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WHO IS THE #6 MOST POWERFUL CHARACTER?

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RANKINGS:

1.) Luke Skywalker
2.) Palpatine
3.) Anakin Skywalker
4.) Yoda
5.) Darth Plagueis

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BACKGROUND AND RULES: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f6/t649092.html.

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REMINDER: All characters are strictly in their Legends incarnation and are at peak combative (not potential) capabilities under normal conditions (no external amplifies or other temporary boosts are to be considered). All characters are at peak mental mindset while maintaining an accurate portrayal of their mindset and beliefs (morals on). Lightsaber skill and related abilities (such as physical strength, speed, etc.) is to be considered if relevant.

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ADDITIONAL NOTICE #1: "Morals on" means that characters are fighting as they would be portrayed within the Star Wars universe given the conditions listed above. The intent is to not weaken the characters of any power, but rather for light-side characters to stay light-side characters. Thus, Luke Skywalker is not going to embrace the dark-side and use Force lightning or Force drain. Instead, Luke will bring all his powers to bear given the constraints of his ideology.

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ADDITIONAL NOTICE #2: UnuThul will be considered with the amplified abilities he receives from the Killiks.

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BANNED CHARACTERS: Ones of Mortis, Abeloth, Bedlam Spirits, Force Demons, Terror from Beyond, Waru, Mother Talzin, Gethzerion, Onimi, Irek Ismaren, Sarasu Taalon, World Razer, Sekot, Yuuzhan'tar, and other exotic entities.

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VOTE!

UnuThul

Besides that, I'd probably say Mace Windu.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66

RANKINGS:

1.) Luke Skywalker
2.) Palpatine
3.) Anakin Skywalker
4.) Yoda
5.) Darth Plagueis
http://i.imgur.com/ZdXsNN1.png

My gut says I have to go with Mace, when you consider general power, skill, accolades, feats, and most importantly, the nigh-unparalleled advantage of Vaapad.

Darth Krayt.

Dunno, but it's not Valkorion.

Windu yeah. He's close to Sidious with or without Vapaad which places him significantly above the likes of Plagueis in terms of raw power (Plagueis is <<TPM Sids). So while Mace may not have Plagy's hax, he has the magnitude in power of someone who has telepathically reached out to every being in the universe, forced the direct intervention of the force, set landscapes on fire with his lightning, scales above fotress scale tk, and can suffeciently manipulate the buiding blocks of life to hold off the lightning of the most powerful sith lord in history. All the above seems to be a moreimpressive resume to me than whatever Valk has to offer.

Mace also has a lightsaber, while Valk does not. This happens to be a pretty massive advantage combatively as tutaminis expends energy far faster than simply swinging a lightsaber. Mace lightsaber abilities also border on the level of Anakin, Yoda, and Sidious. Three combatants who are the all time G.O.A.Ts as of the PT era.

Finally, Mace has vapaad. In the context of overall impressive combative formidability, Mace essentially is shielded from all darkside hax which means he's only vulnerable to estoric light side abilities.

Considering all the above, Mace seems to me a far more impressive overall combatant than Valkorian.

Valk.......

Darth Krayt, because everyone's too retarded to vote for Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by Haschwalth
Valk.......

Syn, what's your reasoning on why Valkorion doesn't win?

Honestly, it's more my placement of Krayt then anything. The text in Apocalypse indicates that his drain had a large impact on a being that was amping itself off of the life energy of trillions of beings and this was presumably while he was hindered by Vong parasites and before decades of further power growth. Krayt Reborn, which I take to be Krayt's prime, should be solidly above even the level I hold Apocalypse Krayt at which is enough to cause me to place him above the likes of Valkorion, though I believe it's close.

Honestly though, I understand why someone would vote for Valk over Krayt if they interpreted the fight in Apocalypse differently.

The "" was just me poking fun at Has.

Originally posted by Naugrim
The "" was just me poking fun at Has.

It was less to do with the fact I voted Valkorian, but more the fact, we have for the past 3 times?

Yes.

Though, I love you seem to neglect his fight with Muur, which argues his standing to be below that of Post Nathema Vitiate on top of 1200 years of Growth, with Ziost.

He was literally on death's door step by that point in the series...

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Finally, Mace has vapaad. In the context of overall impressive combative formidability, Mace essentially is shielded from all darkside hax which means he's only vulnerable to estoric light side abilities. And UnuThul's telepathic powers presumably.

Any reason for why Windu isn't getting mind fcked here?

Originally posted by Naugrim
He was literally on death's door step by that point in the series...
Revan was literally walking around in a dead body out preforming his living incarnations.

Good for him.

Valkorion.

Not sure. Mace or Unuthul would be my choices.

In addition to his absurd TK, Unuthul dominated hundreds of Jedi at once telepathically and *almost did the same to Luke*.

Valkorion.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
In addition to his absurd TK, Unuthul dominated hundreds of Jedi at once telepathically and *almost did the same to Luke*.



The only impressive thing, that could make him a candidate, from that sentence.

http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/pile_of_shit.gif

Aww, is your rage upon seeing facts you can't contend with so great you can't help defecating instantaneously?

Shoo, little boy.

Can 100% guarantee Syn didn't read it.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Aww, is your rage upon seeing facts you can't contend with so great you can't help defecating instantaneously?

Shoo, little boy.

Nah. I'm just surprised you had the gall to use arguments that have been actively disproved in your latest wank attempt.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Can 100% guarantee Syn didn't read it.

You'd be wrong then.

Gonna go with Samuel L Jackson for time being.

None of them were disproved, stop regurgitating what Ell regurgitated from Az.

Originally posted by Naugrim
You'd be wrong then.
https://media.giphy.com/media/a3zqvrH40Cdhu/giphy.gif

Originally posted by AncientPower
None of them were disproved, stop regurgitating what Ell regurgitated from Az.

You really do live in a world of your own, don't you? Honestly, it's kind of impressive in its' own sad kind of way.

Nah. The lying, poor man's Gideon has done nothing but attempt damage control on Tenebrae whilst embellishing flawed Banite scaling prior and taking hyperbolic descriptions as facts.

You're woefully mistaken. I have sources for every single line in that post sweetie.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f2/11/8e/f2118e57a4c35de4d620607693a6403d.gif

LMAO. Your sources in no way support your conclusions as has been proved countless times. It's a waste of my breathe to even say that to you though since you'll keep posting these shitty arguments no matter how often they're disproved. At least I can console myself with the though that, by this point, the people who are smart enough to have realized you have nothing to say have already turned you out and those who haven't are too far gone to be saved anyways.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
And UnuThul's telepathic powers presumably.

Any reason for why Windu isn't getting mind fcked here?
Telepathy is a force power which Unuthul would be utilizing via dark power. Hence, it's not exempted from Mace's super conducting loop.

Not that this is a versus.

Originally posted by |King Joker|
Valkorion.

Originally posted by Haschwalth
The only impressive thing, that could make him a candidate, from that sentence.

So he beats everyone else in contention, as it's a more potent 1 v 1 telepathic feat than any other we've seen.

People underrate UnuThul because he's obscure and it feels weird for a random character to be so powerful, but the facts remain that:

- he has the combined potential of literally trillions of beings (compare this to Valkorion recovering and gaining so much from just, what, a few hundred million on Ziost?)

- he has bent away entire turbolaser barrages powerful enough to destroy military-grade shielded frigates, the most potent environmental TK feat in the mythos

- he almost mentally dominated Luke

Yeah, UnuThul wins.

Yeah, I'll shift my vote to Unuthul, who in retrospect should have won in an earlier round.

Mace can take 7A

Originally posted by The Ellimist
So he beats everyone else in contention, as it's a more potent 1 v 1 telepathic feat than any other we've seen.

People underrate UnuThul because he's obscure and it feels weird for a random character to be so powerful, but the facts remain that:

- he has the combined potential of literally trillions of beings (compare this to Valkorion recovering and gaining so much from just, what, a few hundred million on Ziost?)

- he has bent away entire turbolaser barrages powerful enough to destroy military-grade shielded frigates, the most potent environmental TK feat in the mythos

- he almost mentally dominated Luke

Yeah, UnuThul wins.

Telepathy has a lot to do with willpower, not just force power.

Trillions? give me more context.

Kyp moving a miniature black hole is more impressive tbh.

Yeah, actually, where are Kyp or Caedus?

Below the chars mentioned in the OP

definitely could make a case for kyp against the others here.

I think all of the people in the OP can beat a slayer tbh

I'm conflicted between Mace and UnuThul. Mace's mind is vulnerable to mental assault, but then again, if he could reflect something as intangible as Force speed back on Palpatine, then who knows - TP might work too. After all, isn't the purpose of Vaapad to draw on darkness as a whole rather than any specific Force technique? They are merely manifestations of that darkness from which they are drawn from when utilized by darksiders, as I see it.

Am I making sense? Who knows, my thoughts on this aren't the most developed or coherent. Maybe someone else - preferrably not AP, Nephtard or LeGenD - could reinforce or undermine these notions.

This isn't a versus. Anyway, I'm voting Unuthul because he's likely has relativity to Luke which beats relativity to ROTS Sdiious.

In terms of raw power UnuThul has no relativity to Luke, at least not to a Luke who is using his full power.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
This isn't a versus. Anyway, I'm voting Unuthul because he's likely has relativity to Luke which beats relativity to ROTS Sdiious. Uh, it is who the best combatant is.

Neither Unuthul or Windu have any hope against Valkorion. Not only does he possess a number of techniques its highly doubtful they could defend against, but they utterly lack any response to his time manipulation abilities.

Nihilus has the best feats out of anyone on the list. Destroying a planet surface with his powers while keeping his ship together, even being masterful enough to spare individual targets in the process.

He gets my vote.

Mace voter here

Originally posted by Trocity
Valkorion.

Originally posted by JKBart
UnuThul voter here Why?

eh, tbh, let's go Mace, and UnuThul next
Mace > Unu > Valky

Originally posted by Azronger
I'm conflicted between Mace and UnuThul. Mace's mind is vulnerable to mental assault, but then again, if he could reflect something as intangible as Force speed back on Palpatine, then who knows - TP might work too. After all, isn't the purpose of Vaapad to draw on darkness as a whole rather than any specific Force technique? They are merely manifestations of that darkness from which they are drawn from when utilized by darksiders, as I see it.

Am I making sense? Who knows, my thoughts on this aren't the most developed or coherent. Maybe someone else - preferrably not AP, Nephtard or LeGenD - could reinforce or undermine these notions. Is UnuThul a darksider?

That's part of the reason why I'm currently leaning Mace. Presumably UnuThul's raw potency eclipses Mace's own, but things like shatterpoint and Vaapad are huge modifiers. And yeah, apparently Vaapad is powerful enough to not only absorb and reflect lightning but intangible, passive demonstrations of power like Force speed as well.

It's been a while since I've read DNT, but if UnuThul's an actual dark sider, I could see Mace being his absolute worst nightmare in combat other than Luke.

For the last time. Vaapad does not backfire your opponent's abilities at them. Otherwise you would see Windu shooting lightning at Palpatine from his fingertips,

facepalm

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Is UnuThul a darksider?

Perhaps one of the NJO specialists will provide an answer.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
That's part of the reason why I'm currently leaning Mace. Presumably UnuThul's raw potency eclipses Mace's own, but things like shatterpoint and Vaapad are huge modifiers. And yeah, apparently Vaapad is powerful enough to not only absorb and reflect lightning but intangible, passive demonstrations of power like Force speed as well.

It's been a while since I've read DNT, but if UnuThul's an actual dark sider, I could see Mace being his absolute worst nightmare in combat other than Luke.

You reckon Mace could deflect UnuThul's telepathy? Or is there some other way he could avoid mental domination?

Valkorion

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Is UnuThul a darksider? Ant or Bart probably know this, but I skimmed through the Raynar - Luke "confrontation" in the first DN book, and it seems like UnuThul is described as a dark presence.

Voting Valkorion, who should probably be higher on the list, trolling aside. Mace shouldn't be considered here and who the hell is UnuThul anyway?

Unsock name? ^

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Unsock name? ^
Jack lol.

I'm probably backing UnuThul. I wouldn't be surprised if he's actually on par or above RotS Sidious, which is Mace's established limit with Vaapad(or perhaps even above that limit if you assume Sheev threw the fight).

His raw potency is above Windu's, he's more versatile, and I'm not sure if he's an all-out Dark Sider, so much as just a bad guy.

It is considered by the Jedi Order in the books that UnuThul and his colony are corrupted by the Dark Side, but it's nowhere clearly confirmed that Unu is a definitive Dark Side user.

On the other hand, FotJ makes it pretty clear that Raynar being UnuThul was an "episode with the Dark Side" or something like that.

Well, to me it sounds like UnuThul is a full darksider, tbh, which means Mace very well could replicate the level of his performance against Palpatine here. The one issue remaining is telepathy, to which I am still looking for answers, be they helpful or detrimental for Mace's chances.

Yeah, it's close, but I think Mace clearly has the best shot here.

OK.

So for proponents of the two most qualified candidates, Mace and UnuThul, I'd appreciate summations that are clear, concise, and well sourced.

Right now, I think UnuThul arguably has an advantage (and perhaps a potent one) in raw power, but Mace has an advantage in skill, experience, and out-of-context abilities like Vaapad and shatterpoint that lend themselves well towards clobbering dark siders.

I could lean either way. Currently I'm inclined to lean Mace, but I think there's an argument to be made for 'Thul.

I find myself agreeing with Tempest, but I don't think UnuThul has a power advantage at all. Mace was able to stalemate RotS Sheev, and there's nothing UnuThul has that Sheev wouldn't be capable of. My only concern for Mace is telepathy; other than that he seems to have this in the bag.

Mace being able to stalemate RotS Sheev was because he was fighting RotS Sheev. Assuming he carries that power with him into every fight (peak mental state or not) is a mistake as again, his abilities are almost entirely relative to the dark sider he is fighting.

Not that raw power translates remotely into the scope of Palpatine's abilities regardless.

not true

convincing

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
not true

I recall you wanted to make a post about that, a more detailed one. Did I miss it?

I still want to but haven't gotten around to it (aka like everything in my life).

Valkorion.

VALKORION (11):
- DarthAnt66
- Haschwalth
- Trocity
- King Joker
- AncientPower
- Nephthys
- Ursumeles
- Total Warrior
- XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
- Rebel95
- Freedon Nadd

MACE WINDU (5):
- The_Tempest
- Rockydonovang
- Dark-Kenshin
- JKBart
- i_like_swords

UNUTHUL (3):
- The Ellimist
- MythLord
- Selenial

DARTH KRAYT (2):
- Syndicate
- Sasukedc

DARTH NIHILUS (1):
- ZiggyStardust

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Mace being able to stalemate RotS Sheev was because he was fighting RotS Sheev. Assuming he carries that power with him into every fight (peak mental state or not) is a mistake as again, his abilities are almost entirely relative to the dark sider he is fighting.

Not that raw power translates remotely into the scope of Palpatine's abilities regardless.

Well, we dont need to assume that because even under base power Mace has been repeatedly stated to be on Yoda's level.

My take on it is as such- A force user cannot channelize more power than his potential would dictate. The same would apply to Mace even with his Vaapad. If he is functioning higher than his base power, it simply means he is channelizing more of his potential power via mastery of Vaapad (it being the channel for darkness and all, and bringing him to the "exact" level of Sidious), because as ROTS makes clear, Vaapad is more than just a lightsaber form. We see what happens when force users channelize power close to their potential, for example Obi Wan in Lone Wolf when he ran faster than any Jedi or Sith had in history( under desperate circumstances), felt his entire essence unravelling and his atoms flying apart. Obviously nothing of the sort happens to Mace. Which indicates that he was far from channelizing power close to his potential.

Unless you want to suggest that UnuThul is massively above ROTS Sidious in power, Mace can rival his raw power. I'd wager he could at least come close to it on his own base power.

Vaapad is Mace charging up his power and holding it within himself rather than releasing it. The result is an empowered ball of energy on the brink of exploding that Mace contains via will and mastery. As a result, the amount of energy available to Mace for augmentive purposes is, logically, increased. The channeling and superconducting loop is likely used to maintain this so Mace does not lose control. With someone like Sidious, it can presumably be maintained indefinitely.

Basically how I have always visualized it except, by charging, you mean instantly( or near enough anyways), right? Because I havent seen anything that suggests that for Vaapad to work, the force user has to gather power beforehand.

Fact Files doesn't specify, but given the terminology of "explosion of power" being contained within Mace, I imagine it at least takes several seconds to reach its peak (which I think is visibly shown in the fight as Mace gradually grows stronger).

Quote on the terminology? I agree b/w. This basically confirms my reply to triple b.

UnuThul almost mentally dominating Luke, who beats it mainly through external support (credit to Urs for finding it):

Raynar's eyes grew very dark around the edges, and suddenly Luke could see nothing else. The murky presence began to reach into his mind, trying to push its way inside his thoughts to read his intentions. Luke was astonished by its power and had to reach deeply into the Force to bolster his own strength. Though the probe was hardly subtle or refined, it felt as though it were being driven by a thousand Raynars, and he feared for a moment that in his surprise he would be overwhelmed by its sheer might.

Then he felt Mara pouring her own strength into him, and Saba and even Leia. Together they pushed the dusky hand back. Luke found himself looking once again into the blue, lidless eyes of their host, and he finally began to comprehend just how difficult it was going to be to reach Raynar Thul.


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UnuThul bending turbolaser barrages:


A few moments later a turbolaser barrage streaked toward the frigate. A deep pang of sorrow washed over Leia as she awaited the coming explosion. Whatever Raynar had become among the Killiks, he had once been a Jedi and a close friend of her children, and she knew that his loss would leave her feeling empty and dismal._

Then, as the strike neared Raynar's vessel, the dark weight inside vanished, and Leia's strength surged back. Still gasping, she was about to report who was aboard, but the turbolaser barrage suddenly veered away and blossomed in empty space._

Grendyl cried out in astonishment, a murmur of disbelief rose from the survivors on the command deck, and Leia finally understood why the Killik gunners were such bad shots._

They weren't trying to hit the Ackbar._

When the second volley of turbolaser fire also veered away at the last instant, Bwua'tu narrowed his eyes and turned to Leia._

"What is it?" he asked. "Some sort of new shield?"_

Leia shook her head. "It's Raynar Thul," she said. "And I think he's coming to take your ship."_


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Size of the Colony in the trillions:

The Chiss would grow even bolder and attack deeper into Colony territory. Trillions of Killiks and millions of Chiss would die, and the war would continue more ferociously than before.


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In other words, UnuThul has:


The best 1 v 1 TP feat in Star Wars
The best environmental telekinesis feat in Star Wars
The largest on-paper amp in Star Wars

Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
Quote on the terminology? I agree b/w. This basically confirms my reply to triple b.
https://i.imgur.com/Vk9Cm69.jpg

Ellm, what is so great about turbolaser barrages that you have Raynar deflecting them as "the" best feat on the environment in SW, even considering unamped and solo?

Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
Ellm, what is so great about turbolaser barrages that you have Raynar deflecting them as "the" best feat on the environment in SW, even considering unamped and solo?

Well if we take the source material telling us that turbolasers are lightspeed weapons with sublight tracers it's not even a question. But even if we don't, we know that this is the only time anyone has done so either technologically or with the Force other than via literal singularities, and that turbolasers seem unaffected by gravity or anything else. If either Force users or some technological substitute could bend away turbolaser barrages at a consistent rate, someone else would've done so. Consider:

- he has to catch the turbolasers right at the last moment, which is like the scale of fractions of a second (?)

- he has to bend the entire barrage away when every gravity well that doesn't have an event horizon has failed, e.g. interdictors which generate gravitational fields strong enough to pull ships out of hyperspace can't bend turoblasers

- he does this multiple times

How do turbolasers react to Dovin basals?

I was talking more on the lines of comparing their damage output. I get that they are lightspeed weapons, but they obviously have a firm upper limit. Which, I havent seen to be planetary or anything yet ( Dovin basals are). Excuse me for I havent really gone into the technological aspects of SW. Its possible he could have felt the cannons being charged up, is it?

IIRC the ROTS novel has singular turbolaser shots destroying entire villages. Or something like that anyways.

Anyways, even if turbolasers are ftl, it need not necessarily mean that Raynar is on that scale as well, as I said, precog might give him the awareness, not to mention sense.

Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
How do turbolasers react to Dovin basals?


I think sufficiently strong basals can arc them, but those are literal miniature singularities. The difference here is that Luke and Kyp moved those around with intense effort while UnuThul is constantly arcing away entire barrages designed to take out capital ships in the middle of a space battle.



There are incredibly high firepower figures for capital ships that remain controversial (e.g. that a star destroyer can turn a planetary surface to molten slag within hours), but that isn't really relevant here because the issue is moving the turbolasers, not tanking or powering them.



It was small towns.

The order is already ****ing retarded, so just pick one and pretend I voted for it.

Mace Windu

Ell, not sure why you cited UnuThul supposedly dominating Luke when know full power Luke just dominated him right back, since, you know, it actually happened? Not really a genuine feat, no.

Originally posted by Azronger
Ell, not sure why you cited UnuThul supposedly dominating Luke when know full power Luke just dominated him right back, since, you know, it actually happened? Not really a genuine feat, no.

The two events happening aren't mutually exclusive - I think the text makes it pretty clear that Luke was struggling against his TP.

Um, they kinda are mutually exclusive...

He fears he'll get overwhelmed and then receives support from Leia, Mara, etc. Granted he was taken by surprise, but he was also getting external aid sooo...

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
The order is already ****ing retarded, so just pick one and pretend I voted for it.
Lol pretty much

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Mace being able to stalemate RotS Sheev was because he was fighting RotS Sheev. Assuming he carries that power with him into every fight (peak mental state or not) is a mistake as again, his abilities are almost entirely relative to the dark sider he is fighting.

Not that raw power translates remotely into the scope of Palpatine's abilities regardless.
Circumstances for Mace matching Sids do not exempt Mace from being able to compete with him which all evidence suggests he can.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Is UnuThul a darksider?
Shouldn't matter, this isn't a versus.

Ant, I changed my vote to unuthul

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Circumstances for Mace matching Sids do not exempt Mace from being able to compete with him which all evidence suggests he can.

It depends on what you mean by "compete" - Mace was getting outmatched pretty clearly at the beginning of the fight. Here "compete" would just mean "not get killed immediately".

Regardless, I do buy that Mace Windu by that powerscaling + vaapad + superconducting loop + shatterpoint can defeat Valkorion - the only potential issue is how much of Windu's power you think is dependent on "building up" vaapad.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Uh, it is who the best combatant is.
'Which dpesn't always translate to beating someone in a 1 v 1 fight.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
It depends on what you mean by "compete" - Mace was getting outmatched pretty clearly at the beginning of the fight.
What are you referring to. Because I don't recall any source showing Mace clearly outmatched at the beginning. In the senior novel, vapaad is only mentioned after Mace and Sidious have already torn everything in the room they're fighting in to pieces. Mace then is partially able to deflect a force blast without vapaad despite being caught off guard. The script has amputee Mace deflecting Sidious's lightning for a bit before being overwhelmed.

The notion there's a great disparity between the two without vapaad is both heavily contradicted and unsupported.

The idea Mace is close is further supported by favorable comparisons to Yoda who sources have even called him > than. I realize this is a minority, but given you've argued among similar lines to defend the claim that Sidious and Anakin are close, I think you'd agree with me that there being evidence present for Mace suggests Mace is close to Yoda/Sidious.

Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
Well, we dont need to assume that because even under base power Mace has been repeatedly stated to be on Yoda's level.Sure he is. Some one should really raise these sources so they can be put under proper scrutiny. As per Dark Rendevous he's Dooku level at best. The same source that marks the Count as Yoda's clear inferior.

Which is why Vaapad transforms him into a highly effective superconductor, or rather makes him able to channel immense amounts of Force with zero resistance. Without that ability then yes, I would assume the energy would annihilate him. Fyi, the RotS novel goes as far as to say that the dark side energy doesn't even touch him when passing in and out of his body:Again, he's become a superconductor.

Regardless this isn't particularly relevant, as it still doesn't preclude him needing an external source (i.e. Sheev) it "charge" himself up in the first place, in which case, his power is still relevant to his opponent.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Sure he is. Some one should really raise these sources so they can be put under proper scrutiny. As per Dark Rendevous he's Dooku level at best.
Nope. Dark Rendevous stated he was Dooku's equal. The "perhaps" was in reference to ther possibly being other jedi who could equal Dooku (Anakin). And that was still a few months out from the war. As of ROTS, he's surpassed Dooku being an 8 bordering 9 rather than a pure 8. You can't restrict Mace based on where you hold Dooku. Mace borders on Sid's level per Gillard, has the word of god saying he can compete with Sids, as well as a minority of quotes putting him equal or above Sidious's equal in Yoda.

All evidence suggests Mace is close to Sidious. and none suggests otherwise. So we would logically go with the former rather than the latter.

Right and the Fact Files quotes are as of AotC, before the war, as I recall and have pointed out previously. Now is someone going to provide them or?

And as we know Windu borders on 9 and can compete with Sids because of Vaapad - this proves nothing in regards to his base potential.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
touch him when passing in and out of his body:Again, he's become a superconductor.

Regardless this isn't particularly relevant, as it still doesn't preclude him needing an external source (i.e. Sheev) it "charge" himself up in the first place, in which case, his power is still relevant to his opponent.

As per DR Dooku is also the Jedi Order's most gifted apprentice. I needn't point out that this is blatantly false.

Even as of ROTS sources have him nearly equal go Yoda in power. Mace being equal to Yoda isn't by Vaapad at all(which is never even mentioned in these sources), it is stated across many timelines, not just ROTS.

Your statement about the power "not touching" him is in regards to Palpatine's lightning not touching him, not that the power he channelizes is somehow independent of his capacity. A simple refutation is in order when we clearly see that Mace is strained by deflecting Palpatine's lightning. There is no zero resistance at all, he is simply channeling more power from his potential reserves than he does under base conditions. He charges his own power and unleashes it in a matter of seconds, Vaapad merely creates the perfect channel for it. Which is applicable for anyone, not just Palpatine.

Before I forget, there is also him deflecting Sidious's force blast, when both not in Vaapad and when distracted. This merely adds topping to the cake. All said and done, there is the vast majority of evidence putting him, even at base level, in the tier of Yoda/Sidious.

Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
Before I forget, there is also him deflecting Sidious's force blast, when both not in Vaapad and when distracted. This merely adds topping to the cake.

He, somewhat countered the push, he didn't outright deflect it.

Yeah, but he was distracted. He also negated most of the force push. They were fighting near the window anyway, which means that he was deflected a meter or so. Clearly negating most of the blast meant to send his shooting out of the window.

Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
Yeah, but he was distracted. He also negated most of the force push. It more altered his trajectory, but I will agree he wasn't fully dominated.

Originally posted by Beniboybling

And as we know Windu borders on 9 and can compete with Sids because of Vaapad
Says who?

With Vapaad, Mace matched Sidious as a 9. That Mace's ability to compete with Sidious is tied to Vapaad is a claim you've yet to provide any proof for.

Originally posted by Haschwalth
It more altered his trajectory, but I will agree he wasn't fully dominated.
He wasn't dominated at all. He was off guard and had his defense down.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
He wasn't dominated at all. He was off guard and had his defense down.

Dude, he barely managed to alter his trajectory. And no he only had his vaapad down, he would be dead if his guard/defense was down. He not so retarded as you would think, considering literally moments before three of the Jedi orders best had been cut down.

The ****, he was off guard. ever heard of precognition.

Originally posted by Haschwalth
It more altered his trajectory, but I will agree he wasn't fully dominated.

No, he mostly negated the blast as well. Google stanchion and check the images. If he hadn't negated most of the power of the blast, there is no way that he will "bounce" off the "rope in between two supports" type thing we see in airports and important functions.

Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
No, he mostly negated the blast as well. Google stanchion and check the images. If he hadn't negated most of the power of the blast, there is no way that he will "bounce" off the "rope in between two supports" type thing we see in airports and important functions.
The bouncing off makes more sense now,
I agree he negated a good proportion of it now.

Is anyone willing to post the passage of the Windu vs. Sidious fight?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Is anyone willing to post the passage of the Windu vs. Sidious fight?

Also, Mace deflected Sidious' Force Lightning in a non-Vaapad state and didn't instantly die according to the RotS script, although I'm not sure if that's Legends.

VALKORION (11):
- DarthAnt66
- Haschwalth
- Trocity
- King Joker
- AncientPower
- Nephthys
- Ursumeles
- Total Warrior
- XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
- Rebel95
- Freedon Nadd

MACE WINDU (5):
- The_Tempest
- Dark-Kenshin
- JKBart
- i_like_swords
- Lord Stark

UNUTHUL (4):
- The Ellimist
- MythLord
- Selenial
- Rockydonovang

DARTH KRAYT (2):
- Syndicate
- Sasukedc

DARTH NIHILUS (1):
- ZiggyStardust

Valkorion is the most versatile Force user listed, by far actually, given his wide array of esoteric Sith Knowledge and techniques - plus, the raw power advantage should be in his favor as well.

Funnily enough the tournaments have shown that kmc is still alive.

Change my vote to Mace.

**** it, I'll vote Mace too

Mace vapaad's Valkorion, gg.

Mace.

Mace in your **** face

Originally posted by Azronger
Also, Mace deflected Sidious' Force Lightning in a non-Vaapad state and didn't instantly die according to the RotS script, although I'm not sure if that's Legends.

Because he is the most poweful motherfvcker Jedi that ever lived. And Darth Bane was the most powerful motherfvcker Sith Lord who ever lived.

Originally posted by Haschwalth


What about the beginning?

Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
As per DR Dooku is also the Jedi Order's most gifted apprentice. I needn't point out that this is blatantly false.Why? Yoda is presumably excluding himself and Windu from the list and Anakin is 'disqualified' as a loose cannon. On the other hand given Yoda's intimate knowledge of both Windu & Dooku I see no reason to dismiss him as an authority on their abilities. Which he is.

Right these are all I've been able to dredge up: If you have some more provide them, because given that Windu being as per Gillard second only to Yoda in the Jedi Order (quite literally alongside him in the pecking order), there is no reason to assume they are claiming anything more, especially when some of the same sources described Yoda as "unparalleled" and Windu's pre-RotS abilities fall woefully short of the alternative.

On what possible grounds? Read the sentence again:At no point does Palpatine's lightning physically pass into (and out) of Mace, his "power" however does, and seemingly "without touching him." Again, Vaapad is described as creating a superconductor, let's be very clear on what that means:I won't delve into the science because the author likely didn't either. But the inference is clear, Vaapad transforms Windu into a near perfect conduit, enhancing his ability to channel the Force and limit the friction to a point of practical non-contact.

To your own argument, sure, as by that argument Windu should have started experiencing the effects that you previously described. He did not, only began to lose control over the lightning. Lightning that was described as beyond Vaapad - not Windu as an individual, but the form (as a superconductor) itself.

Through Vaapad he channels his own inner darkness and the darkness of his opponent, but no, Windu absolutely cannot reach this level of performance without a dark-sider megalith like Sidious to draw from. And his ability to do so certainly isn't limited by his potential.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Says who?Gillard. Windu taps into the dark side to reach nine, and in Legends Windu taps into the dark side using Vaapad.

But without it he's an 8, guess who else is an 8? Dooku, Kenobi, Maul, and not Yoda. This is very clear cut, he uses Vaapad to cheat.

Is there any substance to this other than semantics? To compete and to stalemate are not mutually exclusive. Now let's look at what Lucas did, or rather didn't say:

"You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor..."

Namely, in what context. You're using this as a carte blanche to claim Windu can compete with Sidious tier fighters anytime anywhere. And yet Windu stalemating Sidious in RotS, with Vaapad, at that time and that alone, fulfils the burden of Lucas' statement just fine, and there is no reason to assume he is implying anything else.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
"You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor..."

Namely, in what context. You're using this as a carte blanche to claim Windu can compete with Sidious tier fighters anytime anywhere. And yet Windu stalemating Sidious in RotS, with Vaapad, at that time and that alone, fulfils the burden of Lucas' statement just fine, and there is no reason to assume he is implying anything else.

lul, that's bullshit. If Lucas meant what you are saying then the quote would look like this: "You have to be either amped Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor."

All he said was that you have to be Windu or Yoda. Not a specific level of power. He didn't describe the means of victory, only that only those two characters are capable of it, somehow.

Interesting that he left Annie out of the quote.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
lul, that's bullshit. If Lucas meant what you are saying then the quote would look like this: "You have to be either amped Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor." Yes because Lucas uses words liked "amped" and actually cares.

Originally posted by ILS
All he said was that you have to be Windu or Yoda. Not a specific level of power. He didn't describe the means of victory, only that only those two characters are capable of it, somehow.
The full quote is: "You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor," Lucas says. "If Anakin hadn't got all beat up, he could've beat the Emperor."

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Yes because Lucas uses words liked "amped" and actually cares.

The point is feg, you don't say you have to be a specific someone to compete with Sidious if that someone actually can't compete without circumstances. It makes no sense.

I'm voting Valk. Why the hell does my vote not count, Ant?

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
The point is feg, you don't say you have to be a specific someone to compete with Sidious if that someone actually can't compete without circumstances. It makes no sense.

But Vaapad is an ability mastered by Mace. There's no circunstances at all if the Jedi can access it by his own merits.