*CANON* Lord Tyranus (Kurk) V. Lord Maul (Quanchi112)

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Kurk

JKBart
SLORG ONE THIS IS GOLD LEADER

Freedon Nadd
When doeth it start?

Unbowed
Canon Dooku speaking about Maul in TCW: "the great Sith Lord Darth Maul"
Canon Maul speaking about Dooku in TCW:"the Sith pretender Dooku"

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

ILS
kill me

Ursumeles
Originally posted by ILS
kill me deal

Unbowed
Canon Mace speaking about Dooku: "he's not a murderer"

Kurk
Originally posted by Unbowed
Canon Mace speaking about Dooku: "he's not a murderer"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrBESJxv2vY


Anyway once the fraud agrees to our terms and adds any of his own, we'll start. Of course this will be a casual debate as Quan is a pretty straight-forward guy. I almost don't want to put much effort into an actual opener as I know we're going to end up bickering over a measly detail until the end of time. While I know when to concede on certain points to focus on the bigger picture, I've never see Quan do the same, and he tends to go to the extreme to avoid doing so.

Lord Stark

quanchi112
I do agree to the stipulations of canon only but vehemently oppose the public opinion determining the victor. Let's just agree to the debate and find the judges after the dust settles. Do you agree my former and spiritually broken apprentice.


Ps. I also favor Snoke over Maul not that it matters but I don't want anyone thinking Maul comes anywhere near Snoke in terms of my personal preference.

Rockydonovang
Compare their performances vs Kenobi, the debate isn't needed.

Unless off course you're willing to argue for Rebels Maul who scales off Vader...

quanchi112
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Compare their performances vs Kenobi, the debate isn't needed.

Unless off course you're willing to argue for Rebels Maul who scales off Vader... Abc logic and easily dismissed. Anakin beat Dooku and lost to Kenobi therefore does that mean Kenobi beats Dooku.

Rockydonovang
ABC Logic is the most effective line of argumentation, but as you've pointed out, context is important. Unfortunately for Maul, Dooku dealt with superior versions of Kenobi aided by backup while Maul fought inferior versions of Kenobi alone with a mix of favorable and unfavorable circumstances.

Dooku still did much better than Maul.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
ABC Logic is the most effective line of argumentation, but as you've pointed out, context is important. Unfortunately for Maul, Dooku dealt with superior versions of Kenobi aided by backup while Maul fought inferior versions of Kenobi alone with a mix of favorable and unfavorable circumstances.

Dooku still did much better than Maul. Both men have different styles of fighting so it doesn't matter how they stack up against someone else it only matters how they match up with each other.

Maul only lost skill wise to Kenobi in rebels due to him being broken and lost IMO. As I said context always matters and abc logic isn't as important as you believe.

JKBart
i want to judge

Unbowed
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
ABC Logic is the most effective line of argumentation, but as you've pointed out, context is important. Unfortunately for Maul, Dooku dealt with superior versions of Kenobi aided by backup while Maul fought inferior versions of Kenobi alone with a mix of favorable and unfavorable circumstances.

Dooku still did much better than Maul.

Dooku had considerable trouble with Savage, while Maul casually swatted a more powerful Savage away like a fly.

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by Unbowed
Dooku had considerable trouble with Savage, while Maul casually swatted a more powerful Savage away like a fly.
Dooku had trouble with a Savage who could drive back Kenobi and Anakin, Maul swatted a Savage who was fodderized by Kenobi. If you want to argue that Maul's showing remains more impressive as it was a more powerful version of Oppress, It's fair for me to claim that Dooku's ability to fodderize TCW Kenobi proves he grew more powerful as well.


Furthermore, Dooku had to deal with Savage and Ventress. Ventress's presence directly saved Oppress on multiple occasions during their fight. If Ventress isn't present, Savage dies early on. If Ventress was interjected in Maul's bout with Oppress, than Maul wouldn't be able to defeat Oppress the way he did 1 v 1 as Ventress would simply attack him forcing Maul to let go of Oppress.

Kurk
Originally posted by quanchi112
I do agree to the stipulations of canon only but vehemently oppose the public opinion determining the victor. Let's just agree to the debate and find the judges after the dust settles. Do you agree my former and spiritually broken apprentice.


Ps. I also favor Snoke over Maul not that it matters but I don't want anyone thinking Maul comes anywhere near Snoke in terms of my personal preference. I don't see the dust settling; just a rapid descent into bickering over futile details. Picking judges is pointless as bias on both sides will cancel each other.

Anyway I'll provide an opening statement in the next few days; maybe in a couple hours.

See you then, Fraudfather.

Darth Thor
Dont back down this time Quan.

If you do then you might as well just stop posting on SW threads.

AncientPower
thumb up

quanchi112
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Dont back down this time Quan.

If you do then you might as well just stop posting on SW threads. I don't ever back down against a real debate. He'd better not disappoint me.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Kurk
I don't see the dust settling; just a rapid descent into bickering over futile details. Picking judges is pointless as bias on both sides will cancel each other.

Anyway I'll provide an opening statement in the next few days; maybe in a couple hours.

See you then, Fraudfather. The arguments are what matter not the opinions of sheep.


Ok, one minor thing. Clone wars series, live action films only. I'm not wasting my time arguing over the hyperbole from any of the graphic novels or the comics.


Create a separate thread and everyone keep the comments to this thread only.


Now you will learn I am and always will be your one and only master.



https://media.giphy.com/media/yDYAHbqe5DfyM/giphy.gif

Kurk
Originally posted by quanchi112
The arguments are what matter not the opinions of sheep.


Ok, one minor thing. Clone wars series, live action films only. I'm not wasting my time arguing over the hyperbole from any of the graphic novels or the comics.


Create a separate thread and everyone keep the comments to this thread only.


Now you will learn I am and always will be your one and only master.



https://media.giphy.com/media/yDYAHbqe5DfyM/giphy.gif Your inability to comprehend anything that's not displayed on a TV screen is ordinarily not an excuse to exclude material, but given the circumstances, I'd be willing to oblige just to beat you at your own game.

I'm not creating a separate thread for comments; after all, the opinions of sheep don't matter.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Kurk
Your inability to comprehend anything that's not displayed on a TV screen is ordinarily not an excuse to exclude material, but given the circumstances, I'd be willing to oblige just to beat you at your own game.

I'm not creating a separate thread for comments; after all, the opinions of sheep don't matter. Ironic since I'm not the one who glorifies hyperbole and inflates feats to promote an agenda. I was just proven correct on Snoke once again via the director but you're one of those kids who has already made his mind up about how this will go.




https://i.imgur.com/3uQJZ0O.gif

Kurk
Originally posted by quanchi112
Ironic since I'm not the one who glorifies hyperbole and inflates feats to promote an agenda. I was just proven correct on Snoke once again via the director but you're one of those kids who has already made his mind up about how this will go.




https://i.imgur.com/3uQJZ0O.gif You're the dumbass who eliminated Son of Dathomir, one of the better things Maul has going for him, but hey it's your call.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Kurk
You're the dumbass who eliminated Son of Dathomir, one of the better things Maul has going for him, but hey it's your call. I am consistent so I don't care for double standards. I firmly believe in Maul's superiority over your Cuck Dooku. One day you will realize your intelligence fails against my wisdom. Prepare for an unorthodox education, kiddo. You won't find this in a textbook.

AncientPower

Darth Thor
^ I guess that line is out though. Cause you know... Comics dont count.

Unbowed
Why would it even be relevant? Mace knew Maul was a young man in TPM when he was sliced in half, and he knew about the Rule of Two. Dooku was far older, and revealed himself as a Sith a decade later. Of course Mace would assume that if the two were Sith, Dooku would be the master and Maul the apprentice.

If that statement had anything to do with power then Mace(and Aalya Secura) would have engaged Dooku and left Obi-Wan to deal with Maul. Instead it happened the other way around.

If you really want to go down that road, consider that when Maul started growing in power after his revival it was enough to cause Yoda sleepless nights, and he didn't even know Maul.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFEtvIlyXtw

Meanwhile Dooku was presumably growing in power for a decade in between TPM and AOTC and Yoda didn't even get a whiff of it, and Dooku was Yoda's former apprentice. laughing out loud

Geistalt
One thing is certain:
Quan doesn't even know what double standards means.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Geistalt
One thing is certain:
Quan doesn't even know what double standards means. Based on what ? Explain where I use double standards. Quit being vague and try to be more compete if you can, fella.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Unbowed
Why would it even be relevant? Mace knew Maul was a young man in TPM when he was sliced in half, and he knew about the Rule of Two. Dooku was far older, and revealed himself as a Sith a decade later. Of course Mace would assume that if the two were Sith, Dooku would be the master and Maul the apprentice.


Yeah the age factor is a fair point.

Just like nobody would assume Obi-Wan was Qui-Gon's Master even if Obi-Wan was the superior combatant.

I know Jedi/Sith apprenticeships work differently though, but logically there's just no way Maul could be Dooku's Master.

Originally posted by Unbowed
If that statement had anything to do with power then Mace(and Aalya Secura) would have engaged Dooku and left Obi-Wan to deal with Maul. Instead it happened the other way around.




Well Mace did actually challenge Dooku. But Maul raced to engage Mace.

quanchi112
https://media.giphy.com/media/6QXdPW7qzTVxC/giphy.gif

Kurk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atM6wkMlRYs

quanchi112
https://media.giphy.com/media/HUmDQdo0As1pe/200.gif

Freedon Nadd
When you start debating?
*yawns*

You keep insulting each other.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
When you start debating?
*yawns*

You keep insulting each other. When he puts up his opening post. Once the debate starts I won't insult. Battlezone Quan is different than the Quan you all know and love.

Freedon Nadd
What, are you like Revan now?

quanchi112
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
What, are you like Revan now? I haven't the foggiest about Revan and I'm going to keep it that way. Ignorance is bliss.

Darth Thor
Have you decided on which incarnation of Maul is being used?

Because the OP says SOD but Quan has declined that piece of material.

quanchi112
End of Clone Wars series Maul.

quanchi112
https://media.giphy.com/media/TpcfhW30toYdq/giphy.gif

Kurk

Kurk

Kurk

Kurk

Kurk

Darth Thor
Well done Kurk.

The Ellimist
LMFAO how is this a serious debate? Their comparative performances against Obi Wan should make it clear enough that Dooku is in another league, particularly when several out of universe people working on the films have stated that Dooku > Maul.

Freedon Nadd
Why would they believe Maul>Dooku? Maul is just a Sith assassin.

Kurk
Well, that's Quan for ya. I'm eager to see what he has in store and will be genuinely surprised if he matches even a quarter of my word length.

Stigma
Originally posted by The Ellimist
LMFAO how is this a serious debate? Their comparative performances against Obi Wan should make it clear enough that Dooku is in another league, particularly when several out of universe people working on the films have stated that Dooku > Maul.
thumb up

Unbowed
Originally posted by The Ellimist
several out of universe people working on the films have stated that Dooku > Maul.
Receipt please.

Freedon Nadd
It would seem Quan has conceded.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
It would seem Quan has conceded.



http://38.media.tumblr.com/5f7cbff365c395b52eb558e86ea9c4b2/tumblr_ngpmiltr7A1tkxmvbo1_500.gif


Absurd. This just takes time and I don't have the time to devote over the weekend. I have begun the work and expect a lengthy rebuttal and argument for Maul next week.

Rockydonovang
You refer to Micheal Scott for life advice?

Now everything makes sense.

Kurk
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
You refer to Micheal Scott for life advice?

Now everything makes sense. Funny, I get my advice from Dwight Schrute:

http://uproxx.files.wordpress.com/2017/06/output_uk2jbz.gif

https://media1.tenor.com/images/5f1e50a0a2b59014bdd8344f748b0efb/tenor.gif

The Ellimist
I can judge smile

Taking This W
quanchi got stomped by sirion of doom, and now got stomped by kurk LMAO

Kurk
https://media.giphy.com/media/xUOwG2r5EvRpXx0aPe/giphy.gif

quanchi112
Soon


http://68.media.tumblr.com/6b4b6b4f8a7bfa9cdd307d9f439c537b/tumblr_oexy6wlvZu1so18vqo1_540.gif

quanchi112
Ready to drop the "Mauls"


http://bestanimations.com/Careers/Trade/hammers-walking-pink-floyd-the-wall-animated-gif.gif

quanchi112

quanchi112

quanchi112
Maul's other feats and notable displays of power

1. Maul stuns and quickly kills Qui Gon. In this gif you see how quickly Maul kills his foe in close quarters.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111137054/3589841-qui-maul.gif

2. At the end of the gif Maul disarms Kenobi with one carefully timed force push.

https://media.giphy.com/media/11YOwKctC0stsA/giphy.gif

3. Maul while wounded reacting under the duress of enemy fire moving this ship is extremely impressive. His focus doesn't miss a beat against multiple opponents firing at him from various positions in a cluttered battlefield.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114474/3766569-maul+bringing+down+ship.gif

4. Maul force banishes Kenobi away from his wounded brother Savage. This is the second time Maul has earned an opportunistic force push on Kenobi when he's left himself vulnerable. So you can clearly see both Maul and Dooku use their force powers against Kenobi provided an opening.

https://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11128/111280603/5265534-4055356-fdgfdgnbn.gif


5a. Kenobi previously clashed with Pre Vizsla a highly skilled Mandalorian bounty hunter and failed to disarm/defeat him. Pre Vizsla is skilled enough to tangle with top tier Jedi/Sith.

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/JointReflectingGalapagossealion-size_restricted.gif

5b. Maul takes the fight to Pre Vizsla for a more up close and personal approach.

http://33.media.tumblr.com/56b02081bd256a6ab78a8d9319eda9ad/tumblr_n4haylTDDf1s00q0ao7_r1_250.gif

5c. Maul disarms Pre Vizsla he challenged to a one on one duel for rule of their combined forces.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111137054/4817643-maul+beats+vizsla.gif

5d. Maul executes his defeated and helpless opponent Pre Vizsla. Only the strong are meant to rule.

"I claim this sword and my rightful place as leader of Death Watch."


http://68.media.tumblr.com/0af9e65817d5f244ac800d8f5cfdfac7/tumblr_mt1h5qSF8C1rpa4l8o1_400.gif


The reason I showed Maul not sparing a defeated opponent is because we have the opposite from Count Dooku. Count Dooku gives his opponent Mace Windu the opportunity to surrender and attempts to convince Mace Windu later as well in the film. This is a weakness and not something a true Sith would ever fathom; mercy.

https://media.giphy.com/media/nOaBrQpgWxDTW/source.gif

Quote from Count Dooku vs. Kenobi in AOTC

"As you see my Jedi powers are far beyond yours. Now back down."

^^Another opportunity to surrender.

quanchi112
6. Maul's grand duel with his former master, Darth Sidious.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-7hBZNsPnyg

Darth Sidious' own words, "I am most impressed to see you have survived your injuries." Maul, " I used your training, Master. And I have built all this in hopes of returning to your side." Sidious, "How unfortunate that you are attempting to deceive me. You have become a rival."

Rival--a person or thing competing with another for the same objective or for superiority in the same field of activity.

In this gif we see just how enraged and on point Maul is to penetrate Sidious' defenses to kick someone of a higher force tier than himself. As per Lucas the highest tier of his six films was the Darth Sidious, Yoda, Windu tier whereas Maul is on the level below it. This demonstrates how potent and focused Maul is despite the vast force advantages of Darth Sidious who surprises Maul and catches him completely off guard at the height of Maul's political power.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11113/111137054/4817594-maul+kicks+sidious.gif

Another gif showing his determination against his more powerful former master.

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-65bfe7db33e80c8d56bdd3f6f278d7d8

What conclusions you should draw from all the data I've shown you is quite simple. It's that an aggressive, powerful force user is the scissors to Dooku's paper. Dooku's finesse and precision is countered and exploited by relentlessness coupled with power and skill. We have seen far less technically sound and inexperienced foes such as Savage Opress both disarm and overpower him. Count Dooku feared Savage Opress' growing power so it only makes sense he'd fear someone blatantly more powerful and more developed in Maul. You don't fear someone who isn't a threat to you.

Maul and Count Dooku both shared the same master and the same apprentice albeit briefly. This shows a very unique connection between these two and makes this matchup all the more interesting. Both combatants styles are completely different as are their age brackets. Maul is the younger, hatred filled Sith Lord whose determination is as seemingly never ending as the tattoos that adorn his body. Count Dooku (I refuse to call this fraud of a Sith by his Darth name) relies on his force power and precise attacks expending as little energy as possible due to his advanced age. These two are truly polar opposites across the board in almost every sense.

The answer is simple; Maul. Maul showed he was the true apprentice of Darth Sidious since he was molded by a very young age to adopt the likeness of Darth Sidious to a much greater degree than a man already shaped by his own life experiences in Count Dooku. Count Dooku was the rebound to Maul's mistaken demise as his placeholder until Darth Vader. Maul grew in power, wisdom, deeds, and agenda post Phantom Menace. Maul was truly a master paving his own way in the Star Wars universe who became an actual rival to Darth Sidious whereas Count Dooku was always just a patsy.

Maul's physical superiority is too great an advantage over someone who tires quickly against high end Jedi. Maul won't give him time or any quarter and once he tires it will be the beginning of the end. Kenobi has easily parried his force lightning before so there's no reason to see an issue with Maul. Especially given Maul's own brother has taken repeated helpings of it with no long term damage, scarring, or any lingering effects. Count Dooku is the rebound apprentice that is dealt with by Sidious' first love, Maul. At his best he clashed with Darth Sidious while any sane individual agrees is on the highest tier of Sith power from the prequel and Ot era. If Maul can match his former master's power for even a brief time he will definitely be on the level of Dooku's dueling skill level since he was never a peer to Sidious. Yoda outmatched Dooku's power easily. Without the threat of injury to Jedi I believe he wouldn't have had the chance to escape from Yoda's wrath in AOTC.

-Yoda shows he's on another level of force power than Dooku. This is undeniable.

https://media.giphy.com/media/yDYAHbqe5DfyM/giphy.gif

-Dooku had to rely on threatening his comrades in order to buy him the necessary time to escape which cements his cowardice and inferiority to Yoda in dueling skill.

Quick summary of the differences between the two

Maul--1. Merciless
2. Unwavering hatred
3. Youth
4. Greater physicality
5. Double bladed lightsaber

Count Dooku--1. Conditional mercy
2. Calm and reasonable demeanor
3. Age
4. Greater dependence on force power for his physical deficiencies
5. Single bladed lightsaber

Maul who survived off hatred that never died even unto his death will not yield in this matchup. It's who Maul is. It's in his DNA at this point. Maul's rage is a burning star that will spell doom for someone who has made the fatal error of letting loose the "rage beast" before. Count Dooku tends to attempt to fall back and regroup if someone continues to press him with power strikes. If the assault is maintained then this will exploit Dooku's weakness resulting in his inevitable demise. Without Dooku using the grace of his form to keep ahead of the fight while keeping his opponent off balance his rhythm will be thrown off and he will succumb to a stronger, more physically powerful Maul who greatly exceeds him in stamina.

"I sense great fear in you, Skywalker. You have hate. You have anger. But you don't use them."

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/5816531-0864459492-giphy.gif

https://static.tumblr.com/75106f0ad49d15f8de15c3647e0bea30/s0rr8bu/XJ8nv5rnd/tumblr_static_2ydk77sxf20wk0ko40gc00ok.gif

https://i.makeagif.com/media/8-01-2015/-rDyPB.gif

Maul's singular focus of the death of his enemies fueled by his hatred and lack of mercy will be Dooku's undoing. "Everyone has a plan 'till they get punched in the mouth." --Mike Tyson

Prepare for a whole lot more than a punch, Dooku.

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/MedicalLastingFlyingfish-size_restricted.gif

quanchi112
1st Rebuttal





Versatility while admirable and being well rounded doesn't denote an advantage or a victory over someone in battle without sufficient evidence and critical reasoning to support this conclusion.

Suffice it to say I have a huge issue with your use of the word stalemate. To suggest fleeing from fair one on one combat is more an example of cowardice.

This is what allowed him the time necessary for him to escape. Running away doesn't inspire confidence or suggest a stalemate took place.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/14/147508/4939607-dooku+ability+tk+%2820%29.gif

Anakin being the chosen one has nothing to do with the outcome of their duel. Prior to their final duel Dooku bested an inexperienced and less powerful Anakin and survived more than once to prove this outcome was unavoidable.


This is something I've never contested. I do agree Dooku has more raw force power than Maul but not to the disparity of it being the game changer you'd probably lead someone to believe. Take for instance Anakin Skywalker at the point of Dooku's death for a moment. I would argue Dooku had greater force power at the time while Anakin had the greater potential. That didn't save Dooku because a lightsaber negates his force lightning/force power.

"It is obvious that this contest cannot be decided by our knowledge of the force. But by our skills with a lightsaber."
^^How apropos.

Already countered via the Revenge of the Sith script with Count Dooku's tiring early on against Kenobi and Skywalker. Dooku tires very quickly and can't sustain this level of intensity against younger, aggressive, powerful and highly skilled peer.




I also agree Dooku has more force knowledge due to his longer life, his experience as both a Jedi and his time as a faux Sith. I am going to illustrate my point with a sports analogy. Now bear with me I suspect you aren't interested in sports but my point will be clear. The Dallas Cowboys destroyed the Buffalo Bills 52-17 in Super Bowl 27. The bills head coach stole the Cowboys signals so they knew what plays they were running on offense. It didn't matter because despite the knowledge of what they were going to do they still couldn't physically stop them. Dooku while being more knowledgeable wasn't able to stop Anakin Skywalker's assault likewise he won't be able to stop Maul's as well.

You have not made any direct claims of Dooku over Maul here.


I believe we both have at this point enough quotes from in and out of universe sources to back our claims. That means whoever is the more persuasive debater will win this day.

I do agree experiences matter not just overall experience. By that I mean a single experience can radically alter someone's perception or direction so having more due to being older doesn't necessarily equate to greater. So I perceive this to come down whose experiences qualitatively have a far greater importance than quantitatively.

As is the case with anything affecting one particular joint in a specific area of the human body it also affects the entire human body. They go hand in hand but someone with greater physicality logically has to use less force power to augment their capabilities in order to be effective. The greater muscle exertion one use in your body to sprint the faster you fatigue yourself. The same can be said of a force user so what can we take away that pertains to this matchup. The fact these two are on the same playing field of force power/user. Maul, Dooku, and Vader due to his injuries sustained against Kenobi never achieved the upper echelon of power Yoda and Sidious achieved. Dooku doesn't have the stamina to survive a prolonged battle against Maul.


I have a huge point of contention with your erroneous perspective on this matter. Maul has displayed environmental awareness against Qui Gon and Kenobi in TPM, also against Kenobi when he force pushed him to protect his injured brother, and once again shows environmental awareness when fleeing from Hondo's men firing on him by force pushing the ship to escape.


Yoda also states, "Much to learn you still have."
He is powerful but not powerful enough to defeat Maul due to Maul's favorable advantages.


Important thing to me is he can't evade or defeat them despite his immense power. He will be shot and he will go down. He accepts his fate as their captive.

Once again I don't disagree that he is powerful.
Per Lucas Maul is on the same tier as Dooku.
Telekinetically throwing objects is nothing outside the norm for a force user of his power. What I deem noteworthy from this is despite all his attempts to hurt Yoda he was unable to break his defenses even once.

Ventress is his inferior apprentice so his superiority over her isn't surprising. That's what is standard issue for masters and apprentices especially from the dark side. Otherwise why would they follow someone weaker.

Lifting up the obelisks while impressive doesn't carry much weight in a battle with Maul due to the focus and time it took to achieve the feat. In that amount of time if he tries something of that nature he gets impaled and rather quickly.

quanchi112
2nd Rebuttal


Dooku does have the power to ko unprepared opponents who blindly rush in without defending themselves. This doesn't apply to Maul who has a weapon to block the force lightning.

Dooku is in the same tier as Anakin so a back and forth is to be expected. Anakin wasn't defeated in this instance but this is another example of two opponents attacking and counter attacking each other with nothing detrimental taking place.
This remains to be seen. Conversely Savage Opress has shown the force power to break through Dooku's defenses and contend with him. Savage lacks Maul's technical skill and power so it's asinine to assume Maul can't compete on his level.


Almost doesn't cut it in Star Wars or in life. Almost won't get you to your destination. If you want to fail and come up just short of your goals almost is the word for you. Yoda wasn't disarmed nor did he have his defenses broke through in any way by Dooku.
Finishes is too strong a word here. Finishes implies this attacked defeated Kenobi which isn't the case. Dooku successfully countered his attack but this didn't impact or impact Kenobi in any significant manner.



Now this is an impressive display. Force chokes can be achieved by lesser force powered opponents as seen here. It's all about implementing said attack at the proper moment.


https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111178634/4349205-tcw+ventress+force+chokes+anakin+and+obi+wan.gif


Do not forget I have already shown you Savage Opress force choking Dooku and Ventress simultaneously.

quanchi112
3rd Rebuttal

Savage Opress is very raw and inexperienced at this point. Dooku exploiting his weaknesses is to be expected.

Ventress was his former apprentice so his knowledge, experience, power, and technical skill is superior to her. Granted she's impressive she's never been able to really challenge Dooku on her own. That's why she needed the Nightsisters and Savage Opress to push him to his limits.




Now this shows provided the right environment Dooku can use what's around him to keep a capable opponent slightly off balance. My only issue is Dooku was unable to best Anakin and fled from him. In this battle against Maul there's no where to run or hide. Just as all these hurled objects didn't critically hurt Anakin they wouldn't be anything more than a minor nuisance for Maul on his path towards his prey.




Savage Opress left himself open all the time but what I gain from this gif in an all out battle with multiple force lightning attacks this was not enough to ko or defeat Savage. Maul has far greater technical skill to be caught as often or at all like an inexperienced Opress.
Versatility when used properly is effective I contend it won't be effective enough to someone of Maul's caliber. I also do not agree you can reach the conclusion because Savage Opress eats the force lighting somehow this pertains this pertains to Maul.

Dooku has also had his defenses not only exploited but it has resulted in his death from someone using a similar power strike assault without giving Dookunthe time to create the space he needs to out fence his opponent.

Maul was taken aback by the force push but it didn't hinder or defeat him. A temporary setback and nothing more. In this duel we see Kenobi later admit both he and Ventress needed to escape because they were outmatched.

quanchi112
4th Rebuttal

I shared this earlier I believe but it's relevant here since a kick a peer isn't the game changer you seem to be suggesting. Maul didn't lose nor was he critically injured despite being kicked is a moot point. Anakin was kicked prior to this and while it knocked him back he was able to counterattack. The same can be said for Maul in these scenes.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11124/111245625/5444448-4951283-anakin%2Bkicks%2Bdooku.gif

Kenobi doesn't use the same dueling style or techniques of Maul so it's not relevant. Think of it this way Dooku had his way with Kenobi but Anakin brought down Dooku with authority in Rots. Later on in the very same film Kenobi defeats Anakin in a far longer duel so we can safely assume this is a matchup issue. The same can be said for Maul. How Kenobi matches up with Maul is entirely different than Dooku who employs different force powers, lightsaber, tempo, and precision.

Maul might not being Dooku down with a force push but it will disrupt Dooku's rhythm surrendering distance for Maul to press his assault.
I say thee nay. I've shown Savage Opress disarming Dooku from the clone wars series from this gif I'll repeat to refute the claim.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11113/111137054/4055316-gfhgfh.gif


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4yIZpQH1BrI

**1:49 in Ventress force push disarms Dooku. We see her break down his defenses with just a few Nightsisters. Granted he's blind but to an experienced Jedi this shouldn't be anything other than a minor annoyance. Dooku even says he doesn't need eyes to see.

An very inexperienced Luke Skywalker shows he doesn't need eyes to deflect these blasts. This is nothing to an experienced Jedi let alone.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11122/111220339/4624037-5865354922-tumbl.gif

-One final example of Anakin himself using a force attack to break through his defenses.

**10:43 Anakin force pushes thereby breaking Dooku's defenses knocking him onto his backside.


Dooku is an incredibly efficient and smooth operator in the midst of extreme duress. Dooku does exploit sloppier opponents without an extreme mastery over their skill of a lightsaber. Maul isn't sloppy nor is he without his own style of mastery of his weapon. Maul has the stamina to effectively pursue Dooku without giving him the space he needs to keep his opponent off balance.


Keep this in mind. Dooku was unable to best Anakin and he was only able to keep him off of him to later allow his escape. Dooku also was on the defensive against Opress and Ventress prior to Opress turning on Ventress. So while he looks cool and sleek evading attacks while expending minimal energy this won't help him against a relentless, much younger, and highly skilled Maul molded by Darth sidious for years.

quanchi112
Fifth Rebuttal

First things first. Let's deal with the Asajj Ventress gifs. She isn't on his level. She has always been his apprentice and is a tier below the likes of Maul, Dooku, and Vader as the sub bosses beneath Sidious.


I am going to have to ask you to quit being so dramatic claiming this kick nearly ended Kenobi's life. If this didn't much more durable and mechanical opponent didn't seriously injure Kenobi with this punch and crash the kick looks like a flick to the head by comparison.

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/DistinctBrightBarnowl-size_restricted.gif

This is impressive against these two but we have seen Savage Opress and Ventress both catch these two off guard with force attacks despite being more powerful and skilled. It happens but he wasn't close to defeating either of them here.

He does prove to be elusive and tries to keep them off balance while always creating space so he is able to dictate the tempo of the duel. He was successful in this attempt but Maul is even more aggressive than Anakin who ultimately kills Dooku later in the same duel once Dooku is no longer able to separate himself from Anakin's close quarter strikes.

As in all these gifs he's able to consistently continue his movement with grace. I've also given proof in the Rots duel he tired quickly into the duel. Once Anakin fueled his anger at the behest of Dooku it was quickly over. Dooku lost both hands and was completely at his opponents mercy. Maul doesn't need any aid in the rage department since that's as normal to him as breathing. Maul might be kicked or force pushed backwards but just like against Anakin it will only delay the inevitable. Once he closes in with his anger fueling his drive in tandem with his skill he will quickly end Dooku once his energy begins to wane.

I also believe Maul's force pushes would unravel his rhythm and throw him slightly off balance which favors the more aggressive and physically stronger Maul. Force pushes affect him like anyone when they hit him properly. He isn't immune to force attacks he typically anticipates them not always as evidenced by my previous examples of Ventress, Savage Opress, and Anakin Skywalker doing so.

quanchi112
...Continued


I beg to differ. Dooku didn't deal with Anakin's rage and powerful strikes in quick succession. Anakin quickly ended up as soon as he let his anger flow and dominate his emotions. Maul is on his level just like Vader so he has the skill and the powerful strength to properly execute the perfect counter to his finesse and precision.


They are both superior at their own styles so simply put they excel at different areas. I've already discussed in detail the major areas in which they are polar opposites while having the same master and apprentice.

In the clone wars series we see him wield a regular light saber so multiple showings of skill but I choose to bring his double edged lightsaber into play since its two weapons in one.

-Maul is typically angry whereas Dooku is typically calm. I refuse to excuse his emotions since they are intense throughout the clone wars series not just that instance.

-Count Dooku has extensive knowledge of the power of anger through the dark side so I don't buy that excuse. Dooku fights better as a calmer individual so as Maul excels letting the hatred flow Dooku excels when he controls his emotions in combat. Dooku soundly defeated both the Jedi and he had time to recover before his battle had begun with Yoda. The duels with Kenobi and Anakin weren't lengthy in time.







-We don't see any confirmation from Filoni that Sidious held back in any fashion. It's safe to assume after disarming his opponent he didn't have to kill him since he is on another level altogether when it comes to pure force power.

-Yoda also had to stop fighting Dooku and save his friends who Dooku attacked. This served as an opportunity to board his ship to escape. We can tell earlier when it came to force powers Yoda casually dismissed his force lightning but this wasn't the case with Sidious. Dooku didn't break through Yoda's defenses at any point unlike Maul with the kick. Dooku's escape also leads me to believe he wasn't confident about beating Yoda otherwise why not stay and finish the duel.



1. Sidious didn't initially try to run only after Yoda defended himself and his arrogance dissipated with the revelation Yoda is powerful enough to contend with Sidious.

2. Yoda was also temp ko'd by Sidious whereas Dooku landed no attacks. Sidious also gains the high ground and disarms Yoda on screen something Dooku was unable to accomplish.

3. Yoda stalemated the force power and the force struck them both. Yoda was closer to the edge of the pod and weighed loss so he went careening off. Sidious maintained his grip and effectively kept the high ground thereby winning the duel.

Fleeing from battle while attacking two downed opponents is not a stalemate especially when Yoda casually dismissed his force attacks and never had his defenses broke through. Maul was able to land a kick and did not relent against his former master. I also agree Dooku is more powerful in the force than Maul but not to the extent it grants him the edge over Maul. They are on the same level and his lightsaber will negate the force lightning just like Kenobi in AOTC.
Dooku himself taunts during battle providing Maul even more motivation to let loose the fury.

Quotes from Count Dooku to opponents in battle

"I sense great fear in you, Skywalker. You have hate. You have anger. But you don't use them."--ROTS
"Master Kenobi you disappoint me. Yoda holds you in such high esteem. Surely you can do better."--AOTC
"Brave of you boy, but I would have thought you had learned your lesson."--Anakin Skywalker AOTC
"I have become more powerful than any Jedi even you."--Yoda AOTC

That is just four quotes but he routinely mocked Ventress and Opress as well. I believe I proved my point with sufficient evidence of him poking the bear.

Negative ghost rider. Ironic you bring up pirates betraying him when they were able to successfully capture Dooku without even a fight. Maul isn't all knowing but the same applies to Dooku and I suspect the pirates catching him completely off guard makes for a little irony. Dooku wasn't able to suspect Ventress' planting Savage Opress as a false apprentice right under Dooku's nose. He foolishly ordered Opress to kill her to realize he had been duped. That isn't indicative of a mental illness just another betrayal. It happens in Star Wars.

Maul had his mental illness purged by Mother Talzin and rose to become a rival to Sidious amassing enough authority/capital for the grand planner himself to intervene. Maul did successful capture Kenobi multiple times but spared him due to his sadism wanting to prolong his suffering. Again he was successful in capturing Kenobi multiple times, killing his ex girlfriend, taking over Death Watch by learning the rules of the Mandalorian ways. Bad guys usually betray bad guys but Maul came out on top against Pre Vizsla. It was his strategic mind that caused Mandalore to rally behind the Death Watch in the first place.

Maul is cunning, singularly focused in battle, relentless, and spent considerable time with Darth Sidious. Maul learned subtly, the dark side of the force, fine tuned his skills with a lightsaber and how to be utterly ruthless granting his foes no quarter.

Kurk
Nice to see the goods finally delivered. I will sort through it by the end of the week smile .

quanchi112
I suggest after your rebuttals we just highlight our major points in a quick summation because we are going to beat a dead horse otherwise.

DarthSkywalker0
Can I judge?

Nephthys
I have to give Quanchi credit, nobody can say he doesn't put his money where his mouth is. Impressive, dude. thumb up

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Nephthys
I have to give Quanchi credit, nobody can say he doesn't put his money where his mouth is. Impressive, dude. thumb up


This is like the first time Ive seen him put his money where his mouth is.

And the first tim ive seen such an in depth and proper argument from him.

The Ellimist
Not that it's all that good lol.

Rockydonovang
Kurk pushin Yoda>Sids.

Quanchi countering with this gem:

Top bins, quality argumentation.

This is my favorite though:

Bet:
https://youtu.be/_Vtj5YxDcCk?t=1m11s
https://youtu.be/_Vtj5YxDcCk?t=1m30s
As thor says

The Ellimist
Quanchi has a lot of bad practices, one of which is to say things that have nothing to do with the actual debate (like whether Dooku shows mercy to someone or is a "true Sith" like wtf).

Rockydonovang
That's not quite as bad as making a claim and then supporting it with evidence that blatantly disproves said claim.

I like the inclusion of Thrawn though. I'd rolly vote for Quanchi base don that.

Darth Thor
Theres a lot of typical Quan going off the rails stuff in there. But scaling off Opress is a decent argument. Showing Maul Force pushing Kenobi is also a good inclusion. Plus that he admitted Dooku is better with TK but is arguing the disparity isnt large enough.

Where hes shot himself in the foot however is not including Canon EU stuff.

quanchi112
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Quanchi has a lot of bad practices, one of which is to say things that have nothing to do with the actual debate (like whether Dooku shows mercy to someone or is a "true Sith" like wtf). You are focusing on a cherry on a milkshake. You don't buy the milkshake for the cherry it's just something extra you get. I don't believe Maul wins because Dooku has granted mercy on his opponents I just find it interesting and satisfying to compare their behavioral differences as well as strengths and weaknesses relevant to their matchup. It is the cherry you get for the main argument which is the banana milkshake.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Kurk pushin Yoda>Sids.

Quanchi countering with this gem:

Top bins, quality argumentation.

This is my favorite though:

Bet:
https://youtu.be/_Vtj5YxDcCk?t=1m11s
https://youtu.be/_Vtj5YxDcCk?t=1m30s
As thor says I countered with Sidious disarming Yoda on screen and winning the duel due to defending and retaining the higher ground.

And with regards to Pre Vizsla you're focusing on the wrong aspect. Pre was disarmed but so was Kenobi. Pre Viszla is skillful enough with his own bounty hunter weaponry to be both a challenge to high end Jedi in Kenobi as well as Sith in Maul. Maul earned his victory and showed off his athleticism, stamina, and toughness in defeating Pre Vizsla who himself implied Maul deserved to rule. High praise from an honored and respected ruler of the Death Watch clan.

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