Canon Difficulties #1: A Critique of the "subjectivity of the EU"

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DarthSkywalker0
Disclaimer: This only applies to Legends

The "EU is subjective". This is a claim; I constantly hear when discussing star wars. It particularly shows up in regards to Anakin wank. There are two quotes I have seen which supposedly purport this notion.



Leland claims in this quote that the EU serves as a "foggy mirror" of true continuity. I think the question asked was certainly leading, but regardless Chee contradicts his superiors and himself. Sue Rostini, Chee's former boss, has stated,



This certainly does not come across as a foggy mirror of the genuine artifact. But, Rostoni is not alone in her advocacy for the EU's canonicity and validity. Perhaps, the most viable source on this topic is Howard Roffman. Howard Roffman is the creator and approver of the EU. He serves as 2nd in command to Kathlene Kennady and has intimate knowledge of canon and the universe as a whole.





Roffman served as Lucas's right-hand man for over 30 years his knowledge on this subject is undoubtedly reliable. We also have Chee's predecessor Allan Kausch who had advocated for the EU's validity. I mentioned up above that Chee has contradicted himself, and this patently true. Here are multiple quotes by Chee which disavow the notion of parallel universes.



This next quote is the most damning.



Chee has also said there is only one continuity.



But George actually does try to bind himself to the material.



And as previously mentioned Lucas is involved in basically every major decision.









And to quote Lucas,



Lucas was especially active in the early-stages of the EU. Every darkhorse comic being approved personally by him. I hope this clears up some misconceptions.

Azronger
Wrong forum, good compilation of quotes

The Ellimist
I think you're using a somewhat vague definition of "subjective"; the foggy mirrors interpretation is very different from the parallel universe one.

DarthSkywalker0
Originally posted by The Ellimist
I think you're using a somewhat vague definition of "subjective"; the foggy mirrors interpretation is very different from the parallel universe one.

Well, the idea of it being a foggy mirror just is not corroborated by the vast majority of quotes. Chee has stated that there is no g-canon rather its all one thing. And Roffman says its completely accurate to Lucas's vision. And Ant has spoken about the subjective stuff.

The Ellimist
Originally posted by DarthSkywalker0
Well, the idea of it being a foggy mirror just is not corroborated by the vast majority of quotes. Chee has stated that there is no g-canon rather its all one thing. And Roffman says its completely accurate to Lucas's vision. And Ant has spoken about the subjective stuff.

That doesn't contradict the foggy mirrors idea, which maps onto the real world pretty well; different sources of evidence in real life also have varying levels of accuracy (e.g. DNA testing vs. eyewitness testimony) that each help us paint different approximations of the "truth". Likewise, we know that the foggy mirrors model works to some degree at the very least because sources will literally give different lines of dialogue for the same events and we presumably know that the Star Wars universe doesn't really look like, say, a cartoon or animation.

Freedon Nadd
Welp, due to the fact that most EU-during/post movies follow Lucas' vision is sort of subjectivity. Only TOR is free of Lucas' canon because it doesn't conflict with his characters.

DarthSkywalker0
Originally posted by The Ellimist
That doesn't contradict the foggy mirrors idea, which maps onto the real world pretty well; different sources of evidence in real life also have varying levels of accuracy (e.g. DNA testing vs. eyewitness testimony) that each help us paint different approximations of the "truth". Likewise, we know that the foggy mirrors model works to some degree at the very least because sources will literally give different lines of dialogue for the same events and we presumably know that the Star Wars universe doesn't really look like, say, a cartoon or animation.

Chee has said that there is only one continuity. There are no different levels. the G-canon idea is a myth as I will discuss in my next blog. It is meant to be directly accurate and they are constrained by Lucas completely. To quote Howard Roffman,

We wanted to send a clear message to our fans that everything we do is part of that overall saga.” ~Howard Roffman, Executive Vice President, Franchise Management.

The Ellimist
Originally posted by DarthSkywalker0
Chee has said that there is only one continuity. There are no different levels. the G-canon idea is a myth as I will discuss in my next blog. It is meant to be directly accurate and they are constrained by Lucas completely. To quote Howard Roffman,

We wanted to send a clear message to our fans that everything we do is part of that overall saga.” ~Howard Roffman, Executive Vice President, Franchise Management.

Sorry but that doesn't address what I was saying at all.

DarthSkywalker0
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Sorry but that doesn't address what I was saying at all.

Your statement:



There is no variance in continuity. The only source that is more valid then the rest is the movies. There is just one continuity. The EU is not a foggy mirror of Lucas's true vision. It is a direct representation, as confirmed by Lucas's right-hand man.

The Ellimist
Originally posted by DarthSkywalker0
Your statement:



There is no variance in continuity. The only source that is more valid then the rest is the movies. There is just one continuity. The EU is not a foggy mirror of Lucas's true vision. It is a direct representation, as confirmed by Lucas's right-hand man.

That there's one continuity doesn't mean that everything is perfectly accurate for reasons I provided (e.g. how do you deal with conflicting descriptions of equivalent events? Is the Star Wars universe constantly transitioning between cartoon and live action color schemes?)

Besides, if our metric is Lucas's vision (mine isn't, but yours appears to be) I don't think him "approving" a random NJO book put on his desk one morning is the same as him actually directing and meticulously revising one of the movies.

DarthSkywalker0
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Sorry but that doesn't address what I was saying at all.

How you mentioned differing dialogue, but that is just an error on the continuity editors, but the sources themselves are all equal in value and are all accurate with the films.

DarthSkywalker0
Originally posted by The Ellimist
That there's one continuity doesn't mean that everything is perfectly accurate for reasons I provided (e.g. how do you deal with conflicting descriptions of equivalent events? Is the Star Wars universe constantly transitioning between cartoon and live action color schemes?)

Besides, if our metric is Lucas's vision (mine isn't, but yours appears to be) I don't think him "approving" a random NJO book put on his desk one morning is the same as him actually directing and meticulously revising one of the movies.

Alright a few things, the differing dialogue is poor continuity editing. Lucas was involved in each NJO book, every big EU event, and looked at every dark horse series.

The Ellimist
Originally posted by DarthSkywalker0
Alright a few things, the differing dialogue is poor continuity editing.

I doubt it. The RotS novelization for instance was line-edited by Lucas and yet has drastically different retellings of events that would be trivial to just match to the movie (thankfully Stover didn't do that) - some of the different dialogue and events he uses are obviously not like him misremembering RotS or misreading the script lol.



Um sure you're welcome to believe that Lucas cared about Legacy of the Force: Fury as much as he did about Revenge of the Sith.

DarthSkywalker0
Originally posted by The Ellimist
I doubt it. The RotS novelization for instance was line-edited by Lucas and yet has drastically different retellings of events that would be trivial to just match to the movie (thankfully Stover didn't do that) - some of the different dialogue and events he uses are obviously not like him misremembering RotS or misreading the script lol.

They are all meant to be 100% accurate but Lucas would still have authority in a battle. But, it is all meant to be one continuity.

DarthSkywalker0
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Um sure you're welcome to believe that Lucas cared about Legacy of the Force: Fury as much as he did about Revenge of the Sith.

Of course, he didn't. But he was apprised of all major events to ensure they stayed consistent with his vision.

The Ellimist
Originally posted by DarthSkywalker0
They are all meant to be 100% accurate but Lucas would still have authority in a battle. But, it is all meant to be one continuity.

So all sources are equal, but some are more equal than others? stick out tongue

Originally posted by DarthSkywalker0
Of course, he didn't. But he was apprised of all major events to ensure they stayed consistent with his vision.

Yes but since you acknowledge there isn't 100% accuracy, obviously some sources get more attention than others, which is the point - it's a relative scale, not a black or white thing, even if that's by imperfection rather than design.

I do suppose you've reneged on the TFU-exaggerated argument then.

DarthSkywalker0
Originally posted by The Ellimist
So all sources are equal, but some are more equal than others? stick out tongue


They are all meant to be equal, but there can be imperfections. Think of it like canon today.



Well, the game itself can be exaggerated, because I am truly unsure how video games play into the true continuity.

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