So did Palpatine want Anakin to kill him?

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.



The Ellimist
Palpatine clearly expected Knightfall Vader to eventually challenge and overthrow him. It's a weird self-sacrificing angle that also applies to all Banite Sith, but it's especially bizarre with Palpatine because we then learn that he intends to become some sort of universal God.

Did he plan to somehow keep Vader under his thumb even if he hadn't lost his potential? Delusional. Was he going to kill him before he grew that powerful? Obviously not or why bother turning him? Was he planning to try to essence transfer into Anakin? Extremely risky given Anakin's innate power.

Did he change his mind and adopt the God-Emperor plan after Vader's injuries? If that were the case why would he want to turn Skywalker, and then allegedly want to rule forever with the Skywalkers as a "dynasty" by his side (at least in Legends)? An apprenticed Luke would clearly eventually try to overthrow him, and have a very good chance of succeeding.

So maybe finding a successor was plan A, becoming God himself was plan B, and we just ignore the ruling forever with Skywalkers by his side part?

Kurk
Probably yeah. Like a true sith, Palpatine was prepared to sacrifice his own interests to allow the lineage to grow more powerful. We see the same thing with Dooku in Dark Disciple. Yeah he's an arrogant c*nt with his own intentions of ruling at Sheev's side, but he's prepared to accept his inferiority to Vos and let him take the spot instead. This is also one of the reasons why he didn't rat out Sidious in RotS IMO.

Galan007
I don't think Sheev ever believed Vader would turn on him, until he was literally hurling down the reactor shaft in RotJ. That said, I believe he was okay with having an apprentice that would never try to kill him, because his ultimate goal was to essentially become 'God' by attaining an ultimate power that would allow him to reshape the universe in his own image... And thanks to the World Between Worlds, Palpatine knew that such power was indeed attainable. He wanted this power more than anything, and I highly doubt that desire ended after his final temptation of Ezra in Rebels -- I imagine he continued seeking out a gateway to that realm up until his death.

Suffice to say, Palpatine seemed to regard Vader as more of a pawn/lapdog that simply did his bidding, rather than an eventual 'replacement'. Imo. /shrug

SheGotHerOwn
Originally posted by Kurk
Probably yeah. Like a true sith, Palpatine was prepared to sacrifice his own interests to allow the lineage to grow more powerful. We see the same thing with Dooku in Dark Disciple. Yeah he's an arrogant c*nt with his own intentions of ruling at Sheev's side, but he's prepared to accept his inferiority to Vos and let him take the spot instead. This is also one of the reasons why he didn't rat out Sidious in RotS IMO.
sidious and many banite sith before him stopped following bane's rule of two tho, since they all wanted to be the final sith lmao

The Ellimist
Originally posted by Galan007
I don't think Sheev ever believed Vader would turn on him, until he was literally hurling down the reactor shaft in RotJ. That said, I believe he was okay with having an apprentice that would never try to kill him, because his ultimate goal was to essentially become 'God' by attaining an ultimate power that would allow him to reshape the universe in his own image... And thanks to the World Between Worlds, Palpatine knew that such power was indeed attainable. He wanted this power more than anything, and I highly doubt that desire ended after his final temptation of Ezra in Rebels -- I imagine he continued seeking out a gateway to that realm up until his death.

Suffice to say, Palpatine seemed to regard Vader as more of a pawn/lapdog that simply did his bidding, rather than an eventual 'replacement'. Imo. /shrug

Pre-Mustafar Vader was well on track to far outstripping Sidious in power. Had he not suffered those injuries it seems pretty inevitable that Vader would've confronted him at some point, and probably won.

Galan007
Most likely, but that's irrelevant because Mustafar did happen, and Anakin was left as little more than a shell of the man he could have been.

The Ellimist
Right, I was talking about Palpatine's original intentions (hence "Anakin"wink. Though even after that his intentions to turn Luke have a similar paradox.

DarthPlaguis12
I think that sidious was expecting Vader to one day succeed him but that was when he was able to reach his full potential.

After he was crippled and no longer able to reach that full potential sidious likely thoiyht of him as more replaceable

I think Vader would never have turned on him if not for the fact Vader found out he had kids

relentless1
Palpatine as of ROTS knew Vader would eventually overthrow him and he was ok with that as per his line to Yoda : "Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us" but once Ani took that lava dip his plans changed of course and he was always looking for a more powerful apprentice from then on.

Zentrex
He kept Vader under his control in such a way that Vader would never dream of rebelling against him, even if he were more powerful. I imagine that's what he wanted from Anakin all along.

NewGuy01
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Did he plan to somehow keep Vader under his thumb even if he hadn't lost his potential? Delusional.

Bingo.

That was when Mace finally understood. He had it. The key to final victory. Palpatine's shatterpoint. The absolute shatter-point of the Sith. The shatterpoint of the dark side itself.

Palpatine trusts Anakin Skywalker.

--Revenge of the Sith novelization

The Ellimist
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Bingo.

That was when Mace finally understood. He had it. The key to final victory. Palpatine's shatterpoint. The absolute shatter-point of the Sith. The shatterpoint of the dark side itself.

Palpatine trusts Anakin Skywalker.

--Revenge of the Sith novelization

Pretty sure that's more short term (e.g. "Anakin will side with me over Windu"wink than Palpatine thinking a full potential Father-level Anakin would still bend the knee to him.

NewGuy01
Are you seriously not getting that it's referencing RotJ as well?

Galan007
thumb up

This is a man who had absolute trust in Vader until the very end:

https://i.imgur.com/yt3NCwa.jpg

The Ellimist
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Are you seriously not getting that it's referencing RotJ as well?

Not the same context post-suit at all. Sidious repeatedly references the desire for Vader to "succeed" him throughout Legends:

I regret Vader disappointed me early on when he allowed himself to be mutilated by Kenobi. Yes, Vader remained strong in the Force, but strong enough to succeed me? Never.

and when he appears unable to, tries to find other "successors". He has "trust" in Anakin in the sense that he trusts he'll carry on the Sith mantle, not that he'll magically be subservient to him for all time lol.

DarthSkywalker0
I initially agreed with Sas, but it does appear Sidious wanted a successor.

Freedon Nadd
Palpatine just wanted a mighty weapon? He had no fear Anakin would kill him as Darth Vader because he would have no reason to.

The Ellimist
up

Freedon Nadd
Down.

relentless1
"Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us"

- Darth Sidious to Yoda

The.D0minator
Sidious didn't want a successor. ''Through study, I will soon learn how to defeat death. While I may choose apprentices, I will never choose a successor.''

Freedon Nadd
Light has been shed.

Freedon Nadd
Originally posted by relentless1
"Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us"

- Darth Sidious to Yoda

Because he'd have a living invincible weapon?

Galan007
Originally posted by Galan007
I don't think Sheev ever believed Vader would turn on him, until he was literally hurling down the reactor shaft in RotJ. That said, I believe he was okay with having an apprentice that would never try to kill him, because his ultimate goal was to essentially become 'God' by attaining an ultimate power that would allow him to reshape the universe in his own image... And thanks to the World Between Worlds, Palpatine knew that such power was indeed attainable. He wanted this power more than anything, and I highly doubt that desire ended after his final temptation of Ezra in Rebels -- I imagine he continued seeking out a gateway to that realm up until his death.

Suffice to say, Palpatine seemed to regard Vader as more of a pawn/lapdog that simply did his bidding, rather than an eventual 'replacement'. Imo. /shrug To add to this, I think post-Mustafar Vader was also wise enough to know that he simply was not powerful enough to destroy Palpatine by himself, and would have never been foolish enough to try. That much was made abundantly clear in this scene:
https://s7d1.turboimg.net/t1/38185022_Darth_Vader_006-015.jpg https://s7d1.turboimg.net/t1/38185023_Darth_Vader_006-016.jpg https://s7d1.turboimg.net/t1/38185025_Darth_Vader_006-017.jpg https://s7d1.turboimg.net/t1/38185026_Darth_Vader_006-018.jpg https://s7d1.turboimg.net/t1/38185028_Darth_Vader_006-019.jpg


...Hence his "join me" monologue to Luke in ESB. /shrug

Freedon Nadd
Yup. cool

FreshestSlice
No. Sidious clearly says he intends to be the last successor of Bane as early as TPM. As for using Canon to argue Legends and vice versa, I see little in either that would suggest power is even remotely important to killing one's master outside of DoE. It's also something we shouldn't be doing anyway.

Freedon Nadd
Yeah!

Zenwolf
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
No. Sidious clearly says he intends to be the last successor of Bane as early as TPM. As for using Canon to argue Legends and vice versa, I see little in either that would suggest power is even remotely important to killing one's master outside of DoE. It's also something we shouldn't be doing anyway.

Yet people continue to do so...for whatever reason.

Galan007
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
No. Sidious clearly says he intends to be the last successor of Bane as early as TPM. As for using Canon to argue Legends and vice versa, I see little in either that would suggest power is even remotely important to killing one's master outside of DoE. It's also something we shouldn't be doing anyway. Of course. There are clearly more ways to kill one's master than in direct combat or w/e -- Sidious himself employed the assassination tactic to kill Plagueis, for example. I was just saying that Vader knew he was inferior to Palpatine, so he would have never even attempted a direct confrontation -- regardless of how enraged he may have become.

...But this is all secondary to the other facts at hand:
a.) Palpatine trusted Vader implicitly. He likely never thought that Vader would betray him until he was literally hurling down the reactor shaft.

b.) *Per Legends, Palpatine never wanted a true successor in the first place.
*Canon, however, is more of a grey area regarding Palpatine's motives when he initially succeeded Palgueis... He may have wanted a successor initially, but by the final season of Rebels and the Tarkin novelization, it's clear that his primary goal was attaining the sort of universal godhood/supremacy that would make his rule permanent. No successors/replacements; only HIS rule. Forever.

FreshestSlice
That isn't what those comic panels say nor, given how things work in Canon, is it something we should imply. It has little to do with "inferiority" a lot more to do with other factors. It's possible to draw that conclusion, but pretending it's some definite thing said by Vader is being disingenuous. Palatine wanted Vader to become mighty. Maybe even mighty enough to kill him given time. He at least thought Vader had more to him. Nothing in Canon contradicts this being a possible future, your statements to the contrary.

Galan007
Given the context of the story, the scene implies precisely what I stated. You'd have to twist said context quite a bit to see it any other way, tbh... And it's not the first time in canon that Palpatine has made his superiority over Vader clear, either:
https://s7d1.turboimg.net/t1/38189272_Darth_Vader_001-007.jpg https://s7d1.turboimg.net/t1/38189281_Darth_Vader_001-008.jpg https://s7d1.turboimg.net/t1/38189289_Darth_Vader_001-009.jpg


Of course Palpatine wanted a powerful apprentice -- that has never been brought into question. However, very little(almost nothing) in canon suggests that he ever intended post-Mustafar Vader to kill/replace him, nor is there much(if any) evidence to suggest that Vader ever planned on usurping Palpatine alone... Which are my main points here.

But if you have evidence to the contrary, please do feel free to post it... I'd be more than welcome to go more in-depth here if need be.

The Ellimist
Originally posted by Galan007
Given the context of the story, the scene implies precisely what I stated. You'd have to twist said context quite a bit to see it any other way, tbh... And it's not the first time in canon that Palpatine has made his superiority over Vader clear, either:
https://s7d1.turboimg.net/t1/38189272_Darth_Vader_001-007.jpg https://s7d1.turboimg.net/t1/38189281_Darth_Vader_001-008.jpg https://s7d1.turboimg.net/t1/38189289_Darth_Vader_001-009.jpg


Of course Palpatine wanted a powerful apprentice -- that has never been brought into question. However, very little(almost nothing) in canon suggests that he ever intended post-Mustafar Vader to kill/replace him, nor is there much(if any) evidence to suggest that Vader ever planned on usurping Palpatine alone... Which are my main points here.

But if you have evidence to the contrary, please do feel free to post it... I'd be more than welcome to go more in-depth here if need be.

I'm confused: we presumably agree that Sidious wanted Vader to replace him pre-Mustafar. After Mustafar, you're telling me that Palpatine changed his mind and decided that, if he could snap his fingers and change the outcome of that duel so that Vader retained his full potential, he wouldn't do it? So he regrets Vader's defeat but then decides it was actually a good thing all along?

DarthAnt66
Palpatine thought he could control Anakin. Obviously he didn't plan to be killed - at least not in GL's world.

darthbane77
I think that maybe he expected Vader to surpass him at first, but after either realizing what being Emperor fully allowed him to do, or after realizing Vader would never be able to lead the Sith after his failure on Mustufar, decided "f*ck it" and no longer wanted to be supplanted.

Nephthys
Yeah, I think after Mustafar Palps was very disappointed in Vader and reconsidered what he was really capable of.

Freedon Nadd
He never wanted to be killed. Sith don't want to be replaced? Wtf is wrong with you?

FreshestSlice
Considering that in Canon, Vader's probably above Anakin, there's really nothing to suggest some huge hamper on potential. The author's already commented on Palpatine's motives either way.



Palpatine doesn't want tos top Mustafar because it would be counter intuitive to teaching Vader that his loses do not matter. Anything about "lost" potential is all but fanon at this point.

The Ellimist
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Considering that in Canon, Vader's probably above Anakin, there's really nothing to suggest some huge hamper on potential. The author's already commented on Palpatine's motives either way.



Palpatine doesn't want tos top Mustafar because it would be counter intuitive to teaching Vader that his loses do not matter. Anything about "lost" potential is all but fanon at this point.

So, peak suit Vader vs. Palpatine in canon; who wins?

Freedon Nadd
Rey.

Galan007
Originally posted by The Ellimist
I'm confused: we presumably agree that Sidious wanted Vader to replace him pre-Mustafar. After Mustafar, you're telling me that Palpatine changed his mind and decided that, if he could snap his fingers and change the outcome of that duel so that Vader retained his full potential, he wouldn't do it? So he regrets Vader's defeat but then decides it was actually a good thing all along? I think Palpatine intended Anakin to succeed him at first, ergo: "Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us!"

But after his defeat on Mustafar, Palpatine realized that Vader would never be able to reach his full potential, so he began seeking-out other means to permanently retain power himself. *Enter his goal of remaking the universe in his own image, and lusting after TWBW*

...In canon, at least. In Legends there is evidence to suggest that Palpatine never wanted a successor, period.

Galan007
Thought this might be worth mentioning here:
https://i.imgur.com/pDHKYfT.jpg
-The Tenebrous Way

Confirmation that Palpatine was indeed "the shadow" that Tenebrous prophesied:
https://i.imgur.com/qjjo6yS.jpg

Freedon Nadd
Any doubt that it wasn't?

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.