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https://i.imgur.com/jPBarev.jpg

vs

https://i.imgur.com/OGPgv8V.jpg

Fantomex.

Your scan implies her illusions are only based on sight. Fantomex is much more than that.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Fantomex.

Your scan implies her illusions are only based on sight. Fantomex is much more than that.

Nah, she can effect ALL senses, even the mind. She can also see through illusions, too, which would make this fight interesting.

Originally posted by Zack M
Nah, she can effect ALL senses, even the mind. She can also see through illusions, too, which would make this fight interesting.

So why did Superman use his ears? I'm asking about the scan you've used.

It wasn't sensor girl intent to completely fool the JLA/JSA, she wanted to give the Legion sometime to work, while keeping Superman busy.

Sensor Girl is powerful enough to fool a Promethium Giant, so she's powerful enough to fool the like of characters like Superman.

The feat I was talking about.

https://i.imgur.com/LBoyAvQ.jpg

Sensor Girl wins...in a misdirected thought Fantomex plants in her mind. She comes out of it in time to see a bullet racing toward her skull.

Originally posted by Digi
Sensor Girl wins...in a misdirected thought Fantomex plants in her mind. She comes out of it in time to see a bullet racing toward her skull.

I had to read that two and a half times to understand.

Originally posted by Vanguard
I had to read that two and a half times to understand.

Not unlike some scenes involving Fantomex's Misdirection ability. As such, I'll consider this a compliment.

Fantomex.

Originally posted by Digi
Sensor Girl wins...in a misdirected thought Fantomex plants in her mind. She comes out of it in time to see a bullet racing toward her skull.
Only to find it was just an illusion Jackie put through his head.

While Jackie breaks his neck like she did to Nemesis Kid.

https://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/3841/751/1600/Projectra05.jpg
https://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/3841/751/1600/Projectra06.jpg

Things like these are the reason LOSH run of Keith Giffen is legendary.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Only to find it was just an illusion Jackie put through his head.

While Jackie breaks his neck like she did to Nemesis Kid.

https://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/3841/751/1600/Projectra05.jpg
https://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/3841/751/1600/Projectra06.jpg

Things like these are the reason LOSH run of Keith Giffen is legendary.

Misdirection is a bit of an illogical plot device, though, and doesn't have much that can stop it, including other tp-style powers. If we escalate to scope and scale, the fooling of a Celestial with it is a pretty big trump card for Fantomex as well. And - if memory serves - he can split his consciousness - or outsource his entire brain function - to a remote location in his ship. So I would consider it possible for him to negate or ignore any trickery Jackie might try.

Fights like these are always a bit hard to determine, and it could in fact be a quick draw. But unless Zack is baiting everyone into a fight that the Marvel person can't win (though let's be honest, he usually is; he just screws up sometimes and makes a competitive match by accident), I think he underestimated Fantomex considerably here.

He's also fought against the Deathloks, who also had his misdirection powers. Whilst it was disconcerting, he was able to recognize it and fight through.

He could also split fighting between his three brains, mid fight. So if Sensor Girl doesn't know this (and it's not general knowledge), she'd be attempting to fool brain 1, whilst brains 2 and 3 would be functioning perfectly fine.

Then EVA is also able to give him sensory input as Digi said. He'd only be able to see in black and white etc, but it's enough.

Plus sentient bullets, shrink rays etc.

if he gets eva, hard to see him losing. if he doesn't i dunno. he could easily misdirect her to think she won though--in fact he does that often. she would then have no reason to keep up her own illusion. i'd think she'd drop it, then the range of his weapons would be the difference and he'd kill her.

Originally posted by Digi
Misdirection is a bit of an illogical plot device, though, and doesn't have much that can stop it, including other tp-style powers. If we escalate to scope and scale, the fooling of a Celestial with it is a pretty big trump card for Fantomex as well. And - if memory serves - he can split his consciousness - or outsource his entire brain function - to a remote location in his ship. So I would consider it possible for him to negate or ignore any trickery Jackie might try.

Fights like these are always a bit hard to determine, and it could in fact be a quick draw. But unless Zack is baiting everyone into a fight that the Marvel person can't win (though let's be honest, he usually is; he just screws up sometimes and makes a competitive match by accident), I think he underestimated Fantomex considerably here.
Fantomex misdirection can be resisted though. Psylocke has done it.

I can't recall any scene of Jackie's illusions bring detected. Even Superman who could scan every spectrum of light and energy couldn't do it and he is as hax as you can get regarding these kinds of things.

Power isn't necessarily equal to perception of these things.

when did psylocke break/resist a misdirect? only dark beast has done that afaik, and he was prepped for it...

Psylocke also broke Cassie Nova in that same arc, iirc. She was getting quite the push.

@Abhi: then why did Superman break it - easily - by just switching to using his ears??

she broke/resisted a misdirect in that arc? i know she ko'd him even though he was immune to tp, but i don't recall her shrugging off a misdirect...

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Psylocke also broke Cassie Nova in that same arc, iirc. She was getting quite the push.

@Abhi: then why did Superman break it - easily - by just switching to using his ears??
And Jackie has fooled both J'onn and Saturn Girl.

He didn't, she was crying and didn't even use her power at that time.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Fantomex misdirection can be resisted though. Psylocke has done it.

I can't recall any scene of Jackie's illusions bring detected. Even Superman who could scan every spectrum of light and energy couldn't do it and he is as hax as you can get regarding these kinds of things.

Power isn't necessarily equal to perception of these things.

No doubt she's powerful. But I'm still unsure how she circumvents the remote brain functioning he regularly employs, or what her defenses against a misdirect would be.

Originally posted by Digi
No doubt she's powerful. But I'm still unsure how she circumvents the remote brain functioning he regularly employs, or what her defenses against a misdirect would be.
She can detect illusions and has herself kept a promethean giant fooled with her power.

Yeah but she has to target people.

Fantomex has three brains and a fourth external backup. Fooling one means the other three would still be operational.

She affects entire areas, not just a specific person.

If she affects him, it will affect him totally.

The Promethean giant scan doesn't show that.

Nor does the OP scan, which incidentally shows Clark using his ears and not using his eyes, which are being fooled.

She wasn't using her power there.

Promethean giant was one entity.

So she....targeted the one entity. Exactly.

Not the area.

Because she doesn't need to do that to attack a single entity.

so...psylocke didn't break it? and it is manifestly NOT illusion.

https://imgur.com/a/uGc70

https://imgur.com/a/kMOpo

that goat monk was actually jamie f'n braddock. braddock recognized it was a lie after being fooled briefly, but recognition wasn't enough to escape it, he actually had to BREAK THE REALITY fantomex created. and of course he is a reality manipulator of the tallest order.

i don't see anyway she can she through or break a misdirect when braddock couldn't, nor could celestial technology.... she could maybe trick him briefly, but between his multiple brains and his own ability to make her think she won, i don't she how she can win this thing, ultimately.

Saturn Girl herself was unable to phuck with Sensor Girl, and she's one of the most powerful telepaths in comics. Not only that, but Jackie was able to implant false memories in Saturn Girl's mind. Jackie doesn't just do mind illusions, she's also knowledgeable about magic, too.

She also has remote sensing, giving her the ability to see through illusions. Who knows if she can detect Fantomex's illusions. He better pray that she can't, because Jackie would crush him in a HTH fight.

Who said it has to be h2h?

Shrink ray. BFR into the World. Skin bullets.

And Jackie has a legion flight ring, with shields and grants the user super speed.

not sure the shrink ray is standard--in fact, pretty sure it isn't. bullets ran out too, but they may be standard, depends when he's taken from. regardless, regular bullets end her unless i'm missing some info? and again--MISDIRECT IS NOT ILLUSIONS.

She has microscopic senses and can see through tricks. It very well might not work. Four brains? Jackie can affect entire teams (the Legion, JLA, JSA, etc...)

Has Fantomex resist mystics? Because Jackie's powers are mystic in nature and her powers are more metaphysical.

Yes but she has to know to affect four brains.

Your own scan, Zack, shows her targeting the Promethean brain. When fighting the JLA, she's targeting specific people.

So match starts, she fools ONE of Fantomex's brains, he fires off a misdirect, and she loses.

Why couldn't she affect 4 brains? She's still targeting a specific person, which is Fantom.

BTW, she would see right through his misdirections. She can see through false realities, and that is what Fantomex does, he "skewers reality". There is NO guarantee that his misdirection would even work, which makes this fight interesting.

Originally posted by Zack M
Why couldn't she affect 4 brains? She's still targeting a specific person, which is Fantom.

Because they're four distinct personalities etc.

As shown when he was split up.

But they're still housed within one being. Is one brain asleep or something?

Pretty much.

It would still be interesting to see if either one can affect the other, but we may never know..

Originally posted by Zack M
BTW, she would see right through his misdirections. She can see through false realities, and that is what Fantomex does, he "skewers reality". There is NO guarantee that his misdirection would even work, which makes this fight interesting. "Interesting"

You're under the assumption she can see through everything he can do and that her powers will totally work. This fight is interesting, but you didn't think so coming in.

she sees through realities? wtf? scans? and yes, bran, like didgi said, occasionally he accidentally sets up a scenario that works out...

Originally posted by One Big Mob
"Interesting"

You're under the assumption she can see through everything he can do and that her powers will totally work. This fight is interesting, but you didn't think so coming in.

I did. Both are similar in nature, similar costume, similar powers, etc...

I'd love to hear more about Sensor Girl tbh, she seems interesting, but can't really take anything Zack says at face value. I did appreciate abhi jumping in earlier, at least.

so...no scans of her seeing through realities then? imagine my shock.

It would be interesting to see if SG can take Fantomex's senses away from him.

i'm still not sure where you're getting that she can see through realities.... nothing in those scans indicates she could break a misdirect.

A misdirection is just a type of illusion. She can see right through them. She can probably take away his senses, to throw him off.

As for the most recent version of SG, she has magic spells to draw upon. She doesn't have to necessarily see a person to affect them.

https://i.imgur.com/s6ehOpU.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/FByxoDi.jpg

Originally posted by Vanguard
I had to read that two and a half times to understand.

I swear I did the exact same thing.

Now, let's see Sensor Girl's last feat:

Tharok was connected to the quark, which connected him to the universe and gave him unlimited power. This power gave him control over a Promethean Giant.

https://i.imgur.com/pXd7ynw.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/31i796a.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/GakQDf0.jpg

Yet, Sensor Girl was able to disrupt Tharok's control over his reality.

https://i.imgur.com/7G9cBg7.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/FhFnjLk.jpg

geezus, how many times does it need repeating--misdirect is NOT ILLUSION. no matter how many times you SAY it's an illusion, it is NOT an illusion..... seriously, wtf? you don't need to "break" reality to shatter an illusion. the list of people and beings fooled is ridiculous. not illusion. no proof she could she through it. not hard.

Yet, we've seen Psylocke break free. Fantom will be manipulating her sense of reality, and Jackie can see right through that.

The key here, is whether Fantomex can fool unconventional levels of environment sensing. Could he fool a blind man, for example? Either Matt, or a blind guy using a cane?

Could he fool Spider Sense? Could he fool Jedi sensory tricks? Could he fool Sticks "chi senses"?

well, he fooled a CELESTIAL SHIP. common sense would dictate that it had pretty advanced sensory arrays. and it certainly doesn't "see" or "smell"...

anyway, i'm good with this discussion. if someone else comes in besides prep and tries making a case with relevant proof, maybe i'll change my mind. atm, i don't see anyway she can see through his power and even if he is fooled, she'd stop using her powers when she thought she won and he'd kill her while she was still in the misdirect.

Why can't SHE fool him? She's fooled things like a Sun Eater, for crying out loud. What if it's whoever strikes FIRST type of fight?

Originally posted by leonidas
so...psylocke didn't break it? and it is manifestly NOT illusion.

https://imgur.com/a/uGc70

https://imgur.com/a/kMOpo

that goat monk was actually jamie f'n braddock. braddock recognized it was a lie after being fooled briefly, but recognition wasn't enough to escape it, he actually had to BREAK THE REALITY fantomex created. and of course he is a reality manipulator of the tallest order.

i don't see anyway she can she through or break a misdirect when braddock couldn't, nor could celestial technology.... she could maybe trick him briefly, but between his multiple brains and his own ability to make her think she won, i don't she how she can win this thing, ultimately.
She did it on a different occasion.

But I like how Fantomex is this invincible character who cannot be fooled by someone else.

Originally posted by leonidas
well, he fooled a CELESTIAL SHIP. common sense would dictate that it had pretty advanced sensory arrays. and it certainly doesn't "see" or "smell"...

anyway, i'm good with this discussion. if someone else comes in besides prep and tries making a case with relevant proof, maybe i'll change my mind. atm, i don't see anyway she can see through his power and even if he is fooled, she'd stop using her powers when she thought she won and he'd kill her while she was still in the misdirect.
Why would this "celestial ship" be any different than controlling a promethean giant?

Oh right, nobody can break the misdirection even when they can straight up see through it and beat him in his own game.

I like this invincible Fantomex.

i wonder if the merge allowed him to keep the misdirect

Originally posted by abhilegend
She did it on a different occasion.

But I like how Fantomex is this invincible character who cannot be fooled by someone else.

you....didn't read what i wrote through this discussion, did you? i said she COULD fool him. however, his misdirects tend to allow the opponent to see themselves winning. if she believes she won, she'd drop her power and he'd kill her. if she showed him the same thing, maybe they both drop powers but he still has his ranged weapons and he would kill her. at one time he has bullets that don't miss...

Originally posted by abhilegend
Why would this "celestial ship" be any different than controlling a promethean giant?

Oh right, nobody can break the misdirection even when they can straight up see through it and beat him in his own game.

I like this invincible Fantomex.

really abhi? both you and prep (solid company you're keeping ) have TOLD me repeatedly she can see through realities, and....neither of you have shown a damn thing. but i'm just supposed to go ahead and believe she can do what only jamie f'n braddock has ever done?? lol yeah....

you also claimed betsy broke a misdirect. still waiting to see that too.

btw--wth are u talking about with a promethean giant? SHIP is tech--high level artificial intelligence--a computer. the giants were living beings. they aren't even close in regards to the type of beings they are and how they would perceive things.

Originally posted by leonidas
not sure the shrink ray is standard--in fact, pretty sure it isn't. bullets ran out too, but they may be standard, depends when he's taken from. regardless, regular bullets end her unless i'm missing some info? and again--MISDIRECT IS NOT ILLUSIONS.

Shrink ray is standard, you're lucky I didn't use it

He got rid of Karnak that way IIRC.

lol using it once doesn't=standard.... he's used it on extremely rare occasions given the number of his appearances. in a tourney, if i were using fantomex, i wouldn't expect to have that as gear. as a host i wouldn't allow it either. he also doesn't need it here to win this.

Doesn't he always have the World with him though? He's always got it with him, to saefeguard it.

no, it's not always on his person. at points he's had it, at other times he's had it hidden at more often than not it's simply forgotten about by writers. which is too bad, because the best fantomex arcs have been the ones where the world played a role imo. he really is a great character. so much that could still be explored. the splitting of his minds was really dumb but writers could use the world and the weapon x history to really build on. he's def one of my fave "new" characters marvel has put out in the last bunch of years. morrison, go figure.

Originally posted by leonidas
you....didn't read what i wrote through this discussion, did you? i said she COULD fool him. however, his misdirects tend to allow the opponent to see themselves winning. if she believes she won, she'd drop her power and he'd kill her. if she showed him the same thing, maybe they both drop powers but he still has his ranged weapons and he would kill her. at one time he has bullets that don't miss...



really abhi? both you and prep (solid company you're keeping ) have TOLD me repeatedly she can see through realities, and....neither of you have shown a damn thing. but i'm just supposed to go ahead and believe she can do what only jamie f'n braddock has ever done?? lol yeah....

you also claimed betsy broke a misdirect. still waiting to see that too.

btw--wth are u talking about with a promethean giant? SHIP is tech--high level artificial intelligence--a computer. the giants were living beings. they aren't even close in regards to the type of beings they are and how they would perceive things.

Sensor Girl can affect machines too. And is fantomex immune to spells? She can conjure those up, too.

Just some notes, because **** quoting 9 million posts.

Fantomex's shrink gun works on inanimate objects only, per his own admission. https://s10.postimg.org/k6dxsipll/Shrink.jpg

Karnak knocked Fantomex out when they fought. (He was in The World because Young Jean mind freaked him. He wasn't shrank down, although it would be funny.)
https://s10.postimg.org/96sqgx6w9/Karnak1.jpg
https://s10.postimg.org/mnpozt4d5/Karnak2.jpg
https://s10.postimg.org/osa20vqk9/Karnak3.jpg
https://s10.postimg.org/z2ch04o5l/Karnak4.jpg

AoA Wolverine-ocalypse broke a misdirect too. AoA Iceman avoided it by hiding his consciousness. It doesn't take a high level reality warper to counter it, but rather a specific powerset it seems. We can't say for certain if Sensor Girl could do it, but I'm not opposed to the idea entirely.
https://postimg.org/image/ygwovjpv9/
https://postimg.org/image/w8dx0glnp/

Fantomex didn't break Deathlok's misdirect. Deathlok left a taunting message within the illusion, Fantomex saw it and the scenario ended. It's the same as when Archangel stabbed Fantomex in a misdirection but realized his wings were just stabbing the ground. Going out of bounds, so to speak, ends the thing.

Psylocke didn't break a misdirection. She ripped off Fantomex's TP blocker with TK, then got inside his head before KOing him after their fight.
https://postimg.org/image/b6iizk86t/

Prep man mentioned some kind of super speed and shields from Sensor Girl's ring? How fast and durable is she with that?

Yes, Fantomex can still misdirect after returning to normal. Xavier's consciousness is in his body currently though. And Proteus fused him with Psylocke last issue, so...more dumb shit to look forward to.
https://s10.postimg.org/pjbyy6ppl/RCO021.jpg
https://s10.postimg.org/du7za7r15/RCO022.jpg

My instinct is that the fight is a quickdraw, but I'm no Sensor Girl expert by any stretch.

I'm betting she can, since she can "remove the illusions of distance and size". Fantomex will try and fool sensor girl, but that "specific power set" of hers can: "She was also granted the power to see through the illusions of the world, be they illusions of size, or distance, or time, or even death."

i was aware of the apoc scene but he was in it for a lengthy period of time before he realized it was a lie. he believed he'd killed all of them before understanding what was going on. and even when he hit fantomex, he STILL saw the misdriect--he just knew that what was happening wasn't real. it didn't actually "break" until he struck fantomex and he ended it. misdirect never lasts very long. but breaking it? seeing "through it"? no one, not even that apoc, was able tot do that--and that apoc was uber... it wouldn't have to last long here either here. in that same arc (??) he misdirected one of the horseman's emotions into thinking it was "in love" and it killed itself. lol

and it failed against bobby because he didn't have a consciousness. again, not really relevant here and makes sense that without a consciousness something can't be misdirected. though i did completely forget about that scene.

based on who and how a misdirect has failed, i still see no reason whatsoever, especially based on the support, to think she can see through a misdriect. /shrug

Originally posted by StyleTime
Just some notes, because **** quoting 9 million posts.

Fantomex's shrink gun works on inanimate objects only, per his own admission. https://s10.postimg.org/k6dxsipll/Shrink.jpg

Karnak knocked Fantomex out when they fought. (He was in The World because Young Jean mind freaked him. He wasn't shrank down, although it would be funny.)
https://s10.postimg.org/96sqgx6w9/Karnak1.jpg
https://s10.postimg.org/mnpozt4d5/Karnak2.jpg
https://s10.postimg.org/osa20vqk9/Karnak3.jpg
https://s10.postimg.org/z2ch04o5l/Karnak4.jpg

AoA Wolverine-ocalypse broke a misdirect too. AoA Iceman avoided it by hiding his consciousness. It doesn't take a high level reality warper to counter it, but rather a specific powerset it seems. We can't say for certain if Sensor Girl could do it, but I'm not opposed to the idea entirely.
https://postimg.org/image/ygwovjpv9/
https://postimg.org/image/w8dx0glnp/

Fantomex didn't break Deathlok's misdirect. Deathlok left a taunting message within the illusion, Fantomex saw it and the scenario ended. It's the same as when Archangel stabbed Fantomex in a misdirection but realized his wings were just stabbing the ground. Going out of bounds, so to speak, ends the thing.

Psylocke didn't break a misdirection. She ripped off Fantomex's TP blocker with TK, then got inside his head before KOing him after their fight.
https://postimg.org/image/b6iizk86t/

Prep man mentioned some kind of super speed and shields from Sensor Girl's ring? How fast and durable is she with that?

Yes, Fantomex can still misdirect after returning to normal. Xavier's consciousness is in his body currently though. And Proteus fused him with Psylocke last issue, so...more dumb shit to look forward to.
https://s10.postimg.org/pjbyy6ppl/RCO021.jpg
https://s10.postimg.org/du7za7r15/RCO022.jpg

My instinct is that the fight is a quickdraw, but I'm no Sensor Girl expert by any stretch.

great post. a walking xavier with psi-knife and misdirect would be uber

about the shrink ray--i recall that scene now you posted it, but it's odd. the shrink ray gun doom created DID work on organics. so i wonder if he actually stole it from doom, or if that was another lie of his? if he did, it was clearly a different gun, or...he was lying to pool?

such a strange character. i still can't for the life of me figure out who the old woman in his house was. he introduced her to jean and charles, but i'd always believed her to be a construct of his--his house too was implied to be...not entirely real at one point. but we saw him talking to the old woman in a one-to-one scenario a couple times too. so strange.... though seems the recent developments with the character continue to disappoint. /shrug

Originally posted by Zack M
I'm betting she can, since she can "remove the illusions of distance and size". Fantomex will try and fool sensor girl, but that "specific power set" of hers can: "She was also granted the power to see through the illusions of the world, be they illusions of size, or distance, or time, or even death."
Yeah, it's possible. I'm thinking it's a quickdraw from what I've seen though.
Originally posted by leonidas
i was aware of the apoc scene but he was in it for a lengthy period of time before he realized it was a lie. he believed he'd killed all of them before understanding what was going on. and even when he hit fantomex, he STILL saw the misdriect--he just knew that what was happening wasn't real. it didn't actually "break" until he struck fantomex and he ended it. misdirect never lasts very long. but breaking it? seeing "through it"? no one, not even that apoc, was able tot do that--and that apoc was uber... it wouldn't have to last long here either here. in that same arc (??) he misdirected one of the horseman's emotions into thinking it was "in love" and it killed itself. lol

and it failed against bobby because he didn't have a consciousness. again, not really relevant here and makes sense that without a consciousness something can't be misdirected. though i did completely forget about that scene.

based on who and how a misdirect has failed, i still see no reason whatsoever, especially based on the support, to think she can see through a misdriect. /shrug
Certainly. I'm by no means arguing Sensor Girl can do it. I'm just not onboard with the idea that Goat Monk level power is required.

Originally posted by leonidas
about the shrink ray--i recall that scene now you posted it, but it's odd. the shrink ray gun doom created DID work on organics. so i wonder if he actually stole it from doom, or if that was another lie of his? if he did, it was clearly a different gun, or...he was lying to pool?

such a strange character. i still can't for the life of me figure out who the old woman in his house was. he introduced her to jean and charles, but i'd always believed her to be a construct of his--his house too was implied to be...not entirely real at one point. but we saw him talking to the old woman in a one-to-one scenario a couple times too. so strange.... though seems the recent developments with the character continue to disappoint. /shrug
He could be lying of course, but he's never shrank a person down to my knowledge.

Yeah, Fantomex could be discussed in his own thread tbh. He is intended to be a hall of mirrors, as Psylocke pointed out, so a nuanced discussion of him would include things that make vs matches difficult to handle. For example, we choose to privilege Remender's interpretation of misdirection because Uncanny X-Force was incredible, but misdirection is hardly consistent. It's also been presented as a form of hypnosis or just general illusion casting. This could explain why it's usually ineffective once people are engaged in combat with him, ala Karnak. The majority of his appearances, he just kinda fights like a gun-toting martial artist with a vague ability to lie really effectively. He often appears closer to TAO than anything else.

Not arguing for Sensor Girl, but we do need to acknowledge it's not cut and dry, taking all appearances into account.

Hey, Styletime. Here are some more feats.

I guess this is what her bio means when she can see through the worlds illusions.

https://i.imgur.com/2ZXZqNA.jpg

Sensor Girl has the power to phuck with ALL seeing Emerald Eye of Ekron

https://i.imgur.com/OeOogVe.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/zWe14g2.jpg

Sensor Girl Vs Persuader

https://i.imgur.com/fuOQRc0.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Ka2xFYG.jpg

Sensor (ZH) has the ability to block telepathic assaults, even as powerful as Universo's, who had universal TP.

https://i.imgur.com/9izbttK.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/OGxmSk6.jpg


Here she even fools Universo.
https://i.imgur.com/truX8lb.jpg

Saturn Girl made Universo believe that he was winning.
https://i.imgur.com/Nq2f5Je.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/840QOwX.jpg

SG implants false memories in Saturn Girl.

https://i.imgur.com/4PKFzjN.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/tEH3na1.jpg

geezus prep. stop with irrelevant scans. yes she can fool him. that has NEVER been the issue. fact is you still haven't shown anything that leads me to believe she can see through his power.

Originally posted by StyleTime
Yeah, it's possible. I'm thinking it's a quickdraw from what I've seen though.

maybe, though i don't think the winner of the quick draw really matters. the type of 'illusion' is what matters. like i said, if she thinks she's won, seems logical she'd dispel her own illusion at which point she would die. she seems far less likely to create that type of scenario than he does imo. plus his ranged weapons are a huge edge here if both illusions are foregone.



to understand what is happening? maybe not, though the only time it happen is after a logical contradiction gives it away. to actually "break" the power? even fantomex said no one has ever done what braddock did. it's def ill-defined in nature, but imo it is a type of reality altering. it doesn't last long, and has been called several different things, but i think the initial intent was this. and the reason we favor remender's take is because, at least imo, it closely echoes morrison's original take. morrison intro'd the old woman--who i don't think was intended to be real--and had him effortlessly fooling jean and charles. later takes and opinions don't seem to be in line with that.

when the 'evil' fantomex took all the misdirect power though, we saw just how powerful it could be if not nanite controlled. betsy was IN the reality, knew it, and still took it for real. it's def more than the usual illusion power, even if it's not actual reality warping. and we know it's not telepathic in nature as well, so, doesn't leave much left i guess.




he tried misdirect against karnak and it failed? where was this?



yeah, so much potential for him.



maybe not in the sense that he can be fooled too. but i see no reason whatsoever to think she can see through his power and the way he uses his power makes it seem like he's the one more likely to win this than not most of the time.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree there.

So, yeah, Sensor Girl can see through ALL illusions of the World. Fantomex uses illusions.

https://i.imgur.com/Vdcjl9b.jpg

Originally posted by leonidas


to understand what is happening? maybe not, though the only time it happen is after a logical contradiction gives it away. to actually "break" the power? even fantomex said no one has ever done what braddock did. it's def ill-defined in nature, but imo it is a type of reality altering. it doesn't last long, and has been called several different things, but i think the initial intent was this. and the reason we favor remender's take is because, at least imo, it closely echoes morrison's original take. morrison intro'd the old woman--who i don't think was intended to be real--and had him effortlessly fooling jean and charles. later takes and opinions don't seem to be in line with that.

when the 'evil' fantomex took all the misdirect power though, we saw just how powerful it could be if not nanite controlled. betsy was IN the reality, knew it, and still took it for real. it's def more than the usual illusion power, even if it's not actual reality warping. and we know it's not telepathic in nature as well, so, doesn't leave much left i guess.


he tried misdirect against karnak and it failed? where was this?

I disagree. We've retroactively applied Remender to Morrison in this case. Fantomex's misdirection was literal then. He read body language, lied effectively, and used spy skills to distract people from his motives. There was no paranormal element, other than doing it really effectively. It was just a slight of hand.

Truthfully, he never misdirected Jean or Xavier. I'm not sure where this forum myth began, but he only lied to them. The lady, the house, etc were all real, and it doesn't violate Morrison's intent. Morrison intended him to be a liar, so he lied. Fantomex enjoyed being inscrutable to the two most powerful telepaths in the world. He poured wine on his own head, lied about the info on the cd(which he stored with his porn collection), and wants 1 billion dollars from Xavier. He was screwing with them the entire time, so they don't what to do other than follow him. It totally makes sense he'd lie about the existence of the old lady. It's what he does. It doesn't give you time to think, so you might just let him go, like Jean did, in the tunnel.

No, I'm saying the Karnak showing is consistent with his inability to apply this stuff to virtually all the fist fights he gets in. Maybe it's more difficult to cast while he's brawling, or maybe it is some form of hypnosis that doesn't work when your opponent is already engaged on you. Even Remender presents some examples of him talking people into the illusion, hypnotist style.

Remender undoubtedly writes the best Fantomex(best version of all those characters tbh), but he really is the outlier here. Same with him taking Psylocke's tk away. His version isn't any closer to Morrison's than anyone else's tbh, and is further away in many regards.

Weapon XIII(Evil Fantomex)exists but the nanites render that moot. And Psylocke still beat him in a fight too, circling back to what I said earlier about it's combat function.

Originally posted by leonidas

maybe, though i don't think the winner of the quick draw really matters. the type of 'illusion' is what matters. like i said, if she thinks she's won, seems logical she'd dispel her own illusion at which point she would die. she seems far less likely to create that type of scenario than he does imo. plus his ranged weapons are a huge edge here if both illusions are foregone.


Possibly. Would it really be enough time though? If she broke his neck, the illusory Fantomex fades immediately. I don't know if she'd turn hers off since the realization would logically hit so quickly.

I do admit however, he might kill hers before she kills his due to his guns. Shooting an illusion is logically faster than flying over to punch it, unless she is way faster than I'm thinking.

So we're on the same page.

Legion flight ring, anyone? If she can dodge attacks from Emerald Empress and others, fantomex's guns won't pose any new threat.

Originally posted by StyleTime
I disagree. We've retroactively applied Remender to Morrison in this case. Fantomex's misdirection was literal then. He read body language, lied effectively, and used spy skills to distract people from his motives. There was no paranormal element, other than doing it really effectively. It was just a slight of hand.

i also disagree. he used a misdirection to make the building appear to partially explode or catch fire. then that brainless guy was sent into the building. the explosion wasn't sleight of hand imo. it was the first manifestation of his powers. whether that is his mutant power (or whether he is even an actual mutant at all) is up for grabs i guess.



well, they did see the explosion he created, but he didn't really misdirect THEM with that display, true.



hmm, not sure that's true--at least as initial intent goes. was he just lying again to jean when she asked him about the old woman and he replied "what old woman?" maybe, but i had the feeling that by the end he was actually telling jean the truth.

later she was seen again and was apparently killed, so i guess she was real by then, but i'm not sure about the original intent. i'd love to ask morrison.



maybe. but like i said, it felt like by the end he was opening up some to jean. you could be right, but i think he was def more than just a liar.



however he goes about creating the construct, doesn't much matter. he does seem to need time to cast it though, so i can see why in direct combat he doesn't use it. it's also a tough power for a writer to work in, plausibly since it can be such a difficult power to overcome.



again, i'll disagree. he seemed to actively pursue lines morrison hinted at--the world, his 'mother', the history hinted at by morrison. possibly others did likewise, but i think remender came closest to following in the spirit of the character and maybe approximating what morrison himself would have liked to see from the character.



he's been beaten plenty of times in fights, but why distinguish weapon xiii as "evil fantomex"? weapon xiii was just fantomex....

Originally posted by StyleTime
Possibly. Would it really be enough time though? If she broke his neck, the illusory Fantomex fades immediately. I don't know if she'd turn hers off since the realization would logically hit so quickly.

I do admit however, he might kill hers before she kills his due to his guns. Shooting an illusion is logically faster than flying over to punch it, unless she is way faster than I'm thinking.

So we're on the same page.

not sure how she breaks his neck though. starting distance is half a kilometer away. also not sure how she'd logic her way out if all she saw was her winning the battle... she sees herself trick him with an illusion, sees herself ko him, she's done and turns off her power. once her power fades he sees her and shoots her. shrug

Fantomex also lost to Gambit.

https://i.imgur.com/mMdVYMn.png

With Sensor Girl's ability to see through illusions, mental tricks, it's her fight to lose, IMO.

Originally posted by leonidas
i also disagree. he used a misdirection to make the building appear to partially explode or catch fire. then that brainless guy was sent into the building. the explosion wasn't sleight of hand imo. it was the first manifestation of his powers. whether that is his mutant power (or whether he is even an actual mutant at all) is up for grabs i guess.
That smoke and light display was E.V.A. It wasn't an illusion.
Originally posted by leonidas
hmm, not sure that's true--at least as initial intent goes. was he just lying again to jean when she asked him about the old woman and he replied "what old woman?" maybe, but i had the feeling that by the end he was actually telling jean the truth.

later she was seen again and was apparently killed, so i guess she was real by then, but i'm not sure about the original intent. i'd love to ask morrison.

maybe. but like i said, it felt like by the end he was opening up some to jean. you could be right, but i think he was def more than just a liar.

It was ambiguous true, and only Morrison can truly know. But it's likely he intended for it to be just that, confusing.
Originally posted by leonidas

however he goes about creating the construct, doesn't much matter. he does seem to need time to cast it though, so i can see why in direct combat he doesn't use it. it's also a tough power for a writer to work in, plausibly since it can be such a difficult power to overcome.

I'm only discussing the method since it would have implications for who it works against.

I personally prefer the Remender presentation too. Factoring in cast time, which Remender gave us, might explain why it doesn't come into play much against other low metas. I'm just saying it can get weird if someone really wants to press the issue.
Originally posted by leonidas

again, i'll disagree. he seemed to actively pursue lines morrison hinted at--the world, his 'mother', the history hinted at by morrison. possibly others did likewise, but i think remender came closest to following in the spirit of the character and maybe approximating what morrison himself would have liked to see from the character.

he's been beaten plenty of times in fights, but why distinguish weapon xiii as "evil fantomex"? weapon xiii was just fantomex....
Remender was definitely the strongest in terms of quality, but the other writers were faithful thematically. They are just shittier writers lol. Fantomex isn't easy to write as a character.

That was the name he went by. I was just clarifying since we keep calling him "Evil Fantomex" on the boards. Similar to how the female went by Cluster.

Originally posted by StyleTime
That smoke and light display was E.V.A. It wasn't an illusion.



went back and looked at that, and yep, you're right. not sure how i didn't remember that.

sounds like we're on the same page with most of the rest, so, again,

Originally posted by StyleTime
Karnak knocked Fantomex out when they fought. (He was in The World because Young Jean mind freaked him. He wasn't shrank down, although it would be funny.)
https://s10.postimg.org/96sqgx6w9/Karnak1.jpg
https://s10.postimg.org/mnpozt4d5/Karnak2.jpg
https://s10.postimg.org/osa20vqk9/Karnak3.jpg
https://s10.postimg.org/z2ch04o5l/Karnak4.jpg



53 years of comics and Karnak finally gets a decent feat

Originally posted by leonidas
not sure how she breaks his neck though. starting distance is half a kilometer away. also not sure how she'd logic her way out if all she saw was her winning the battle... she sees herself trick him with an illusion, sees herself ko him, she's done and turns off her power. once her power fades he sees her and shoots her. shrug
I meant within the illusion. If she breaks the illusion's neck, it'd be over right away like when Magik slashed the fake Fantomex. It vanished instantly. I don't think it'd be enough time post-realization for her to actually deactivate her own illusion.

Might be irrelevant if Fantomex has already bypassed hers of course.
Originally posted by Zack M
Fantomex also lost to Gambit.

https://i.imgur.com/mMdVYMn.png

With Sensor Girl's ability to see through illusions, mental tricks, it's her fight to lose, IMO.
They did have a pretty back and forth fight, although circumstances prevented them from going all out. Presented misdirection as a mental attack though, although I'm unsure why he didn't use it on Gambit. He had time to do it on the guards.
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
53 years of comics and Karnak finally gets a decent feat


Yeah, he was using his weak point detection to break through Teen Jean's telepathy loop too, although it took days.

Originally posted by StyleTime
I meant within the illusion. If she breaks the illusion's neck, it'd be over right away like when Magik slashed the fake Fantomex. It vanished instantly. I don't think it'd be enough time post-realization for her to actually deactivate her own illusion.

Might be irrelevant if Fantomex has already bypassed hers of course.


i don't see a way he bypasses her illusions. if he pulls something like he did against the horsemen, i could easily see the misdirect lasting long enough for her to believe she actually killed him, then discontinue the illusion and end up shot. he made it seem like nightcrawler beheaded deadpool pretty easily. he isn't always part of the construct. far as i can see, no reason he couldn't create a fake scene of himself getting killed while still a good distance away. he made logan think he'd cut his arms off, not sure why he couldn't make her think she snapped his neck. or maybe he just shows her what she wants to see, as he did again with one of the horsemen, and takes her out that way. the effects can be a bit inconsistent, but using him at his best capacity? i still don't really see any logical ways she wins this without proof that she, or anyone, really, can actually see through the misdirect. /shrug

Originally posted by StyleTime
I meant within the illusion. If she breaks the illusion's neck, it'd be over right away like when Magik slashed the fake Fantomex. It vanished instantly. I don't think it'd be enough time post-realization for her to actually deactivate her own illusion.

Might be irrelevant if Fantomex has already bypassed hers of course.

They did have a pretty back and forth fight, although circumstances prevented them from going all out. Presented misdirection as a mental attack though, although I'm unsure why he didn't use it on Gambit. He had time to do it on the guards.



Yeah, he was using his weak point detection to break through Teen Jean's telepathy loop too, although it took days.

Like you said, maybe he has a hard time doing it on people he fights with. And Sensor Girl is a pretty damn good fighter, seeing as she trained under Val Armorr. But, Sensor Girl is seriously more versatile all around. Remote sensing, telepathy, illusion casting, able to block out EXTREMELY high telepaths, martial artists, Magic user, Legion Flight ring (Which is Nth Metal, BTW), able to actually take ALL the five senses away, able to sense through illusions, etc...

I think she has this in the bag.

Originally posted by leonidas
i don't see a way he bypasses her illusions. if he pulls something like he did against the horsemen, i could easily see the misdirect lasting long enough for her to believe she actually killed him, then discontinue the illusion and end up shot. he made it seem like nightcrawler beheaded deadpool pretty easily. he isn't always part of the construct. far as i can see, no reason he couldn't create a fake scene of himself getting killed while still a good distance away. he made logan think he'd cut his arms off, not sure why he couldn't make her think she snapped his neck. or maybe he just shows her what she wants to see, as he did again with one of the horsemen, and takes her out that way. the effects can be a bit inconsistent, but using him at his best capacity? i still don't really see any logical ways she wins this without proof that she, or anyone, really, can actually see through the misdirect. /shrug
Certainly. I'm just not sure he's going to create anything more than a basic decoy while he's under her spell as well. With Wolverine and the Horseman, he wasn't also fighting something himself.

We're in uncharted territory here since we've never this double illusion scenario, but I think it's reasonable to expect that their best illusions won't be present.
Originally posted by Zack M
Like you said, maybe he has a hard time doing it on people he fights with. And Sensor Girl is a pretty damn good fighter, seeing as she trained under Val Armorr. But, Sensor Girl is seriously more versatile all around. Remote sensing, telepathy, illusion casting, able to block out EXTREMELY high telepaths, martial artists, Magic user, Legion Flight ring (Which is Nth Metal, BTW), able to actually take ALL the five senses away, able to sense through illusions, etc...

I think she has this in the bag.
Well, versatility won't necessarily amount to a win.

Originally posted by StyleTime
Certainly. I'm just not sure he's going to create anything more than a basic decoy while he's under her spell as well. With Wolverine and the Horseman, he wasn't also fighting something himself.

We're in uncharted territory here since we've never this double illusion scenario, but I think it's reasonable to expect that their best illusions won't be present.


i dunno, i don't think her illusion would impact him or his choice. match starts, misdirect. match starts illusion. not sure how neither wouldn't use their 'best'. i guess it could be argued he might not go for the misdirect off the bat, but given basic knowledge i'd think he likely would. he'd cast his misdirect before he even knew what her illusion was. she'd do the same. she'd see herself kill him and.... /shrug

Originally posted by StyleTime
Certainly. I'm just not sure he's going to create anything more than a basic decoy while he's under her spell as well. With Wolverine and the Horseman, he wasn't also fighting something himself.

We're in uncharted territory here since we've never this double illusion scenario, but I think it's reasonable to expect that their best illusions won't be present.

Well, versatility won't necessarily amount to a win.

No, but it gives her more options and defense against FX attacks. Is Fantomex immune to magic?

Originally posted by leonidas
i dunno, i don't think her illusion would impact him or his choice. match starts, misdirect. match starts illusion. not sure how neither wouldn't use their 'best'. i guess it could be argued he might not go for the misdirect off the bat, but given basic knowledge i'd think he likely would. he'd cast his misdirect before he even knew what her illusion was. she'd do the same. she'd see herself kill him and.... /shrug
I'm saying he had time to focus and concentrate during those examples though. He was literally sitting for the Horsemen thing.

It just seems clear there is maintenance required for the more elaborate illusions, and I don't know if he could do it while fighting another illusion off himself. That's why I don't know if it'd really last past her "defeating" the image.

My guess is that they both fight the images down, then brawl with Fantomex having the firearms advantage. Or just skip straight to the fighting if she comes at him, like with Agent Zero.
https://postimg.org/image/y6a0kg7lh/
https://postimg.org/image/ixk36o679/
https://postimg.org/image/b4tfepfnp/
https://postimg.org/image/h4h6ixl6t/
https://postimg.org/image/pzi0tghp1/
https://postimg.org/image/665x0dtx1/
https://postimg.org/image/89gc8eool/

Originally posted by Zack M
No, but it gives her more options and defense against FX attacks. Is Fantomex immune to magic?
He isn't immune to magic, no. Hasn't run up against it much.

Assuming she could see through it yeah, but, that's debatable.

Originally posted by Zack M
Like you said, maybe he has a hard time doing it on people he fights with. And Sensor Girl is a pretty damn good fighter, seeing as she trained under Val Armorr. But, Sensor Girl is seriously more versatile all around. Remote sensing, telepathy, illusion casting, able to block out EXTREMELY high telepaths, martial artists, Magic user, Legion Flight ring (Which is Nth Metal, BTW), able to actually take ALL the five senses away, able to sense through illusions, etc...

I think she has this in the bag.

If anyone could see through a misdirect, she should.


The Celestial ship feat is nice, but I'd rather see him defeating a magic anti plot device ability like the Spider-Sense. Or trying to fool Xavier.

Originally posted by StyleTime
I'm saying he had time to focus and concentrate during those examples though. He was literally sitting for the Horsemen thing.

It just seems clear there is maintenance required for the more elaborate illusions, and I don't know if he could do it while fighting another illusion off himself. That's why I don't know if it'd really last past her "defeating" the image.

My guess is that they both fight the images down, then brawl with Fantomex having the firearms advantage. Or just skip straight to the fighting if she comes at him, like with Agent Zero.
https://postimg.org/image/y6a0kg7lh/
https://postimg.org/image/ixk36o679/
https://postimg.org/image/b4tfepfnp/
https://postimg.org/image/h4h6ixl6t/
https://postimg.org/image/pzi0tghp1/
https://postimg.org/image/665x0dtx1/
https://postimg.org/image/89gc8eool/


He isn't immune to magic, no. Hasn't run up against it much.

Assuming she could see through it yeah, but, that's debatable.

If she can see through illusions, then why can't she see through Fantomex's?

Also, getting into a fight with someone who can take your senses away wouldn't be smart. She can take away Fantomex's sight, sound, etc... plus, she's more skilled than Agent Zero. This is why I pointed out Sensor Girl's versatility. It gives her an advantage.

Originally posted by cdtm
If anyone could see through a misdirect, she should.


The Celestial ship feat is nice, but I'd rather see him defeating a magic anti plot device ability like the Spider-Sense. Or trying to fool Xavier.

Yeah, I would love to see Fantomex misdirected someone like Jackie.

Sensor Girl seeing through the illusions of the world.

https://i.imgur.com/0daBHBG.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/kQTsdHT.jpg