SSJ Goku on Namek vs. Hal Jordan

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The Ellimist
Who wins

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Hal.

Damborgson
Mr. Jordan

Deronn_solo
Jordan SLAUGHTERHOUSE.

carver9
Goku stomps.

bbrem123
Goku

SSJGGogeta
SSJ Namek Goku.

He's faster, stronger, and arguably more durable than Hal. Not to mention that yellow light is a weakness of the GLC.

Deronn_solo
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
SSJ Namek Goku.

Having a hard time seeing this when he is inferior in nearly every way possible.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
He's faster

Based on what, exactly? Hal has no problem catching a Zoom whom is moving fast enough to blitz Superman and Wonder Woman to no end, and zip from the moon to Saturn while trading blows, energy beams and astroids at speeds that would make light blush.


Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
stronger

Hal has steady the wobble of the moon, and created constructs the strength to tow the planet - Goku barely has raw strength feats that place him in the thousand ton range.




Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
and arguably more durable than Hal.

Neophyte Lanterns have created shields sufficient enough to withstand the crushing gravatic pressure of a black hole, I doubt Goku's durability is even scratching the surface, lmao.


Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Not to mention that yellow light is a weakness of the GLC.
That hasn't been a problem for Lanterns since Rebith. We saw what happen when Mongul II tried to pull that "yellow weakness" card in Green Lantern issue #6 volume. 4, and it ended with the latter getting carved like turkey.

_________

The way see it, Goku isn't gonna be able to break through any of Hal's shields before the latter blast him to death with reality defying energy attack. Or just pierce him the same way he did to a, quite frankly, more durable Mongul II.

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Having a hard time seeing this when he is inferior in nearly every way possible.

Lol, I would understand that, if it were true. Which it's not.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Based on what, exactly? Hal has no problem catching a Zoom whom is moving fast enough to blitz Superman and Wonder Woman to no end, and zip from the moon to Saturn while trading blows, energy beams and astroids at speeds that would make light blush.

1. Are you implying that Hal is > Zoom in terms of speed? Zoom, who is > Flash, who is > Superman in terms of sheer speed?

So you're saying that Hal > Zoom > Flash > Superman, is how their speed relates to one another? Lol, wrong. No Green Lantern is even close to Superman's level of speed, and Flash/Zoom are both comfortably above Superman. I can provide scans as well, but Superman has proven to be >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Any Green Lantern, in every category.

2. SSJ1 Goku was able to fly around Namek within the span of a couple seconds fast enough to find a spaceship left by the Ginyu force(which happens to be not much bigger than an average person), set a random launch sequence, and still have enough time to exit the planets atmosphere before being covered in the planetary explosion.

He was also able to fly around Namek(which has been placed at 3.5 times larger than Earth), in less time than it took for Frieza to strike Vegeta, who was within striking range. Given that the strike was already coming down when Goku took off, this feat can be placed a minimum of 77,000 times FTL. Did I mention this was base Goku? Even Roshi and Krillin back in Dragon Ball were capable of having an entire fight and relaxing in less than 1/5th of a second. Keep in mind that Goku has gotten progressively millions of times stronger than them, from that point.

The last speed feat I need would be SSJ1 Goku dodging a death beam from 4th form Frieza at nearly point blank range. Back in the Saiyan saga, Piccolo was capable of shooting light speed+ blasts with ease, capable of casually destroying the moon. Keep in mind that even after getting thousands of times stronger, Piccolo wasn't even able to see a death beam from a heavily suppressed 4th form Frieza, using literally close to 1% of his power.

In terms of speed,

SSJ1 Goku >>> Death beam >>>>>>>> Piccolo(merged with Nail) >>>>>>>>>>>> Saiyan Saga Piccolo > Beginning of DBZ Piccolo light speed blasts

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Hal has steady the wobble of the moon, and created constructs the strength to tow the planet - Goku barely has raw strength feats that place him in the thousand ton range.

Neophyte Lanterns have created shields sufficient enough to withstand the crushing gravatic pressure of a black hole, I doubt Goku's durability is even scratching the surface, lmao.

1. Uh, you're judging Goku's strength based off of a feat he accomplished without even using his ki. That's like saying that Hal's strength is garbage, because he couldn't beat Batman without his ring on. Or saying that Superman is weak because he becomes a basic human when exposed to red solar radiation. The intent behind that feat was to show Goku training his body without using ki, not to show his max lift. That same Goku was literally able to radiate his ki across the entire universe, and into the realm of God's just by transforming- you think his peak lift is a couple thousand tons? Lol

2. Goku on Namek has literally batted away planet busting attacks with ease, destroyed a mountain while heavily suppressed, ragdolled a being that can literally tank planets exploding on top of him while unconscious, weakened, and dismembered, etc, etc, etc. Literally, you're acting as if Goku has no strength feats simply because his story doesn't make it necessary for him to find someone to make a machine that allows him to bench the weight of Earth, etc. Goku has never moved the moon, but he has ragdolled people that casually DESTROYED the moon. Not to mention, on Namek? Frieza was literally capable of planet busting with a gesture, in 1st form. Every attack 4th form Frieza hit Goku with was planet level+, and Goku was capable of batting away many of them.

3. What Lantern created anything capable of withstanding a black hole? This is news to me. Regardless, Guy Gardner, who is Hal's peer, was knocked out with one punch, by Batman. Don't talk to me about durability, when SSJ1 Goku on Namek was tanking planet busting attacks like they were light breezes.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
That hasn't been a problem for Lanterns since Rebith. We saw what happen when Mongul II tried to pull that "yellow weakness" card in Green Lantern issue #6 volume. 4, and it ended with the latter getting carved like turkey.

More often than not, the yellow impurity acts as kryptonite to all Green Lanterns, Hal included. A few showings of it being overcome in the decades GL has been around doesn't suddenly make it null and void.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
The way see it, Goku isn't gonna be able to break through any of Hal's shields before the latter blast him to death with reality defying energy attack. Or just pierce him the same way he did to a, quite frankly, more durable Mongul II

The way I see it, Goku is going to ragdoll Hal without even needing SSJ1, and possibly not even Kaioken. You might be able to argue Goku's lifting strength is lower than Hal's, just because Goku doesn't have a lot of feats in that category until Super, but his strikes are clearly still far more potent. I'd like to see Hal bat away planet busting attacks- he can't even stop city busting ones(Cyborg Superman). His speed is also far greater, as well as his durability, as I've just explained.

The Ellimist
Since I'm judging Super Buu vs. Thor I probably shouldn't comment too much except to nitpick that it isn't clear to me that "knocking away" planet busting attacks means what it seems to mean, in that those planet busting attacks hadn't detonated yet so it feels like wanking the Enola Gay because it lifted NUCLEAR LEVEL energy.

Damborgson
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Jordan SLAUGHTERHOUSE.


Way to rock the thunder god set.

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Since I'm judging Super Buu vs. Thor I probably shouldn't comment too much except to nitpick that it isn't clear to me that "knocking away" planet busting attacks means what it seems to mean, in that those planet busting attacks hadn't detonated yet so it feels like wanking the Enola Gay because it lifted NUCLEAR LEVEL energy.

You're acting under the assumption that the energy blasts in Dragon Ball are the equivalent of bombs, when they're clearly not. They are massive, concussive rays, beams, or spheres of energy, capable of destroying planets. That literally means the payload for such energy beams, balls, etc. are well over 110,000,000,000,000 (110 quadrillion) Megatons, i.e. 110,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 (110 sextillion) tons of concussive force.

Keep in mind that the characters in the Namek saga casually toss around, tank, and overpower, blasts far more powerful than even these.

If the Enola gay had lifted the explosion itself, condensed into a blast? That would be impressive. Of course, it doesn't take a strength capable of lifting 110 quadrillion megatons to redirect such a force, or bat it away, but it still requires a staggering amount of force, and said blast are casually tossed around with mere gestures at this point in the series.

RealityWarper
Goku with 0 effort.

Deronn_solo
Currently working on my reply to Skillz, but holy shit is a good amount of your post misinformed - case in point:



The yellow impurity hasn't been an obstacle for any non-veteran GL since, the impurity that is Parallax - E.I. - the living embodiment of fear itself, was removed from the Central power battery; the very source of all the Green Lantern Corps power.

I'll tackle the rest after I reply to Supreme, just wanted to comment on how out of touch you seem to be, with a character you are debating against with such conviction.

The Ellimist
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
You're acting under the assumption that the energy blasts in Dragon Ball are the equivalent of bombs, when they're clearly not. They are massive, concussive rays, beams, or spheres of energy, capable of destroying planets. That literally means the payload for such energy beams, balls, etc. are well over 110,000,000,000,000 (110 quadrillion) Megatons, i.e. 110,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 (110 sextillion) tons of concussive force.

Keep in mind that the characters in the Namek saga casually toss around, tank, and overpower, blasts far more powerful than even these.

If the Enola gay had lifted the explosion itself, condensed into a blast? That would be impressive. Of course, it doesn't take a strength capable of lifting 110 quadrillion megatons to redirect such a force, or bat it away, but it still requires a staggering amount of force, and said blast are casually tossed around with mere gestures at this point in the series.

The only planet busting attack Goku deflects is that energy ball that might not have even happened in the manga, but planet busting energy balls in DBZ don't bust planets or cause that much environmental damage until they detonate, and so it isn't clear to me that their kinetic energy / momentum is somehow scalable to that.

cdtm
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Currently working on my reply to Skillz, but holy shit is a good amount of your post misinformed - case in point:



The yellow impurity hasn't been an obstacle for any non-veteran GL since, the impurity that is Parallax - E.I. - the living embodiment of fear itself, was removed from the Central power battery; the very source of all the Green Lantern Corps power.



Understatement of the year.

His entire post is misinformation, and pulling numbers out of his ass like the 77,000 C figure based on absolutely nothing.

cdtm
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
You're acting under the assumption that the energy blasts in Dragon Ball are the equivalent of bombs, when they're clearly not. They are massive, concussive rays, beams, or spheres of energy, capable of destroying planets.

Sure they are.



03CednFPY0s


Totally a ball of energy. Buu isn't pushing back against it like it has mass and form, until it detonates like a bomb.

One Big Mob
Originally posted by cdtm
Sure they are.



03CednFPY0s


Totally a ball of energy. Buu isn't pushing back against it like it has mass and form, until it detonates like a bomb. They are tangible things you can use physical force against. They still cause the damage, but by them using their hands it stops it from being blasted all over instead. If it simply detonated and that's where the damage came from, it wouldn't damage hands, hurt arms, and knock people out who block.
It also didn't detonate until after it destroyed Buu. Goku just overcharged it with energy to envelop and overpower Buu. It traveled quite a ways after it took over Buu.

Basically what I think Gogeta was saying was the blasts in DB are deadly the entire time they are discharged. There isn't a time released effect where they cause no damage and then they do a second later (unless that's the specific attack).

The Ellimist
Originally posted by One Big Mob
They are tangible things you can use physical force against. They still cause the damage, but by them using their hands it stops it from being blasted all over instead. If it simply detonated and that's where the damage came from, it wouldn't damage hands, hurt arms, and knock people out who block.
It also didn't detonate until after it destroyed Buu. Goku just overcharged it with energy to envelop and overpower Buu. It traveled quite a ways after it took over Buu.

Basically what I think Gogeta was saying was the blasts in DB are deadly the entire time they are discharged. There isn't a time released effect where they cause no damage and then they do a second later (unless that's the specific attack).

Except that they do the collateral that you use to scale them to planet busters *when they explode* and not before.

One Big Mob
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Except that they do the collateral that you use to scale them to planet busters *when they explode* and not before. If they are aimed at a planet or building or something, sure. Either way they still do the damage to beings when they hit them, if they have a secondary explosion, obviously more. Even Final Flash exploded iirc the first time, yet it still tore Cell in half to a point where he might very well have been destroyed if he didn't move.

Basically the initial contact is intended to do the effect. The blast is never docile or inert unless otherwise stated.

SSJGGogeta
Super Vegeta's Final Flash was able to completely atomize Perfect Cell, and it never detonated. Meaning that before detonation, it equated to a power capable of utterly dwarfing planet busting force. That same Final Flash was batted away by SSJ2 Goku in the Buu saga, iirc.

Regardless, having mass does not mean that the attacks force is somehow dormant, when it's literally just a sphere/wave of energy. This should be obvious. Of course, there are some attacks in DBZ that function as "bombs", but that's only through extreme mastery of ki control. Hell, Gotenks was able to make a sphere with SOLID MASS, out of his own ki, capable of trapping even Super Buu, who was capable of tearing dimensions with just a shout.

The point is, whether or not the attack has detonated, surviving, overpowering, and no-selling explosions with planet+ level destructive capacity is the only feat Goku needs, at this point, when it comes to durability, or strength. You could argue that his physical lifts would be lower than Hal's, which would be wrong, but you could. It doesn't matter though, since his strikes are capable of effortlessly surpassing planet level durability, even in base form during the Namek Saga.

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Currently working on my reply to Skillz, but holy shit is a good amount of your post misinformed - case in point:



The yellow impurity hasn't been an obstacle for any non-veteran GL since, the impurity that is Parallax - E.I. - the living embodiment of fear itself, was removed from the Central power battery; the very source of all the Green Lantern Corps power.

I'll tackle the rest after I reply to Supreme, just wanted to comment on how out of touch you seem to be, with a character you are debating against with such conviction.

Wrong again, pal.

The residual effects of Parallax's imprisonment were still there, it just became possible to overcome said "impurity" by overcoming one's own fear- a feat which proved nigh-impossible, even to Hal Jordan, whom succumbed to Parallax and the yellow impurity on multiple occasions. He was simply able to overcome the weakness and develop a resistance to the yellow impurity. This does not mean he was no longer affected by it, as we see during Blackest night in multiple issues.

The yellow impurity is very much still an obstacle for the GLC, Hal included.

And for the record, whenever he has been exposed to Parallax, he has been treated like a sniveling infant. Something with the power of SSJ Goku, capable of tanking planet busters like light breezes, along with a staggering amount of yellow ki? Hal would shit himself.

Not that it even matters- even if we were to grant Hal absolute immunity to the impurity, Goku is still above him in speed, durability, and destructive capacity.

Goku wins.

cdtm
Only rookies struggle with the color. The entity is neither here nor there.

If you read comics, you'd know this.

The Ellimist
Originally posted by One Big Mob
If they are aimed at a planet or building or something, sure. Either way they still do the damage to beings when they hit them, if they have a secondary explosion, obviously more. Even Final Flash exploded iirc the first time, yet it still tore Cell in half to a point where he might very well have been destroyed if he didn't move.

Basically the initial contact is intended to do the effect. The blast is never docile or inert unless otherwise stated.

If that were true for energy balls then how come they don't explode when characters try to push them? If they haven't exploded yet then while they may not be docile, they certainly aren't as destructive as they are when they detonate* and thus arguing that the character "tanked" the detonation energies because they push the ball back is clearly wrong.

* or rather you can claim that they're somehow as "energetic" as their detonations but not as collaterally devastating, but this isn't something based on any evidence

Galan007
First and foremost, you cannot judge the potency of ki attacks by the amount of collateral damage they cause -- potency and collateral damage are rarely ever synonymous in the DBU.

For example, Roshi's charged attack(with a PL of 180) was able to destroy the moon. Conversely, Raditz' charged attack(with a PL of ~1,200) only destroyed a mountain range. Put those two in a beam-struggle, however, and Raditz is going to overpower Roshi effortlessly -- collateral damage be damned. As I mentioned above: in the DBU, the potency of an attack is, more times than not, SEVERAL orders of magnitude greater than the collateral damage that blast causes.

tl;dr
collateral damage/scope is meaningless 99% of the time -- potency is what matters.


Secondly, a standard ki attack doesn't get inextricably more powerful when it detonates -- it has all the energy it's going to have when the user initially fires it. So whether you get struck by the beam itself or the beam's subsequent detonation is irrelevant... It's the SAME amount of energy/ki regardless(barring specialized attacks, obviously.)

cdtm
It's pointless Galan.

They'll never accept your arguments for Superman beating Goku and always resort to collateral damage arguments, like the universal wave non feat.

The Ellimist
Originally posted by Galan007
First and foremost, you cannot judge the potency of ki attacks by the amount of collateral damage they cause -- potency and collateral damage are rarely ever synonymous in the DBU.

For example, Roshi's charged attack(with a PL of 180) was able to destroy the moon. Conversely, Raditz' charged attack(with a PL of ~1,200) only destroyed a mountain range. Put those two in a beam-struggle, however, and Raditz is going to overpower Roshi effortlessly -- collateral damage be damned. As I mentioned above: in the DBU, the potency of an attack is, more times than not, SEVERAL orders of magnitude greater than the collateral damage that blast causes.

tl;dr
collateral damage/scope is meaningless 99% of the time -- potency is what matters.


But the entire argument for the potency of this energy ball is its collateral damage which doesn't manifest until after detonation. Which leads us to:



Lol that's like saying that getting physically hit by a nuclear warhead is equivalent to having it detonate on you. It's not "inextricable" when it clearly mirrors a bomb in that it visibly starts causing far more damage and its energetic parts start rapidly dispersing similar to the energy, shrapnel and shockwaves of a bomb. The most logical observation is that when a character is pushing back the ball, it's pushing back it's momentum / kinetic energy or some ki-"physics" analogy of it.

Otherwise how do you explain why even when the characters are outmatched by the energy ball, they can often still resist for some period of time but then die as soon as the ball explodes? See: Kid Buu vs. the Spirit Bomb. That clearly suggests that touching the ball with your hands != getting consumed by it or having it detonate.

Furthermore, what does it even mean to say that the ball has the same "potency" on people touching it before it explodes? They're still only touching a small fraction of its surface area.

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by Galan007
First and foremost, you cannot judge the potency of ki attacks by the amount of collateral damage they cause -- potency and collateral damage are rarely ever synonymous in the DBU.

For example, Roshi's charged attack(with a PL of 180) was able to destroy the moon. Conversely, Raditz' charged attack(with a PL of ~1,200) only destroyed a mountain range. Put those two in a beam-struggle, however, and Raditz is going to overpower Roshi effortlessly -- collateral damage be damned. As I mentioned above: in the DBU, the potency of an attack is, more times than not, SEVERAL orders of magnitude greater than the collateral damage that blast causes.

tl;dr
collateral damage/scope is meaningless 99% of the time -- potency is what matters.


Secondly, a standard ki attack doesn't get inextricably more powerful when it detonates -- it has all the energy it's going to have when the user initially fires it. So whether you get struck by the beam itself or the beam's subsequent detonation is irrelevant... It's the SAME amount of energy/ki regardless(barring specialized attacks, obviously.)

thumb up

TethAdamTheRock
Goku

carver9
Easily.

One Big Mob
Originally posted by The Ellimist
If that were true for energy balls then how come they don't explode when characters try to push them? If they haven't exploded yet then while they may not be docile, they certainly aren't as destructive as they are when they detonate* and thus arguing that the character "tanked" the detonation energies because they push the ball back is clearly wrong.

* or rather you can claim that they're somehow as "energetic" as their detonations but not as collaterally devastating, but this isn't something based on any evidence Because it's Dragonball, and none of this is based on evidence, or rather statements.

Take for example the spirit bomb, why did it explode after it erased Kid Buu? And doesn't that mean it still retains all the destructive energies in the initial blast? Things in DB only seem to explode when they hit something really hard (sometimes) or over time. But all the initial energy is still destructive, and if it's rammed into someone at high speeds, even moreso. Even the slow moving ones that hit people damage.
Which moves us to our next point, the implication that only balls exploding were planet destroying in capabilities or damage. We already know that even Vegeta in the Goku fight could destroy the planet with a non exploding Galick Gun. And then take a more powerful attack. Do we pretend that more powerful attacks could are somehow less than this because they destroyed a single brick, or do we assume that collateral damage past this point is irrelevant as we already have a baseline for less powerful attacks under the same writer?
Another example is Kid Buu casually destroying Earth without powering up with a vanishing ball. Yet he was throwing bigger attacks with more power behind them and failing to repeat that sort of damage. Frieza at a max of 530 000 destroying a planet while at 120 000 000 throwing more powerful attacks that explode. A severely weakened Frieza knocked out of Gold casually destroying Earth while previous attacks at full power at max destroyed some mountains. Etc.
Almost every attack past that stage could conceivably be planet destroying, but we don't know to what degree. When the power starts going up by millions, it makes the distinction of attacks not causing immense collateral damage kind of pointless. Hence why planet destroying is usually used as a baseline. It doesn't tell you how powerful someone actually is but I guess it sounds impressive. They operate on a level easily able to destroy planets. It doesn't tell the whole story, but it does say "planetary".

Also hands are either really durable in DB, or if you really need an explanation, it could be argued they're using focused ki in their hands to physically handle it. Though it seems more like a power vs power example more than anything. Like how Kid Buu could physically stop the spirit bomb until Goku powered up and forced more into it. Or Frieza overpowered the hakai, or how he thought he could again. Or like how Frieza tried to stop the spirit bomb from descending and it also destroyed his death ball iirc.

There's more, and I could go over it better, but I need to post before I run out of battery at 2 percent. Basically if someone kicks an energy attack away, it seems like they are directly overpowering that much energy. With a kick.

Sensui
Hal Jordan wins, way too powerful, especially since Rebirth. The feats of defeating a Sentient Krona's Gauntlet (hundreds of lanterns power), beating Mogo (with hundreds of lanterns power), and being the literal SPARK of CREATION which Volthoom was planning to use makes God of Will Hal Jordan far beyond Goku at this point in the DBZ series to quite frankly an absurd degree.

And why are people arguing speed? Like Hal Jordan didn't just move SO FAST he nearly entered into the SPEED FORCE chasing down the New God Light Ray and outrunning OMEGA BEAMS?

Rookie GL's like Jessica Cruz can literally hold together planets in a supernova and tank black holes at 6% ring power and Hal Jordan is fighting and DEFEATING folks with hundreds of GL's power. Hal Jordan is simply WAY too POWERFUL for Son Goku during the Frieza saga on planet namek to defeat.

carver9
Originally posted by One Big Mob
Because it's Dragonball, and none of this is based on evidence, or rather statements.

Take for example the spirit bomb, why did it explode after it erased Kid Buu? And doesn't that mean it still retains all the destructive energies in the initial blast? Things in DB only seem to explode when they hit something really hard (sometimes) or over time. But all the initial energy is still destructive, and if it's rammed into someone at high speeds, even moreso. Even the slow moving ones that hit people damage.
Which moves us to our next point, the implication that only balls exploding were planet destroying in capabilities or damage. We already know that even Vegeta in the Goku fight could destroy the planet with a non exploding Galick Gun. And then take a more powerful attack. Do we pretend that more powerful attacks could are somehow less than this because they destroyed a single brick, or do we assume that collateral damage past this point is irrelevant as we already have a baseline for less powerful attacks under the same writer?
Another example is Kid Buu casually destroying Earth without powering up with a vanishing ball. Yet he was throwing bigger attacks with more power behind them and failing to repeat that sort of damage. Frieza at a max of 530 000 destroying a planet while at 120 000 000 throwing more powerful attacks that explode. A severely weakened Frieza knocked out of Gold casually destroying Earth while previous attacks at full power at max destroyed some mountains. Etc.
Almost every attack past that stage could conceivably be planet destroying, but we don't know to what degree. When the power starts going up by millions, it makes the distinction of attacks not causing immense collateral damage kind of pointless. Hence why planet destroying is usually used as a baseline. It doesn't tell you how powerful someone actually is but I guess it sounds impressive. They operate on a level easily able to destroy planets. It doesn't tell the whole story, but it does say "planetary".

Also hands are either really durable in DB, or if you really need an explanation, it could be argued they're using focused ki in their hands to physically handle it. Though it seems more like a power vs power example more than anything. Like how Kid Buu could physically stop the spirit bomb until Goku powered up and forced more into it. Or Frieza overpowered the hakai, or how he thought he could again. Or like how Frieza tried to stop the spirit bomb from descending and it also destroyed his death ball iirc.

There's more, and I could go over it better, but I need to post before I run out of battery at 2 percent. Basically if someone kicks an energy attack away, it seems like they are directly overpowering that much energy. With a kick.

thumb up

Which is the reason the person who is throwing the attack piss on themselves when the villain or hero redirect their attacks.

carver9
Originally posted by Sensui
Hal Jordan wins, way too powerful, especially since Rebirth. The feats of defeating a Sentient Krona's Gauntlet (hundreds of lanterns power), beating Mogo (with hundreds of lanterns power), and being the literal SPARK of CREATION which Volthoom was planning to use makes God of Will Hal Jordan far beyond Goku at this point in the DBZ series to quite frankly an absurd degree.

And why are people arguing speed? Like Hal Jordan didn't just move SO FAST he nearly entered into the SPEED FORCE chasing down the New God Light Ray and outrunning OMEGA BEAMS?

Rookie GL's like Jessica Cruz can literally hold together planets in a supernova and tank black holes at 6% ring power and Hal Jordan is fighting and DEFEATING folks with hundreds of GL's power. Hal Jordan is simply WAY too POWERFUL for Son Goku during the Frieza saga on planet namek to defeat.

Goku won't defeat him, he will destroy him. Also, the fts you named are lame as hell.

Galan007
Originally posted by One Big Mob
Because it's Dragonball, and none of this is based on evidence, or rather statements.

Take for example the spirit bomb, why did it explode after it erased Kid Buu? And doesn't that mean it still retains all the destructive energies in the initial blast? Things in DB only seem to explode when they hit something really hard (sometimes) or over time. But all the initial energy is still destructive, and if it's rammed into someone at high speeds, even moreso. Even the slow moving ones that hit people damage.
Which moves us to our next point, the implication that only balls exploding were planet destroying in capabilities or damage. We already know that even Vegeta in the Goku fight could destroy the planet with a non exploding Galick Gun. And then take a more powerful attack. Do we pretend that more powerful attacks could are somehow less than this because they destroyed a single brick, or do we assume that collateral damage past this point is irrelevant as we already have a baseline for less powerful attacks under the same writer?
Another example is Kid Buu casually destroying Earth without powering up with a vanishing ball. Yet he was throwing bigger attacks with more power behind them and failing to repeat that sort of damage. Frieza at a max of 530 000 destroying a planet while at 120 000 000 throwing more powerful attacks that explode. A severely weakened Frieza knocked out of Gold casually destroying Earth while previous attacks at full power at max destroyed some mountains. Etc.
Almost every attack past that stage could conceivably be planet destroying, but we don't know to what degree. When the power starts going up by millions, it makes the distinction of attacks not causing immense collateral damage kind of pointless. Hence why planet destroying is usually used as a baseline. It doesn't tell you how powerful someone actually is but I guess it sounds impressive. They operate on a level easily able to destroy planets. It doesn't tell the whole story, but it does say "planetary".

Also hands are either really durable in DB, or if you really need an explanation, it could be argued they're using focused ki in their hands to physically handle it. Though it seems more like a power vs power example more than anything. Like how Kid Buu could physically stop the spirit bomb until Goku powered up and forced more into it. Or Frieza overpowered the hakai, or how he thought he could again. Or like how Frieza tried to stop the spirit bomb from descending and it also destroyed his death ball iirc.

There's more, and I could go over it better, but I need to post before I run out of battery at 2 percent. Basically if someone kicks an energy attack away, it seems like they are directly overpowering that much energy. With a kick. thumb up

In DB, we are dealing with characters who've learned to control their ki to such an extent that they can contain/focus extremely large amounts of energy into a relatively small areas. That's why SSJ2 Majin Vegeta, for example, was able to release the sum total of his energy when he Kamikaze'd against Fat Boo, yet only destroyed a relatively small area of land(even though he was a casual planet-buster at the time.) Even though the blast didn't destroy the earth and beyond, it undoubtedly contained enough power to do so. Hence why I said that potency and collateral damage are rarely ever synonymous in the DBU... In this mythos, the potency of an attack is all that really matters.

And like I also mentioned above: when an attack leaves its user's hands, it already has *all* the power it's going to have... It doesn't magically gain additional energy when it detonates. So whether you get struck by the beam itself or the beam's subsequent detonation is irrelevant... It's the SAME amount of energy/ki regardless(barring specialized attacks, obviously) -- SSJ2 Gohan's final Kamehameha against SPC is a prime example.

NewGuy01
Originally posted by Galan007
In DB, we are dealing with characters who've learned to control their ki to such an extent that they can contain/focus extremely large amounts of energy into a relatively small areas. That's why SSJ2 Majin Vegeta, for example, was able to release the sum total of his energy when he Kamikaze'd against Fat Boo, yet only destroyed a relatively small area of land(even though he was a casual planet-buster at the time.) Even though the blast didn't destroy the earth and beyond, it undoubtedly contained enough power to do so. Hence why I said that potency and collateral damage are rarely ever synonymous in the DBU... In this mythos, the potency of an attack is all that really matters.

No one's contesting that. But that,



does not prove this.

Galan007
No, the simple application of common sense proves that. A detonation is just the release of the energy contained within the beam itself -- the beam doesn't mysteriously gain additional energy out of thin air when it detonates.

The Ellimist
Speaking about bad physics analogies:

Originally posted by Galan007
No, the simple application of common sense proves that. A detonation is just the release of the energy contained within the beam itself -- the beam doesn't mysteriously gain additional energy out of thin air when it detonates.

*energy balls was the topic, not beams

If we're using "common sense" then the common sense is clearly that these balls are meant to be analogous to explosives wherein on detonating they do a lot more damage than when they're just slowly rolling over something. Even if there's some analogy to mass-energy conversation as you suggest, the ball may still contain the same amount of energy, it just isn't being transferred in the same way, just as how chemical explosives aren't gaining mass-energy when they explode, they're just releasing chemical bonds, or in the case of say a fission warhead splitting nucleii. But nobody thinks that the Enola Gay's bomb compartment is "tanking" a nuclear warhead by holding one.

The other pretty clear difference is that the defender is only touching a small fraction of the surface area of the ball with his hands in one case, whereas he's dealing with a far greater proportion of the energy in the case where it explodes on or consumes him. This would explain why villains will survive for a while against massive energy balls by holding their hands out and die when the blast either consumes their bodies or explodes. What happens if Goku touches an energy ball and then Frieza comes to touch it too? Do they both tank the full energy or half? What if like a billion ants all go around and touch the ball alongside Goku? How is the energy split? By some proportion to the geometry of Goku's contact with it, obviously.

If I may be blunt your case doesn't make much sense at all.

ares834
Originally posted by Galan007
No, the simple application of common sense proves that. A detonation is just the release of the energy contained within the beam itself -- the beam doesn't mysteriously gain additional energy out of thin air when it detonates.

thumb up

Honestly, this is one of the most moronic arguments I've seen against DBZ characters.

The Ellimist
Originally posted by ares834
thumb up

Honestly, this is one of the most moronic arguments I've seen against DBZ characters.

I don't think geometry is your strong suit if you think touching a portion of a dense energy ball with your hands would compare with the planet busting caused by the release of the ball's entire mass, or that you can reasonably say that Goku "knocked back" a "planet buster" so he must have "planet level" durability.

ares834
Funnily enough, I've never stated as such. thumb up

The Ellimist
Originally posted by ares834
Funnily enough, I've never stated as such. thumb up

mmm So the issue is reading comprehension, then? The relevant part of the claim Galan was trying to prove:



Is clearly wrong, and to suggest that it's correct would require you to make the claim that you say you aren't making. (Never mind that it's a strawman since the original conversation was about energy balls for which the surface area difference is even more apparent)

ares834
Except I agree with that...

What I don't agree with is this:

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I don't think geometry is your strong suit if you think touching a portion of a dense energy ball with your hands would compare with the planet busting caused by the release of the ball's entire mass, or that you can reasonably say that Goku "knocked back" a "planet buster" so he must have "planet level" durability.

Funnily enough, you call out Galan for changing from energy balls to beams yet here you are doing the exact same thing.

One Big Mob
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Speaking about bad physics analogies:



*energy balls was the topic, not beams

If we're using "common sense" then the common sense is clearly that these balls are meant to be analogous to explosives wherein on detonating they do a lot more damage than when they're just slowly rolling over something. Even if there's some analogy to mass-energy conversation as you suggest, the ball may still contain the same amount of energy, it just isn't being transferred in the same way, just as how chemical explosives aren't gaining mass-energy when they explode, they're just releasing chemical bonds, or in the case of say a fission warhead splitting nucleii. But nobody thinks that the Enola Gay's bomb compartment is "tanking" a nuclear warhead by holding one.

The other pretty clear difference is that the defender is only touching a small fraction of the surface area of the ball with his hands in one case, whereas he's dealing with a far greater proportion of the energy in the case where it explodes on or consumes him. This would explain why villains will survive for a while against massive energy balls by holding their hands out and die when the blast either consumes their bodies or explodes. What happens if Goku touches an energy ball and then Frieza comes to touch it too? Do they both tank the full energy or half? What if like a billion ants all go around and touch the ball alongside Goku? How is the energy split? By some proportion to the geometry of Goku's contact with it, obviously.

If I may be blunt your case doesn't make much sense at all. Not that I fully agree with Galan but he makes a fair point. And comparing a bomb with chemical reactions and shit isn't the same as just an energy ball that goes boom. One releases more energy due to special properties and one just goes boom with no science behind it, no explanations. It's just a bunch of energy that spreads essentially. Maybe if you compared a warhead that exploded but was contained within a ball, and then promptly released would you have an accurate comparison.

Anyway, the argument was never solely about energy balls, that's what you turned it into. Gogeta said Goku was knocking away planet destroying attacks and he went on to say every attack from 4th form Frieza had the power to (though obviously more focused).

Even the death beams were blowing up earlier. Would you say Vegeta/Goku didn't take the full death beam because they didn't blow up and thus weren't as powerful? Also Frieza specifically kicks away an attack from Vegeta that Piccolo said would destroy the planet. At 1 percent of his power. With no explosion. Would we say that Frieza/Goku over a hundred times more powerful than Vegeta were throwing less powerful attacks because explosions are important?

Also, in the 4 instances of Planet Vegeta going kablooey I looked at (manga, anime, Bardock movie, time traveling Bardock movie), the consensus seems to be there were two explosions. It seemed the planet blew up when the ball simply collided with it, and then the ball blew up afterwards to create an even bigger explosion. Which would mean that a 530 000 Frieza can destroy a planet without the energy ball going kablammo.
Also ignoring Vegeta being able to destroy Earth with a Galick gun at 18000. The great big old bomb that is the galick gun.

Anyway, as we saw with the spirit bomb in every instance, the power is fully there when someone gets hit with it. It is never docile. Vegeta got ****ed up without an explosion. Kid Buu got destroyed before the explosion. Frieza got overpowered, encompassed, and took the explosion at half power without any real recovery period needed, so a being weaker than Goku fullfilled all the requirements there.

The problem with small surface area is that the being in your instance is literally powerful enough to manhandle the ball. If you're going to try and tell Galan it was never about this and that, then why would you raise a new argument that's entirely about durability against? Not only that, but all of the most powerful attacks in the Frieza saga did the dreaded explosion or consumed them to my recollection which renders this pointless.

But to answer this, it is about power as well as durability. If Goku is not powerful enough to stop it on his own, it's unlikely he's going to survive unscathed. And I don't recall an instance where a character matched a big old ball and then got consumed with no other circumstances or more power being pushed into said ball.
But here are two easy examples for both.
Frieza took a small Hakai from Sidra energy, survived it with some effort, and then overpowered it with some effort.
Frieza took a large Hakai from Toppo, got completely overpowered, and got pretty messed up.
Power seems to largely equate into durability in Dragonball. If someone can kick away a ball, they are not only more powerful than the ball, but they're likely powerful enough to tank it. We saw Frieza kick away a blast from Vegeta easily. We saw Frieza try and stop a blast from Goku and got his hands burnt.

If a bunch of characters weren't powerful enough to withstand touching the ball, I'd imagine they'd be instantly destroyed or promptly consumed though. They obviously wouldn't feel the full power as they weren't even strong enough to withstand it for a second. With someone like Kid Buu though, he was powerful enough to match the power coming at him. And that's what was portrayed.

And if a power is a struggle that eventually consumes you in a theoretical example, then that powerball is above your max power ever so gently and would likely mess you up pretty bad.

The Ellimist
@Ares

no expression So you agree with what Galan was contesting but then endorsed his contestation and called what you apparently agree with moronic?

Lmfao ok.

ares834
What I'm calling moronic is your comparison of ki blasts to nuclear weapons and other bombs. Had you simply made the surface area argument from the start I would have agreed.

Ki blasts, beams, etc... don't generate energy through some sort of reaction like a bomb does. Rather they have all that energy from the start.

That is what I endorsed. And the opposite of that, is what I called moronic. thumb up

One Big Mob
Originally posted by ares834
What I'm calling moronic is your comparison of ki blasts to nuclear weapons and other bombs. Had you simply made the surface area argument from the start I would have agreed.

Ki blasts, beams, etc... don't generate energy through some sort of reaction like a bomb does. Rather they have all that energy from the start.

That is what I endorsed. And the opposite of that, is what I called moronic. thumb up Pretty much, though there are obvious exceptions.

Even contrasting it with a sun vs a nova wouldn't be accurate as it also goes through some massive changes to reach that state. A ball just goes kaboomo more often that not. Does this kablowy make it more kadangerous than being trapped in the middle of it? Is it infinitely more powerful now?

Hell, Goku absorbed the energy of the spirit bomb that exploded. How did he absorb the full energy of an explosion? If a nuclear warhead explodes you can't absorb the full force!

Galan007
Originally posted by The Ellimist
*energy balls was the topic, not beams It could be energy cocks for all I care. Same principal applies either way.

Ki attacks do not just gain mass amounts of energy out of nowhere when they detonate... It's hysterically foolish to pretend like they do.

If an energy blast/beam/ball detonates, it simply releases the specific amount of power/ki that was placed in it from the start. Nothing more; nothing less.

Galan007
Originally posted by One Big Mob
A ball just goes kaboomo more often that not. Does this kablowy make it more kadangerous than being trapped in the middle of it? Is it infinitely more powerful now? Of course not... And that's where my previous analogy came from.

It's the SAME amount of energy either way... One is just a more focused expression of said energy than the other.

carver9
Originally posted by ares834
thumb up

Honestly, this is one of the most moronic arguments I've seen against DBZ characters.

thumb up

Straight up retarded.

The Ellimist
@One Mob Bomb,

I typed up a line-by-line response but I think it's more helpful for me to do a quick run-through. Let me know if I missed anything important:

The question here is whether Goku kicking away a "planet-busting" attack is an overhyped description. I'm saying it doesn't suggest planet-busting level durability and that it's difficult to scale to Goku's physical strength because we don't know how the collateral damage converts to the momentum of the ball (are you suggesting his kick if not magically focused would crack a planet or something?). Of course, we know that SSJ Goku on Namek can planet bust so if the feat is meant to suggest that, it's not very special, unless, again, if you think his kick is actually "planet busting" which is absurd.

1. When the ball detonates, the energy comes rushing out at high velocities similar to an explosive. We don't know exactly how the internal dynamics work but it seems plausible that the rapid expansion of ki is deadlier than the ki being contained and moving slowly towards you in a ball.

2. People struck by energy balls suffer the most damage when the balls either explode or engulf them, but they clearly can hold them off with their hands for a time without being able to tank getting engulfed by them.

3. When you stop the energy ball, you're only contacting a small fraction of its surface area, so it's unclear why this would compare to actually tanking its detonation. If it doesn't, then trying to equate it to the "planet busting" of the entire ball is inaccurate.

4. It isn't clear that every random attack by 4th form Frieza is planet busting because we actually don't know how well a planet-busting charged up attack from, say, 18,000 Vegeta compares. The only way to draw a comparison is to say Goku won the beam struggle, but notice how circular the logic is - it assumes that we can equate the struggle with the explosion when that's the question we're asking! We don't have precedent to my knowledge pre-Cell of someone tanking the direct detonation of a planet buster (Frieza survives the delayed explosion of Namek but he doesn't get hit by the attack directly).

5. If tanking the blast were as easy as kicking it away people wouldn't be as eager to try to get rid of the blasts via deflection instead of tanking them.

6. How is it even coherent to convert the energy of the ball's contents that expand omnidirectionally with its momentum/kinetic energy/inertia/ki-pseudophysics equivalent? What does it mean to say Goku kicked the ball away? That his kicks can planet bust? That he can block all planet busters with his kicks, even those from a character with completely separate kinds of attacks?

I would also need a citation for the Planet Vegeta two explosions claim.

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by The Ellimist
@One Mob Bomb,

I typed up a line-by-line response but I think it's more helpful for me to do a quick run-through. Let me know if I missed anything important:

The question here is whether Goku kicking away a "planet-busting" attack is an overhyped description. I'm saying it doesn't suggest planet-busting level durability and that it's difficult to scale to Goku's physical strength because we don't know how the collateral damage converts to the momentum of the ball (are you suggesting his kick if not magically focused would crack a planet or something?). Of course, we know that SSJ Goku on Namek can planet bust so if the feat is meant to suggest that, it's not very special, unless, again, if you think his kick is actually "planet busting" which is absurd.

1. When the ball detonates, the energy comes rushing out at high velocities similar to an explosive. We don't know exactly how the internal dynamics work but it seems plausible that the rapid expansion of ki is deadlier than the ki being contained and moving slowly towards you in a ball.

2. People struck by energy balls suffer the most damage when the balls either explode or engulf them, but they clearly can hold them off with their hands for a time without being able to tank getting engulfed by them.

3. When you stop the energy ball, you're only contacting a small fraction of its surface area, so it's unclear why this would compare to actually tanking its detonation. If it doesn't, then trying to equate it to the "planet busting" of the entire ball is inaccurate.

4. It isn't clear that every random attack by 4th form Frieza is planet busting because we actually don't know how well a planet-busting charged up attack from, say, 18,000 Vegeta compares. The only way to draw a comparison is to say Goku won the beam struggle, but notice how circular the logic is - it assumes that we can equate the struggle with the explosion when that's the question we're asking! We don't have precedent to my knowledge pre-Cell of someone tanking the direct detonation of a planet buster (Frieza survives the delayed explosion of Namek but he doesn't get hit by the attack directly).

5. If tanking the blast were as easy as kicking it away people wouldn't be as eager to try to get rid of the blasts via deflection instead of tanking them.

6. How is it even coherent to convert the energy of the ball's contents that expand omnidirectionally with its momentum/kinetic energy/inertia/ki-pseudophysics equivalent? What does it mean to say Goku kicked the ball away? That his kicks can planet bust? That he can block all planet busters with his kicks, even those from a character with completely separate kinds of attacks?

I would also need a citation for the Planet Vegeta two explosions claim.

Okay, so either you're just a troll, or you're actually retarded.

1. Goku's kick can be well above planet busting at this point. His punches in BoG's are universe busting, so..? He could easily destroy a planet with a kick, if said kick can easily overpower a planet level energy.

2. Your entire argument relies on the sole premise that energy balls are somehow different from beams, in that they somehow contain residual energy which is inactive. This premise is obviously false, to anyone with more than one brain cell, as the energy balls are not housed in anything but more energy, you pleb. These are not bombs we're dealing with, they are massive concentrations of energy. If said energy can planet bust, it means it is a concentrated explosion with a yield of over 11 quadrillion megatons of force. Beams are the exact same, and Goku has batted away those with ease as well.

3. You realize Goku, even on Namek, has tanked explosions far more potent that planet busting, right?

4. Um... Frieza survived a planet exploding with him on it, with no more damage than he had already been dealt with his fight against Goku. That is a total force of over 110 quadrillion megatons. Not sure what you're suggesting here. Also, ki attacks work the same throughout the entire series. Raditz tanked a full power blast from Piccolo, when same blast was used to effortlessly destroy the moon. Raditz had well over moon level durability. Not to mention strength, because he tanked it without even flinching or moving from his original spot. Meaning that a moon busting force wasn't even enough to push him, therefor his overall strength is above moon busting. Not sure what it is you don't understand here. Basic science, physics, and logic, apparently.

5. Um, unless there are people around, the blast could destroy a large area, it shows how much stronger they are than the person using the blast, it has dramatic effect, letting a blast land could leave them open to other attacks, etc? It's a fighting series. The person batting a blast away can be doing so for almost any reason, that doesn't mean it's somehow not an impressive feat to knock away an energy blast that can destroy the planet.

6. Your argument is questioning basic physics. I'm not going to spend hours imparting basic knowledge upon you, but just know you're wrong. Literally, these are not bombs, housing chemicals that can explode hard enough to planet bust. They are condensed forms of raw energy that have planet busting potential. This LITERALLY means that they are ki-controlled to be a certain size/shape, until the user no longer wills them to. The force is the exact same, possibly even greater when small because of the sheer amount of condensing applied to the energy.

Anyways, I only need one feat to prove that Goku's strikes on Namek were planet level+

http://i1.mangapanda.com/dragon-ball/280/dragon-ball-69223.jpg

Remember when he one-shot Recoome? Yeah, that same Recoome had just tanked an attack with WELL over planet busting potential, from a version of Vegeta who was MUCH stronger than the Vegeta who could planet bust with a Galic gun.

http://i4.mangapanda.com/dragon-ball/275/dragon-ball-69151.jpg

Keep in mind, Recoome tanked this attack with little more than some damage to his outfit.

http://i2.mangapanda.com/dragon-ball/275/dragon-ball-69154.jpg

An attack with WELL over planet busting force was no-sold by Recoome. A single strike from Goku was able to knock him out with ease. Meaning, Goku's strike > Planet busting force > 110 quadrillion megatons.

Also, Goku's base form power level went from around 80,000, to 3,000,000 from this point, to the point where taking Goku from to fight Hal.

Goku (Frieza fight) >>>>> Goku (Recoome fight) > Planet busting force > 110 quadrillion megatons

Keep in mind that's just his strikes. Now do you understand? Goku would literally one-shot Hal.

One Big Mob
Originally posted by The Ellimist
@One Mob Bomb,

I typed up a line-by-line response but I think it's more helpful for me to do a quick run-through. Let me know if I missed anything important:

The question here is whether Goku kicking away a "planet-busting" attack is an overhyped description. I'm saying it doesn't suggest planet-busting level durability and that it's difficult to scale to Goku's physical strength because we don't know how the collateral damage converts to the momentum of the ball (are you suggesting his kick if not magically focused would crack a planet or something?). Of course, we know that SSJ Goku on Namek can planet bust so if the feat is meant to suggest that, it's not very special, unless, again, if you think his kick is actually "planet busting" which is absurd. It doesn't matter what I think it is, what matters is the statement is entirely accurate. Maybe it's overhyped, maybe it isn't. But it's accurate.
Also, you did miss stuff, naturally, but whatever you want to turn this into doesn't matter.

And no, I don't care if he can crack a planet with a kick or not, what I think is that he can absolutely kick a planet destroying attack away. Which he did. And this goes to answer how collateral damage differs. Just because something is more powerful, doesn't mean the scope is the same. The bare minimum of destroying a planet carries less power within it than Goku's foot. That doesn't mean Goku can kick a planet in half, that means that if he faces a planet destroying attack he can overpower it.

Again, which is why I say collateral damage past the Saiyan saga is meaningless. Because almost every attack carries more damage capabilities than the bare minimum requirements of destroying a planet. Simple.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
1. When the ball detonates, the energy comes rushing out at high velocities similar to an explosive. We don't know exactly how the internal dynamics work but it seems plausible that the rapid expansion of ki is deadlier than the ki being contained and moving slowly towards you in a ball. And you could make the same argument that a bunch of energy spreading outwards in a perfect sphere would lose a lot of stopping power were you outside the middle. Was this not your prior argument with surface area being hugely important? If I am being hit by the explosion of an attack that just touches me, why would I feel the full force?

Now that changes of course when you change the location of the target, but the end result is the same. You can play semantics and downgrade or upgrade any attack depending on factors, but the actual intention is that the attack no matter what it does carries the destructive power. Otherwise, you'd kind of think anywhere in the many mangas, the many episodes, the many movies, and the non canon series that they'd mention that attacks that explode are only dangerous when they explode, or that they gain some infinite upgrade.

Also, the rapid expansion of Ki also means it loses the density of a massive energy ball, and thus, isn't as focused into one area. Things can be argued or looked at of course, but what can also be looked at is assuming overpowering a powerful attack means you output more power than that attack.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
2. People struck by energy balls suffer the most damage when the balls either explode or engulf them, but they clearly can hold them off with their hands for a time without being able to tank getting engulfed by them. Like I said before, it's a power game. I even gave examples. If they get engulfed, they got overpowered, why would they not be hurt? And they get engulfed because the energy moves forward into them.

Anytime an energy ball engulfs and explodes on someone, it was more powerful. Even if an equal attack were to engulf someone, it would likely do some serious damage, though I can't even think of one instance there. The closest would be surprise attacks where they were either unsuspecting, or they were so above the attack they overpowered it anyway.

You're naturally thinking of Kid Buu, while ignoring Goku going SS and blasting the piss out of it.

But the argument wasn't about durability (though again, it seems interchangeable). The argument was about raw power. And if someone is powerful enough to push away an attack, then they are more powerful than it. Unless that attack is specifically The Big Bomb that Explodes Boom Boom Bang Explosions, then it holds firm.

It doesn't matter if they don't get engulfed. They are literally powerful enough to not get engulfed by the massive energy ball. And the massive energy ball hurts.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
3. When you stop the energy ball, you're only contacting a small fraction of its surface area, so it's unclear why this would compare to actually tanking its detonation. If it doesn't, then trying to equate it to the "planet busting" of the entire ball is inaccurate. That's perfectly fine. Problem is you're still fighting the full power of it when you stop it. The planet destroying attack has less power than you.

The ball doesn't split off into other little balls to fight you with even mass. The entire energy of the ball is in your face ready to **** you up. All of the energy is behind what you're touching, ie, touching a finger to the blast still has the the entire ball pushing it's energy at you.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
4. It isn't clear that every random attack by 4th form Frieza is planet busting because we actually don't know how well a planet-busting charged up attack from, say, 18,000 Vegeta compares. The only way to draw a comparison is to say Goku won the beam struggle, but notice how circular the logic is - it assumes that we can equate the struggle with the explosion when that's the question we're asking! We don't have precedent to my knowledge pre-Cell of someone tanking the direct detonation of a planet buster (Frieza survives the delayed explosion of Namek but he doesn't get hit by the attack directly). Well, 4th form Frieza was hundreds of times more powerful, as was Vegeta quite a bit higher.
Many of times less powerful Vegeta survived a beam more powerful than his planet destroying Galick Gun. He died however against Frieza when he was way more powerful.
http://i68.tinypic.com/2iu474o.jpg
http://i63.tinypic.com/1t0sco.jpg

We also saw Vegeta get put down by Zarbon and Recoome. When he specifically didn't get put down by an attack more powerful than his planet destroying galick gun. We also saw Vegeta easily kill a being as powerful as he was when he went to Earth while he was at 24000. To assume Frieza who we'll assume is three million couldn't casually kill Vegeta with any blast is dishonest. Especially when we have Vegeta one shotting Kiwi (he punched him before hand once)
http://i63.tinypic.com/2vifqeh.jpg

http://i63.tinypic.com/290q3qe.jpg

To think 1st form Frieza couldn't casually kill a Vegeta who can tank a planet destroying level blast is dishonest. Let alone 4th form. That's not to say every attack would destroy a planet, just that every attack would kill Vegeta. Which goes back to my earlier point that it stops turning into collateral damage, and more about power.


Are you trying to use the cut in half Frieza, who got blasted by Goku hard, and then had a planet destroying on top of him to try and prove he couldn't take the impact of a planet destroying attack EXPLODING on him? So if first form Frieza - who is hundreds of times less powerful than 100 percent Frieza - blasts 100 percent Frieza with the Saiyan destroyer, we simply would not know what would happen because we haven't seen EXPLOSION!? Really, come on.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
5. If tanking the blast were as easy as kicking it away people wouldn't be as eager to try to get rid of the blasts via deflection instead of tanking them. Well... that's a misread.

What kicking away, or backhanding away proves is that these attacks are so beneath their notice that they don't have to actually exert themselves to take or stop the attack.

You cannot kick away any attack. What you can do is kick away attacks way beneath your power. And why take the chance it does something to you when you can show your opponent that their attack is way below you?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
6. How is it even coherent to convert the energy of the ball's contents that expand omnidirectionally with its momentum/kinetic energy/inertia/ki-pseudophysics equivalent? What does it mean to say Goku kicked the ball away? That his kicks can planet bust? That he can block all planet busters with his kicks, even those from a character with completely separate kinds of attacks? It means he can kick away planet busters from the level he encountered them.
It means he can likely overpower any attack Frieza could possibly throw no matter if it was intended to be planet busting or not.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I would also need a citation for the Planet Vegeta two explosions claim. I already gave them, though there is no Manga showing, I was just using that to show I looked into it as well as others to form an opinion on it.

But here, here's from I believe Dragonball Kai, which is supposed to be no filler.
BYGRZP00j9s

The Ellimist
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Okay, so either you're just a troll, or you're actually retarded.


LMFAO

Here is a guy who doesn't understand the inverse square law and thinks an object's internal energy is equivalent to its kinetic energy trying to condescendingly lecture me on "basic physics".

Let me spell this out for you:

The amount of energy the ball has, by the "basic physics" you've hilariously appealed to, is not equivalent to either:

1. How difficult it is to kick away, or

2. How deadly it is on contact.

Example: I could take a ball of iron and superheat it to incredibly high temperatures, thus greatly enhancing its internal energy. However:

1. The ball does not take any more force to accelerate (within classical mechanics), and

2. If I get a crane to touch the ball, it does not immediately get all of the internal energy of the ball transferred to it.

Please, please stop butchering concepts you have no understanding of while running around pontificating about your non-existent qualifications. It's cringe.




Once again you just verbosely restate your position as "proof" of itself. You're welcome to explain:

- why the detonating ball causes rapid environmental destruction it doesn't do pre-detonation

- why fighters who cannot withstand the detonation or engulfment can temporarily resist it pre-detonation

- why fighters would bother deflecting the ball at all if it's just as deadly on initial contact as on detonation

- why the energy of the ki when it rapidly expands outwards on detonation somehow maps perfectly onto its momentum/inertia/kinetic energy when it's moving forward as a ball

- why touching a small fraction of the surface area of the ball somehow equates to dealing with all of the energy yourself

Ki exploding really quickly outwards may be much deadlier than ki moving slowly in a contained ball. Not sure where it's obviously false for anyone with, in your words, "brain cells".




AHAHAAHAAHAH!!!!

"Basic physics" would tell us that Frieza only tanks the proportion of the explosion that hits his human sized cross-sectional area, not all the energy of the explosion. That would, from a back of an envelope calculation, be about one in several hundred trillionth of the actual explosion. You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, lmao.



...what? Nobody is around when SSJ Goku and Frieza fought, lol. And no, saying it's "dramatic effect" when we consistently see exploding and consuming blasts do more damage than ones that hit fighters' hands isn't a coherent rebuttal. Try again.

The rest of your post is just a self-parodying collection of circular arguments that are all based on your conclusion already being true.

Yep, you just got owned, Master-of-basic-physics boy.

https://i.imgur.com/bH3Utzm.gif

@One Big Mob I'll get to your (better) post as well.

TheBadguy
You're all in here typing your hearts out huh yeeeea not gonna read this one

*backs out slowly*

Damborgson
This is being way over analyzed.

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by The Ellimist
LMFAO

Here is a guy who doesn't understand the inverse square law and thinks an object's internal energy is equivalent to its kinetic energy trying to condescendingly lecture me on "basic physics".

Let me spell this out for you:

The amount of energy the ball has, by the "basic physics" you've hilariously appealed to, is not equivalent to either:

1. How difficult it is to kick away, or

2. How deadly it is on contact.

Example: I could take a ball of iron and superheat it to incredibly high temperatures, thus greatly enhancing its internal energy. However:

1. The ball does not take any more force to accelerate (within classical mechanics), and

2. If I get a crane to touch the ball, it does not immediately get all of the internal energy of the ball transferred to it.

Please, please stop butchering concepts you have no understanding of while running around pontificating about your non-existent qualifications. It's cringe.




Once again you just verbosely restate your position as "proof" of itself. You're welcome to explain:

- why the detonating ball causes rapid environmental destruction it doesn't do pre-detonation

- why fighters who cannot withstand the detonation or engulfment can temporarily resist it pre-detonation

- why fighters would bother deflecting the ball at all if it's just as deadly on initial contact as on detonation

- why the energy of the ki when it rapidly expands outwards on detonation somehow maps perfectly onto its momentum/inertia/kinetic energy when it's moving forward as a ball

- why touching a small fraction of the surface area of the ball somehow equates to dealing with all of the energy yourself

Ki exploding really quickly outwards may be much deadlier than ki moving slowly in a contained ball. Not sure where it's obviously false for anyone with, in your words, "brain cells".




AHAHAAHAAHAH!!!!

"Basic physics" would tell us that Frieza only tanks the proportion of the explosion that hits his human sized cross-sectional area, not all the energy of the explosion. That would, from a back of an envelope calculation, be about one in several hundred trillionth of the actual explosion. You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, lmao.



...what? Nobody is around when SSJ Goku and Frieza fought, lol. And no, saying it's "dramatic effect" when we consistently see exploding and consuming blasts do more damage than ones that hit fighters' hands isn't a coherent rebuttal. Try again.

The rest of your post is just a self-parodying collection of circular arguments that are all based on your conclusion already being true.

Yep, you just got owned, Master-of-basic-physics boy.

https://i.imgur.com/bH3Utzm.gif

@One Big Mob I'll get to your (better) post as well.

...

I take back what I said before. It's clear to me that you're not just a troll, you're either simply retarded, or you just can't read.

1. Being at the epicenter of an explosion as it's expanding outwards = tanking the full force of the attack. Energy transfers, dude. It's not as if tanking a planet exploding is somehow going to make all the energy go into you, and stay there. It goes through you, as a conductor. That still means you tanked the initial force of a planetary explosion, which is quadrillions of megatons of force, you ****ing half-wit.

2. A ball of energy has no innate energy or force. It is both energy AND force. That's like if you condensed the sun into a baseball, and claim that throwing it at someone won't hurt them, simply because it hasn't exploded. Your argument is totally non-sensical.

3. You're an idiot, so you probably haven't realized this, but based on your argument about the "physics" of explosions vs. energy balls, your assertion is that batting away a condensed energy ball is batting away the TOTAL force of the explosion that the energy ball will make. Since the energy is all condensed, and your hand is swatting away the equivalent of the amount of force it comes into contact with, it means you're swatting away even MORE percentage of a planetary force. Your own "logic" disproves itself, because you're "logic" is illogical. Because you're stupid.

4. Everything else you just said, I already addressed in my previous post. Nothing you've just restated from your original argument changes/disproves/or even challenges, anything I've posted. Not to mention that none of what you just said changes the fact that Goku on Namek >>>>>>>>>> Hal Jordan, because you're too stupid to present an argument that isn't based on trying to prove me wrong. You're so pathetic at this point, that it's not even worth continuing to argue. Everyone on here can see how much of a fool you are, that it's comparable to beating a dead horse at this point.

Now go ahead, restate everything you just said, and suggest that somehow I'm the idiot. thumb down

The Ellimist
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
...

I take back what I said before. It's clear to me that you're not just a troll, you're either simply retarded, or you just can't read.

1. Being at the epicenter of an explosion as it's expanding outwards = tanking the full force of the attack. Energy transfers, dude. It's not as if tanking a planet exploding is somehow going to make all the energy go into you, and stay there. It goes through you, as a conductor. That still means you tanked the initial force of a planetary explosion, which is quadrillions of megatons of force, you ****ing half-wit.


http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/430/877/271.gif

Firstly, it's energy, not force, as the amount of force that was exerted on Frieza is practically impossible to gauge.

Secondly, the energy that went into blowing up Namek was dispersed over the entire surface area of the planet. Frieza would have had to deal with one in several hundred trillionth of it. Frieza wasn't at the epicenter of the blast. Namek's core was detonating, which was several thousand kilometers away from Frieza, who was on the surface. The surface of the planet wasn't the actual energy source lmfao (and even if it was, the same point about the energy being dispersed would apply).

You take the L, again.



no expression

I can tell why you were repeatedly bringing up "basic" physics - it started going over your head in the 9th grade.

A ball cannot "be" force because force is an interaction, not a physical object. The force exerted by the ball on, say, Goku is equal to the ball's mass divided by its acceleration (and dealing with other forces in the system). It has nothing directly to do with its explosive power.

Likewise, to stop the ball Goku has to apply sufficient force on it over enough time to cancel its momentum (and, equivalently, enough distance to cancel out its kinetic energy).

It has nothing to do with how powerful the ball could be. The closest thing to an argument here that approaches comprehensible is that you can estimate the ball's mass-energy equivalence, but then you'd find that its mass is FAR less impressive than its contained energy. You can move around a nuclear bomb far more easily than you can survive it exploding in front of you.



https://media.giphy.com/media/XD4qHZpkyUFfq/giphy.gif

If you threw the sun at someone, the difficulty of stopping it (aside from dealing with its temperature and huge gravitational gradient from being condensed into what would become a singularity due to a sun-massed object's schwarzschild radius) would be a function of its MASS and relative VELOCITY, not the fact that it outputs 10^26 watts. If you tried to argue that Goku stopping the sun means that he must be able to "tank" a supernova, you would indeed be wrong.

You really don't know what you're talking about, do you?



No, that's not how physics works. (And you brought in physics BTW, not me - though you were obviously bluffing your knowledge of it)

Goku is not swatting away the "force" of the explosion, he's deccelerating an object of a particular mass. Though the mass and energy of an object would be related, the former is much less practically impressive than the latter.

E.g. one kilogram of antimatter annihilating would look like a multi-megaton nuclear explosion.



https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/2296746757/n37nkkimyns6wr51ud16_400x400.jpeg

Where did I say that Goku wins or loses this fight? I was just pointing out a bad argument, and now I'm pointing out that you don't know what the f*ck you're talking about and are pulling sh*t out of your ass in a truly cringe-master manner. BTW, you never responded to my point about characters clearly surviving longer by putting their hands out against energy balls than having them explode in their face.



Can you be honest and admit that your initial round of flames and insults was predicated on trying to bluff your way through physics you had literally no understanding of past middle school?

- you don't know the difference between force and energy
- you think an object can be "pure force"
- you think batting away an object that can on exploding bust a planet means you deal with "a planetary force"
- you think Frieza being on the surface of Namek means he is at the "epicenter" of an explosion...that started in the planet core

This is just hilarious.

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by The Ellimist
http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/430/877/271.gif

Firstly, it's energy, not force, as the amount of force that was exerted on Frieza is practically impossible to gauge.

Secondly, Frieza wasn't at the epicenter of the blast. Namek's core was detonating, which was several thousand kilometers away from Frieza, who was on the surface. Ergo, Frieza would've dealt with the fraction of energy that made it to a few square meters of the surface area of Namek - but the "quandrillions of megatons of " was dispersed across the entire planet. The surface of the planet wasn't the actual energy source lmfao (and even if it was, the same point about the energy being dispersed would apply).

You take the L, again.



no expression

I can tell why you were repeatedly bringing up "basic" physics - it started going over your head in the 9th grade.

A ball cannot "be" force because force is an interaction, not a physical object. The force exerted by the ball on, say, Goku is equal to the ball's mass divided by its acceleration (and dealing with other forces in the system). It has nothing directly to do with its explosive power.

Likewise, to stop the ball Goku has to apply sufficient force on it over enough time to cancel its momentum (and, equivalently, enough distance to cancel out its kinetic energy).

It has nothing to do with how powerful the ball could be. The closest thing to an argument here that approaches comprehensible is that you can estimate the ball's mass-energy equivalence, but then you'd find that its mass is FAR less impressive than its contained energy. You can move around a nuclear bomb far more easily than you can survive it exploding in front of you.



https://media.giphy.com/media/XD4qHZpkyUFfq/giphy.gif

If you threw the sun at someone, the difficulty of stopping it (aside from dealing with its temperature and huge gravitational gradient from being condensed into what would become a singularity do to a sun-massed object's schwarzschild radius) would be a function of its MASS and relative VELOCITY, not the fact that it outputs 10^26 watts. If you tried to argue that Goku stopping the sun means that he must be able to "tank" a supernova, you would indeed be wrong.

You really don't know what you're talking about, do you?



No, that's not how physics works. (And you brought in physics BTW, not me - though you were obviously bluffing your knowledge of it)

Goku is not swatting away the "force" of the explosion, he's deccelerating an object of a particular mass. Though the mass and energy of an object would be related, the former is much less practically impressive than the latter.

E.g. one kilogram of antimatter annihilating would look like a multi-megaton nuclear explosion.



https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/2296746757/n37nkkimyns6wr51ud16_400x400.jpeg

Where did I say that Goku wins or loses this fight? I was just pointing out a bad argument, and now I'm pointing out that you don't know what the f*ck you're talking about and are pulling sh*t out of your ass in a truly cringe-master manner. BTW, you never responded to my point about characters clearly surviving longer by putting their hands out against energy balls than having them explode in their face.



Can you be honest and admit that your initial round of flames and insults was predicated on trying to bluff your way through physics you had literally no understanding of past middle school?

- you don't know the difference between force and energy
- you think an object can be "pure force"
- you think batting away an object that can on exploding bust a planet means you deal with "a planetary force"
- you think Frieza being on the surface of Namek means he is at the "epicenter" of an explosion...that started in the planet core

This is just hilarious.

I shouldn't even bother to attempt imparting upon you, the basic amount of simple, conceptual knowledge which I'm about to, but I've been stubborn about worse.

The malodorous pile of nonsense that you just spewed from you keyboard under the guise of an "argument" is literally one of the most incoherent things I've ever been plagued to sit through and read.

1. Force is not an interaction. Force is the measure of a push or pull, gauged by newtons, which can be quantified by the potential energy required to exert said force.

I did not assert that force and energy were the same. I pointed out that the energy bombs in DB are condensed constructs of raw energy, which exert a force. They are raw energy, and they contain a force capable of destroying entire planets. THIS MEANS THEY ARE OVER 110 QUADRILLION MEGATONS OF EXPLOSIVE FORCE, CONDENSED INTO A SINGLE SPHERE/BEAM/BLAST OF RAW ENERGY. This leads to number 2.

2. Your assumptions rely ENTIRELY on the premise that these ki blasts/bombs/spheres are physical, tangible objects with mass, that can be interacted with as such. This is not the case. When individuals who lack the ability to control ki interact with these attacks, they are vaporized. Even beings with the ability to control ki cannot escape this fate unless they are stronger than said energy. Meaning that they need to exert a force, through their potential energy, GREATER than that of a planet ending explosion.

3. I already know your reply to #2. "Well, the explosion is planet busting, but that doesn't mean the ball is-" WRONG. These are not BOMBS by your real-world understanding of BOMBS. THESE ARE SPHERES OF RAW ENERGY, WHICH CAN RANGE ANYWHERE FROM CONCUSSIVE, TO EXPLOSIVE, TO MAGIC, ETC. These characters are NOT THROWING NUKES AT EACH OTHER. THEY ARE SHOOTING PROJECTIONS OF RAW ENERGY- I.E. THEY ARE SHOOTING A CONDENSED EXPLOSION. THE DETONATION OF SAID ATTACKS IS NOTHING OTHER THAN THEIR EXPANSION- LEADING TO DISSIPATION.

4. Not all of these attacks that can end planets explode with a viscosity capable of ENVELOPING a planet. Why? BECAUSE THEY ARE CONDENSED CONCENTRATIONS OF ENERGY, NOT BOMBS

5. The idiotic argument you just mentioned, about the characters holding off energy attacks instead of letting them blow up in their face? Well, gee, I don't know, MAYBE BECAUSE IT'S PREFERABLE TO HAVE ENERGY SCORCH YOUR HANDS, THAN IT IS TO HAVE IT SLAM INTO/VAPORIZE YOUR FACE. That's like saying, "Oh, why do people cover their faces with their hands when getting beaten up? Clearly this means they can catch the hits, so why even be scared of them?"- WHEN IT'S NATURAL SELECTION THAT CAUSES BIPEDS TO PROTECT THEIR HEADS/BRAINS- THAT SIMPLE.

6. Frieza was at the epicenter of energy blasts far more powerful than the one he used to planet bust- yet remained unscathed. Only attacks from SSJ Goku were able to hurt him in final form, barring Goku's KK X20 Kamehameha wave that barely singed his hand. That blast alone was THOUSANDS of times stronger than planet busting attacks used by characters weaker than him, yet Frieza INTENTIONALLY used his hand to block it, even before it exploded- covering more than just his entire body.

http://i2.mangapanda.com/dragon-ball/313/dragon-ball-69682.jpg

Here, you can see Frieza OVERPOWERING a force of WELL OVER 110 QUADRILLION MEGATONS OF FORCE, even while CONDENSED. The amount of density before it explodes just shows even more proof of my assertion- THAT THE BLASTS ARE EVEN STRONGER BEFORE THEY EXPAND/EXPLODE. They are dense explosions of sheer energy, concentrated into small areas to magnify their power. That is literally the entire premise of MULTIPLE attacks within the series- the kienzan, makkankosappo, death beam, etc. A beam/blast/ball of energy that is more dense will do MORE damage than a blast that just erupts on a massive AOE. Of course, it all depends on how strong the blaster is, how much strength they're using, and what they're trying to accomplish with the attack.

Regardless, Frieza operating at 50% was capable of one-handing a blast capable of destroying planets hundreds of times over, and 100% of the force behind said attack/explosion. It was aimed at Frieza, and he caught it, before tanking the explosion with less damage than was done to his hand.

You are overthinking this, completely. It is very simple. Character blocks planet buster, character blocks planet busting force.

It should not be this difficult for you to understand, even if you're actually mentally challenge.

The Ellimist
Gogeta, be honest with me here: where did you learn your physics from? Why are you still trying to bluff your way through this when it's obvious that I see through it? Do you have any idea how utterly clueless and cringey you sound like?

You commit so many hilarious blunders in your post (e.g. "Force is the measure of a push or pull, gauged by newtons, which can be quantified by the potential energy required to exert said force." laughing ), but since you are obviously incapable of quoting things properly, it would be more productive to break things down for you in a way you can hopefully understand:

1. Nothing can "contain" a force - that is literally incoherent. The energy ball may exert forces on its surroundings that range from zero to infinity (with a few simplifications) depending on the context.

2. Whether the ball is made of "raw energy" is irrelevant - the formulas still work for "pure energy" like light as well:

Force = Mass x Acceleration

Rearranging some things:

Work = Line integral of (Force * Displacement)

Let's say that Goku contacts the energy ball and stops it with no anchor/external forces/etc. Then, with a few simplifications, we can use:

Total work (e.g. energy transfer) done by Goku = 1/2 * Mass-energy of energy ball * its velocity squared

(This is assuming that the "energy" Goku imparts on the ball is meaningful when we should care more about the force, but whatever)

So the relevant variables here are:

1. Mass of the ball.

2. The velocity of the ball.

The latter is pretty unimpressive so we look to its mass - which, before you freak out, includes its energy (e.g. "mass-energy"wink. Now if the ball followed standard mass-energy equivalences it would look like:

M = E / c^2

Where E is the energy and c is the speed of light.

Now, I'll leave this to you to try to figure out. You're welcome to either PM me or post the results of your calc's.



Circular logic.

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Gogeta, be honest with me here: where did you learn your physics from? Why are you still trying to bluff your way through this when it's obvious that I see through it? Do you have any idea how utterly clueless and cringey you sound like?

You commit so many hilarious blunders in your post (e.g. "Force is the measure of a push or pull, gauged by newtons, which can be quantified by the potential energy required to exert said force." laughing ), but since you are obviously incapable of quoting things properly, it would be more productive to break things down for you in a way you can hopefully understand:

1. Nothing can "contain" a force - that is literally incoherent. The energy ball may exert forces on its surroundings that range from zero to infinity (with a few simplifications) depending on the context.

2. Whether the ball is made of "raw energy" is irrelevant - the formulas still work for "pure energy" like light as well:

Force = Mass x Acceleration

Rearranging some things:

Work = Line integral of (Force * Displacement)

Let's say that Goku contacts the energy ball and stops it with no anchor/external forces/etc. Then, with a few simplifications, we can use:

Total work (e.g. energy transfer) done by Goku = 1/2 * Mass-energy of energy ball * its velocity squared

(This is assuming that the "energy" Goku imparts on the ball is meaningful when we should care more about the force, but whatever)

So the relevant variables here are:

1. Mass of the ball.

2. The velocity of the ball.

The latter is pretty unimpressive so we look to its mass - which, before you freak out, includes its energy (e.g. "mass-energy"wink. Now if the ball followed standard mass-energy equivalences it would look like:

M = E / c^2

Where E is the energy and c is the speed of light.

Now, I'll leave this to you to try to figure out. You're welcome to either PM me or post the results of your calc's.



Circular logic.

Oh my god, you're literally so stupid that it's mind numbing. crazy

Seriously, what do you not understand here?

1. Energy and light are TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THINGS. Light CARRIES energy. Energy is a vastly more abstract concept. Regardless, energy has no mass. Light does. A single photon has a mass of 0, yet a system of photons has mass, as long as the velocity is above 0.

Since you clearly have next to no knowledge on the topic, read this.

2. That leaves us with, again the fact that these energy balls have no mass, and their force is measured by their destructive output. If a ray of energy can destroy a planet, it is an energy capable of exerting a PLANETARY AMOUNT OF FORCE. I understand that the physics part might be confusing, relating mass to force, light to energy, etc. but come on dude. This is literally going from one to one. You have an energy capable of exerting a planetary amount of force, and then you have someone overpowering said energy. WHICH IS THE EQUIVALENT OF OVERPOWERING A PLANETARY AMOUNT OF FORCE.

I am ****ing baffled right now, by your level of sheer idiocy. It's literally so simple that a kindergartner could understand it.

3. Your calculations be damned, it takes around 3.3X10^33 joules to destroy the Earth, AT THE BARE MINIMUM. This is the equivalent to around a quadrillion megatons. Accounting for the force of gravity re-integrating these particles, resulting in the Earth's reformation, the amount needed could be estimated much higher.

What you don't seem to get, still, after all these posts... Is that the attacks in DB are not bombs.

Which is why I concede to your blundering ignorance. I'm not going to invest anymore time in doing what your grade school failed to. /shrug

The Ellimist
...

You never answered my question on where you learned your physics, Gogeta. You seem to have learned it from reading random quora posts and going on Naruto forums. Literally everything that's come out of your mentally inept mind on this subject has been wrong.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
2. That leaves us with, again the fact that these energy balls have no mass,

You don't know what you're talking about. If something has energy it must have a mass-equivalence, Einstein.

What matters is that they clearly have momentum because people can physically push them, they physically move objects, etc. Duh.



... no expression

As I've explained to you what feels like a dozen times by now, the ball contains energy not force, and Goku isn't dealing with its "energy" per-say, but rather its mass-equivalence, which is considerably less impressive (see: Energy / c^2).



Given you clearly failed out of 9th grade physics, yeah.



There is no such thing as a "planetary amount of force". That phrase makes about as much sense as "a blue invisible unicorn".



Because you can't do them, can you?

Let me try your hand for you. 3.3 * 10^33 joules has a mass-equivalent of 4 * 10^16 kilograms. This is a lot - but it's actually not that much by Green Lantern's standards (it's about a millionth the mass of the moon). So it doesn't mean nearly as much as you think it does.



Yes. That's its energy requirement.



AHAHAAHAHAAH!

The 10^33 joule estimate is based on the gravitational binding energy of Earth, so it already accounts for gravity, you f*cking moron.



Irrelevant. Momentum and mass-equivalence are not concepts limited to bombs, lmfao.

How are you cognitively capable of logging into KMC?

Dark-Kenshin
I'm pretty sure a guy whose primary talent is drawing poop on sticks has not even put a billionth of the amount of thought we've seen into this thread as to how a random ki attack operates.

How does a ki blast ball work as far as Toriyama is concerned? It makes stuff go boom boom real good and sometimes makes the bad man go bye bye.

The Ellimist
Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
I'm pretty sure a guy whose primary talent is drawing poop on sticks has not even put a billionth of the amount of thought we've seen into this thread as to how a random ki attack operates.

How does a ki blast ball work as far as Toriyama is concerned? It makes stuff go boom boom real good and sometimes makes the bad man go bye bye.

That's possible - the recent physics tangent started with SSJGGogeta bluffing physics knowledge in a truly fantastic manner and inadvertently insulting the collective scientific progress of humanity.

However, the burden of proof is on the people using the "planet-busting energy ball deflection" feat to demonstrate that ki-balls operate differently from how we expect objects with mass-equivalence and momentum to act. If the answer is "we don't know", then the feat is unquantifiable.

As it is, running the numbers to real life analogies tells us that this is about as impressive as stopping a subsonic 10^16 kilogram object, which is not really that impressive to Hal Jordan.

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Irrelevant. Momentum and mass-equivalence are not concepts limited to bombs, lmfao.

It's irrelevant that the energy attacks in DB are not bombs, because you're going to equate them to bombs anyways?

Good to know, have fun embarrassing yourself with your ignorance on a forum. It's not even fun to debate with someone too stupid to know that they're stupid. /shrug

StiltmanFTW
Goku wins.

He reverts to base, why waste his ki on a weakling.

The Ellimist
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
It's irrelevant that the energy attacks in DB are not bombs, because you're going to equate them to bombs anyways?


https://media.giphy.com/media/CDJo4EgHwbaPS/giphy.gif

No, I'm saying that the physics I explained to you aren't constrained to "bombs", lol. It's still a matter of fact that the mass-equivalence of the energy ball, which is not rendered null by your claim that it is "pure energy", using the "basic physics" you made relevant is:

Mass equivalence = Energy / c^2

~= (3.3 * 10^33 joules) / (3 * 10^8 m/s)^2

~= 3.7 * 10^16 kilograms

Which is a lot...but like a millionth the mass of the moon. Is it enough to put Goku above Hal Jordan? I'm skeptical.



It's funny how you use your inability to quote things properly to dodge questions you don't like. Where did you learn your physics from? You very obviously learned it from reading random vs. debate posts, didn't you?

I mean, that was actually my first exposure to it before I got formal education on the subject, but come on, you're just embarrassing yourself. You don't understand basic concepts like "force" and "energy" and are desperately trying to convince me that you do.

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Strawman, strawman, blah, blah, blah

Okay, clearly there aren't enough insults in the world to make you see that you're an idiot. I'm not alone in stating that every single post you've made was either a strawman, or a direct denial of feats performed in canon by DB characters.

Back on topic:

1. Frieza blocks an explosion with more power in it than hundreds, even thousands of planet busting attacks, with minimal damage while operating at 50% full power.

2. SSJ1 Goku no sells attacks that Frieza is shocked can be survived by anyone, let alone someone who he was previously so much stronger than. (i.e. He even goes as far as mocking Frieza, sarcastically asking why he can destroy planets, but can't even destroy a single man)

3. Even base Goku at this point operates WELL beyond light speed, CASUALLY.

http://i4.mangapanda.com/dragon-ball/208/dragon-ball-68495.jpg

This scan is from the BEGINNING of the Saiyan saga, right after Raditz showed up and Piccolo killed he and Goku. In ONE PANEL, Piccolo destroys the moon with a single blast from his hand, before Oozaru Gohan could even continue his rampage (Within the realm of a second or two). This blast alone was at least NEAR-relativistic, even assuming that it wasn't FTL.

http://i6.mangapanda.com/dragon-ball/306/dragon-ball-69578.jpg

Attacks from this repressed version of Frieza, using 5% of his power are able to completely bypass the senses of Piccolo, WHO WHEN HUNDREDS OF TIMES WEAKER, was able to dish out, react to, and dodge attacks moving around the speed of light.

http://i2.mangapanda.com/dragon-ball/307/dragon-ball-69594.jpg

Goku, while also suppressed, was able to completely blitz this same suppressed Frieza. The Frieza capable of casually tossing around and dealing with attacks that even light-speed characters can't react to.

In terms of reactionary and combat speed? Namek Goku operates on levels comparable to some of the Flash's most impressive feats. Hal Jordan is nothing, in comparison.

4. In terms of durability, we have characters like Frieza and SSJ Goku tanking attacks with well over planet busting potency, and not being injured in the slightest.

Meanwhile, Green lanterns on the level of Hal are getting knocked out by Batman.

https://ifanboy.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Justice-League-5.jpg

Durability? Krillin can take more than Hal, on average.

5. Your entire argument, again, is based on the premise that the ki attacks in DB function as bombs, having "internal energy", when they are literally made of pure energy. There is no casing. There is no fuse. There is no bomb aspect about them, other than them making explosions. Your faulty logic, inaccurate equations, and idiotic application of rules to a FICTIONAL SERIES do not change the fact that a. The characters of DB are planet level+, b. The character we're debating about(Goku) is already FTL at this point, and c. Hal Jordan would be one-shot by base form Goku at this point, on Namek.

I must be a glutton for punishment. It's like I'm trying to teach a gorilla how to speak fluent English. *sigh*

StiltmanFTW
Gardner took his ring off, so he had no shields or anything. Bad example to use.

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Gardner took his ring off, so he had no shields or anything. Bad example to use.

Shhh, he probably doesn't know that

The Ellimist

The Ellimist
I'll take it as a concession that you suddenly backed out of defending your cringe attempts to bluff knowledge about "basic physics" to instead vaguely call my calculations a "strawman" - even though you'd been talking about it eagerly for several exchanges! Care to explain how my math is a "strawman"? Oh, sorry - that would be like asking a chimpanzee to help you with your English homework. roll eyes (sarcastic)

I'll start off by dealing with the off-hand comment you try to make on that failure:



How the f*ck are you able to figure out how to use the Internet?

M = E / c^2 applies to EVERYTHING, including "pure energy". I've pointed this out to you what feels like a hundred times by now.

Here are my calcs:



Where in my math do I assume it's a bomb?

No - don't dance around the issue. Let me repeat my question:

Where in my math do I assume it's a bomb?

I'll take any evasive non-answer as a concession.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta

Back on topic:



Concession accepted. thumb up



You mean when he deflects it? You just got owned when you tried to argue that deflecting and tanking are equivalent. laughing out loud



Circular logic. You haven't proven that anyone weaker than SSJ Goku can tank planet killers, so your case is dead before it even begins.



B-U-L-L-S-H-I-T.

Firstly, even if what you argue below is true, that Saiyan Saga Piccolo's ki attacks are near-lightspeed, that doesn't imply Goku is FTL, even if he sees all of Piccolo's attacks in slow motion.

You're the "basic physics" expert, right? I'll leave it to you to try to figure out why. Or you can concede you don't know wtf you're talking about and I'll give you the answer. thumb up



https://i.imgur.com/zGHQb4O.gif

Your entire argument is based on timestamping against Gohan's rampage...but you don't even bother to include the panels where Gohan is rampaging? LMFAO gtfoh.

Additionally, we actually never see a Z fighter outrun someone's ki blast so there's no reason to think Goku is faster than the attack - being able to dodge something moving in a straight line doesn't make you physically faster than it (obviously).



See above.



See above. Your argument fails on several levels:

1. You didn't establish Piccolo's ki attacks were relativistic.

2. You didn't establish that dodging relativistic straight-line attacks means that you can actually move at relativistic speeds.

3. You didn't establish that even seeing relativistic attacks in slow motion makes you FTL, for reasons I'm sure you don't understand.



LMFAO. Flash's "most impressive feats" involve him being practically omnipresent.



Nice circular reasoning. You haven't established that they have done this, because you got destroyed on the tanking vs. deflecting argument.



Nice job deliberately lying / obfuscating information, as you revealed above to Stillman.

What if I bring up Buu Saga Goku struggling with 20 tons, if you're going to try to lowball?

cdtm
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Gardner took his ring off, so he had no shields or anything. Bad example to use.

Yes indeed.

Which means Batman still one shot KO'd the guy who beat Arkillo to a bloody pulp. evil face

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by The Ellimist
I'll take it as a concession that you suddenly backed out of defending your cringe attempts to bluff knowledge about "basic physics" to instead vaguely call my calculations a "strawman" - even though you'd been talking about it eagerly for several exchanges! Care to explain how my math is a "strawman"? Oh, sorry - that would be like asking a chimpanzee to help you with your English homework. roll eyes (sarcastic)

I'll start off by dealing with the off-hand comment you try to make on that failure:



How the f*ck are you able to figure out how to use the Internet?

M = E / c^2 applies to EVERYTHING, including "pure energy". I've pointed this out to you what feels like a hundred times by now.

Here are my calcs:



Where in my math do I assume it's a bomb?

No - don't dance around the issue. Let me repeat my question:

Where in my math do I assume it's a bomb?

I'll take any evasive non-answer as a concession.



Concession accepted. thumb up



You mean when he deflects it? You just got owned when you tried to argue that deflecting and tanking are equivalent. laughing out loud



Circular logic. You haven't proven that anyone weaker than SSJ Goku can tank planet killers, so your case is dead before it even begins.



B-U-L-L-S-H-I-T.

Firstly, even if what you argue below is true, that Saiyan Saga Piccolo's ki attacks are near-lightspeed, that doesn't imply Goku is FTL, even if he sees all of Piccolo's attacks in slow motion.

You're the "basic physics" expert, right? I'll leave it to you to try to figure out why. Or you can concede you don't know wtf you're talking about and I'll give you the answer.



Your entire argument is based on timestamping against Gohan's rampage...but you don't even bother to include the panels where Gohan is rampaging? LMFAO gtfoh.

Additionally, we actually never see a Z fighter outrun someone's ki blast so there's no reason to think Goku is faster than the attack - being able to dodge something moving in a straight line doesn't make you physically faster than it (obviously).



See above.



See above. Your argument fails on several levels:

1. You didn't establish Piccolo's ki attacks were relativistic.

2. You didn't establish that dodging relativistic straight-line attacks means that you can actually move at relativistic speeds.

3. You didn't establish that even seeing relativistic attacks in slow motion makes you FTL, for reasons I'm sure you don't understand.



LMFAO. Flash's "most impressive feats" involve him being practically omnipresent.



Nice circular reasoning. You haven't established that they have done this, because you got destroyed on the tanking vs. deflecting argument.



Nice job deliberately lying / obfuscating information, as you revealed above to Stillman.

What if I bring up Buu Saga Goku struggling with 20 tons, if you're going to try to lowball?

1. I've already explained why your calcs are incorrect. You're equating mass-equivalency laws to a cartoon, with attacks that demonstrably have no mass. If they had mass, they couldn't move FTL, which they do outright, many times in the series. Goku's kamehameha wave has literally shot through a black hole.

2. Your calcs are based strictly on physical objects. There is no evidence that supports ki attacks in DB being physical, by any means. "Pure energy" isn't even a real term, you pleb.

http://www.askamathematician.com/2013/04/q-what-is-energy-what-is-pure-energy-like/

Funny how even in this article, it refers to pure energy only existing in fiction... Clearly most mathematicians aren't stupid enough to equivocate real-world science and math into a FICTIONAL SERIES.

3. I don't understand why you're so keen on going off-topic, if you're so confident about the legitimacy of your "calculations".

If you're calcs are correct, then explain how Frieza tanked a blast with well over planet busting potency(110 quadrillion megatons of force), how him catching that explosion didn't even move his hand, and why the blast did more damage to his hand BEFORE exploding with a condensed force of well over planet busting capacity, than it did to his body after exploding with such a force?

http://i2.mangapanda.com/dragon-ball/313/dragon-ball-69682.jpg

Stop dodging the question.

4. You don't even know what the term circular logic refers to, you idiot.

The character we're discussing here is SSJ1 Goku- him casually tanking planet killers is a ridiculously strong argument for his case.

Regardless, you're wrong- yet again.

http://i4.mangapanda.com/dragon-ball/275/dragon-ball-69151.jpg

Recoome tanked a blast from Vegeta, after gaining several zenkai boosts and becoming powerful enough to one-shot someone(Cui) who was previously his equal. This blast was far more potent than his Galick Gun against Goku on Earth, yet Recoome tanked it(including the explosion) with no problem.

To infer that base Goku, who later one-shots that same Recoome(before Goku gets hundreds of times stronger prior to his battle with Frieza), is completely asinine and proves nothing other than the fact that you have absolutely no idea what the **** you're talking about, as well as the fact that you have no business debating these characters.

You haven't shown a single feat for standard Hal Jordan that puts him above casually tanking planet killing attacks. Or even on the level of planetary attacks. Hal has been completely overwhelmed by people in the past, who were mere city busters. Hal is closer to the level of Demon King Piccolo from Dragon Ball, than he is to SSJ1 Namek Goku from DBZ.

5. That's not the ONLY feat of someone dealing with attacks that have planetary+ capacity in DB.

http://i5.mangapanda.com/dragon-ball/286/dragon-ball-69304.jpg

See this? Frieza just casually pulled the arm off, of someone with a power level around the realm of Recoome's. Nail's power level is 42,000, and Vegeta could destroy planets with a power level of around 24,000. Not just destroy said planets, but also tank attacks that could destroy planets(i.e. Goku's 4x kamehameha wave, which had more than planet level strength, being able to overpower Vegeta's Galick gun)

http://i10.mangapanda.com/dragon-ball/231/dragon-ball-1604346.jpg

(Proof that Vegeta's Galick Gun ='s planet buster)

http://i10.mangapanda.com/dragon-ball/231/dragon-ball-1604349.jpg

Even First Form Frieza is able to exert a force great enough with EASE to bypass planetary level+ durability. Which makes sense, because he literally destroyed Planet Vegeta in 1st form with his index finger, while laughing.

Keep in mind however, that a weker form of Vegeta than the one who fought Recoome, was able to one-shot someone with a single blast, who was far stronger than he was back on Earth(Planet level).

http://i9.mangapanda.com/dragon-ball/257/dragon-ball-1952667.jpg

Even Dodoria was above Saiyan saga Vegeta level, and Vegeta literally vaporized him with a single attack. An even weaker attack than the one Recoome tanked, who was then one-shot by a weaker version of Goku than the one who fought Frieza.

Just to keep track for you: SSJ1 Goku = 50X more powerful than Frieza battle Goku >>>>> KK Goku against Ginyu >>> Ginyu >>>>> Recoome >>> Namek saga Vegeta >>> Dodoria >>> Saiyan saga Vegeta = Planet level busting/durability on average.

Now, all your other sideshow bullshit aside, post a SINGLE feat from a standard Hal, that even compares to the level of casual planet+ power demonstrated by even Base Goku on Namek, let alone SSJ Goku.

The Ellimist
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
1. I've already explained why your calcs are incorrect. You're equating mass-equivalency laws to a cartoon, with attacks that demonstrably have no mass.

Jesus for f*ck's sake...

It doesn't matter if the attacks have mass, it will still have a mass-equivalence and momentum just as massless photons do, you stupid little f*ck. As with every other point that I make, I've repeated this like a dozen times by now and you still haven't grasped it.

It should become clear to you at this point that you f*cked up by trying to lecture me on "basic physics" when I clearly know far more about it than you do. Hint: my education on the subject matter extends beyond reading Naruto forum posts.



WTF? Since when? confused



If they aren't "physical" then why do they interact with their environment, show visible inertia, slow down on physical contact, bounce off of objects and even in some cases seem affected by gravity? LMFAO.



AHAHAHA!

1. With every post you inadvertently admit the obvious (that you learn your cringe-bad physics from sporadically misinterpreting internet articles).

2. Where is your evidence that ki attacks are "pure energy", and who gets to define what that f*cking means? You invent a fictitious term, try to apply physics to it...and then complain that I'm following suite? LOL

3. YOU are the one who tried invoking physics when you jumped into start flaming me with your silly bluffing, moron. Before that I had carefully qualified any usage of the word with the understanding that ki probably doesn't behave realistically. Funny how you're backtracking now.



Because you can't actually provide a response to it that gives anyone the impression you aren't bluffing your middle school understanding of it.

*looks through the rest of your post*

Ah, I see you couldn't figure out my riddle regarding Goku not being FTL just because he's much faster than relativistic people - give up? Want me to answer it for you? Because I'm not obligated to entertain any of your other strawmans (e.g. points about the debate as a whole) if you're just gonna run away from the ones that don't suit you. The point of this exchange is more to make fun of your inability to grasp basic science and mathematics, after all - you aren't worth actually discussing the overarching topic with.

It's also been like the sixth time I've asked you to name where you learned your physics from. Still gonna ignore this question in your reply?

SSJGGogeta
I'll ignore your "questions" until you stop ignoring the feats I posted.

Until then, Namek Goku >>>>>>>>>> Hal Jordan, and me >>>>>>>>> you.

The Ellimist
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
I'll ignore your "questions" until you stop ignoring the feats I posted.

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/2296746757/n37nkkimyns6wr51ud16_400x400.jpeg

As I've explained to you thirty times by now, I was never arguing for Hal Jordan in this thread. I was criticizing a particular argument - an argument that you jumped in to flame me on while posturing about "basic physics" you read on Naruto forums.

So, why are you suddenly so reluctant to talk about the subject matter?

How do my calcs have anything to do with bombs?

Why did you try to lecture me on the 10^33 joule figure...which you thought was a unit of force...which you then said "didn't factor in gravity" when the figure is literally based on gravitational binding energy?

*crickets*



LMFAO, you're near universally recognized as one of the worst debaters on KMC - even fellow DBZ supporters think you're a half step above quanchi in cognitive ability. And it shows.

SSJGGogeta
Me? Lmao, everyone on this bait thread of yours has ridiculed your specious logic and unsound reasoning. Galan, Mob, Teth, Carver, and even cdtm.

When all those people are willing to agree with each other, over you? It's just more proof that you've reached a level of idiocy that hasn't been seen on this forum for years. Congrats- you're in the bandwagon with the other massively retarded trolls that everyone has on ignore.

I wanted to change that, but the fact simply remains unchanged- you're literally too stupid to even know that you're stupid.

So, this is where I take my leave. Even if you're too stupid to acknowledge it, Goku > Hal, and me > you.

The Ellimist
*looks at your post*

Where's your response to my calc's, SSJGGogeta?

Or should you act mature and admit you were in over your head and your understanding of physics is practically nil?

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