being a surprise attack, that's certainly the case. But I'm not arguing that Katarr would immediately afford Nihilus the win against Palpatine or even anyone in the same general tier as him, so that doesn't particularly concern me. Against a well-prepared opponent with strong force barriers, he is not going to be able to freely exert power of that magnitude. But he has got that power within him, and it's more than what we've seen from an overwhelming majority of the mythos. My main point here is that orbital bombardment is not even conclusively supported by the source generally touted on the matter, and is directly contradicted by other competing sources including the primary source. Nihilus accomplished his planetary level feats with his own power, was my original point. Not that it's power that he'll necessarily be able to pull off on a whim against powerful opponents with no limits.

1. Yep, that makes sense. At the very least, this debunks the use of sourcebook game mechanic stats which apparently state that Nihilus can extend his drain to the range of many star systems.

2. It goes back to being an assumption that I made because of how rarely he managed to pull something like that among all the planets he attacked, as well as the fact that we know Nihilus knew about Katarr well in advance and could even sense the Force users on the planet from far away, giving him ample time to prepare.

And I'm not sure about taking Nihilus' hype at face value as most of it is poetic in nature and some of it has been outright wrong before.

3. Once again, the bombardment point refers to the various other planets that Nihilus was stated to have fed upon in the TCSWE, not Katarr. Although really, I think Nihilus' track record of feeding on individuals is more pertinent to a one-on-one battle than his record of feeding on planets. That opens other cans of worms that I mentioned in the previous pages.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
For god's sake, it was blatantly stated that he is after planets rich in Force energy(Telos was anything but that). When he heard that there are Jedi on Telos due to Kreia's machinations, he must have thought that there are lots of them; enough worth to be drained. That's the reason Nihilus ordered the attack on Telos before visiting it and draining it. He was checking it out. Also, as another member has added; he can only do it if he is in the vicinity of the planet.

Firstly, what other planets would've been rich in the Force? Nihilus destroyed presumably most of the Jedi Order on Katarr, and we have to set aside room for Sion and his assassins to kill many others. We also know that several other Jedi (the Masters we see in KotOR II) went into hiding. With a starting count of less than a hundred Jedi, the remaining Jedi combined on a planet wouldn't have been able to make a planet "rich" in the Force, certainly no moreso than Telos (I recall early on at the beach, Kreia stops you to talk about the strength of the Force in the place).

Secondly, the "checking out" thing makes sense, but only to an extent. It's outright stated in the game that he was going to feed on Telos anyway to sustain himself with what little the planet could offer. It makes little sense that he'd spend that much time worrying about whether or not he could sense the Jedi given how indiscriminate he is towards life. He would consume it anyway.

The vicinity argument is the only one that makes sense. I've already accepted that one.



She states he drained Katarr with the Force and not technological weapons. She doesn't say it for any of the other planets, which is my point. And once again, whether you treat "bombardment" as being done by ships or Nihilus' Force powers, my point stands.



That also devalues the Katarr feat, of course, as it's a surprise attack.



She survived the initial attack somehow, so Nihilus spared her. After that, he wanted to make her "see" his vision of the galaxy, and from then on he kept her as a Shadow Hand and used her for the purposes you stated. She tells the Exile outright that she can see things her master can't.

lazybones
Originally posted by SunRazer
2. It goes back to being an assumption that I made because of how rarely he managed to pull something like that among all the planets he attacked, as well as the fact that we know Nihilus knew about Katarr well in advance and could even sense the Force users on the planet from far away, giving him ample time to prepare.

And I'm not sure about taking Nihilus' hype at face value as most of it is poetic in nature and some of it has been outright wrong before. I suppose so, although the sort of power he showed on Katarr couldn't be perfectly replicated in battles regardless. At least, not against any mid-high tier combatant, unless he broke their barriers utterly first. So whether this is actually the case probably doesn't change that much.

Yes, but given the logistical difficulties of bombardment and the lack of available nutrition in the galaxy, I still don't believe he would have done it for those other planets either. Why not rehash the strategy that worked so well on Katarr? I'd imagine Telos would be an outlier in terms of defence due to the urgency to defend the Restoration Project, and Carth Onasi's determination to defend his homeworld. Thus, the surprise attack strategy tried on Katarr would probably still be totally fine on most of those planets, because there would be few defences to speak of.

And regarding Nihilus' track record on feeding individuals, it is different from his track record against planets. Although his most notable feat against an individual (Traya) was presumably vastly pre-Prime, so I'm not sure that would be a very accurate portrayal of his limits and powers either.

SunRazer
Most of that is agreeable. The lack of information on any of these other worlds is a bit of a problem. But again, whether the blasts were Force powers or technology, it doesn't bode well for Nihilus.

But we've deviated a lot from the thread now, especially if you agree that the planet feeding isn't relevant to this fight.

Haschwalth
This thread shows Nihilus wank at it's best.

Freedon Nadd
Originally posted by SunRazer
Firstly, what other planets would've been rich in the Force? Nihilus destroyed presumably most of the Jedi Order on Katarr, and we have to set aside room for Sion and his assassins to kill many others.

1. It is stated that Nihilus goes after planets rich in the Force
2. The galaxy is very big. It could be 'true' that they didn't wipe out all the Jedi
3. You have also to take in account that Nihilus was in the Hunger-mode when he initiated the attack on Telos. When he heard the rumor that the Jedi gathered on Telos; he immediately took it as proof and went there to check it out



As said above, when opportunity came for Nihilus, he immediately took advantage of it. Also, keep in mind that the Jedi are natural enemies to the Sith; so it would make sense he would go to drain them to sate his Hunger. But because he didn't have any longer Visas with him to confirm it; and he didn't 'sense' them either on Telos; he stood and awaited for confirmation on his Ravager. Also, as said before; the Hunger brought him almost to basic actions.
Even the Jedi Exile and her team boarded on his ship; and he didn't notice it.
What I try to say is that the only thing that mattered to him at that point was the draining of Jedi on Telos.

If you don't want this answer; you could say that he thought that those Jedi(who are just a machination) were serving as a greater food collectively than the entire planet of Katarr(that they were stronger in the Force than the planet)




No one said he gives a frying pan about life. But it was explicitly stated that he goes only after planets rich in Force energy; and Telos was anything but that. That's why he attacked Telos(with his forces) in the first place and waited. He wanted to see if those rumors were true. That's why he sent his forces in the first place and not brought himself with the Ravager on Telos.

Visas says that when Nihilus finds out the truth; he'd still cleanse it of life because he was desperate to quell his Hunger.
That's why he didn't attack Telos; he needed a confirmation.

By the time he figures out, the Jedi Exile also says:

"Kreia has lied to you-there are no Jedi here. You have sensed it."

Now, you will say: But why the hell didn't he order his forces to retreat?

1. Because he was in the middle of a challenge. After all you saw that he was so hungry and desperate; that he tried to drain the Exile and it backfired at him.
2. If he'd have killed the Exile and her team; he'd have still drained Telos as Visas blatantly puts it. But he just didn't want to accept the truth that it was all a fabrication of Traya. Hence the Jedi Exile said to him that Kreia indirectly betrayed him or manipulated him.



If Nihilus devoid Katarr of Force and not other planets; then Visas would have pointed this out to the Exile.



It doesn't devalue $hit. You are just pissed because this guy can casually drain planets of life.
There are many sources that state that; and yet, you are against them. It's like you don't want to accept that a Sith Lord(Nihilus) is able to do that on a planetary scale with relative ease. I bet that if it were Sidious; you'd immediately accept this as fact without the need of looking 'deeper' in the words.



She didn't survive his attack. Nihilus is the one who didn't kill her deliberately. He was looking for a seer-due to their ability of peering through the Force.

And my last point to make; you do realize that if bombing was really at stake in his wide-planetary drain; then Nihilus would have to bomb all the planet in each section for that?

Even Vitiate's Nathema Ritual has shown that even buildings are affected by drain.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by The Ellimist
There were thousands of them on Korriban and they're supposed to attack intruders, sooo...
You are confusing shambling animated corpses with actual Sith spirits.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
But they are gone, you can see it...

The Korriban sith try to attack Palpatine the first time, then the second time only a few remain and they're scared of him. It's not too difficult to connect the dots.
When actual Sith spirits assaulted Palpatine, he lost his life almost.

Freedon Nadd
This so-called Most Powerful Sith Lord Of All cannot defeat a bunch of Sith spirits; even sought advice from them regarding his clone problems. laughing Happy Dance

SunRazer
@lazybones - A rather random bump from our friend Freedon Nadd here reminded me of the SWTOR codex that detailed the Battle of Telos IV, which outright states that Nihilus prepared to devour all life on the planet. That does confirm that the quotes about him devastating worlds with a thought and what not are entirely hyperbolic in nature.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
1. It is stated that Nihilus goes after planets rich in the Force
2. The galaxy is very big. It could be 'true' that they didn't wipe out all the Jedi
3. You have also to take in account that Nihilus was in the Hunger-mode when he initiated the attack on Telos. When he heard the rumor that the Jedi gathered on Telos; he immediately took it as proof and went there to check it out

My point is that no other planets would've been rich in the Force except if they were just naturally attuned to the Force. The amount of Jedi left in the galaxy would've been too low for another Katarr. That's also why nobody names a planet Nihilus drains other than Katarr, lol. It's because none of them were significant; most were probably not even known to the wider galaxy.



I understand these points. What I said is that he doesn't need to investigate for long because he went all this way already. If he isn't rewarding himself with a planetary feast, Jedi or not, he's wasting his time. Of course he'd just feed. He's willing to investigate after the fact, as we saw with Katarr. Given that he doesn't care about life, it would make sense if he just indiscriminately fed regardless.

Anyway, there's no point continuing this. LazyBones gave me a perfectly good answer on Telos already and the SWTOR codex sheds further light on it. It seems as though Nihilus was preparing to devour life anyway and just couldn't get into range/didn't have enough time to prepare before the Exile boarded his ship.



I got this. The point is why didn't he Drain Telos before encountering the Exile, and LazyBones' claim of "range" was sufficient for me. That is, until you rather randomly bumped some other thread and reminded me of the SWTOR codex stating that Nihilus had to make preparations in order to drain Telos. laughing



Not necessarily. Visas states that she doesn't know where he goes/is except when he calls for her. She may not have been present when Nihilus attacked other planets.



"No u" isn't a reply. You didn't even address my point.

Why would I be pissed? I'm one of KotOR II's few defenders on this forum. In fact, I've been accused of wanking KotOR II in the past on this forum, and I was one of Nihilus' defenders against the quote in the Revan novel. I'm just appropriately skeptical of Nihilus' laughably hyperbolic praise, as has been the general trend on this forum for a while. That you take it all at face value doesn't mean a more critical analysis is invalid. After all, I was willing to indulge you on a critical analysis of Sidious' accolades. That you're unwilling to do the same here reeks of confirmation bias.

Funny that you throw a charge of me not wanting to accept facts after denying the same accusation in the other thread. You literally devalue everything because it comes from a specific era, and you want to charge other people of being pissed and wanting to subvert facts? laughing out loud

Nobody's looking deeper at anything. I accepted Visas' statements at face value that Katarr wasn't done by machines. I also took TCSWE's quote that he "blasted" planets into orbit, and thanks to your reminder, the SWTOR codex stating he prepared to Drain Telos. Sounds like you're the one who can't accept facts.

And no, I've looked "deeper" into the words of a variety of Sidious showings, but I'm not here to indulge emotional breakdowns. Come back when you've got more than ad hominems to your case.



Is there proof that he spared her from the original attack, and if so, why specifically? She was obviously hit and knocked unconscious, just didn't die. It seems to me that he roamed the planet for survivors and came across her, then salvaged her.



Well, Malak did that just fine in the original KotOR. And if we take LazyBones' point that these planets would've lacked military defences, then Nihilus taking hours to reposition a fleet for bombardment would be fine as well.



Contrary to your assertions, Vitiate's ritual on Nathema just isn't the same as Nihilus'. And if it were, you'd be conceding that Nihilus used a ritual.

Nephthys
Originally posted by SunRazer
@lazybones - A rather random bump from our friend Freedon Nadd here reminded me of the SWTOR codex that detailed the Battle of Telos IV, which outright states that Nihilus prepared to devour all life on the planet. That does confirm that the quotes about him devastating worlds with a thought and what not are entirely hyperbolic in nature.

It doesn't nearly do that. In much the same way that you can prepare to finish off an opponent simply by raising your weapon, the term "prepared to" doesn't actually indicate any kind of significant preparations are necessary. At most all it means is that he was getting in range to use the technique, as has been pointed out repeatedly.

Besides which, we know from the game that he was still trying to find the "missing" Jedi when the Exile confronts him. You can even taunt him over it.

SunRazer
Originally posted by Nephthys
It doesn't nearly do that. In much the same way that you can prepare to finish off an opponent simply by raising your weapon, the term "prepared to" doesn't actually indicate any kind of significant preparations are necessary. At most all it means is that he was getting in range to use the technique, as has been pointed out repeatedly.

Besides which, we know from the game that he was still trying to find the "missing" Jedi when the Exile confronts him. You can even taunt him over it.

They only need to be significant enough to suggest that it's not "a thought" which is used to destroy worlds, as that doesn't require preparation. However, the Force doesn't work in the way of transitioning instantly from "out of range" to "destroy with a thought", lol. If that was the case, Nihilus would be able to destroy it from a greater distance simply by using greater exertion. We have every reason to believe it's hyperbole when a) Nihilus opts to stun mere individuals first before draining them and b) Nihilus has been afforded hyperbolic praise before. If we pay attention to the sources which wank him (Kreia, Visas, Power Beyond Belief, etc, they are all prone to highly poetic and exaggerated forms of description and praise).

This would be like me taking Palpatine "threatening to consume all of space" with his Storms literally. "Oh, but I like how you don't, even though it literally says so in the text!" Just in case Nadd accuses me of it, though, I'll make it clear now: I don't take that quote at face value either.

I've already accepted the range argument from lazybones. You should stick to that, because the more you pretend that it's about "finding the missing Jedi" then the less the "preparation" has to do with coming into range and the more it has to do with actually preparing via the Force, lol.

Freedon Nadd
It wasn't Palpatine threatening space. It was his Force storm.

SunRazer
It was Palpatine threatening to consume space with his Force Storm. Needless nitpicking, but I'll edit it in for your sake.

Freedon Nadd
And now that the matter has been solved as lazybones said, is everything clear?

Freedon Nadd
Palpatine's Force storm would have threaten space, by itself, because it would grow unchecked and absorb more and more Force energy.

SunRazer
There's no basis for that. After Luke and Leia destroyed Palpatine's control over his Storm, it consumed him and the Eclipse before dissipating.

The quote is obviously hyperbole.

Freedon Nadd
That's because the Force storm was still under his control. Palpatine is the one who opens or closes them when he summons them, so to speak. If Palpatine lets it loose and he is alive; then it starts to function independent of him. The reason it disappeared when he was cut off from the Force was due to the fact that Force storm was still linked to Palpatine's control.

Freedon Nadd
As about our discussion:



1. Vitiate needed a ritual because he wasn't powerful enough to do it by himself.
2. In case of both Nathema and Katarr: the same thing happened. It's just that on Nathema it was more violently.
Both events left a void in the Force.



You do realize that when Nihilus struck; she was rendered unconscious a few moments next? How would she know what Nihilus did to Katarr, then? How would she know what Nihilus' hunger does?

You know why she knows that? Because she is a Miraluka. And her race can detect shifts in the Force and 'holes'. She could be in her room and still sense how Nihilus drains worlds of Force turning them into voids. So, no, my friend, she doesn't have to see. Heck, she is also blind. She cannot describe anything with her eyes. I am pretty sure that if bombing was involved in any of his wide-planetary drains; she'd have heard it and confirmed it to the Jedi Exile.



You are kidding with me, right?

It's already been said that he needed the confirmation that there are Jedi on that planet. That's the whole purpose of attacking Telos. That's why he sent his forces in the first place. He thought that a huge number of Jedi will show up to defend Telos. Don't forget about Force-sensitive who want to belong to the Jedi Order. Nihilus must've thought that a new order is forming under the Sith Triumvirate's nose.

It's like someone telling you to paint their house because they will give you roasted chicken, bread, fried sausages(you are also hungry as f*ck)
You think they must be right and you listen to them. Because you'd rather eat that rather than a small cup of rice; but you'd eat rice too because there's nothing you can do about that; it isn't enough; but it will sustain you for a bit, but you still want the former not the latter. And exactly that's the concept Nihilus operated when he attacked Telos.



Are you kidding with me again, right?

Common sense.
If Nihilus wouldn't have rendered her unconscious, how would he bring her on his ship?
If Nihilus let her untouched by his power, she'd flee and commit suicide. She was already willing to do that when Nihilus threatened to kill The Jedi Exile(because she saw life and hope in Meetra Surik).
Before saying why didn't she already do it? It's because it was stated that Nihilus corrupted her through the Force.

Nephthys
Originally posted by SunRazer
They only need to be significant enough to suggest that it's not "a thought" which is used to destroy worlds, as that doesn't require preparation. However, the Force doesn't work in the way of transitioning instantly from "out of range" to "destroy with a thought", lol. If that was the case, Nihilus would be able to destroy it from a greater distance simply by using greater exertion. We have every reason to believe it's hyperbole when a) Nihilus opts to stun mere individuals first before draining them and b) Nihilus has been afforded hyperbolic praise before. If we pay attention to the sources which wank him (Kreia, Visas, Power Beyond Belief, etc, they are all prone to highly poetic and exaggerated forms of description and praise).

This would be like me taking Palpatine "threatening to consume all of space" with his Storms literally. "Oh, but I like how you don't, even though it literally says so in the text!" Just in case Nadd accuses me of it, though, I'll make it clear now: I don't take that quote at face value either.

I've already accepted the range argument from lazybones. You should stick to that, because the more you pretend that it's about "finding the missing Jedi" then the less the "preparation" has to do with coming into range and the more it has to do with actually preparing via the Force, lol.

And there isn't any indication that it is even that significant. "He raised the gun and prepared to shoot" is an acceptable use of the phrase even though all that's referring to is mentally deciding to squeeze the trigger and doing so. And the Force can easily work like that bro, concentrating super hard doesn't necessarily make your lightning go twice as far. You don't know enough about the technique to make that claim. Plus you seem to be underestimating how big space is. Nihilus stunned those people so he could talk to them. His apprentice is with them after all and he's been looking for the Exile all game. And don't talk about poetic phrases. As if "blasted into ruins" is a 100% clinical and literal term and its the basis for your entire argument.

The big difference here is that we've seen the technique be used instantly on people, we've seen it being used subconsciously and without any actual effort required and other descriptions of its use are all termed as being brief. It requiring prep actually runs counter to the evidence.

I care more about establishing the facts than what you agree with. In this case Visas makes it pretty clear that he's waiting to feed on the station and the planet until after he finds the Jedi. Its even implied that he doesn't actually care about Telos and would only feed on it if he couldn't find the Jedi.

Q_Eie5kxm8U

3.20 onwards.

SunRazer
The difference is that if someone says "he can shoot a gun with a press of a trigger", then I wouldn't have any qualms with accepting the quote at face value, lol.

Well, then we just have to agree to disagree. I for one don't think that the millimetre's difference transitions from Nihilus being utterly impotent to annihilating the entire planet with a thought.

Oh, it can be used instantly on people. The idea of it requiring prep for an entire planet isn't contrary to anything, though.

Nihilus didn't say anything to Traya, and was out to kill her. He still stunned her with telekinesis first.

I don't think any of that video contradicts the preparation quote. In fact, if I took your assumption that Nihilus had no interest in feeding on the planet except if he couldn't find the Jedi, then that works for my case, as he obviously wouldn't be preparing to feed on Telos until he was satisfied that he couldn't find the Jedi (the Exile's words probably being mere confirmation).

Freedon Nadd
Nihilus didn't want to kill Kreia. He and Sion exiled her. He could have easily Force-broke her neck if it was the case. He easily dominated Kreia with the Force.

SunRazer
Sion states that "You are difficult to kill" to Kreia, and to Nihilus he says "You did not kill her, as you assumed".

Kreia clearly survived without their knowing, lol.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
That's because the Force storm was still under his control. Palpatine is the one who opens or closes them when he summons them, so to speak. If Palpatine lets it loose and he is alive; then it starts to function independent of him. The reason it disappeared when he was cut off from the Force was due to the fact that Force storm was still linked to Palpatine's control.
The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia disclosed that Force Storms are natural cosmic phenomenon.

That Palpatine was able to conjure one as of DE, doesn't imply that his could consume all of space. You realize how big the Universe is and how insignificant a Force Storm is in comparison to it?

The Skywalkers disrupted Palpatine's control over his Force Storm and it dissipated after consuming Palpatine's flagship.

In-fact, a Force Storm hasn't busted a moon, let alone the Universe.

Rebel95
Palpatine

samappo
Originally posted by SunRazer
Sion states that "You are difficult to kill" to Kreia, and to Nihilus he says "You did not kill her, as you assumed".

Kreia clearly survived without their knowing, lol.

It's like they never played the game.

Freedon Nadd
Originally posted by SunRazer
Sion states that "You are difficult to kill" to Kreia, and to Nihilus he says "You did not kill her, as you assumed".

Kreia clearly survived without their knowing, lol.

You do realize that Sion came after the Jedi Exile, initially, and it happened that he also met his former master too?
"I sensed you, master. Old, faint, weak."

When he makes that statement with: "You are difficult to kill." He was referring at the current situation because Traya forged an alliance with the Jedi: "Save one broken Jedi. And one broken Jedi cannot stop the darkness that is to come.".

After all you saw that the Exile and her party slaughtered Sith assassins as they made their way to Darth Sion.
Hence he stated: "I spared you once. I shall not do the same mistake again."

As about your second quote: That's non-canon, as far as I am aware, and it has nothing to do with Kreia's exile or the attack on Peragus. Sion makes reference to Dxun because Kreia goes to the Tomb of Freedon Nadd - Kreia was originally supposed to be allowed to join the party that goes to the tomb. Cut so that it'd make sense with the Tobin scene in the Onderon Royal Palace where Kreia reveals the hiding place of the Jedi.

Since Darth Nihilus is the strongest in the Triumvirate; the responsibility falls on his shoulders. He is the leader, so to speak.
Nihilus assumed that his Sith forces killed Traya on Dxun. That's why Sion said:
"And there's more, yet. Darth Traya lives. You did not kill her as you assumed."

Not trying to be a troll: But you literally see how easily Nihilus Force-demolishes her and then Sion proceeds to beat the crap out of her. If they wanted to kill her there and then; Sion would have slain her with his lightsabre or Nihilus would have Force-crushed each bone in her body. Even Kreia says she is an exile and that they exiled her.

At best you could say that Nihilus and Sion didn't want to kill her with their hands and wanted to humiliate her by letting her flee Malachor only to be chased by their Sith forces. Sort of a hunting game.

Freedon Nadd
Originally posted by samappo
It's like they never played the game.

Except that I did. So keep the co*k to yourself.

Freedon Nadd
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia disclosed that Force Storms are natural cosmic phenomenon.

That Palpatine was able to conjure one as of DE, doesn't imply that his could consume all of space. You realize how big the Universe is and how insignificant a Force Storm is in comparison to it?

The Skywalkers disrupted Palpatine's control over his Force Storm and it dissipated after consuming Palpatine's flagship.

In-fact, a Force Storm hasn't busted a moon, let alone the Universe.

1. Force storms are definitely not natural cosmic phenomenon as they are created by harnessing dark side energy
2. Those Force storms are made of pure dark side energy. They also devour Force energy to work. Basically these Force storm are dark side energy incarnate. After they are created; these worm holes would also consume Force energy because they're made of dark energy. You know that dark side energies do leech off of vitality and Force energy people and anything that lives. That's why the darkest planets are mostly waste lands.
3. Left unchecked, the Force storm would ravage planets and absorb energy from them and then increase its mass
4. The Force storm dissipated because it was still under Palpatine's influence. It wasn't independent of him.
5. Left unchecked it could grow larger as it devours Force energy

I bet that Revan's statement about Vitiate's ritual consuming the galaxy if he is not stopped is true to you.

SunRazer
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
You do realize that Sion came after the Jedi Exile, initially, and it happened that he also met his former master too?
"I sensed you, master. Old, faint, weak."

When he makes that statement with: "You are difficult to kill." He was referring at the current situation because Traya forged an alliance with the Jedi: "Save one broken Jedi. And one broken Jedi cannot stop the darkness that is to come.".

No, he wasn't. The part that comes before the "broken Jedi" is this:



They're completely unrelated. He says the line about being difficult to kill very early on, making a clear reference to the fact that her ousting was actually an attempt on her life.



He doesn't say that on the Harbinger, lol. He says that on Malachor V when Traya returns, in reference to having spared her on the Harbinger, not his Nihilus-backed double-cross in the flashback.

Here: https://youtu.be/iTF9xu50Hb0?t=50

Abundantly clear that he's referring to sparing her on the Harbinger after cutting off her hand. That's why Kreia proceeds to talk about how his strength is as meaningless as the strength of her hand...



No idea what this has to do with anything. It was supposed to come after the Exile was apparently killed on Nar Shaddaa, which Sion bought and then left.

And it's not "canon" per se but it's in the script. It's blatantly obvious what the writers intended; even the Harbinger line alone would have convinced me but this really puts the nail in the coffin.



There's nothing in the script about Traya being killed on Dxun. In fact the script doesn't have lines for her on Dxun. You yourself said that the game had to account for the possibility of Kreia being on either Dxun or Onderon, and I believe Kreia's ability to go to Dxun was cut well before most other material anyway because it was required that she be on Onderon for narrative purposes. It wasn't something cut for time constraints. So her being on Dxun was cut before the game's final script was even presented.

Not only that, but even if she was apparently killed on Dxun, how on earth would Sion know that she wasn't? He doesn't meet her again until Malachor.

No. It's abundantly clear Sion's referring to the last time Nihilus met Traya, which was on Malachor V when they double-crossed her.



I don't deny that Sion and Nihilus could have killed her, but for whatever reason they did try and failed. Sion said exactly that. You're in denial.

Freedon Nadd
How the hell could they have failed!? Come on, Sun Razer, man. She was beat down a pulp. If you aren't satisfied with that answer, call it a plot hole.

Freedon Nadd
Are you sure Sion was referencing the Harbinger event, though?
We have never seen what happened to Traya after he cut her hand off on the Harbinger. Why would he spare her back then if he went through a lot of $hit to kill her? Sparing her wouldn't make sense in that context that you bring up.

After all we have seen Traya Force-choking Sion with relative ease on Malachor V. You also bring a good point that at the same spot(more or less) he beat the crap out of her; now it was him in her position. It would make sense he alluded to the flashback.
Sion also alluded to the fact that Traya was in search of the Jedi. It makes sense that being difficult to kill, he was referring at the current situation. So if you still are not convinced. Then look my final answer: They spared Kreia; they exiled her, but at the same time they had Sith agents to keep track of her deeds. They found out she was trying to find Jedi and then Sion and Nihilus decided to kill her; they sent their forces after her. Something happened; she disappeared. Then you find her on Ebon Hawk; Sion sees her and tells Nihilus he failed to kill her(in non-canon)

SunRazer
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
How the hell could they have failed!? Come on, Sun Razer, man. She was beat down a pulp. If you aren't satisfied with that answer, call it a plot hole.

Not explained by the writers but it seems intentional enough so I wouldn't call it a "plot hole". The writers simply opted to not explain it, as with why Kreia survived on the Harbinger.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd


Are you sure Sion was referencing the Harbinger event, though?
We have never seen what happened to Traya after he cut her hand off on the Harbinger. Why would he spare her back then if he went through a lot of $hit to kill her? Sparing her wouldn't make sense in that context that you bring up.

Yes, I'm sure. On the Harbinger she was conscious and yet still survived. Unless you're suggesting that she Mind Tricked him, the implication is that he spared her because he no longer regarded her as a threat and thought that he had sufficiently humiliated her. Of course, he was wrong, a point which she drives into his head when they meet again on Malachor.



There's no evidence that Sion knew she survived; that's the whole point. The Assassins weren't following her; they were targeting the Exile whom Kreia happened to get to first, so they ended up following them collectively. Sion didn't know that Kreia had survived Malachor before then. That's why he's surprised when he finds her on the Harbinger and remarks that she's difficult to kill. The only instance in which he's tried to kill her before then would have to have been his Nihilus-backed double-cross on Malachor V.

Freedon Nadd

SunRazer
No. "Something happened; she disappeared" is a solution you made up in your head. At no point is she reported dead to Sion or Nihilus, either in the script or the finished product of the game.

It's blatantly obvious that Sion's referring to the incident on Malachor both times.

Freedon Nadd
Then you have to accept that Nihilus killed her. They got rid off her body. She used Dark transfer on herself.
Or that she used a Force technique and hid her Force signature pretending to be dead.

Does it sound good to you, now, mr. Lawyer? Happy Dance

But IIRC, doesn't Sion make the report to Nihilus on the Ravager, that Traya lives, after a few conflicts with the Jedi Exile's team during the game?

What I am trying to say is that the scene with the report should have been after you finish the Peragus mining level, not long after the Peragus incident?

This could be proof that he was referring to the current situation.

Freedon Nadd
Originally posted by SunRazer
And it's not "canon" per se but it's in the script. It's blatantly obvious what the writers intended; even the Harbinger line alone would have convinced me but this really puts the nail in the coffin.

But the script isn't 'canon', though. When it comes about movies, cartoons, and video-games, there will always be several scripts. And only the last one is used: Which doesn't contain the cut-content because it was left out. The finished byproduct is: the video-game.
If you like to play it that way, then Palpatine, in the early drafts, admitted that he manipulated the midi-chlorians and created Anakin. Does it mean it is true? No. Because that line never reached in the actual product. Palpatine was also meant to be initially a muppet of the Moffs and not a Force-sensitive; but that idea was never passed in the actual universe.

SunRazer
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Then you have to accept that Nihilus killed her. They got rid off her body. She used Dark transfer on herself.
Or that she used a Force technique and hid her Force signature pretending to be dead.

Does it sound good to you, now, mr. Lawyer? Happy Dance

Dark Transfer? No. But I imagined she concealed her life signs and presence in the Force significantly (whatever was left of it) significantly, as I said before.

Regardless, this misses the point, which is that Nihilus was able to stun Traya and then drain her with Sion, and yet even with Sion's physical attacks afterwards the duo failed to kill her.



No, I've told you already that he makes this report after the Exile is presumed dead on Nar Shaddaa (or, apparently in some mods, M4-78). Sion then goes to report this to Nihilus and end their alliance as they both believe the Exile to be the last of the Jedi. Sion does not encounter Kreia again after the events of the Harbinger; not until Malachor V, anyway.



No, it happens considerably later. It happens after Nar Shaddaa.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
But the script isn't 'canon', though. When it comes about movies, cartoons, and video-games, there will always be several scripts. And only the last one is used: Which doesn't contain the cut-content because it was left out. The finished byproduct is: the video-game.
If you like to play it that way, then Palpatine, in the early drafts, admitted that he manipulated the midi-chlorians and created Anakin. Does it mean it is true? No. Because that line never reached in the actual product. Palpatine was also meant to be initially a muppet of the Moffs and not a Force-sensitive; but that idea was never passed in the actual universe.

Early drafts are not the script. An early draft would be something like Kreia being able to go to Dxun; doesn't exist in the script. And in the actual RotS script, Palpatine doesn't say that. Scripts are always close to the actual source. These are final scripts I'm talking about, not early drafts.

The script works fine to convey authorial intent limited by the game engine or time constraints (which we know in KotOR II covers a considerable amount of things). Avellone's intention is relevant because it clarifies and supports Sion's only canonical line about Kreia surviving, by making it abundantly clear that Kreia was always intended to survive in spite of an intention on both Sion and Nihilus' parts to kill her. Therefore there is no alternative reading of what Sion says on the Harbinger; both he and Nihilus tried to kill her on Malachor V, and she survived.

Freedon Nadd
You said it yourself: The report happens after Nar Shadda. If the report had anything to do with the 'past' situation, we would see the report after you finish the Peragus campaign, not later. C'mon, use logic, man.

SunRazer
That's because Sion didn't meet Nihilus again until then? He's part of a different "faction", as Visas calls it, of the Sith. He doesn't meet with Nihilus regularly, given even Visas doesn't know where Nihilus goes until Nihilus calls for her. If I learned some information about school/work and wanted to make a report in person to my teacher/boss, you'd excuse me for coming to see them on Monday morning instead of Saturday night.

Just stop being in denial.

Freedon Nadd
Uhmm, these Sith have something, called: Communication Links

Definition of draft - a preliminary version of a piece of writing

I think the KotOR 2 script counts here because it isn't the current version.

SunRazer
Visas obviously can't communicate with Nihilus via holo whenever she wants, so why would Sion be able to?

The script counts in making it even more clear that Sion and Nihilus tried and failed to (immediately) kill Kreia.

Scripts are never identical to the final source, but they are supposed to be very close. I am not aware of anything major in the script that was not implemented solely due to creator decisions, as opposed to time constraints. So the script is close enough to convey author intent which is relative to my point.

Freedon Nadd
That's obviously off-screen. Otherwise how would she keep contact with him while she is out there looking for the Exile?

SunRazer
Who said she keeps contact with him? She says she doesn't have knowledge of his whereabouts until he calls for her. So why would Sion? You're reaching.

Freedon Nadd
Otherwise how would she keep contact with him while she is out there looking for the Exile? You are right that she doesn't know his whereabouts, but he does call for Visas when he needs her. How would both Sith Lords order their soldiers when they are out there fighting war campaigns across the galaxy?

As about the report, Sion'd report it shortly after he encountered Traya, not wait so much time. The fact that Sion found Nihilus' Ravager suggests he had to know his current location.

SunRazer
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Otherwise how would she keep contact with him while she is out there looking for the Exile? You are right that she doesn't know his whereabouts, but he does call for Visas when he needs her. How would both Sith Lords order their soldiers when they are out there fighting war campaigns across the galaxy?

As about the report, Sion'd report it shortly after he encountered Traya, not wait so much time. The fact that Sion found Nihilus' Ravager suggests he had to know his current location.

1. I presume he telepathically contacts her. If she could set up a holo with him, she'd know his physical location, which she doesn't.

There are all sorts of shenangians going on behind the Exile's back and they are clearly depicted on-screen in the game already. Your arbitrary claims of her contacting of Nihilus off-screen need to be supported with evidence or at least some sort of implication, neither of which exist. Nihilus clearly underestimates the extent of Visas' devotion to the Exile when they do meet. If anything the implication is that Visas hasn't kept in contact with Nihilus since joining the Exile.

2. Or Nihilus set up the meeting after he sensed the Exile's apparent death? Even if Sion did find it on his own, neither consider themselves accountable to the other. Sion wasn't travelling all that way just to talk about Kreia surviving, since at the time he still considered her irrelevant and no longer a threat (that's presumably why he spared her, after all). The main reason he went to Nihilus was to report the Exile's "demise" and end their alliance. Kreia's survival was a trivia tidbit that he threw in at the end. It obviously didn't merit reporting on its own; once again even when Sion knew she was alive he didn't consider her a threat.

Freedon Nadd
For the purpose of this thread. We will debate it somewhere else.

Freedon Nadd
https://youtu.be/QCxcJugMe_Y

Watch the clip and skip to 00:58

First of all; it was never Darth Nihilus the one to deliver the fatal blow; it was Sion. Because we see that she is still alive at 01:17
This makes no sense that Sion was referring the Darth Traya beat, on Malachor V, if he said it was Nihilus' fault in the cut-content.


Sion's statement of: "After all that has happened, still you live. You're difficult to kill." bears no evidence to support the argument they tried to kill her.

EDIT TO THE POST REGARDING SION'S STATEMENTS ON THE HARBINGER:

We have to understand that Kreia was cut off from the Force by the duo. And as Kreia mentioned: what are the Force-users if they couldn't wield the Force anymore?

Sion's second sentence doesn't refer to Traya's 'surviving' Darths Sion and Nihilus but rather her ability to stay alive even if she lost her touch with the Force(at least for a short time)
That's why Sion doesn't say: "After all that has happened, still you live?" Sion makes a sentence with the lack of the "?".
So, he was definitely alluding to Kreia's ability to stay alive even when she lost her touch with the Force.

When they exiled her, they were sure she was going to die somewhere in the corner of the galaxy due to her inability to use the Force.

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