Afterthought vs Spider-Man

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cdtm
For all Zack's hype, I'm not seeing how AF's power beats having Spider-Sense, + his stat boosts.

But lets see.

Who wins?

Zack M
Already been done here. But, AF can out react the Ray (Who was going faster than light speeds), so I don't think Spidey brings anything new to the table.

Smurph
Except for pre-cog.

Zack M
Yes, AT is a pre-cog.

RealityWarper
Spider-man uses his Spider-Fu and kick Afterthought's ass.

Stoic
Originally posted by Zack M
Already been done here. But, AF can out react the Ray (Who was going faster than light speeds), so I don't think Spidey brings anything new to the table.

Don't you mean that that he knew what the Ray was going to do before he did it? In that case Spider Man has out reacted Firelord, who has flight speeds multiple times faster than light. Everyone remembers how he went on to majorly upset Firelord to the point that PIS was likely ruled on every battle forum in existence. But PIS does happen in both Universe's. Especially when land locked guys are able to defeat guys that never had to get anywhere near them to win.

RealityWarper
Originally posted by Stoic
Don't you mean that that he knew what the Ray was going to do before he did it? In that case Spider Man has out reacted Firelord, who has flight speeds multiple times faster than light. Everyone remembers how he went on to majorly upset Firelord to the point that PIS was likely ruled on every battle forum in existence. But PIS does happen in both Universe's. Especially when land locked guys are able to defeat guys that never had to get anywhere near them to win.

I don't see the fight against Firelord as PIS.

That's mostly that Spider-man used his abilities very well to attack FL from all angles.

Smurph
Originally posted by Zack M
Yes, AT is a pre-cog. Yes, so is Spider-Man, which marks a major difference between him and the Ray. Spider-sense is a lesser degree of pre-cog than what AT is working with, but it still changes the match-up. Especially because of Parker's superior speed etc.

AT might win, but it's not exactly a settled matter.

leonidas

Zack M
Originally posted by Smurph
Yes, so is Spider-Man, which marks a major difference between him and the Ray. Spider-sense is a lesser degree of pre-cog than what AT is working with, but it still changes the match-up. Especially because of Parker's superior speed etc.

AT might win, but it's not exactly a settled matter.

Midnighter (DC) has similar abilities and AT destroyed him. Midnighter needed prep to take him down.

Zack M
And in terms of speed, we saw Midnighter outreact a speedster who was a TRUE speedster (Said to be close to Flash in that respect).

cdtm

Digi
Originally posted by cdtm
If DC is paying him, WHATEVER they're paying him, I'd bet they're not paying him nearly enough.

Really? I'd say they're paying him too much if he's getting a dime. Irrational fans worsen my enjoyment of characters and franchises. Fortunately, with him it's a whole damn company, so it's more nebulous than most super-fans. And I pay less attention to vs. threads than I used to. But the anti-fanboy urge is strong, and I can point to specific old-time KMC members that sparked my indifference toward certain characters.

Also, I mean, it's KMC. After years of Admin neglect, we're the backwash in the Pepsi of comic fandom. Surely there are more populated internet boards to send their minions to.

Stoic
Originally posted by Digi
Really? I'd say they're paying him too much if he's getting a dime. Irrational fans worsen my enjoyment of characters and franchises. Fortunately, with him it's a whole damn company, so it's more nebulous than most super-fans. And I pay less attention to vs. threads than I used to. But the anti-fanboy urge is strong, and I can point to specific old-time KMC members that sparked my indifference toward certain characters.

Also, I mean, it's KMC. After years of Admin neglect, we're the backwash in the Pepsi of comic fandom. Surely there are more populated internet boards to send their minions to.

Now everyone is wondering who you're talking about.

You better not be talking about me brah, or I'll invade you dreams like Freddy Krueger. LOL.

Smurph
Originally posted by Digi
Really? I'd say they're paying him too much if he's getting a dime. Irrational fans worsen my enjoyment of characters and franchises. Fortunately, with him it's a whole damn company, so it's more nebulous than most super-fans. And I pay less attention to vs. threads than I used to. But the anti-fanboy urge is strong, and I can point to specific old-time KMC members that sparked my indifference toward certain characters. That's typically true, yeah. Sometimes, though, they can successfully spark a whole new fan base for HULK KILLER HUMANOID!

Originally posted by Digi
Also, I mean, it's KMC. After years of Admin neglect, we're the backwash in the Pepsi of comic fandom. Surely there are more populated internet boards to send their minions to. lol, painfully true.

DarkSaint85
AT wins in the way I describe.

1. AT swings a punch.
2. Spidey senses warn Spidey, and he blocks/dodges/whatever.
3. AT knew exactly what he was going to do (let's say, block). So he can counter appropriately with an attack.

It would take a while, but it will get the job done, slowly.

SamZED
I'll try to make it a debate. big grin

I certainly see AT connecting this way a number of times, but basic knowledge + combat savviness will make it easy for SM to adapt. At the end of the day that second counter will be just another incoming attack that Pete will sense and be able to dodge thanks to his speed. Plus seeing 5 seconds into the future is not an auto win. Tbh I look at AT reacting to a light speed attack the same way I look at DS tagging the Flash. If the guy himself is not a speedster that means that the speedster he tagged did a dumb thing by not reacting to a guy he can perceive with light speed reflexes. Regardless of the precog, it's incompetence. I can see Spider-man using web cartridges to his advantage here.

DarkSaint85
The guy was a speedster too, I reckon. Too few showings to say definitely, but Ray was explicitly at lightspeed.

Like dodging the light from a lamp.....you just can't do it.

Plus he had the strength to mess Lobo up pretty badly. And we all know Lobos regen factor.

Eventually, I just see it as AT forcing Spidey into a corner, move wise. So there's nothing he can do to block punches etc.

Zack M
Yeah, AT definitely has enhancements other than his pre-cog. I mean he did mess up Midnighter rather casually, and Midnighter has low super speed. Midnighter's computer brain gives him Spidey type awareness, too, and is actually MORE versatile than Spidey sense.

His suit is just insane, too:

https://i.imgur.com/7NAvJU8.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/LAG0IAQ.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/QlrVYsu.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/zl1Nd1A.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/hDmSsZs.jpg

Zack M
Midnighter is fast, too. He put on his costume at super speeds, faster than the naked eye can see. stick out tongue


https://i.imgur.com/sL6QKya.jpg

Midnighter Vs a speedster. This is how good his battle computer is:

https://i.imgur.com/JIQHred.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/vuYMqC1.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/WmtVV82.jpg

Zack M
Now, Midnighter Vs Afterthought:

https://i.imgur.com/fdT11VJ.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/3yMZGaI.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/BOBGzif.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/o8TRPfY.jpg

Digi
Originally posted by Stoic
Now everyone is wondering who you're talking about.

You better not be talking about me brah, or I'll invade you dreams like Freddy Krueger. LOL.

Is it too late to change what I meant earlier?

stick out tongue

Originally posted by Smurph
That's typically true, yeah. Sometimes, though, they can successfully spark a whole new fan base for HULK KILLER HUMANOID!

lol, painfully true.

Hey now, HKH demanded its rightful fanbase.

I suppose we should delineate between parody and bias, though. In the former, yes, a lot of great work has been done to increase interest in a character.

cdtm
Originally posted by Zack M
Now, Midnighter Vs Afterthought:

https://i.imgur.com/fdT11VJ.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/3yMZGaI.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/BOBGzif.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/o8TRPfY.jpg

Well, I'm convinced.

Spidey totally destroys MN. thumb up

Zack M
Why is that?

cdtm
Originally posted by Zack M
Why is that?

Spider-Sense is essentially "future sense" magic.

Zack M
As potent as AT's?

cdtm
It saw through Daken's phermone ninja tricks.

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by cdtm
It saw through Daken's phermone ninja tricks.

When Daken was toying with Parker and not using his pheromones to the full effect, yeah.

Anyway, this Afterthought dude is different. I guess it could be a stalemate TILL Afterthought runs out of stamina and gets one-shotted...

Zack M
AT never runs out of stamina, per the suit. Unless cdtm isn't using the suit.

StiltmanFTW
So he has infinite stamina...?

Zack M
Read the Lobo fight.

StiltmanFTW
What are his limits, then?

Zack M
Don't really know. He fought Lobo with the suit Prometheus built for him. Seemed that they fought for a while, because Lobo was pretty phucked up and he seemed tired. And this is LOBO we're talking about.

AT would destroy Spidey, IMO. If he can put a hurting on Lobo, then he can pummel Parker.

Zack M
Here is the Ray incident. Owned Black Canary at the same time.

https://i.imgur.com/Na79ViX.jpg

Stoic
Originally posted by Zack M
Don't really know. He fought Lobo with the suit Prometheus built for him. Seemed that they fought for a while, because Lobo was pretty phucked up and he seemed tired. And this is LOBO we're talking about.

AT would destroy Spidey, IMO. If he can put a hurting on Lobo, then he can pummel Parker.

He did beat Lobo, but he isn't anywhere near as powerful as Lobo, Lobo was simply unable to lay a glove on him like Firelord was unable to hit Spider Man. In this instance Lobo lost to PIS just like Firelord lost to PIS if you consider that Lobo could have easily torn up a mountain sized piece of earth and thrown it at him. Just like Firelord could have used a monstrous AOE attack on Spidey.

You can't compare Lobo to Spidey and say that because of whatever therefore AT wins.

DarkSaint85
But here's the thing - Lobo has one of the best regens in DC. If not the best.

And he was getting absolutely killed there.

carver9
Spiderman have better fts tbh. One fight isn't changing this.

Stoic
Doesn't really matter. Lobo isn't Spider Man. They both have two different approaches to battle. Lobo goes in for the KO regardless of the damage that he may take in order to achieve it. Spider Man skirts the outsides relying on webs and precognitive abilities in an attempt to avoid being hit. He's also much more agile than Lobo, who AT exploited in a one sided beat down.

carver9
He is faster as well.

Stoic
Originally posted by carver9
He is faster as well.


No he isn't. Lobo is faster overall. Spidey is simply more slippery, or harder to hit due to his ability to perceive threats before they hit him. AT beat Lobo down the exact same way that Iron Man beat up Captain America during the first Civil Wars series.

StiltmanFTW
Lobo can't match Parker's speed feats. And little feats in that department he did have disappeared with Nu52 and Rebirth.

carver9
Originally posted by Stoic
No he isn't. Lobo is faster overall. Spidey is simply more slippery, or harder to hit due to his ability to perceive threats before they hit him. AT beat Lobo down the exact same way that Iron Man beat up Captain America during the first Civil Wars series.

Sigh... Spiderman is faster (SMH).

Zack M
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Lobo can't match Parker's speed feats. And little feats in that department he did have disappeared with Nu52 and Rebirth.

That is old school Lobo, not the DCnU one.

StiltmanFTW
Rebirth Lobo ain't exactly oldschool. He's got a clean slate.

Zack M
His origin is the same. Most rebirth characters are the same, from what I understand. It's just that Manahttan messed with time.

StiltmanFTW
Stop. Just stop.

Killer Croc, for example, has a completely different origin. We don't know shit at this point.

Not that "classic" Lobo had much speed, anyway...

Zack M
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Stop. Just stop.

Killer Croc, for example, has a completely different origin. We don't know shit at this point.

Not that "classic" Lobo had much speed, anyway...

Not much speed? Superman stated that he was surprised on his speed.

StiltmanFTW
He was surprised with Grundy's speed as well...

And Lobo has devolved to shit since that experience, being outmanoeuvred by Hitman and Six Pack...

Zack M
Same with Flash and the others, but that doesn't mean they're not fast. Lobo has gone up against speedsters (Including Flash) on numerous occasions. Enough to say he has super speed himeslf.

StiltmanFTW
He may have some low degree of super speed. And can't use it well.

Spidey would dominate his ass in every speed contest imaginable.

Zack M
laughing out loud keep dreaming.

Anyway, we already seen AT outreach to super speedsters so it doesn't matter.

StiltmanFTW
I'm not dreaming. Spiderpussy is just that much faster.

Wasn't that a noname speedster that AT tagged...

Zack M
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
I'm not dreaming. Spiderpussy is just that much faster.

Wasn't that a noname speedster that AT tagged...

You are, and The Ray isn't a noname.

StiltmanFTW
laughing out loud

How much they're paying you, seriously?

Zack M
The feats do not lie.

StiltmanFTW
Yeah. Spidey would dance circles around Lobo without breaking a sweat.

Zack M
Lobo would just need one swipe, so it doesn't matter. He'll connect, because Spidey doesn't bring anything new to the table.

Stoic
Lobo is faster when it comes to traveling speed. Spiderman is more agile in terms of fighting speeds. You can't really compare the two because of their fighting styles and how much different they are. Lobo would definitely reach a 10 mile marker before Spiderman. He can leap to the point of flight. You do get that right Carver?

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Lobo can't match Parker's speed feats. And little feats in that department he did have disappeared with Nu52 and Rebirth.

Point is, though, AT was damaging him faster than his regen was healing him.

And whilst we talk about AT not having many feats, the Ray explicitly tried going at lightspeed. No power scaling there, no 'these are lasers, so they MUST be at lightspeed!' type arguments. AT wasn't even fazed.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Stoic
Lobo is faster when it comes to traveling speed. Spiderman is more agile in terms of fighting speeds. You can't really compare the two because of their fighting styles and how much different they are. Lobo would definitely reach a 10 mile marker before Spiderman. He can leap to the point of flight. You do get that right Carver?

stick out tongue

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-xtHOtjgNjz0/T8oxOVqwcVI/AAAAAAAALfA/E5UnNhCJB2g/s1600/Amazing%2BSpider-Man%2B-%2B224%2B03.jpg

2 miles in 5 seconds, means 24 miles a minute. Or 1440 mph. That's Mach 2 lol.

8swords
i always thought that the SS is more mystic in a sense,that if AT saw 5 sec in the future and lets say spidermanwould backstab him, so AT will do a backhand in preparation for what he saw in the future, Spiderman would just react to whatever AT does currently, i mean he is agile/fast enough to react/do that. just my two cents here..

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by 8swords
i always thought that the SS is more mystic in a sense,that if AT saw 5 sec in the future and lets say spidermanwould backstab him, so AT will do a backhand in preparation for what he saw in the future, Spiderman would just react to whatever AT does currently, i mean he is agile/fast enough to react/do that. just my two cents here..

Unless the reactions are all exactly what AT wants him to do...

8swords
maybe a time frame would be better here, hmm soo in 5 seconds spiderman would jump over AT and backstabbed him.. soo in 4.5secs AT will do a backhand, in spidermans case for me, in the span of .5 secs he would sense something and evade/counter at will in the span of .4 secs.. its a matter of who could outthink faster..

oh and asfor the ray example.. he doesnt have precog.. soo meh..

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by 8swords
maybe a time frame would be better here, hmm soo in 5 seconds spiderman would jump over AT and backstabbed him.. soo in 4.5secs AT will do a backhand, in spidermans case for me, in the span of .5 secs he would sense something and evade/counter at will in the span of .4 secs.. its a matter of who could outthink faster..

oh and asfor the ray example.. he doesnt have precog.. soo meh..

But AT will know that Spidey will evade/counter his first blow (remember, it doesn't switch on and off).

So when Spidey evades the backhand, he just...leaps straight into the spinning kick that AT launched. Because AT knew that he was going to evade the backhand, and acted accordingly.

But then, neither is Spidey lightspeed, lol.

Try standing at the doorway to a room, by the lightswitch. You're the one in control, so you know EXACTLY when the light will come on.

Are you telling me, just because you know when the light comes on, you'll be able to dodge the light? Jump out of the way of the light rays?

SamZED
Imo it's not that simple.
This has been posted before I think but it's still relevant.
Madam Web has spider-man's stats and can see the future. In fact her ability is superior to AT's as she's not limited to 5 seconds. And she still can't connect once on Parker. That's without his spider sense.
So AT's power is by no means an auto win. IMO it comes down to their stats. And it's a bit early to tell with AT. I honestly do not believe that he is meant to be a speedster, more like it was just meant to be a cool feat and a display of his time related power. However, if he'll be written as a speedster instead of a guy with enhanced stats I'll give him the win of course. For now he's DC's Mister X I think. They'll probably have him struggle with Dick Grayson in 6 months or so.

https://s14.postimg.org/4x86sgajl/IMG_0451.jpg

Zack M
DC's Mister X? Mister X got clobbered by Quicksilver. AT is MUCH more formidable. He kicked Lobo's ass. Has Madame Web done something similar to that magnitude? Has Madame Webb outreacted someone FTL?

SamZED
Mister X in a sense that he's the new flavor of the month on KMC. Not power wise.
No, she hasn't. But she does have a similar power. That was the purpose of the scan. Stats is a different story though. And until I see a scan of AT keeping up with Flash in an actual combat that AT's feat to me will remain just that, a cool feat. I am not yet ready to believe that AT is faster than Spider-man because of that scan alone. The same way I don't put Deathstroke's speed above every other meta just because he occasionally tags Flash thanks to strategy/experience/CIS. So no reason to believe that he'll be more successful than Madam Web in tagging Parker. And Spider-man has hurt herald level
characters as well. But like I said, if he's shown to be faster than Spider-man in future appearances I'll change my mind.

DarkSaint85
Tbf,didn't Lobo eventually win?

Zack M
Originally posted by SamZED
Mister X in a sense that he's the new flavor of the month on KMC. Not power wise.
No, she hasn't. But she does have a similar power. That was the purpose of the scan. Stats is a different story though. And until I see a scan of AT keeping up with Flash in an actual combat that AT's feat to me will remain just that, a cool feat. I am not yet ready to believe that AT is faster than Spider-man because of that scan alone. The same way I don't put Deathstroke's speed above every other meta just because he occasionally tags Flash thanks to strategy/experience/CIS. So no reason to believe that he'll be more successful than Madam Web in tagging Parker. And Spider-man has hurt herald level
characters as well. But like I said, if he's shown to be faster than Spider-man in future appearances I'll change my mind.

Well, if we're using AT's battle rig, he can fight forever, and eventually Spidey will be tired.

Zack M
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Tbf,didn't Lobo eventually win?

No, I think he was distracted, and KF froze him.

Flyattractor
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Tbf,didn't Lobo eventually win?

Nope. AT just couldn't kill Him due to His' HF.

Lobo has been portrayed very SHITTILY in the JLA book.

But then the whole book is really kind of shitty.

cdtm
Originally posted by SamZED
Imo it's not that simple.
This has been posted before I think but it's still relevant.
Madam Web has spider-man's stats and can see the future. In fact her ability is superior to AT's as she's not limited to 5 seconds. And she still can't connect once on Parker. That's without his spider sense.
So AT's power is by no means an auto win. IMO it comes down to their stats. And it's a bit early to tell with AT. I honestly do not believe that he is meant to be a speedster, more like it was just meant to be a cool feat and a display of his time related power. However, if he'll be written as a speedster instead of a guy with enhanced stats I'll give him the win of course. For now he's DC's Mister X I think. They'll probably have him struggle with Dick Grayson in 6 months or so.

https://s14.postimg.org/4x86sgajl/IMG_0451.jpg

Sweet scans.

Afterbirth probably eventually goes down hard to Damian, mark my words.

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