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Kylo Ren as of TLJ-
https://s17.postimg.org/el3wukxlb/Untitled2.jpg

vs.

The 2 Magnaguards Anakin and Kenobi fought on GG's flagship during ROTS-
https://s17.postimg.org/qa7wiagrj/Untitled.jpg


-sabers only for Kylo.

Kylo goes crying home, covered in electrical burns, to daddy Snoke.

Kylo.

Probably Kylo, because I'm trying to give him the benefit of the doubt. That said, I think it would be a very hard-earned win for him based on what we've seen up to this point(assuming he won at all.)

Those Magnaguards were at least good enough to give RotS Anakin and Kenobi pause, after all, and Kylo's saber prowess hasn't exactly been what I would call 'impressive' thus far. /shrug

The ST appears to be following the trend of "PT duelists >>>> all", with Pablo or someone apparently saying that Kylo is an unpolished duelist or whatever.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
The ST appears to be following the trend of "PT duelists >>>> all", with Pablo or someone apparently saying that Kylo is an unpolished duelist or whatever.

Well it would make sense given the setting and what not.

Anyway, can't really see Kylo taking this, especially if he's fighting two.

Kylo, he was slaughtering praetorian guards who should logically be superior to those magnaguards.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Kylo, he was slaughtering praetorian guards who should logically be superior to those magnaguards.

Why would they necessarily be superior?

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Kylo, he was slaughtering praetorian guards So was Rey...

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Why would they necessarily be superior?

Snoke had the funds to built 60 km ships, I think that if Magnaguards were truly superior to the PT guards he could've used them to protect him?

Originally posted by Galan007
So was Rey...

Yeah indeed, however I don't really see how it affects this discussion?

^ Because Rey had virtually no formal training with a lightsaber, and still bested the Praetorian Guards as well. IOW, Kylo besting them doesn't really stand out to me as some uber display of saber prowess that automatically puts him above the Magnaguards... As mentioned, these two Magnaguards gave RotS Anakin and Kenobi pause -- and I'm sure we can agree that each of them were vastly better swordsmen than young Benjamin.

Again, I'd really like to think Kylo can beat a couple Magnaguards, but it's quite difficult for me to think of a showing that is indicative of such... /shrug

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Snoke had the funds to built 60 km ships, I think that if Magnaguards were truly superior to the PT guards he could've used them to protect him?

I mean the CIS had considerable funds as well, and there's a limit to how powerful I think non-Force sensitives could be relative to robotic magnaguards programmed with fighting instructions who can give Obi Wan/Anakin trouble.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Snoke had the funds to built 60 km ships, I think that if Magnaguards were truly superior to the PT guards he could've used them to protect him?

A very creative and nuanced answer. I'm truly impressed DD.

So here's my nuanced response to an argument premised on such subtleties. Assuming Snoke doesn't have limitless resources at his disposal, which areas do you think he can save money to fund these 60km ships? Personal security might be one. Did you ever consider that frugality might be how the rich stay that way...? Par example Warren Buffett, chairman and CEO of Berkshire Hathaway, still lives in the same home he bought for $31,500 in 1958 and Ingvar Kamprad, founder of IKEA, reportedly flies economy and often rides the bus. Having crap fighters as your personal bodyguards could easily be a nice way to characterise Snoke's arrogance.

I mean Guri was a pretty kick-ass personal body-guard/assassin/sex-toy who could only be defeated by a jedi-knight in hand-to-hand combat, gave Luke a run for his money, but Snoke doesn't have one of her despite presumably being rich as Xizor.

Originally posted by Galan007
^ Because Rey had virtually no formal training with a lightsaber, and still bested the Praetorian Guards as well. IOW, Kylo besting them doesn't really stand out to me as some uber display of saber prowess that automatically puts him above the Magnaguards... As mentioned, these two Magnaguards gave RotS Anakin and Kenobi pause -- and I'm sure we can agree that each of them were vastly better swordsmen than young Benjamin.

Again, I'd really like to think Kylo can beat a couple Magnaguards, but it's quite difficult for me to think of a showing that is indicative of such... /shrug

Depends how you really look at it, the Last Jedi novelization and the Force Awakens Visual Guide (partially) answers those complains. On Jakku, Rey trained daily to hone her skills with her quarterstaff to the point that she is said to have 'perfected' stabbing, swinging, ... motions. The TFA visual guide confirms that these skills are excellent for the transition to "shorter melee weapons" (AKA a lightsaber). On the other hand, she's probably on of the most natural Force wielders out there and the OT (and now the ST) have placed the emphasis on Force power (and its mastery) rather than duelling techniques. If you look at Luke, he didn't get any real lightsaber training besides the basic deflections lesson from Obi-Wan yet he becomes someone who can challenge Darth Vader in a relative short period. So no, I think that Rey killing the same number of guards isn't against the original argument I made for Kylo.

Going back to the RotS duel I think it's also important to make a distinction between an Obi-Wan and Anakin that are going full throttle on an opponent and them fighting some random magnaguards. Sure, they had some difficulty defeating them but it never seemed they were in an extremely dangerous situation that would push them to their limits.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I mean the CIS had considerable funds as well, and there's a limit to how powerful I think non-Force sensitives could be relative to robotic magnaguards programmed with fighting instructions who can give Obi Wan/Anakin trouble.

Sure agreed, on the other hand those PT guards are the best warriors the First Order - an organisation that is centred around creating super soldiers as it's standard personel - has as they need to represent Snoke's fighting protection considering his deminished physical state (TLJ Visual Guide). I think that if those magnaguards, 50 year old technology by the time of TFA, are truly superior than those PT guards than Snoke would buy a truckload of those and let them be trained. Add to that the lightsaber resistent armor they wear and defeating them becomes a lot more difficult.

Originally posted by JMANGO
A very creative and nuanced answer. I'm truly impressed DD.

So here's my nuanced response to an argument premised on such subtleties. Assuming Snoke doesn't have limitless resources at his disposal, which areas do you think he can save money to fund these 60km ships? Personal security might be one. Did you ever consider that frugality might be how the rich stay that way...? Par example Warren Buffett, chairman and CEO of Berkshire Hathaway, still lives in the same home he bought for $31,500 in 1958 and Ingvar Kamprad, founder of IKEA, reportedly flies economy and often rides the bus. Having crap fighters as your personal bodyguards could easily be a nice way to characterise Snoke's arrogance.

Sure, good point there although I don't think a couple bodyguards are going to compensate for the massive cost of his ships Besides we know that they spent an extreme amount of resources on training their average footsoldier so I don't think they will hold back on their Supreme Leaders personal guards.

Originally posted by Kurk
I mean Guri was a pretty kick-ass personal body-guard/assassin/sex-toy who could only be defeated by a jedi-knight in hand-to-hand combat, gave Luke a run for his money, but Snoke doesn't have one of her despite presumably being rich as Xizor.

That's in Legends, we have no idea how far that kind of technology advanced in the Canon timeline.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
. If you look at Luke, he didn't get any real lightsaber training besides the basic deflections lesson from Obi-Wan yet he becomes someone who can challenge Darth Vader in a relative short period. So no, I think that Rey killing the same number of guards isn't against the original argument I made for Kylo.


Difference here, Luke didn't just have a single day to improve his saber skill before he fought Vader and he did have training from both Obi-Wan and Yoda to help him with The Force too.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Difference here, Luke didn't just have a single day to improve his saber skill before he fought Vader and he did have training from both Obi-Wan and Yoda to help him with The Force too.

The period when Rey is one the planet with Luke is longer than a day and she already had years of experience using her quarterstaff so she got that on Luke (who was completely inexperienced in ANH). It's also said in TLJ novelization that when she and Kylo formed their bond (during the interrogation scene) she could look inside his head and learned some of his powers.

Are we talking about Luke's teachings? Yeah, sure it's basic indeed. And well it's actually something that hasn't happened before in the SW universe so I don't see why it would be 'convenient'. She's the main character of the story because she can do these things, not the other way around.

Kylo. If we accept at face value all Kylo needs to become Vader level is turning fully to the Dark side, he is probably at lowest Id say a Kit Fisto level guy.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Depends how you really look at it, the Last Jedi novelization and the Force Awakens Visual Guide (partially) answers those complains. On Jakku, Rey trained daily to hone her skills with her quarterstaff to the point that she is said to have 'perfected' stabbing, swinging, ... motions. The TFA visual guide confirms that these skills are excellent for the transition to "shorter melee weapons" (AKA a lightsaber). On the other hand, she's probably on of the most natural Force wielders out there and the OT (and now the ST) have placed the emphasis on Force power (and its mastery) rather than duelling techniques. If you look at Luke, he didn't get any real lightsaber training besides the basic deflections lesson from Obi-Wan yet he becomes someone who can challenge Darth Vader in a relative short period. So no, I think that Rey killing the same number of guards isn't against the original argument I made for Kylo. Rey's 'mastery' of the staff only made it 'easier' for her to be comfortable handling shorter-handled weapons, like a lightsaber. The fact still remains that she had virtually NO formal training with a lightsaber, yet still managed to make short work of a few Praetorian Guards... I understand she is a natural prodigy with the force(the 'yin' to Ben's 'yang' as it were), but she was still an absolute n00b with the weapon, yet proceeded to 'fodderize' the PGs in rapid succession by seemingly out-fighting them.

Moreover, as we learned when Kanan went over the basics of lightsaber usage and combat with Sabine: just because you have a preexisting proficiency with weapons(in Sabine's case she was proficient with a very large variety of weapons), doesn't mean you can just pick up a lightsaber and automatically know how to use it effectively/efficiently in battle. That takes training with a lightsaber specifically, no matter who you are.

That said, I *want* to believe Ben can handle these particular Magnaguards... But beating a few PGs just isn't indicative of such, imo.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Going back to the RotS duel I think it's also important to make a distinction between an Obi-Wan and Anakin that are going full throttle on an opponent and them fighting some random magnaguards. Sure, they had some difficulty defeating them but it never seemed they were in an extremely dangerous situation that would push them to their limits. Seems to me like you're trying to downplay the Magnaguards, whilst simultaneously acting like the Praetorian Guards are these unbelievably uber warriors. Curious why the double-standard?

Magnaguards destroy Kylo.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Sure agreed, on the other hand those PT guards are the best warriors the First Order - an organisation that is centred around creating super soldiers as it's standard personel - has as they need to represent Snoke's fighting protection considering his deminished physical state (TLJ Visual Guide). I think that if those magnaguards, 50 year old technology by the time of TFA, are truly superior than those PT guards than Snoke would buy a truckload of those and let them be trained. Add to that the lightsaber resistent armor they wear and defeating them becomes a lot more difficult.

I mean we don't really know the context behind the creation, training, etc. of those magnaguards. What we know more clearly is that they gave two of the best warriors of the PT some sort of challenge while Kylo and Rey took on a far larger quantity of PG's, and several OOU sources say that PT duelists >>> all in the new Canon. If you choose not to accept those OOU sources (which I can sympathize with) then it becomes more of a question, though I still think all the evidence points to Anakin >>>> Kylo.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
several OOU sources say that PT duelists >>> all in the new Canon

Quotes, please.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Snoke had the funds to built 60 km ships, I think that if Magnaguards were truly superior to the PT guards he could've used them to protect him? We also knew quite a few CIS droids were superior to Clones and as such random Stormtroopers too, yet he had none. The lack of appearance does not show an inferiority. Otherwise we can pretend Destroyer Droids are less than one Stormtrooper.

Originally posted by Galan007
Rey's 'mastery' of the staff only made it 'easier' for her to be comfortable handling shorter-handled weapons, like a lightsaber. The fact still remains that she had virtually NO formal training with a lightsaber, yet still managed to make short work of a few Praetorian Guards... I understand she is a natural prodigy with the force(the 'yin' to Ben's 'yang' as it were), but she was still an absolute n00b with the weapon, yet proceeded to 'fodderize' the PGs in rapid succession by seemingly out-fighting them.

Moreover, as we learned when Kanan went over the basics of lightsaber usage and combat with Sabine: just because you have a preexisting proficiency with weapons(in Sabine's case she was proficient with a very large variety of weapons), doesn't mean you can just pick up a lightsaber and automatically know how to use it effectively/efficiently in battle. That takes training with a lightsaber specifically, no matter who you are.

She had indeed no formal training, just like Luke? He was never trained in lightsaber combat by Obi-Wan or Yoda (except the basic introduction on the Falcon) but most learned most of it through self practice and fighting against opponents. It has been established that those extremely powerful with the Force just have a natural affinity for lightsaber combat and that the connection you have with the saber is really important (Sabine's training under Kanan) and we both know how it called for her in TFA. She obviously lacks the refinement most PT duelists had or even Kylo but the reason she defeats those PT is her incredible connection to the Force and her experience fighting on Jakku. I don't really see how it matters that because she received no formal training suddenly the PT guards aren't skilled? There are different ways of achieving skill and battle prowess.

Regarding Sabine, well she's a non-force sensitive trying to use a lightsaber. Jedi - and force sensitives in general - have the Force which helps (enhanced reflexes, ...). Rey also struggled in the beginning against Kylo in TFA, it was only after she led the Force guide her that she actually became proficient. The Last Jedi novelization also points this out during her duel with the PT guards, that she's struggling and is actually losing at one point before she gives herself over to the Force and let it guides her.



I'm not downplaying the magnaguards, they're proficient warriors but there's a difference in urgency when fighting a magnaguard (something Obi-Wan and Anakin have experience enough in) and confronting someone like Dooku, that's all I want to say. We shouldn't expect them to have the same motivation and drive during all their duels. The reason I find PT guards superior is because Magnaguards are 50 years old by the time of the ST and even crime lords like Grakkus have them in large numbers. I don't see why Snoke, with his reach and knowledge, wouldn't utilize them if they are so superior?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I mean we don't really know the context behind the creation, training, etc. of those magnaguards. What we know more clearly is that they gave two of the best warriors of the PT some sort of challenge while Kylo and Rey took on a far larger quantity of PG's, and several OOU sources say that PT duelists >>> all in the new Canon. If you choose not to accept those OOU sources (which I can sympathize with) then it becomes more of a question, though I still think all the evidence points to Anakin >>>> Kylo.

I think it's an over simplification to say that all PT duelists are >>>. In general are they more refined but that didn't stop Luke from taking on Vader or Kanan/Ezra from defeating the Inquisitors (who were all PT Jedi). Besides, those PT guards definitely gave Kylo and Rey quite a challenge, far more than the magnaguards did to Obi-Wan and Anakin.

I can agree that Anakin and Obi-Wan are superior duelists to Kylo and Rey (although I think that Kylo's the better fighter of the two) but I wouldn't say the margin is huge. Noticeable sure but he was still trained by Luke.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
We also knew quite a few CIS droids were superior to Clones and as such random Stormtroopers too, yet he had none. The lack of appearance does not show an inferiority. Otherwise we can pretend Destroyer Droids are less than one Stormtrooper.

Droids in general also have other drawbacks compared to actual sentient beings. Besides First Order warriors measure up different compared to clones or Imperial stormtroopers.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Droids in general also have other drawbacks compared to actual sentient beings. Besides First Order warriors measure up different compared to clones or Imperial stormtroopers. There's your answer then of why he didn't use Magnaguards. You might as well be going around asking why every battle didn't end with a Star Destroyer orbital striking everything planetside.
Just because it didn't happen, doesn't mean it can't be done. And just because Snoke didn't use Magnaguards, doesn't mean they're less effective. Nobody used a lightsaber either in Snoke's playhouse, yet he had the money to build everyone 3. I guess Snoke just knew lightsabers weren't up to snuff.

Also First Order guards don't have years of hype and TV shows showing how good they could or should be. I can guarantee an equal number of Destroyer Droids would do better than an equal number of First Order Stormtroopers though. But then it doesn't make sense why Snoke wouldn't include them in the army? Therefore they must be inferior!


Use their actual showings to make a point, not their lack of appearances.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
She had indeed no formal training, just like Luke? He was never trained in lightsaber combat by Obi-Wan or Yoda (except the basic introduction on the Falcon) but most learned most of it through self practice and fighting against opponents. It has been established that those extremely powerful with the Force just have a natural affinity for lightsaber combat and that the connection you have with the saber is really important (Sabine's training under Kanan) and we both know how it called for her in TFA. She obviously lacks the refinement most PT duelists had or even Kylo but the reason she defeats those PT is her incredible connection to the Force and her experience fighting on Jakku. I don't really see how it matters that because she received no formal training suddenly the PT guards aren't skilled? There are different ways of achieving skill and battle prowess. Except Luke at least had some formal training via Obi-Wan and Yoda. Rey's had virtually no training at all(especially with a lightsaber specifically.) Moreover, Luke had a few years to hone his abilities -- Rey literally had a few days. She was a complete and utter n00b with a lightsaber, yet she still managed to out-fight multiple PGs about as well as Kylo did.

So again, beating the PGs certainly isn't a feat that seems indicative of beating these particular Magnaguards, imo. srug

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Regarding Sabine, well she's a non-force sensitive trying to use a lightsaber. Jedi - and force sensitives in general - have the Force which helps (enhanced reflexes, ...) The moral of the story is that no one can just pick up a lightsaber for the first time and be instantly adept with its usage, without some sort of formalized training... Force-sensitive or not.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
I'm not downplaying the magnaguards, they're proficient warriors but there's a difference in urgency when fighting a magnaguard (something Obi-Wan and Anakin have experience enough in) and confronting someone like Dooku, that's all I want to say. Few things...
a.) They wanted to capture Grievous, as he was the last of the Separatists key leadership -- apprehending(or killing) him then and there would have ended the Clone War then and there.
b.) They were trying to protect the Supreme Chancellor -- THE quintessential figurehead of the entire Republic.

So given such tremendously high stakes, I would imagine there was indeed a strong sense of urgency on Kenobi and Anakin's part.

...But that's neither here nor there. I would argue that RotS Kenobi or Anakin would stomp the bejesus out of Kylo in a duel, even if they went into it with a completely calm/casual/non-urgent demeanor. /shrug

Kylo Ren is dueling though. It'd be like trying to burn the sun with a candle. Look at all the skill he showed, virtually unheard of

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I mean the CIS had considerable funds as well, and there's a limit to how powerful I think non-Force sensitives could be relative to robotic magnaguards programmed with fighting instructions who can give Obi Wan/Anakin trouble.
weren't the guards force sensitive in legends?

Why are we assuming they're non force sensitive here?

Originally posted by Galan007
So was Rey...
For someone who has luke+ potential, I think natural talent goes a long way.

Not to mention that if the guards were really non force sensitives, there's no way they wouldn't be getting insta blitzed by kylo.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
I think it's an over simplification to say that all PT duelists are >>>. In general are they more refined but that didn't stop Luke from taking on Vader or Kanan/Ezra from defeating the Inquisitors (who were all PT Jedi).

Don't forget amateurish duelists like Ventress and Savage from challenging masters like Dooku, Anakin, Obi-Wan and Mace.

When it comes to canon, non-force sensitives can go toe to toe with Jedi and barely trained duelists can stand up to prodigies with decades of training.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
For someone who has luke+ potential, I think natural talent goes a long way. Rey has amazing raw potential(as does Ben.) I certainly never meant to imply otherwise.

However, tremendous latent potential doesn't change the fact that she still had next-to-no training with a lightsaber -- heck, she hadn't even held one until a few days prior to fighting the PGs. Despite this, Rey still managed to out-fight the Guards right alongside Kylo... Again, I only mention this because it makes Kylo beating a few PGs substantially less impressive, and on its own, is certainly not indicative of him being able to defeat these Magnaguards. Imo.

Put any two PGs against RotS Anakin and Kenobi, for example, and I don't see them giving the duo anywhere near the pause the Magnaguards did. /shrug

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Not to mention that if the guards were really non force sensitives, there's no way they wouldn't be getting insta blitzed by kylo. Has this actually been confirmed in any canon source? I only ask because I looked in the Visual Dictionary and couldn't find anything to that effect? Perhaps the novel clarifies one way or the other(I'll be reading it this week)..?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Don't forget amateurish duelists like Ventress and Savage from challenging masters like Dooku, Anakin, Obi-Wan and Mace.

When it comes to canon, non-force sensitives can go toe to toe with Jedi and barely trained duelists can stand up to prodigies with decades of training. Except Rey wouldn't even qualify as a 'barely trained' duelist. She literally has NO formal training with a lightsaber at all.

Ventress and Savage, on the other hand, each had training from one of the best duelists in the entire mythos. Additionally, Ventress had received formal Jedi training years before she even came to Dooku -- I certainly wouldn't call her an 'amateur' duelist, but that's just me. /shrug

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
weren't the guards force sensitive in legends?

Why are we assuming they're non force sensitive here?

The Praetorian Guards were never in Legends.

They are Non-Force Sensitive until noted otherwise. The Guide doesn't mention anything, so the book is probably the last bit were gonna get to see what goes on about them.

So in the end, they could just be peak human. Guess we'll see in the TLJ if that changes.

Originally posted by Galan007
Except Rey wouldn't even qualify as a 'barely trained' duelist. She literally has NO formal training with a lightsaber at all.

Ventress and Savage, on the other hand, each had training from one of the best duelists in the entire mythos. Additionally, Ventress had received formal Jedi training years before she even came to Dooku -- I certainly wouldn't call her an 'amateur' duelist, but that's just me. /shrug

DarthDuelist9 already pointed out that she had a few leg ups in that department, far moreso than Luke did. He had absolute bupkis. If you want to complain about anything, complain about him. At least Rey had a good decade+ of melee weapon training and experience.

They had minimal training, Savage in particular. Luminara outright called Ventress' form sloppy and amateurish. Her technique isn't close to a fully trained master like Obi-Wans, but she competes with him through general aptitude and her abilities as a warrior. In canon, formal training isn't that important.

Originally posted by Nephthys
DarthDuelist9 already pointed out that she had a few leg ups in that department, far moreso than Luke did. He had absolute bupkis. If you want to complain about anything, complain about him. At least Rey had a good decade+ of melee weapon training and experience. But Luke still received *some* formal training with a lightsaber specifically -- he also had longer to refine the few skills he learned. Rey didn't.

Granted, Rey was well-adept with her staff, so she was more comfortable transitioning to a shorter-handled weapon(which is likely why she didn't inadvertently lop off an arm or somesuch)... But that's where the parallels between these two pieces of weaponry stops entirely.

Do you think that someone who is proficient at using a Bo Staff could pick up a Katana for the first time and demonstrate a remotely similar degree of proficiency, without any sort of formal training? Of course not.

Uber latent potential only goes so far... Especially when Rey had only been using a lightsaber for a matter of days before fighting the PGs. /shrug

Originally posted by Nephthys
They had minimal training, Savage in particular. Luminara outright called Ventress' form sloppy and amateurish. Her technique isn't close to a fully trained master like Obi-Wans, but she competes with him through general aptitude and her abilities as a warrior. In canon, formal training isn't that important. Again, they still had *some* formal training from one of the single best duelists in the entire mythos. Rey didn't.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
The Praetorian Guards were never in Legends.

They are Non-Force Sensitive until noted otherwise. The Guide doesn't mention anything, so the book is probably the last bit were gonna get to see what goes on about them.

So in the end, they could just be peak human. Guess we'll see in the TLJ if that changes.
I thought they were a new version of the imperial guards sids employed?

Well she did have melee training via all the practice she had with that staff. And the main point regarding her potential was her reflexes. Irrelevant of whether she's technically skilled or not, surely she should have the natural reflexes to blitz non force sensitives?

Also, I recall that tecnical skill was largely tied to power as the force was what jedi used to guide their movements. Rey is certainly powerful atthis point(see the boulder feat).

As for the magna guards performance vs Anakin, frankly, i'd pint hat down to the limitations of live action. Let's be real here, magna guards aren't taking on Anakin and Kenobi.

If we take their performance at face value, then yeah, they should win. But frankly, I'd put that along with Hondo stalemating Anakin and Yoda struggling with a few rocks. If Lucas wasn't looking for extra action in his movie, Anakin and Kenobi blitz.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
I thought they were a new version of the imperial guards sids employed?



Yeah, but that doesn't mean they are Force Sensitive.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Yeah, but that doesn't mean they are Force Sensitive.
I'd figure you would replace force sensitives with force sesitives

It would explain how they didn't get rofl stomped by a force sensitive at least.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
I'd figure you would replace force sensitives with force sesitives

It would explain how they didn't get rofl stomped by a force sensitive at least.

The RG in the New Canon haven't been noted as Force Sensitive.

There could be other explanations, cybernetic augmentation would be another.

Hmm interesting:

Seems Snoke gave Rey an artificial power boost. Curious he would do such a thing if he wants Kylo to kill her...

Also apparently, Rey didn't do as well as Kylo:

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Hmm interesting:

Seems Snoke gave Rey an artificial power boost. Curious he would do such a thing if he wants Kylo to kill her...

How great that it comes to her, before all that fighting started.

Hm, hm....but anything else?

what i don't get, is why snoke would empower her if he wanted her dead...

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
what i don't get, is why snoke would empower her if he wanted her dead...

Unless Snoke was lying and wanted her to replace Kylo. Although it wouldn't be the first thing that wouldn't make sense in TLJ if he didn't.

Originally posted by Galan007
But Luke still received *some* formal training with a lightsaber specifically -- he also had longer to refine the few skills he learned. Rey didn't.

Granted, Rey was well-adept with her staff, so she was more comfortable transitioning to a shorter-handled weapon(which is likely why she didn't inadvertently lop off an arm or somesuch)... But that's where the parallels between these two pieces of weaponry stops entirely.

Do you think that someone who is proficient at using a Bo Staff could pick up a Katana for the first time and demonstrate a remotely similar degree of proficiency, without any sort of formal training? Of course not.

Uber latent potential only goes so far... Especially when Rey had only been using a lightsaber for a matter of days before fighting the PGs. /shrug

Two minutes against a targeting drone doesn't really count. He didn't learn any movements or techniques, just how to use the Force to guide his movements. Which Rey figured out at the end of TFA. Combined with her decade of staff-fighting shes far more qualified than the dude going toe to toe with Darth Vader.

As shown above, she was also able to access some of Kylo's knowledge through their force bond. Again, she was far better equipped for a duel than Luke. Who btw was getting his ass kicked by Vader and had to learn on the fly just like Rey did. Both of them noticeably improve during and after only one duel.

If they had the Force, then yes.

No, in canon a strong connection to the Force allows you to intuitively fight effectively by letting it flow through you and guide your actions. That's just how it is.

Originally posted by Galan007
Again, they still had *some* formal training from one of the single best duelists in the entire mythos. Rey didn't.

Which isn't my point. In canon a person having vastly more and better training and lightsaber technique doesn't actually give them much of an advantage. If I were to justify it I'd say that while technique can let you practise optimal avenues of attack and know the best angles to block from and how best to string moves together etc, the Force can also let you know those things. As long as you can keep up in the physical department, even an amateur can block a swing from a master no matter how refined the movement. A martial artist can still lose to a brawler in real life if the latter is just a naturally good fighter and has excellent physicals.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
There's your answer then of why he didn't use Magnaguards. You might as well be going around asking why every battle didn't end with a Star Destroyer orbital striking everything planetside.

Not really, my comment referred to your average footsoldier, not your elite bodyguards that need to protect you and your comparisons don't really make sense. The reason why - to follow your line of thinking - a Star Destroyer doesn't just bombard every planet and such is that it isn't always necessary to do so and the extra damage done to the planet compared to an invasion could cost the Empire resources.



Again, your comparison is completely off-topic. The fact that your footsoldier or even PT guard didn't use an actual lightsaber can have many explanantions, we know for example that they are incredibly hard to handle for non-Force sensitives and they're not necessarely the better weapon compared to let's say a staff (or any of the weapons the PT guards used).



Droidekas naturally have their downsides obviously, they might outperform the First Order soldiers in a pure shootout but they lack the intelligence of an organic being so they'll perform inferior in a large number of situations that require fast thinking, improvisation and flexibility.

Your entire argument consists of making comparisons that have nothing to do with this argument, there are a large number of reasons the Empire didn't bombard every planet that rebelled or equiped their footsoldiers with extremely hard to use lightsabers. On the other hand there's no reason for Snoke not to use Magnaguards as his personal protection because the single goal these guards have is to well, protect Snoke.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Two minutes against a targeting drone doesn't really count. He didn't learn any movements or techniques, just how to use the Force to guide his movements. Which Rey figured out at the end of TFA. Combined with her decade of staff-fighting shes far more qualified than the dude going toe to toe with Darth Vader. Luke also studied Kenobi's Journal extensively, and had actually *used* his lightsaber in various battles/conflicts, for a few years before he confronted Vader in ESB. #MarvelCanon

So no. Rey, who had only picked up a lightsaber for the first time a matter of days before fighting the PGs, certainly was not "more qualified" than ESB(and especially RotJ) Luke with the weapon's usage.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Combined with her decade of staff-fighting You're acting like this counts for a LOT more than it actually does, tbh.

Originally posted by Nephthys
As shown above, she was also able to access some of Kylo's knowledge through their force bond. The above quote hardly implies that Rey gained Kylo's prowess/skills with a lightsaber. However, I am reading TLJ novelization as we speak, so perhaps I will stumble upon something a bit more pertinent to this discussion.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, in canon a strong connection to the Force allows you to intuitively fight effectively by letting it flow through you and guide your actions. That's just how it is. To a point, yes. But you seem to think that a strong connection to the force allows one to pick up a lightsaber for the first time, and instantly be proficient with its usage without any training whatsoever... Not the case at all.

It takes training(and in most cases, yearS of it) for even the strongest Jedi/Sith to become proficient in a duel.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Which isn't my point. In canon a person having vastly more and better training and lightsaber technique doesn't actually give them much of an advantage. Eh, wut..? Dooku, for example, had "vastly more and better training and lightsaber technique" than most, and that is exactly *why* he was so much more skilled/powerful than most.

It sounds like you're trying to imply that formalized training doesn't count for much in a battle. Suffice to say, I think such a sentiment is.... inaccurate, to say the least. /shrug

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Not really, my comment referred to your average footsoldier, not your elite bodyguards that need to protect you and your comparisons don't really make sense. The reason why - to follow your line of thinking - a Star Destroyer doesn't just bombard every planet and such is that it isn't always necessary to do so and the extra damage done to the planet compared to an invasion could cost the Empire resources.



Again, your comparison is completely off-topic. The fact that your footsoldier or even PT guard didn't use an actual lightsaber can have many explanantions, we know for example that they are incredibly hard to handle for non-Force sensitives and they're not necessarely the better weapon compared to let's say a staff (or any of the weapons the PT guards used).



Droidekas naturally have their downsides obviously, they might outperform the First Order soldiers in a pure shootout but they lack the intelligence of an organic being so they'll perform inferior in a large number of situations that require fast thinking, improvisation and flexibility.

Your entire argument consists of making comparisons that have nothing to do with this argument, there are a large number of reasons the Empire didn't bombard every planet that rebelled or equiped their footsoldiers with extremely hard to use lightsabers. On the other hand there's no reason for Snoke not to use Magnaguards as his personal protection because the single goal these guards have is to well, protect Snoke.

Your argument hinges on a big old non sequitur though. I don't even need to address it because it doesn't properly follow, which I will explain, but first, I'm using other stupid examples to show you that it doesn't follow what your logic is, IE, just because it wasn't used, doesn't mean it's worse or ineffective. And yet you couldn't stick by your own train of thought in one example. Yes there's reasons, both in universe and out. First off, Snoke is a big copycat of Sidious with those guards, both the color and them being bodyguards. That would be the biggest. Out of universe is that they didn't want PT Guards in there. They don't need a reason in actuality.
Your conclusion is about as valid as saying they're better than Dark Jedi or concluding that Bane's orbalisks are useless because not every Sith was wearing them.

There are reasons for everything, and a lot of the time that reason is just to create something new.

"Your argument has nothing to do with mine"
So what does your argument have to do with actual superiority? I said make your case based on showings, not on a lack of appearances. If your argument is boiled down to "they must be better because they weren't used... 50 years later" then don't act like you're making some amazing point. Yes he could have bought some, just like he could have bought a small army of Destroyer Droids, but the key point is that he didn't, and that proves absolutely nothing. He'd rather have hand selected guards with lightsaber resistant armor than droids no one thought of when they created the Guards.


As for the rest:

"Could cost the Empire resources"

Wasn't your original point that the First Order could build 60k ships so they could buy after market priced Droids, indicating money wasn't an issue? I realize you shifted this to the Empire as opposed to the First Order, but the Empire controlled the whole galaxy and as such is assumed to have way more money.

Yes the extra ordinance could cost money, but not moreso than repeated attacks when the Rebels get away, or the destroyed ships that happen everytime they prolong the attack.

Look at all the resources they wasted on going down to the planet in the last fight in TLJ, when Kylo could have simply killed everyone from orbit.

"There's reasons why he did that though!"

(Not good ones though)
Exactly. And there's reasons why Snoke used human guards over Droids. You just tried to say normal Stormtroopers would have an advantage over Droidekas because of their human factor. Why does that same logic not apply in the case of Magnaguards?




Then Snoke should have trained them in the force and thus they should have used a lightsaber. Therefore we can conclude that the force would only weaken them and they're better with those weapons than they would be with lightsabers backed by the force.

See, there's your logic in a nutshell. You're acting like Snoke perfected the art of picking guards and nothing else could be better. Yet, you unknowingly just admitted they weren't force users and COULD have been better. They should have been dark jedi with a lightsaber, but they weren't. There's no reason why they weren't either. That doesn't mean Dark Jedi are worse than those guards, or being Dark Jedi wouldn't have improved them, it just means they weren't Dark Jedi. Because that's how things work in stories and movies. Not everything fits perfectly into your own headcanon.





First Order Troopers are pretty junk, so I don't really see a point in bringing up flexibility, adapting, or making new plans.
But there's no reason why they couldn't roll out Destroyers on the front lines of every battle and have the highly adaptive First Order Troops in the back. Therefore an all human group is better than a 99 percent human group with nigh invulnerable minigun droids in the frontlines protecting them.





Well, I'll list them again with a little more
Magnaguards would have jumped up in price, would have been hard to get enough, and would have required additional work for upkeep and commands.
Snoke was copycatting Sidious.
No one cared enough about them from the PT to include them.
It wanted to make "new" characters instead of borrowing old characters
Droids were largely looked down upon, and it looks more imposing to have armored humans than filthy droids.
Humans are more adaptable, Snoke could read minds to prevent Droid hacking, and he doesn't have to make special commands for them.
They had lightsaber resistant armor. They would have had to redo sections of the droids to include this type of tech.
He was very egotistical and needed something as a last resort or as something he doesn't feel like dealing with.
Maybe he talked to them, who knows?
And some other dumb reasons you can make up.

If you're going to shift it to Snoke needed absolute protection, then why not just have more guards then? Because he thought 8 was enough? So if he thought 8 was enough for his absolute protection then maybe he didn't think he needed Magnaguards either? He felt perfectly safe, that doesn't mean he couldn't have been MORE safe, just that he didn't think he needed it.


I really shouldn't have had to say any of this. Use the actual showings instead of lack of appearances

To reiterate: I agree that Rey's prowess with the quarterstaff gave her a decent level of comfortability with a lightsaber, because the weapons shared some of the same basic principals(as we already discussed.)

I am just saying that proficiency with the quarterstaff doesn't automatically cross-over to an equal degree of proficiency with a lightsaber.



{edit}
Sorry, bran. Not trying to ninja you.

like I give a ****

I don't think we're even talking about the same thing. I'm still stuck on the "Snoke didn't use them, they must be worse" rhetoric.

Magnaguards.

So apparently TLJ novelization has it that Kylo legitimately had great respect/fear for Snoke's guards and knew he was no match for them collectively.

Well at least they are keeping the numbers thing consistent against Force Users in the New Canon.

Kylo wins.