19 BBY Vader's opponents vs SWTOR

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DarthSkywalker0
Roan Shryne, Jax Paven, Sha Koon, and The Dark Women Vs. Kao Cen Darach, Ven Zallow, Knight Shan, and Aryn Laneer.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Team 2 stomps.

And funny enough, the Dark Woman isn’t even a 19 BBY Vader opponent.

The Ellimist
To be semi-serious, it's interesting to wonder how the average PT Jedi compares to the average TOR one. You might intuitively think there's some parity (so "oh these are no-name PT Jedi" would be a valid argument against them), but then you'd find that the tail-ends are hilariously in the PT's favor - where you find Yoda, Anakin, Mace Windu, Obi Wan, etc. vs... the HoT, Satele...Barsen Thor...

So does the PT just have a much better elite-tier but comparable average-tier? Why is this obvious? I don't see why we should assume that its advantage is exclusively on the tail-ends. "They have a better overall pool of Force users" is a plausible explanation, if not necessarily the right one.

(I'm aware of the "prime of the Jedi even moreso than PT" quote related to KotOR, not sure how to interpret it)

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
I was legit going to bring up the KOTOR quote, yep. Pretty sure the context is combat, too.

Azronger
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
I was legit going to bring up the KOTOR quote, yep. Pretty sure the context is combat, too.

Been retconned

Zenwolf
Originally posted by The Ellimist
To be semi-serious, it's interesting to wonder how the average PT Jedi compares to the average TOR one. You might intuitively think there's some parity (so "oh these are no-name PT Jedi" would be a valid argument against them), but then you'd find that the tail-ends are hilariously in the PT's favor - where you find Yoda, Anakin, Mace Windu, Obi Wan, etc. vs... the HoT, Satele...Barsen Thor...

So does the PT just have a much better elite-tier but comparable average-tier? Why is this obvious? I don't see why we should assume that its advantage is exclusively on the tail-ends. "They have a better overall pool of Force users" is a plausible explanation, if not necessarily the right one.

(I'm aware of the "prime of the Jedi even moreso than PT" quote related to KotOR, not sure how to interpret it)

I mean most of the feats for your average Jedi do come from the PT timeframe, they have the most feats but then this isn't surprising given that it has all the main movie characters surrounding them.

The Jedi Path basically goes more in depth as to what the PT Jedi go through and they have an advantage with training given the holoprojection simulator which enables Jedi who go for the rank of Knight, can square off against Sith Lords of the past. The Jedi Path being written by Fae Coven, among other Jedi Masters which gave all their knowledge + whatever else is put in

Among other things such as a wider resource of knowledge and so forth as they travel the galaxy. This all being said

Fresh Jedi Knight from training> fresh Old Republic Jedi Knight from training. As far as I see it, but again we don't really have much in the way of what the Old Republic did for Jedi training at least in depth.

But I mean, let's say for even sake they had all the same training and the Jedi Path was just written in order to document in all for reference.

Ok so the average Jedi Knight of the PT era is = to an average Jedi Knight of the OR from out of their training. Given that Yoda was leading the Jedi Order to fight the Sith of old if they ever came back, this would make sense. Ok so lets go with that then, sure, it's believable.

So then it's more of the galaxy that would shape the Jedi Knight and whatever they encountered.

The OR Jedi Knight might head off to fight the Sith warriors or Sith Lords, or whoever in a war. They get struck down and die, so right off the bat they're stuck being dead and thus can't improve or pass on what they've learned.

However if they survive, they gain more knowledge of fighting and a better grasp at whatever their opponent might sling at them in the future.

The PT Jedi Knight meanwhile, obviously they're are no Sith to fight given the timeframe. However there's still dangerous combatants such as Mandalorians, A-Series Assassin Droids, Mercenaries, Noghri, so on and so forth. Now yes, obviously I'm not saying these guys are = to Sith, but the thing is...it's still combat experience, they still learn how to better themselves both offensively and defensively. They also duel/spar with fellow Jedi in combat, which again also helps to improve their abilities.

It's the same with the OR Knight, if the PT Jedi dies they obviously can't improve or pass on anything. However the PT Jedi has more chance of a survival and improve upon themselves and then pass on what they have learned later when they aren't fighting.

I mean it's not like when the Sith came back, the OR Jedi suddenly knew how to fight them or have just got finished fighting them after only a few years. So it's not like the OR Jedi war experience would have any sort of big enough edge to tilt things into favor for them.

So here it is.

The PT Jedi and OR Jedi are equal to one another(again if we take The Jedi Path as just finally recording what all the Jedi have done as far as training goes and it isn't limited to just the PT era.), they do have different means of getting to where they are, but neither are greater than the other.

However if you don't, then the fresh trained PT Jedi Knight is > to the OR Jedi Knight just on the grounds with what they have at their disposal as far as training resources, teacher wisdom passed down and so on.

Luke's Jedi Knights if the JK: JO and JK: JA are any indication, given he's had this book, this shows his students being able to get trained to the point of being able to handle multiple dark Jedi on their own and show an impressive array of Force Powers at a time. So they should also be on roughly the same level, give or take.

But if you start mixing experience through, then that's where things could turn tails to either end, but that has many variables in it.

LordOfTheLight
Originally posted by Azronger
Been retconned

That and there are "many" more quotes in favor of the PT era.

Geistalt
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
I was legit going to bring up the KOTOR quote, yep. Pretty sure the context is combat, too. The quote in question?

Nephthys
"Even more so than in the Clone Wars, these are the days of the Jedi in their prime."

AncientPower
None of this matters, TOR pretty much creams.

ILS
Could you even take the four best Jedi 19-17BBY Vader has beaten, and have them winning this thread? Any takers on putting such a ferocious squad together?

Deronn_solo
Yeah, team two pretty much ejaculates on Vader's foes.

deathslash
Roan is the only really notable one on team PT. I could see him beating anyone on team two, but he's not gonna be enough.

Nephthys
Roan is not better than any of these guys tbh.

ILS
Has Roan done anything impressive that isn't reliant on his fight with Vader?

Nephthys
I don't think so, he spends most of the book with a nerfed force connection. He was a member of the Old Guard but that's about it as I recall.

Total Warrior

deathslash
Originally posted by Nephthys
Roan is not better than any of these guys tbh. naw, he did just as well against Vader as ESB Luke did. Difference being that Vader was actually fighting to kill him.

ILS
Bearing in mind Vader was much more powerful by then, and still no feats that aren't based off of Vader himself?

The Ellimist
Originally posted by deathslash
naw, he did just as well against Vader as ESB Luke did. Difference being that Vader was actually fighting to kill him.

Not to intrude on the trolling but we should note that Vader receives an enormous power-up immediately following his victory which is implied to be to an extent he's never felt before, so the implicit Vader lowballing from it is kinda silly.

(not a direct disagreement with you, just quoting for a jumping point)

JMANGO
Not forgetting that the guy just compared him to esb luke... the same person who's lightsaber skill is non existent at this point, and while in calm state of mind, can't even TK an x-wing.

SheGotHerOwn
Originally posted by JMANGO
Not forgetting that the guy just compared him to esb luke... the same person who's lightsaber skill is non existent at this point, and while in calm state of mind, can't even TK an x-wing.
except luke's lightsaber skill is described pretty impressively in Insider 62 fightsaber. his lightsaber skill isn't ''non existent''

Nephthys
Originally posted by deathslash
naw, he did just as well against Vader as ESB Luke did. Difference being that Vader was actually fighting to kill him.

Roan fought a Vader a few months after RotS. He was a relative feeb at that point, barely used to his new self at all. Roan is likely an above average Jedi Master, but that's about it.

aalyasecura95
the dark woman trained aurra who iirc contended with qui gon jinn and obi wan and also jacen solo aka darth caedus. so i would say that the dark woman is better than any on team 2 by a long way but whether she can carry the team is another matter.

FreshestSlice
Training someone does not make you remotely comparable to them, or them comparable to you.

aalyasecura95
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Training someone does not make you remotely comparable to them, or them comparable to you. hmm maybe not always but aurra only had very limited training so it is unlikely that she would have surpassed her master. logically they at least should be in the same general area if not the dark woman being superior. if we don't know for sure then that is the safest bet.

FreshestSlice
Using SWTOR as an example, as it's in this thread, Baras limited the Wrath's training because he thought that would lead to him dying, which it did. Didn't stop him from being defeated. Your logic doesn't make any sense.

aalyasecura95
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Using SWTOR as an example, as it's in this thread, Baras limited the Wrath's training because he thought that would lead to him dying, which it did. Didn't stop him from being defeated. Your logic doesn't make any sense. well the emperors wrath clearly has very high raw power/potential relative to most of his time so it is not unbelievable for him to surpass his master even when his training was limited because raw power has a v.strong effect on power growth. so that would be an exception and not comparable, imo. aurra's training was also far more limited than the wrath's as it stopped when she was only 9 years old before she even mastered the basics, whereas the wrath had an 'accelerated training regime' in his time at the sith academy and constantly practiced via the intense warfare of those times.

and so without any reason to believe that aurra is a high potential character who can grow despite lack of technical knowledge or knowledge on how to properly control her power, i would say it is logical to say that the dark woman is superior.

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