Perfect UI Goku from DB Super vs SSJ4 Goku from GT

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Prof. T.C McAbe
Based off powerlevels, who wins?

Inedian
Ah no contest... MUI Goku with unbelievable ease.

AuraAngel

Galan007
MUI wins.

Dark-Kenshin
SSG Goku one-shots.

Prof. T.C McAbe
Ok some extremes. I wouldn't go that far and say one stomps the other, rather i would have though it would be a close fight. What do you think their powerlevel is?

StiltmanFTW

Prof. T.C McAbe
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
@Prof



Also, what SS4 Goku it is? What saga? Surpassed Limits allowed?

One could imagine EoGT SS4 Goku would handle MUI Goku with ease...
I asked for power levels in this thread. I hoped for great claculations.

SSJ4 Goku who defeated Shenron.

StiltmanFTW
And you'd get them, normally. But like Aura said - power levels don't seem to matter much in Super... they're f*cking all over the place, making sense out of them just gives you a giant headache. God ki, non-god Ki, berserker rages, ranging the shit out of park = giant boost, Kamesennin somehow getting a gargantuan upgrade, etc.

Surpassed Limits you want, then. Equal to SS4 Vegeta. I'd take SS4, but I'm biased and favour GT to Super.

Inedian
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
And you'd get them, normally. But like Aura said - power levels don't seem to matter much in Super... they're f*cking all over the place, making sense out of them just gives you a giant headache. God ki, non-god Ki, berserker rages, ranging the shit out of park = giant boost, Kamesennin somehow getting a gargantuan upgrade, etc.J4

Surpassed Limits you want, then. Equal to SS4 Vegeta. I'd take SS4, but I'm biased and favour GT to Super.

I favour GT over Super also, but MUI Goku would be far too much for SSJ4 Goku. EoGT Goku is another story.

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by Inedian
I favour GT over Super also, but MUI Goku would be far too much for SSJ4 Goku. EoGT Goku is another story.

What about SSJ4 Gogeta?

Inedian
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
What about SSJ4 Gogeta?

I would like SSJ4 Gogeta to win, but I just don't see it. I think that even in raw power department MUI Goku has the edge. I hope I am wrong.

And I should also watch GT again.

Galan007
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
One could imagine EoGT SS4 Goku would handle MUI Goku with ease... I imagine that Goku had ascended beyond SSJ4 all together. After all, Baby-saga Bulma referenced Vegeta potentially reaching SSJ5, so just imagine the power Goku was able to attain with 100 years of constant training with Shenron + fusing with the goddamn Dragon Balls. blink

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
I asked for power levels in this thread. I hoped for great claculations.

SSJ4 Goku who defeated Shenron. I discussed GT scaling in depth here.

Not trying to toot my own horn, but I can't imagine the 'calcs' being extrapolated on more than I did in that thread. /shrug

One Big Mob
What do you think a generous assumption for Goku in BoG and consequential arcs?
Let's say Goku is twice as strong in SS3 as Kid Buu. Twink mode is at least double SS3, and Blue is at least double Twink. And then you assume Goku doubles every arc. UI is what double KKx20? MUI is double to four times that?

Damborgson
Ssj4 Goku wouldn't be able to lay a hand on him.

AuraAngel

Ridley_Prime
Yeah.

At this point though I would just be happy that SSJ4 is implied equal to Blue for marketing purposes. DB Heroes aside, even in Xenoverse 2 there's a recent DLC story scenario where SSJ4 and SSJB Goku meet. Nice fanservice for fans of either era to say the least.

Estacado
Mui Goku would wipe his ass with Goku add Vegeta and they still lose.

carver9
Think base is above Buu level. He fought 3 Buu level beings solo (with one of them being more powerful than Buu) and was stomping them.

Prof. T.C McAbe
Originally posted by Galan007
I imagine that Goku had ascended beyond SSJ4 all together. After all, Baby-saga Bulma referenced Vegeta potentially reaching SSJ5, so just imagine the power Goku was able to attain with 100 years of constant training with Shenron + fusing with the goddamn Dragon Balls. blink

I discussed GT scaling in depth here.

Not trying to toot my own horn, but I can't imagine the 'calcs' being extrapolated on more than I did in that thread. /shrug

thumb up
Great calcs. From what I read in your calcs however GT should be vastly above Super in terms of powerlevels (not feats). Though the lows are bigger in Super too not only the highs. You say MUI wins iow has a higher powerlevel, how high do you think it is compared to SSJ4 Goku?

If we make it SSJ4 Gogeta, would this change the outcome of this fight?

TheBadguy
Mui is something only the angels have mastered till now..he's not losing to any saiyan except possibly EofGT Goku
And even then if I recall the writers called MUI the strongest goku ever

Estacado
Originally posted by TheBadguy

And even then if I recall the writers called MUI the strongest goku ever

thumb up

Prof. T.C McAbe
Originally posted by TheBadguy
Mui is something only the angels have mastered till now..he's not losing to any saiyan except possibly EofGT Goku
And even then if I recall the writers called MUI the strongest goku ever

Different Writers different Opinions. GT is not a part of DB canon. For example, there are fan DB Tournaments (great art btw) where there are sayan forms far above the MUI Goku. It's not official sure but so is GT.

Estacado
That's like saying I came up with ssgssbzx178 Goku and he is more powerful then MUI one.

Prof. T.C McAbe
Originally posted by Estacado
That's like saying I came up with ssgssbzx178 Goku and he is more powerful then MUI one.

Yes. It would be not official, however if I make a thread about your form vs MUI and the people bother to read it up, we would have a discussion.

GT is not part of the DB canon. MUI Goku might be the most powerful in canon. I am interested in the powerlevels of both the canon and non canon and there the writers opinion of canon is just half of the equation.

Galan007
Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
thumb up
Great calcs. From what I read in your calcs however GT should be vastly above Super in terms of powerlevels (not feats). That depends who you talk to, in all honesty. Some believe DBS multipliers are > GT; some think it's the other way around... Opinions on this topic will vary wildly.

That said, I personally don't think DBS multipliers even began approaching GT multipliers until the end of the ToP. /shrug

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
You say MUI wins iow has a higher powerlevel, how high do you think it is compared to SSJ4 Goku? Indeed... Mainly because multipliers in the ToP have been so utterly asinine that it's nearly impossible to scale them with any sort of accuracy. ermm

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
If we make it SSJ4 Gogeta, would this change the outcome of this fight? Based on scaling alone, I personally think SSJ4 Gogeta would be superior. As I've mentioned before: Gogeta was, as a conservative estimate, tenS of thousandS of timeS more powerful than SSJ3 Z Goku. Hype aside, I just don't view MUI in the same light. /shrug

...And to reiterate: I am ONLY discussing logical power-scaling here. Where feats alone are concerned, DBS is vastly superior.

carver9
Base Vegeta in DBS>>>>>>>SS3 Goku in Z. Remember, Vegeta in base was standing in one spot tanking punches from Gotenks with a smile. Now add in the power ups for SS1, SS2, SS3, SS Red God, SSB, Master Super Saiyan Blue, KKX 20, UI, Mastered UI and this shows that tens of thousands is nothing.

Galan007
In your opinion.

I could just as easily argue that the DBS/God form multipliers aren't even remotely close to what you undoubtedly believe they are, and you couldn't counter with any sort of tangible 'evidence'(because none exists.) smile

Kento
The scene with ssj3 Gotenks being so inferior to Vegeta though can easily be a outlier that doesn't apply to the rest of the series because we seen base Vegeta need ssj against people Fat Buu could take care of.

Granted I argued the ssj3 Gotenks point to prove DBS superiority to GT in the thread. XD but

AuraAngel
Actually I wonder if one could use First Form Freeza being > Buu(I think?) for power scaling. We know more or less how much his other forms increase him by.

carver9
Originally posted by Kento
The scene with ssj3 Gotenks being so inferior to Vegeta though can easily be a outlier that doesn't apply to the rest of the series because we seen base Vegeta need ssj against people Fat Buu could take care of.

Granted I argued the ssj3 Gotenks point to prove DBS superiority to GT in the thread. XD but

Against people you THINK Fat Buu could take care of. Remember, Goku in base took on 3 Buu PLUS level beings on his own and was winning until they pulled out a plot...

TWDzTqj5Ncs

A serious base Vegeta and Goku is above Buu. Sorry.

Kento
Originally posted by carver9
Against people you THINK Fat Buu could take care of. Remember, Goku in base took on 3 Buu PLUS level beings on his own and was winning until they pulled out a plot...

TWDzTqj5Ncs

A serious base Vegeta and Goku is above Buu. Sorry. He goes ssj, and doesn't exactly begin owning them with ease by getting 50x stronger either...

carver9
Originally posted by Kento
He goes ssj, and doesn't exactly begin owning them with ease by getting 50x stronger either...

You probably need to look at that again and him even fighting evenly with them (one of them being more powerful than Buu) while in base still proves my point to be honest. They used a plot to gain the advantage. How would Buu fair again 2 of himself and another being above him? Think about it.

TheBadguy
🤔

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by Galan007
In your opinion.

I could just as easily argue that the DBS/God form multipliers aren't even remotely close to what you undoubtedly believe they are, and you couldn't counter with any sort of tangible 'evidence'(because none exists.) smile

Well we could use Frieza, tbh. With First form Frieza being undoubtedly stronger than "any ki ever felt", by the z-fighters. The highest ki ever felt by the Z-fighters was Buutenks, and keep in mind that Buutenks was AT LEAST approximately 16X greater than SSJ3 DBZ Goku.

Then Frieza's first to 4th form shows a MINIMUM boost of 226X(Frieza's power back on Namek went from 530,000 to 120,000,000 from his first to 4th form. The multiplier should still be accurate). Meaning that 4th form Frieza should be a minimum 3,622X more powerful than SSJ3 DBZ Goku, in RoF. Then couple that with the fact that said Frieza couldn't even touch base Goku, who could then boost himself by 400X by going SSJ3, and MUCH more than even that as a SSJG or SSJB.

That alone makes SSJ3 RoF Goku at LEAST 1,449,056X more powerful than DBZ SSJ3 Goku. That's a MILLION and A HALF times more powerful. Even SSJB Goku from RoF is an ant compared to the likes of ToP and current Goku.

Frankly, I see a lot of argument to be made that the DBS multipliers are FAR greater than the DBGT multipliers, even as early as RoF.

Tbh, I don't even see how this is a contest anymore. DBS has blown GT out of the water, as far as power multipliers go. Even assuming that Super Buu was the being referred to as being inferior to 1st form RoF Frieza, the scale should still put RoF SSJ3 Goku WELL over anything GT could even compare to.

Inedian
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
That alone makes SSJ3 RoF Goku at LEAST 1,449,056X more powerful than DBZ SSJ3 Goku. That's a MILLION and A HALF times more powerful.

The greatest exeggaration there has ever been on any forum anywhere.

GT was winning in scaling until the very end of DBS when MUI Goku has showed up. MUI Goku was extreme jump.

Galan007
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
With First form Frieza being undoubtedly stronger than "any ki ever felt", by the z-fighters. Ambiguous implications are one thing, but this was NEVER actually stated, so I'm not sure why you're using quotes like it's some sort of irrefutable statement..?

But even IF that were the case, the rest of your 'calcs' are hysterically overinflated... Which is a common trope I've seen with quite a few DBS hyper-fans.

Originally posted by Inedian
The greatest exeggaration there has ever been on any forum anywhere.

GT was winning in scaling until the very end of DBS when MUI Goku has showed up. MUI Goku was extreme jump. thumb up

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by Galan007
Ambiguous implications are one thing, but this was NEVER actually stated, so I'm not sure why you're using quotes like it's some sort of irrefutable statement..?

But even IF that were the case, the rest of your 'calcs' are hysterically overinflated... Which is a common trope I've seen with quite a few DBS hyper-fans.

It was stated in the movie, RoF. So I'm not sure why you're suddenly acting as if character statements in DB don't have relevancy, when you're one of biggest known advocates for the validity of statements within the series. I've seen you argue that Goku would oneshot Superman based on statements, and they suddenly don't matter here? Lmao

If you're going to make idiotic comments based on your poor understanding of source material, then at least have the decency to express less of your outright distaste for me, and post something which might actually further the debate instead of making baseless accusations- i.e. "hysterically overinflated calcs", and "DBS hyper-fans". If you had any sort of functioning memory, you'd know that I haven't been much of a fan of DBS, ever since it started. Also, what about my calcs was inflated? It's simple linear math, based on numbers we're literally given from canon source material. You can't even logically argue that- since math should work despite this being an anime. If a character is 1,000 times stronger than a character with a PL of 1,000, then the first character should have a PL of 1,000,000, right?

Look, you can try to downplay all of my comments based on your personal depiction of me, but at least have some reasoning behind it. What exactly doesn't make sense about what I said, or is erroneous? It's been widely accepted for a while now that 1st form RoF Frieza > DBZ Majin Buu, so based on that, what is wrong with what I said?

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by Inedian
N0 ur wr0ng, GT > DBS until UI Goku came along, phucking N00B

Great argument. thumb up

Galan007
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
It was stated in the movie, RoF. No, it wasn't.

At least *try* to get your shit straight if you're going to throw these hyper-aggressive rants my direction. laughing out loud

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by Galan007
No, it wasn't.

At least *try* to get your shit straight if you're going to throw these hyper-aggressive rants my direction. laughing out loud

Don't go getting your feelings hurt Galan, I haven't said anything aggressive on this entire thread, lol.

I'm simply presenting a case, and there's no reason for you to get all sensitive about it because you're upset that I called you out for trolling in another thread. thumb up

Anyway, let's at least pretend to be adults here and have a conversation instead of bashing each other, shall we?

In response to your "debunk" of my claim, I haven't had a chance to rewatch the entire movie yet, but I'll see if I can find what I'm looking for. I'm pretty certain it was you that brought that up in another thread somewhere. Regardless, I'll respond more thoroughly when I get off work.

Galan007
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
I'm pretty certain it was you that brought that up in another thread somewhere. Regardless, I'll respond more thoroughly when I get off work. I've always maintained that it *could* have been the *implication*, based on the Z Fighters' reaction to 1st form Freeza's power in RoF... It was never actually stated, though.

...Although this was also an arc where Gohan and Piccolo were treated as pathetically weak feebs, so that could have contributed to their awe at Freeza's power as well. /shrug

Sj_Sharp
Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
Based off powerlevels, who wins?

Hi Prof! smile

MUI Goku is universal (or more..) in raw power, has reached a state that not even the Gods of Destruction could, he is officially labeled as the strongest Goku in history and, along with Jiren, he is probably the strongest non-Angel entity of at least 8 universes out of 12.

Ssj4 Goku cannot compete, not in powerscaling, not in power, not in feats.

A simple gesture from MUI Goku and the fight is over.

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by Galan007
I've always maintained that it *could* have been the *implication*, based on the Z Fighters' reaction to 1st form Freeza's power in RoF... It was never actually stated, though.

...Although this was also an arc where Gohan and Piccolo were treated as pathetically weak feebs, so that could have contributed to their awe at Freeza's power as well. /shrug

Sorry I haven't replied- been very busy lately. Also, I'm sick right now so I won't revive this conversation for at least another few days.

Anyways, I don't think it was stated that Frieza was the most powerful ki the Z-fighters had ever felt, upon rewatching part of the movie.

Regardless, scaling from just the fact that 1st form Frieza could one-shot Super Namek Piccolo(SSJ1 tier), and SSJ1 Gohan(SSJ1 tier even untrained), we could still definitely reach the conclusion that 4th form Frieza was at least 226X more powerful than a SSJ1- which would still put him dozens of times above any SSJ3 tier we've seen in all of DBZ. Even SSJ3 Goku was only 8 times stronger than a SSJ1. That would make 4th form RoF Frieza around 28 times stronger than SSJ3 Goku, which is still a level that very few characters in DBZ could boast(even Buutenks/Buuhan was demonstrably only about 16X more powerful than SSJ3 Goku).

Just to put that into context, that would make RoF 4th form Frieza about 1.7 times, or almost twice as strong as Buutenks/Buuhan.

Goku in base form literally treated him like he was a child, not even needing SSJ1 or Kaioken to easily dominate him.

That means base Goku RoF >>> 4th Form Frieza(I'm sure we can agree on this), while 4th Form Frieza was almost twice as powerful as Buutenks, going by scaling.

Honestly, that feat alone still puts base RoF Goku well over 30 times more powerful than SSJ3 DBZ Goku. Now multiply that by 400, and you get SSJ3 RoF Goku, which would be at least around 800 times stronger than even Buutenks from DBZ. This would put SSJ3 RoF Goku around 12,800 times more powerful than SSJ3 DBZ Goku.

Then keep in mind that SSJB could easily be hundreds of times(if not more) powerful than SSJ3 Goku, and that Goku got multiple dozens of times stronger from that point, till the ToP, to the point he's at now where he's above a GoD.

Honestly, I don't see how you could even compare GT to that, even with a ton of scaling.

Galan007
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Sorry I haven't replied- been very busy lately. Also, I'm sick right now so I won't revive this conversation for at least another few days. Don't bother. Your calcs rely on quite a bit of speculation, and from that speculation you came up with multipliers that are extremely overinflated, imo. No offense, but I will simply never agree with you here, so there's really no point wasting your time trying to 'prove' your calcs to me. /shrug

Get better, though. thumb up

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Anyways, I don't think it was stated that Frieza was the most powerful ki the Z-fighters had ever felt, upon rewatching part of the movie. See, and you went ape-shit on me the other day when I told you that was never stated. ermmnone

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by Galan007
Don't bother. Your calcs rely on quite a bit of speculation, and from that speculation you came up with multipliers that are extremely overinflated, imo. No offense, but I will simply never agree with you here, so there's really no point wasting your time trying to 'prove' your calcs to me. /shrug

Get better, though. thumb up

See, and you went ape-shit on me the other day when I told you that was never stated. ermmnone

What kind of speculation did my calcs rely on? We see on Namek that from 1st form to 4th form, Frieza's power level becomes 226X greater. Applying this to the minimum PL we can approximate for him(SSJ1 level at LEAST, since he one-shot two SSJ1 tier characters), you can see that Frieza is easily still 28 times stronger than SSJ3 Goku- making him 1.7 times as powerful(almost twice as powerful) as Buutenks.

I'm not even trying to argue at this point, I am just genuinely curious as to what your problem with my calculations on this are. I even adjusted them accordingly, since the statement I was going off of was inaccurate.

So my PL chain goes like this:

RoF base Goku > RoF 4th form Frieza(226X greater than 1st form Frieza) > Buutenks(16X greater than SSJ3 Goku) > SSJ3 DBZ Goku(8X greater than SSJ1 tier) > RoF 1st form Frieza > SSJ1 tier(SSJ1 Gohan, Piccolo, DBZ Goku, etc.)

From there, I just applied Goku's SSJ multipliers to himself- SSJ3 being a 400X boost to base. This makes SSJ3 RoF Goku around 800X greater than Buutenks, which conversely equates to him being 12,800X greater than SSJ3 DBZ Goku.

I'm just curious as to what it is that makes you disagree with these calculations so adamantly- they are based off of feats(Frieza's performance against two SSJ1 tier characters- even if Gohan was weaker, or Piccolo wasn't exactly SSJ1 tier, I could not even consider it a possibility that SSJ1 DBZ Goku could oneshot either of them, which Frieza did easily in 1st form), and canon multipliers(for Goku) STRAIGHT from the Daizenshuu.

Thanks though, I'm slowly getting better. I've had a lot of issues lately with my immunodeficiency disorder, so I basically keep getting sick and it's harder to get better every time I do get sick, lol. Appreciate the well wishes, it's just because of the shitty climate where I currently live(Ohio). One day can be 70 degrees and sunny, whereas the next day can be 10 degrees and 8 inches of snow on the ground.

Anyways, I'm sorry if you interpreted what I said as me going apeshit on you, lol. I'm just very curious as to what problem you actually have with the calcs that I just posted.

One Big Mob
The problem is is that you're scaling from base Goku in that movie when he was supposed to be around God level as base at that point in time. As we have seen things have changed and Frieza has as well.

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by One Big Mob
The problem is is that you're scaling from base Goku in that movie when he was supposed to be around God level as base at that point in time. As we have seen things have changed and Frieza has as well.

Uh, if anything, that supports my case even futher...?

Goku still had SSJ3, and it was still a 400X boost to base form. This has never changed.

That just shows that SSJB and SSJG are clearly a far greater boost to base than SSJ3, which does absolutely nothing to discredit the calculations I just posted.

One Big Mob
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Uh, if anything, that supports my case even futher...?

Goku still had SSJ3, and it was still a 400X boost to base form. This has never changed.

That just shows that SSJB and SSJG are clearly a far greater boost to base than SSJ3, which does absolutely nothing to discredit the calculations I just posted. Except Goku and Frieza have lost this massive powerup as their base forms. Goku used to be far above ss3 Gotenks in base, yet we've seen him struggle with SS Gohan in SS prior to the ToP training. We saw Vegeta being comparable to Cabba. Goku being comparable to Trunks when Trunks had his last comparable power level as being in a hard fight against Dabura. Even after years of training Goku was about even with Caulifla until he apparently got a huge powerup from his first UI zenkai failure.

His base being that level was dropped after Googeta. As we saw in BoG his base was intended to be God level, which would make it Twink level. SS3 was not an upgrade from that. But it was retconned.

What you're saying is that BoG was his default in power while he still retained all his multipliers and Blue and Red were far above this.
So... let's say Twink was a ten times boost from SS1. And since every important transformation in DB is at least a double boost from the last, we'll say Blue is double Red.
What this means is that Goku's theoretical Red Form in RoF was 1000 times more powerful than his BoG Red Form. Blue would be 2000 times more powerful. Frieza was over 2000 times more powerful than God Goku when he fought Beerus. Do you really believe this is the intent?

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by One Big Mob
Except Goku and Frieza have lost this massive powerup as their base forms. Goku used to be far above ss3 Gotenks in base, yet we've seen him struggle with SS Gohan in SS prior to the ToP training. We saw Vegeta being comparable to Cabba. Goku being comparable to Trunks when Trunks had his last comparable power level as being in a hard fight against Dabura. Even after years of training Goku was about even with Caulifla until he apparently got a huge powerup from his first UI zenkai failure.

His base being that level was dropped after Googeta. As we saw in BoG his base was intended to be God level, which would make it Twink level. SS3 was not an upgrade from that. But it was retconned.

What you're saying is that BoG was his default in power while he still retained all his multipliers and Blue and Red were far above this.
So... let's say Twink was a ten times boost from SS1. And since every important transformation in DB is at least a double boost from the last, we'll say Blue is double Red.
What this means is that Goku's theoretical Red Form in RoF was 1000 times more powerful than his BoG Red Form. Blue would be 2000 times more powerful. Frieza was over 2000 times more powerful than God Goku when he fought Beerus. Do you really believe this is the intent?

1. Gohan had been training with Piccolo at that point for an undefined amount of time.

2. Goku didn't somehow get weaker in base from RoF to the ToP, lmao.

3. Everything you just said was based on incorrect assumptions with absolutely no basis in anything factual.

4. Uh, literally none of the "math" you just posted was accurate, in any way/shape/form. What makes you think that SSJG being a 10X boost to SSJ1 makes Goku in RoF 1,000X more powerful than BoG's Goku? Also, you just pulled SSJG being a 10X boost to SSJ1 out of your ass.

One Big Mob
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
1. Gohan had been training with Piccolo at that point for an undefined amount of time.

2. Goku didn't somehow get weaker in base from RoF to the ToP, lmao.

3. Everything you just said was based on incorrect assumptions with absolutely no basis in anything factual.

4. Uh, literally none of the "math" you just posted was accurate, in any way/shape/form. What makes you think that SSJG being a 10X boost to SSJ1 makes Goku in RoF 1,000X more powerful than BoG's Goku? Also, you just pulled SSJG being a 10X boost to SSJ1 out of your ass. Goku has been training in time chambers and with Gods, and that's since he started off in base 226 times more powerful than SS Gohan. That means base Gohan has gotten at least 11300 times more powerful before intensive ToP training to compete with Goku from even RoF.
The numbers I pulled out of my ass there are SS being 50 times base and 226 being at least how much more powerful Goku is.

Then everyone else has gotten hundreds of times if not thousands of times more powerful, in base.

Everything I said was based on your line of logic. I'm glad to know you disagree with it and can't be consistent at all.

Because I just threw that out there as a low number. You said SSG is far superior to SS3, so being very conservative, I came up with 10 times, since SS3 is an 8 times multiplier.
Goku's base at that time was said to be at or near his BoG God form. Since he absorbed and maintained that level after it wore off.

So if his base is at BoG levels and he still maintains the SS forms while you yourself have said God and Blue are far better than SS3 which you say is a 400 times boost to RoF...

That would mean that even SS3 in your opinion is 400 times more powerful than BoG Goku.




Oh I see what I did wrong. 10 times would only be 500 times more powerful than base. Which would mean blue is 1000 times following these estimates. My mistake. So following your logic and giving very low estimates, SSBlue Goku was only 1000 times more powerful than BoG Goku. And it really shows.

Galan007
Yeah, Goku's non-God forms possessing God-tier power in DBS is a horrendously inconsistent plot-point, to say the least.

People forget that when BoG and RoF were first released(ie. before the DBS anime was a thing), Toriyama stated that Goku would not be using the higher forms of Super Saiyan any longer, because they are essentially worthless:


...Which is why Toriyama put so much emphasis on bolstering the power of Goku's base and SSJ1 forms in those films -- it's all he was originally going to have Goku use from that point forward.


Fast-forward to current/DBS, however, and the higher forms of Super Saiyan have been used numerous times by Goku... And in most cases, the power of his 'regular' SSJ forms isn't implied to be 'hyper-God-amped, or w/e. IOW, Toriyama clearly had a change of heart where that is concerned.


*A great example of this is when SSJ2 Goku fought SSJ2 future Trunks. They were peers, but Trunks was slightly more powerful. What's more, Goku was impressed by Trunks' power because it was "even stronger than Gohan's" during the Cell Games:
https://i.imgur.com/suWDANo.png
https://i.imgur.com/yZYhu97.png

If Goku's SSJ forms were always intended to be 'hyper-God-amped' in DBS, he certainly would NOT still be using Cell-era Gohan as a measuring stick, lol. /shrug

One Big Mob
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The second we found out they could still transform into SS forms, it went right out the window in a massive retcon. Otherwise the implications are too much. The show is already inconsistent enough, that would just blow everyones minds up.

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by One Big Mob
Goku has been training in time chambers and with Gods, and that's since he started off in base 226 times more powerful than SS Gohan. That means base Gohan has gotten at least 11300 times more powerful before intensive ToP training to compete with Goku from even RoF.
The numbers I pulled out of my ass there are SS being 50 times base and 226 being at least how much more powerful Goku is.

Then everyone else has gotten hundreds of times if not thousands of times more powerful, in base.

Everything I said was based on your line of logic. I'm glad to know you disagree with it and can't be consistent at all.

Because I just threw that out there as a low number. You said SSG is far superior to SS3, so being very conservative, I came up with 10 times, since SS3 is an 8 times multiplier.
Goku's base at that time was said to be at or near his BoG God form. Since he absorbed and maintained that level after it wore off.

So if his base is at BoG levels and he still maintains the SS forms while you yourself have said God and Blue are far better than SS3 which you say is a 400 times boost to RoF...

That would mean that even SS3 in your opinion is 400 times more powerful than BoG Goku.




Oh I see what I did wrong. 10 times would only be 500 times more powerful than base. Which would mean blue is 1000 times following these estimates. My mistake. So following your logic and giving very low estimates, SSBlue Goku was only 1000 times more powerful than BoG Goku. And it really shows.

1. Gohan never seriously competed with Goku, iirc, in DBS. Regardless, him getting thousands of times stronger by training vigorously, after not training for years, would not be strange at all. His latent potential has always been insane.

2. As Galan pointed out, the god ki in base form concept is wildly inconsistent, and has been for the most part retconned. Regardless, we also see Goku in base being on par with/superior to an amped Majin Buu. The problem with DBS is that it's very inconsistent, but regardless, we see the intent was clearly to make Goku much stronger in base than he was as a SSJ3 in DBZ. Him going into other SSJ forms and holding back while fighting weaker people is just fan-service at this point, so they wouldn't get rid of his other forms altogether, imo.

3. Wrong. I'm sorry if you don't realize it, but you're not even using logic here. Like, at all. Your argument isn't even linear, and your makeshift scaling in an attempt to downplay mine, isn't even mathematically accurate, lol.

4. Regardless, it's clear that Goku post BoG's can use godly ki in all of his other forms. Whether or not he decides to is a different matter altogether. He can still use regular ki, otherwise no one would be able to sense him at all. If he just sticks to regular ki and goes SSJ, it's unclear how strong he is. Regardless, using godly ki as a SSJ3 should easily make my scaling accurate. Remember, I'm trying to determine his max- not his average(holding back massive amounts of power).

5. Um okay? SSJG may well be a 10x boost to SSJ3, but clearly Goku went from fighting somewhat around Beerus' level as a SSJG, to fighting just as well with him as a SSJ1. This doesn't mean that SSJG somehow doesn't make him stronger anymore- you're misinterpreting what happened. It means that he can now use godly ki in forms other than SSJG. SSJG can still be an amp, by increasing the amount of godly ki he uses. This isn't that complicated, dude.

6. Uh, nowhere did I even try to measure the gap between regular ki and godly ki. Going by my scale, RoF base Goku should be well above pre-BoG's Goku's SSJ3 form. As I've pointed out, he was able to effortlessly dominate 4th form RoF Frieza, who should be something around twice as strong as Buutenks. I'm not sure where you're coming up with the "1,000", "500", and "2,000"'s from.

Anyways, going by "my logic", the first time Goku used SSJG(the red form) it made him MARGINALLY stronger, in all of his forms- allowing him to go from getting lol-stomped by a less-than-1% Beerus as a SSJ3, to fighting somewhat evenly with him as a SSJ1. This means that post-BoG's, his SSJG form should be much stronger as well- assuming that it scales with the other forms. It would be very odd if SSJG stayed the same strength, while all the other forms were massively boosted. (and don't bring up the Beerus fight, claiming that should put his SSJ3 above Beerus- Beerus and Whiss both clearly admitted that he was holding back most of his power)

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by Galan007
Yeah, Goku's non-God forms possessing God-tier power in DBS is a horrendously inconsistent plot-point, to say the least.

People forget that when BoG and RoF were first released(ie. before the DBS anime was a thing), Toriyama stated that Goku would not be using the higher forms of Super Saiyan any longer, because they are essentially worthless:


...Which is why Toriyama put so much emphasis on bolstering the power of Goku's base and SSJ1 forms in those films -- it's all he was originally going to have Goku use from that point forward.


Fast-forward to current/DBS, however, and the higher forms of Super Saiyan have been used numerous times by Goku... And in most cases, the power of his 'regular' SSJ forms isn't implied to be 'hyper-God-amped, or w/e. IOW, Toriyama clearly had a change of heart where that is concerned.


*A great example of this is when SSJ2 Goku fought SSJ2 future Trunks. They were peers, but Trunks was slightly more powerful. What's more, Goku was impressed by Trunks' power because it was "even stronger than Gohan's" during the Cell Games:
https://i.imgur.com/suWDANo.png
https://i.imgur.com/yZYhu97.png

If Goku's SSJ forms were always intended to be 'hyper-God-amped' in DBS, he certainly would NOT still be using Cell-era Gohan as a measuring stick, lol. /shrug

I think you're misunderstanding what happened. Goku was sparring with Trunks, and more than likely not even using godly ki against him, until the very last instant(when he oneshot him). Pretty soon afterwards, SSJ2 Vegeta going at full power was utterly dominating SSJ1 Goku Black, who was completely superior to all of Trunks' forms, in base. Keep in mind, this is SSJ2 Vegeta- not SSJB Vegeta.

https://i1.mangapanda.com/dragon-ball-super/19/dragon-ball-super-8694223.jpg

It makes sense that Goku and Vegeta would have to consciously choose to use godly ki, and can use just regular ki when they want to. Otherwise, none of the others would be able to sense them.

This means that Goku/Vegeta using godly ki > SSJ1 Goku Black >>(50x greater than)>> Base Goku Black >>> SSJ2 Trunks

Just because he managed to fight pretty well doesn't mean he's anywhere near an all out Goku.

Galan007
I'm not 'misunderstanding' the scene at all. I'm telling you exactly what happened, without adding my own personal conjecture to explicitly-stated material, like you just did... If you have an issue with the scene, I suggest you send Toriyama and/or Toyotaro a Tweet. thumb up


And why on earth do you think that Goku can pick and choose when he uses Godly ki and when he doesn't? I can assure you that definitely is not the case at all. Goku generates 'normal' ki in base-SSJ3. He only starts generating 'Godly' ki in SSG and upward.

That's why the Gods only started sensing Godly ki from Goku AFTER he went from SSJ3 to SSG against Toppo:
https://i.imgur.com/KsRUTMt.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/RYmnDNR.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/2aqKnkx.jpg

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by Galan007
I'm not 'misunderstanding' the scene at all. I'm telling you exactly what happened, without adding my own personal conjecture to explicitly-stated material, like you just did... If you have an issue with the scene, I suggest you send Toriyama and/or Toyotaro a Tweet. thumb up


And why on earth do you think that Goku can pick and choose when he uses Godly ki and when he doesn't? I can assure you that definitely is not the case at all. Goku generates 'normal' ki in base-SSJ3. He only starts generating 'Godly' ki in SSG and upward.

That's why the Gods only started sensing Godly ki from Goku AFTER he went from SSJ3 to SSG against Toppo:
https://i.imgur.com/KsRUTMt.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/RYmnDNR.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/2aqKnkx.jpg

I don't have any issues with the scene- I have an issue with you pointing out inconsistencies without explaining bothering to attempt deducing what said inconsistency means in relation to other showings from the series.

Let me try to explain exactly what I mean: If Goku can't use godly ki in any other form, then what was it that brought his SSJ1 up to SSJG level after using godly ki for the first time? It was outright stated that he absorbed the godly ki, so wouldn't it make sense that he was using said godly ki in his SSJ1 form?

Either way, even if we're just to assume that it simply boosted his regular SSJ1 form to the point of being SSJG level, it doesn't disprove or even dispute my claim that 4th form Frieza > Buutenks(DBZ).

The only possibilities in these showings would be that- A. Going SSJG the first time brought Goku's SSJ1 form up to the level of SSJG- which would conversely give a massive boost to all his other forms as well, or B. Going SSJG the first time familiarized Goku with godly ki, allowing him to use it in all of his forms, to a lesser extent than when he's a SSJG/SSJB(same thing that happens when he goes SSJ in DBZ, but with the addition of him being able to use godly ki at will).

Either way, you never stated what problem you had with the calculations I posted for RoF Frieza, putting his 1st form above SSJ1 tier characters, and his 4th form potentially above Buutenks level. I'm still curious as to what problem you have with that calc, since I've redacted the "1st form stronger than Buutenks" thing.

Galan007
You're not understanding.

The entire crux of mine and bran's argument is that Goku's standard SSJ forms being 'hyper-God-amped' is probably one of the single most inconsistent plot-points in DBS. Sometimes his standard forms appear to be God-amped, but more times than not, they don't appear to be anymore powerful than normal(the first scene I posted all but spells this out.) And again: Goku only generates Godly ki when he accesses SSG and upward -- his base-SSJ3 forms generate 'normal' ki exclusively(the second scene I posted all but spells this out as well.)

Please don't make this more than it is... Again.

bbrem123
I dont even know why you guys are arguing this. Hell even if we don't say Goku's base and SSJ forms are amped by God Kai we still have issues. I have seen Base form displayed as superior to SSJ/SSJ2 more than a few times. Hell im almost positive we will see base form Goku withstand Jiren in the next episode to some extent.

I would try and use only the manga to argue these kinds of things. The anime is just a mess.

Galan007
Gogeta is the only person here that is arguing, tbh. All the rest of us are saying is that Goku's power in his non-God forms is wildly inconsistent in the anime(which you seem to agree with.) Sometimes these forms appear to be amped; sometimes they don't.

His power in the manga is A LOT more consistent, though... That's why I've been referencing it for the most part here. thumb up

bbrem123
Sorry I attempted to read all the post...but sadly I scanned through them extremely fast not really getting the gist of the debate. stick out tongue

Galan007
thumb up

I wouldn't read them either, tbh.

One Big Mob
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
1. Gohan never seriously competed with Goku, iirc, in DBS. Regardless, him getting thousands of times stronger by training vigorously, after not training for years, would not be strange at all. His latent potential has always been insane.

2. As Galan pointed out, the god ki in base form concept is wildly inconsistent, and has been for the most part retconned. Regardless, we also see Goku in base being on par with/superior to an amped Majin Buu. The problem with DBS is that it's very inconsistent, but regardless, we see the intent was clearly to make Goku much stronger in base than he was as a SSJ3 in DBZ. Him going into other SSJ forms and holding back while fighting weaker people is just fan-service at this point, so they wouldn't get rid of his other forms altogether, imo.

3. Wrong. I'm sorry if you don't realize it, but you're not even using logic here. Like, at all. Your argument isn't even linear, and your makeshift scaling in an attempt to downplay mine, isn't even mathematically accurate, lol.

4. Regardless, it's clear that Goku post BoG's can use godly ki in all of his other forms. Whether or not he decides to is a different matter altogether. He can still use regular ki, otherwise no one would be able to sense him at all. If he just sticks to regular ki and goes SSJ, it's unclear how strong he is. Regardless, using godly ki as a SSJ3 should easily make my scaling accurate. Remember, I'm trying to determine his max- not his average(holding back massive amounts of power).

5. Um okay? SSJG may well be a 10x boost to SSJ3, but clearly Goku went from fighting somewhat around Beerus' level as a SSJG, to fighting just as well with him as a SSJ1. This doesn't mean that SSJG somehow doesn't make him stronger anymore- you're misinterpreting what happened. It means that he can now use godly ki in forms other than SSJG. SSJG can still be an amp, by increasing the amount of godly ki he uses. This isn't that complicated, dude.

6. Uh, nowhere did I even try to measure the gap between regular ki and godly ki. Going by my scale, RoF base Goku should be well above pre-BoG's Goku's SSJ3 form. As I've pointed out, he was able to effortlessly dominate 4th form RoF Frieza, who should be something around twice as strong as Buutenks. I'm not sure where you're coming up with the "1,000", "500", and "2,000"'s from.

Anyways, going by "my logic", the first time Goku used SSJG(the red form) it made him MARGINALLY stronger, in all of his forms- allowing him to go from getting lol-stomped by a less-than-1% Beerus as a SSJ3, to fighting somewhat evenly with him as a SSJ1. This means that post-BoG's, his SSJG form should be much stronger as well- assuming that it scales with the other forms. It would be very odd if SSJG stayed the same strength, while all the other forms were massively boosted. (and don't bring up the Beerus fight, claiming that should put his SSJ3 above Beerus- Beerus and Whiss both clearly admitted that he was holding back most of his power) Gohan had a decent fight with Goku while both were impressed with each other.
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And no, Gohan would have had to get over 11 thousand times stronger to compete with base Goku from RoF. Keep in mind Goku got more powerful to the U6 tourney, and then he apparently got 20 times more powerful when he stalemated Assassin Hit after the Black series. Which means Gohan would have at least had to get 200 000 times stronger to even hope to challenge a holding back Goku.
And this was before Gohan even trained to unlock his Mystic form, which I believe was said that he wasn't even as powerful as anymore. Goku in the meantime was fighting everything.



It's not wildly inconsistent enough to exist in other forms though. It was originally intended to be his base, but as we saw later God ki was only in his actual God forms.
Also the Buu fight could be as simple as him being incredibly skilled. A couple examples do not override the overwhelming examples though. Goku's base being that strong is largely gone outside a few cases. He has much more examples of having trouble with these feebs than being over SS3 level.



It is though. Which is why you won't even pretend to talk about the implications.



It's not clear at all. Everytime he uses Godly Ki it's shown as a transformation or a very quick one.
Plus how does that even change anything in my argument anyway? So he can use Godly ki and then overlap a 400 times boost on top of that? And we assume SSG is still an amp so that amps him even further? I realize you're making this up so you can ignore every other feat but him looking incredible in base but it still flows into my issues with this scaling.
It still means all of my problems with the scaling are accurate, but you cover your ass by saying that I can bring up nothing Goku does to say he isn't that powerful because he's using his never before stated, no indication Godly Ki to secretly amp his forms.


He punched apart the combination of all the power he could use as a SS and Beerus' power in base form in BoG. His base form was God level or became it. And I didn't say SSG was a 10 times boost to SS3 or even come close to saying that. I said SSG was at least a ten times boost to SSONE, since SS3 is an 8 times boost. Actually this whole number 5 section of yours proves you don't understand what I said at all.
Look, even you said SSG can still amp him and is greater than SS3. You also think that even with already using Godly energy, SS3 can amp him 400 times on top of that. Which using my scaling, SSG would still be a 500 times amp from his base, so... I don't even think you know what I'm saying.


6. Look let's shift it to exactly what you're saying and give it very small amounts so you can stop getting completely confused.
If we use your scaling and your words, that means SS1 Goku from RoF = SSG from BoG. That means that SS3 would beat 8 times stronger than SSG from BoG. Using my scaling of lowball estimates, that would mean that SSG from RoF would be ten times stronger than SSG from BoG. That would mean that noob SSBlue is 20 times stronger than SSG from BoG.
That is directly from what your words are saying.
My problem is that I don't think Goku's multipliers were actually considered while he was actually God level at base, otherwise you have at the minimum stupid shit like this. There's no ****ing way Frieza was considered over 20 times more powerful than BoG Goku. We've already seen Beerus get retconned a ton, why is it so hard to believe that Goku's base got retconned as well when nothing supports him keeping this base level outside few and far between showings, and you have to invent an invisible never said powerup to make sense of it.

Yes, him adding Godly ki would make everything fit together better. I never said otherwise. The issue is that was not said to be the case where he could add bits and pieces to every transformation.



And no, I'm not saying it didn't make every form better. Actually read my post. I'm saying that this God Form base went away the second transormation multipliers stuck around. If it stuck around it makes a mess of everything.
Because Goku's base form could reach SSG levels from BoG... in BoG too. Invisible divine Ki powerup or not. That leads us to Goku getting at least 1000 times more powerful in RoF if we factor in multipliers.
As you already said, his forms still amp him the correct amount even with the off panel divine Ki boosts. That means again, not sure why I have to spell it out, that SS3 is 400 times more powerful than SSG from BoG. And because you might not still know what I'm saying, I'll make a little chart.


If the multiplers are still in effect factoring in the secret divine ki, this is what we get. Left side is RoF. Right side is Bog. This ignores training and that stuff and only factors in multipliers.

Your direct words with my lowball estimates:
SS1 Goku = SSG
SS2 Goku is twice as powerful as SSG
SS3 Goku is 8 times as powerful as SSG
SSG is ten times as powerful as SSG
SSB is 20 times as powerful as SSG


The reality of what it actually is
Base Goku = BoG Goku
SS1 Goku is 50 times more powerful than SSG
SS2 Goku is 100 times more powerful than SSG
SS3 Goku is 400 times more powerful than SSG
SSG is 500 times more powerful than SSG
SSB is 1000 times more powerful than SSG



Do you see what my problem is now? The series already has massive issues with scaling (if you double Goku's power every saga he already becomes thousands of times more powerful than BoG Twink God). If we factor in his base being God form it goes completely overboard... in the next saga.

It got retconned away is what I'm saying. He'll still get good feats in base as he did get more powerful and also inconsistent writing, but it isn't the norm anymore. It however was intended to be his base in the movies and SS forms were being done away. Unfortunately he changed his mind to give losers like Gohan a chance to be relevant.

One Big Mob
If you want a more accurate way to measure DBS using the anime, you can simply use the logic that they double their power from every saga and still come out with some stupid shit.

If you start at BoG SSG Goku and make that his base and assume Blue is only a two times amp you get something like this:
BoG SSG Goku
RoF SSG is twice as powerful
RoF Blue is 4 times as powerful
U6 Blue is 8 times as powerful
U6 KKx20 is 160 times as powerful
After Black saga Blue Goku is 160 times more powerful via stalemating non holding back Hit
Let's say end of ToP Goku Blue is 320 times more powerful
KKx20 Goku is 6400 times more powerful
Let's assume UI is a double boost to that and MUI is a double boost to that.

MUI Goku is 25600 times more powerful than BoG Goku.


Those are low estimates and it still comes out to a stupid level. The saga is already wildly inconsistent enough without factoring in base God Goku or even SS1 Goku being equal BoG Goku to say the least laughing out loud

Galan007
If DB has proven anything since the Freeza saga, it's that relatively small differences in power can still allow one character to utterly STOMP another character.

-n00b-SSJ Goku was only about 20% more powerful than 100% Freeza, yet stomped him decisively in the manga.
-Imperfect Cell was somewhere around 2x Kamiccolo/#17-level, yet stomped both of them with almost no effort at all.
-FPSSJ Goku was likely between 2-3x ASSJ Vegeta, yet was considered vastly more powerful.
-SSJ2 Gohan was LESS THAN 2x Perfect Cell, yet casually beat the ever-loving shit out of him.
-Mystic Gohan was LESS THAN 2x Super Boo, yet casually beat the ever-loving shit out of him.
-Bootenks was LESS THAN 2x Mystic Gohan, yet casually beat the ever-loving shit out of him.
etc. etc. etc.

Some people tend to 'forget' this when they discuss DBS multipliers. Before you know it they're talking about multipliers in the hundredS of thousandS(cuz reasons), when DB-logic has historically...and consistently...told us that the SAME type of differences between characters can exist, with astronomically lower multipliers.

Frankly, SSG could have 'just' been 50x SSJ3, and Goku would've still considered it to be an astronomically massive amp, that put him in a whole new realm of power that he could have NEVER reached otherwise... And frankly, that *would* indeed be the case, considering his power seemed to have plateaued by the start of BoG.

As for the SSG to SSB multiplier: the only piece of evidence suggestive of what it might be occurred in the manga's rendition of the U6vs.U7 Tournament, wherein Whis implied that SSG is around 1/10 of SSB(ie. SSB is 10x SSG):
https://i.imgur.com/52x7csU.jpg

...But that's not a discussion I'm getting into here. Just mentioning it because again, it suggests that there doesn't have to be these laughably overinflated multipliers for characters in DBS to be as powerful as they are.
srug

One Big Mob
thumb up

Yeah, I didn't know the actual multipliers so I just lowballed it hard. SSG being ten times SS1 for example.

DBZ and onwards has always had at least a 2 times amp on any transformation though. So realistically it'd be at least 16 times SS1 at the minimum. To reach the levels it'd need to to beat Vegito out it'd be probably 100 times SS3...

But yeah Blue being ten times God would lead to some stupid levels.


I'm just going to play it safe and go double double. Which would make Twink twice as strong as SS3, and Blue twice as strong as Twink. So Blue is 32 times as strong as SS1.
The absolute minimum they'd be I think would be ten times SS1 and twice that. So Blue is 20 times SS1.

And if you really wanted to pick a power level out for I guess BoG, and go onwards you could just assume he's equal to Frieza's full power and just go by multipliers. Then make it as messy as you want.


It's probably pretty close to Namek insanity by now if not worse.

Galan007
But there again: Vegito could have 'just' been between 2-4x Boohan, and would have still rape-stomped him just as effortlessly -- and being 2-4x Boohan would have still put Vegito worlds beyond SSJ3 Goku and Mystic Gohan... IOW, the SSJ3 to SSG multiplier doesn't necessarily *have* to be anywhere near 100x for SSG to still be FAR beyond Vegito... Even a 50x boost over SSJ3 would be MORE than enough, imo. /shrug


Oh, I'm not going to attempt scaling ToP multipliers, ever. They are so far into the realm of facepalm-worthy ridiculousness that there's no way to even ballpark them at this point. sick

One Big Mob
Originally posted by Galan007
But there again: Vegito could have 'just' been between 2-4x Boohan, and would have still rape-stomped him just as effortlessly -- and being 2-4x Boohan would have still put Vegito worlds beyond SSJ3 Goku and Mystic Gohan... IOW, the SSJ3 to SSG multiplier doesn't necessarily *have* to be anywhere near 100x for SSG to still be FAR beyond Vegito... Even a 50x boost over SSJ3 would be MORE than enough, imo. /shrug


Oh, I'm not going to attempt scaling ToP multipliers, ever. They are so far into the realm of facepalm-worthy ridiculousness that there's no way to even ballpark them at this point. sick I was just assuming Base form was at least around SS3 Goku level because of the anime fight, base Vegito damaging Merged Zamasu, and the Kefla fight.
I would be more than fine with it only being a couple times Buuhan though.

I'm going to do it I think in depth with multipliers and exact power levels in a lowball estimate. Later today though.
It's going to be a disaster. I just have to work up the energy to grab my computer today.

Galan007
Originally posted by One Big Mob
I was just assuming Base form was at least around SS3 Goku level because of the anime fight, base Vegito damaging Merged Zamasu, and the Kefla fight.
I would be more than fine with it only being a couple times Buuhan though.

I'm going to do it I think in depth with multipliers and exact power levels in a lowball estimate. Later today though.
It's going to be a disaster. I just have to work up the energy to grab my computer today. So you're using the anime as your primary reference? I wouldn't when at all possible, tbh -- the manga has been a LOT more consistent with powerlevels in general. You're also going with the logic that Goku's standard/non-god forms are always intended hyper-amped for the purposes of this scaling(even though they aren't), I take it?

Tbh, I don't see how you can even begin to come up with accurate ToP multipliers, but cheers for even trying to make sense out of the nonsensical. thumb up



...Personally, I'm not even going to think about scaling the ToP until after the manga's rendition of it is finished. I feel like it will be way more cohesive(and quantifiable) than the anime has been.

One Big Mob
Originally posted by Galan007
So you're using the anime as your primary reference? I wouldn't when at all possible, tbh -- the manga has been a LOT more consistent with powerlevels in general. You're also going with the logic that Goku's standard/non-god forms are always intended hyper-amped for the purposes of this scaling(even though they aren't), I take it?

Tbh, I don't see how you can even begin to come up with accurate ToP multipliers, but cheers for even trying to make sense out of the nonsensical. thumb up



...Personally, I'm not even going to think about scaling the ToP until after the manga's rendition of it is finished. I feel like it will be way more cohesive(and quantifiable) than the anime has been. Yeah, anime. Just because it has some actual numbers attached to it, and a little more feats to go off of. It's pretty much everything I've been saying recently but with actual numbers and what they mean.

Ignoring the God base forms entirely just like the majority of Super. Starting Goku at 100 million so it'd put him as a good fight for Frieza, but still below him. All I'm going to do is double everything to give a low estimate unless otherwise stated. It's still going to go pretty off the wall I imagine.

I'll have some basis, but I still think everything will come out at the very low end of what the reality is.

Galan007
Well, you at least know what the Kaioken multipliers are for sure(duh), and you can assume that anytime character 'A' stomps the bejesus out of character 'B', they are no less than 2x more powerful(that's how DB has always worked.)

You'll start running into problems in later episodes of the ToP, though, because that's where things started going sideways... That's when a baseline SSB Goku(no KK) was basically shown to be substantially more powerful than he was the first 2 times he accessed n00b-UI, thanks to his fights with Jiren. Shit like that.

Truly this will be a herculean effort on your end. thumb up

One Big Mob
For the purposes of this, I'm going to assume some things. Going by how every transformation has been at least double in DBZ/Super I will only be going by doubling the last transformation unless otherwise stated.
For example:

Oozaru = 10 times base
Kaio-Ken = 2 times to 20 times
Super Saiyan = 50 times base
Super Saiyan 2 = 100 times base/2 times Super Saiyan 1
Super Saiyan 3 = 400 times base/4 times Super Saiyan 2/8 times Super Saiyan 1


These are established multipliers. Now I go into assumption. As we see, everything is at least twice the last form. So I will use that low estimate to assume what the Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue multipliers are. As well as UI and MUI. Again, low estimate.


Super Saiyan God = 800 times base/2 times Super Saiyan 3/16 times Super Saiyan 1
Super Saiyan Blue = 1600 times base/2 times Super Saiyan God/32 times Super Saiyan
Super Saiyan Blue Kaio-Ken times 20 = 32000 times base/20 times Super Saiyan Blue/40 times Super Saiyan God/640 times Super Saiyan 1
Ultra Instinct = 64000 times base/2 times Super Saiyan KKx20/80 times Super Saiyan God/1280 times Super Saiyan 1
Mastered Ultra Instinct = 128 000 times base/2 times Ultra Instinct/80 times Super Saiyan Blue/160 times Super Saiyan God/2560 times Super Saiyan 1



------------------



So I think that's fair. That is the multipliers I'm going with. So next, I am going to go through the Sagas. As with what we've seen in DBZ, the characters seem to get at least twice as powerful as they were the last saga. So I think 2 times is a fair assumption going saga to saga.

Super Saiyan God will be my baseline in this one. I will be ignoring the lesser forms of Super Saiyan, as well as Goku's base form. After the Black Saga Goku stalemated full assassin Hit, so that will be our baseline for the start of the Tournament of Power. The end of Tournament of Power, I will be assuming Goku doubled in power, which is backed up by the fact that his SSBlueKKx20 did about as well as his Ultra Instinct did.


Battle of the Gods = 1 SSG
Resurrection of F Super Saiyan Blue = 2 SSG
Universe 6 Tournament SSB = 4 SSG/2 Super Saiyan Blue
Universe 6 Super Saiyan BlueKKx20 = 160 SSG/40 Super Saiyan Blue
End of Black Saga/Start of ToP SSB = 160 SSG/40 Super Saiyan Blue
EoB/Start of ToP SSBlue KKx20 = 3200 SSG/1600 Super Saiyan Blue
EoB/Start of ToP Ultra Instinct = 6400 SSG/3200 Super Saiyan Blue
End of ToP SSB = 320 SSG/80 Super Saiyan Blue
End of ToP KKBluex20 = 6400 SSG/3200 Super Saiyan Blue
End of ToP Ultra Instinct = 12800 SSG/6400 Super Saiyan Blue

End of ToP Mastered Ultra Instinct = 25600 SSG/12800 Super Saiyan Blue



------------------



Next we'll move onto Power Levels. For this purpose, I'll make Goku at 100 million. Beerus said Goku couldn't beat Frieza at his base form, yet he shouldn't have been far off. 100 million makes him within reason of Frieza's power level, but still below it. It seems like a fair number to base it off of. BoG again, will be our baseline

BoG
Base = 100 million
SS = 5 billion
SS2 = 10 billion
SS3 = 40 Billion
SSG = 80 billion


RoF
Base = 200 million
SS = 10 billion
SS2 = 20 billion
SS3 = 80 billion
SSG = 160 billion
SSB = 320 billion


Universe 6 Tournament
Base = 400 million
SS = 20 billion
SS2 = 40 billion
SS3 = 160 billion
SSG = 320 billion
SSB = 640 billion
SSBKKx2 = 12.8 trillion


End of Black saga/Start of ToP
Base = 8 billion
SS = 400 billion
SS2 = 800 billion
SS3 = 3.2 trillion
SSG = 6.4 trillion
SSB = 12.8 trillion
SSBKKx20 = 256 trillion
Ultra Instinct = 512 trillion


End of ToP
Base = 16 billion
SS = 800 billion
SS2 = 1.6 trillion
SS3 = 6.4 trillion
SSG = 12.8 trillion
SSB = 25.6 trillion
SSBKKx20 = 512 trillion
Ultra Instinct = 1.024 Quadrillion
Mastered Ultra Instinct = 2.048 Quadrillion






Now of course these aren't exact. Though I think the God levels are a little more accurate and based off what we've seen a lot more possible to be accurate. I think double is more than fair on God from Blue, though narration does seem to disagree. SS3 to God however at least according to the first movie/manga/arc does seem to be a little more than double though. If that's the case, it wouldn't be too hard to shift them. You could keep the estimates on the God forms and simply up it to whatever degree the multipliers are SS3 are.

Ultra Instinct does seem to be around 4 times SSBKKx20 as well based on Vegeta's new form, but again, I went low to be safe.

Again, this is the lowball estimates, so IMO this would be the minimum of the power levels that the characters are operating on. Still pretty high though. no expression


I also probably screwed up an estimate somewhere using my own guidelines as well. Probably point that out.

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by One Big Mob
Gohan had a decent fight with Goku while both were impressed with each other.
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And no, Gohan would have had to get over 11 thousand times stronger to compete with base Goku from RoF. Keep in mind Goku got more powerful to the U6 tourney, and then he apparently got 20 times more powerful when he stalemated Assassin Hit after the Black series. Which means Gohan would have at least had to get 200 000 times stronger to even hope to challenge a holding back Goku.
And this was before Gohan even trained to unlock his Mystic form, which I believe was said that he wasn't even as powerful as anymore. Goku in the meantime was fighting everything.



It's not wildly inconsistent enough to exist in other forms though. It was originally intended to be his base, but as we saw later God ki was only in his actual God forms.
Also the Buu fight could be as simple as him being incredibly skilled. A couple examples do not override the overwhelming examples though. Goku's base being that strong is largely gone outside a few cases. He has much more examples of having trouble with these feebs than being over SS3 level.



It is though. Which is why you won't even pretend to talk about the implications.



It's not clear at all. Everytime he uses Godly Ki it's shown as a transformation or a very quick one.
Plus how does that even change anything in my argument anyway? So he can use Godly ki and then overlap a 400 times boost on top of that? And we assume SSG is still an amp so that amps him even further? I realize you're making this up so you can ignore every other feat but him looking incredible in base but it still flows into my issues with this scaling.
It still means all of my problems with the scaling are accurate, but you cover your ass by saying that I can bring up nothing Goku does to say he isn't that powerful because he's using his never before stated, no indication Godly Ki to secretly amp his forms.


He punched apart the combination of all the power he could use as a SS and Beerus' power in base form in BoG. His base form was God level or became it. And I didn't say SSG was a 10 times boost to SS3 or even come close to saying that. I said SSG was at least a ten times boost to SSONE, since SS3 is an 8 times boost. Actually this whole number 5 section of yours proves you don't understand what I said at all.
Look, even you said SSG can still amp him and is greater than SS3. You also think that even with already using Godly energy, SS3 can amp him 400 times on top of that. Which using my scaling, SSG would still be a 500 times amp from his base, so... I don't even think you know what I'm saying.


6. Look let's shift it to exactly what you're saying and give it very small amounts so you can stop getting completely confused.
If we use your scaling and your words, that means SS1 Goku from RoF = SSG from BoG. That means that SS3 would beat 8 times stronger than SSG from BoG. Using my scaling of lowball estimates, that would mean that SSG from RoF would be ten times stronger than SSG from BoG. That would mean that noob SSBlue is 20 times stronger than SSG from BoG.
That is directly from what your words are saying.
My problem is that I don't think Goku's multipliers were actually considered while he was actually God level at base, otherwise you have at the minimum stupid shit like this. There's no ****ing way Frieza was considered over 20 times more powerful than BoG Goku. We've already seen Beerus get retconned a ton, why is it so hard to believe that Goku's base got retconned as well when nothing supports him keeping this base level outside few and far between showings, and you have to invent an invisible never said powerup to make sense of it.

Yes, him adding Godly ki would make everything fit together better. I never said otherwise. The issue is that was not said to be the case where he could add bits and pieces to every transformation.



And no, I'm not saying it didn't make every form better. Actually read my post. I'm saying that this God Form base went away the second transormation multipliers stuck around. If it stuck around it makes a mess of everything.
Because Goku's base form could reach SSG levels from BoG... in BoG too. Invisible divine Ki powerup or not. That leads us to Goku getting at least 1000 times more powerful in RoF if we factor in multipliers.
As you already said, his forms still amp him the correct amount even with the off panel divine Ki boosts. That means again, not sure why I have to spell it out, that SS3 is 400 times more powerful than SSG from BoG. And because you might not still know what I'm saying, I'll make a little chart.


If the multiplers are still in effect factoring in the secret divine ki, this is what we get. Left side is RoF. Right side is Bog. This ignores training and that stuff and only factors in multipliers.
Do you see what my problem is now? The series already has massive issues with scaling (if you double Goku's power every saga he already becomes thousands of times more powerful than BoG Twink God). If we factor in his base being God form it goes completely overboard... in the next saga.

It got retconned away is what I'm saying. He'll still get good feats in base as he did get more powerful and also inconsistent writing, but it isn't the norm anymore. It however was intended to be his base in the movies and SS forms were being done away. Unfortunately he changed his mind to give losers like Gohan a chance to be relevant.

Holy ****, that is a LOT of words for you to not add a SINGLE substantial argument to the conversation.

1. Yes, base Gohan would have to become over 11,000 times stronger to be on par with the level of base form Goku. It's no surprise that the gap between the two is outrageously vast at this point. Even in the ToP, Gohan isn't even comparable to the likes of Goku. One instance of Goku and Gohan joke-sparring isn't enough evidence to somehow suggest that Gohan ~ Goku, when Goku in base toyed with an enemy that oneshot SSJ1 Gohan laughing

2. Everything you're saying is based on assumptions, and the implication that Toriyama retconned Goku being able to use Godly ki in base form, lmao. Even IF Goku can't use Godly ki in any other form, his feats still CLEARLY show that he's far beyond his DBZ SSJ3 counterpart, even in base form. He fought on par with an amped fat Buu in base form, fought on par with Beerus as a SSJ1, managed to overpower a black hole easily in base form(while Androids 17 and 18 were unable to even stand), easily dominated Zamasu as a SSJ1(or maybe SSJ2, who was stronger than all the Supreme Kai's put together), and uh, let's not forget that BASE GOKU TANKED Sidra's hakaishin energy, which Golden Frieza struggled with(and should have been strong enough to erase 4th form Frieza).

Goku plays around with other characters while holding back, to make it more of a challenge and to make it more fair for the person he's fighting. Beerus even said he was overly dramatic when he's fighting.

3. It was outright stated by Beerus that Goku absorbed godly ki into his base form. Every other piece of the swath of dreck you just typed out was either totally incoherent, or outright facetious. The feats are clearly on my side, as shown above. thumb up

4. Maybe I would understand what you're arguing, if you understood what you're arguing. Half of your post is indecipherable, a quarter of it piggy-backs on your misunderstanding of Galan's posts, and the other quarter is sheer make-believe. I understand you're trying, but ffs, try harder.

5. "He punched apart the combination of all the power he could use as a SS and Beerus' power in base form in BoG. His base form was God level or became it."

Am, I misreading this quote, or did you just blatantly agree with me, and then call me an idiot for stating the thing you agree with in the first place? confused

6. I never said any of the shit you just claimed I said. Stop putting words in my posts to make yourself seem more justified, you neanderthal.

As a matter of fact, I believe that base Goku from RoF was on a level approaching his SSJG form from BoG's. His SSJG form would conversely be MUCH stronger. I deduced this belief from a variety of facts, statements, and feats from the series. Do I think 4th Form Frieza was 20X more powerful than SSJG BoG's Goku? Uh, no, and I never even implied that to be the case. You're making shit up. Do I believe Golden Frieza from RoF was VASTLY stronger than BoG's SSJG Goku? IN FACT, I KNOW THAT TO BE THE CASE. As Galan pointed out, it was stated by Whis that SSJB was a 10X boost to SSJG. RoF Goku in base form was VASTLY stronger than his BoG's SSJ3 counterpart, and approaching his n00b SSJG level from BoG's.

THEREFOR: Golden Frieza >= SSJB Goku = RoF SSJG Goku x10 >>>>> RoF base Goku > RoF 4th form Frieza = RoF 1st form Frieza x226 > SSJ1 RoF Gohan

What is it that you're not understanding here? You're literally arguing against facts, with statements like, "I don't think that's true". Just like with flat-Earth'ers, not believing in FACTS doesn't make them untrue, lmfao.

7. What you're saying makes no sense. Why are you suggesting that Gohan is still relevant to a serious Goku? Even if Goku couldn't use godly ki in his other forms, and even if he was still Gohan level in SSJ1, Goku still has about 5 forms above Gohan. Gohan is NOWHERE NEAR THE LEVEL OF GOKU. Just because Goku decided to have a little spar with his son to play around and toy with him a bit, doesn't mean that Gohan is somehow on par with Goku, lmfao.

Nothing you have claimed makes any difference to my argument. You're just denying it, and acting like you're right, and I'm somehow the idiot, lol. thumb down

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by One Big Mob
I'm going to assume some things.

Stopped reading. thumb down

One Big Mob
I'll use Galan's post as a higher point now. No power levels though. He said SSG could be 50 times SS3, and Blue could be ten times as powerful as Red. I will also make UI 4 times as powerful as SSBKKx20. I will still keep MUI twice as powerful though, even though that also seems to be a double. I will still however be doubling everything, and keeping the same power increases.

What this would look like is
SS3 = 400 times base
SSG = 20 000 times base/50 SS3
SSB = 200 000 times base/500 SS3/10 SSG
SSBKKx20 = 4 million times base/10 000 SS3/1000 SSG
Ultra Instinct = 16 million times base/40 000 SS3/4000 SSG
Mastered Ultra Instinct = 32 million times base/80 000 SS3/8000 SSG



------------------------



My baseline will be SS3 here. Again, everything will double except where otherwise stated


Battle of Gods SSG = 50 SS3
RoF SSB = 1000 SS3/20 SSG
U6 Tourney SSB = 2000 SS3/40 SSG
U6 SSBKKx20 = 40 000 SS3/800 SSG
End of Black/Start of ToP Blue = 40 000 SS3/800 SSG
EoB/Start of ToP SSBKKx20 = 800 000 SS3/16 000 SSG
Ultra Instinct Start of ToP = 3.2 million SS3/64 000 SSG
End of ToP SSB = 80 000 SS3/1600 SSG
End of ToP SSBKKx20 = 3.2 million SS3/64 000 SSG
End of ToP Ultra Instinct = 12.8 million SS3/256 000 SSG

Mastered Ultra Instinct = 25.6 million SS3/512 000 SSG


no expression

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by Galan007
You're not understanding.

The entire crux of mine and bran's argument is that Goku's standard SSJ forms being 'hyper-God-amped' is probably one of the single most inconsistent plot-points in DBS. Sometimes his standard forms appear to be God-amped, but more times than not, they don't appear to be anymore powerful than normal(the first scene I posted all but spells this out.) And again: Goku only generates Godly ki when he accesses SSG and upward -- his base-SSJ3 forms generate 'normal' ki exclusively(the second scene I posted all but spells this out as well.)

Please don't make this more than it is... Again.

Okay, well that's something to work with. While you can go around and talk about how inconsistent the series is all you want, I'm pointing out the fact that at his ABSOLUTE MAX, base Goku in RoF is clearly WELL beyond his SSJ3 DBZ counterpart, and you can easily calculate him to be above even the likes of Buutenks, as I've posted multiple times already.

I'm not interested in inconsistencies, which can easily be chalked up to CIS on Goku's part. Beerus and many others have stated in the past that Goku is very dramatic when he fights- which makes sense, given that he loves to fight. We're arguing DBS vs. GT here- and let's be honest, both are probably some of the most inconsistent anime's in existence at this point. SSJ4 Goku was cut by glass, and burned by lava, yet his base form towards the end was capable of tanking attacks from a universe buster(Omega Shenron). Arguing all the inconsistencies would be tedious at best, and most definitely a frivolous waste of time.

Also, I don't really care about the godly ki in other forms- it has no real purpose in this discussion.

You still haven't pointed out where I over-inflated any numbers in my calc btw. Should I take that as your concession of the point?

One Big Mob
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Holy ****, that is a LOT of words for you to not add a SINGLE substantial argument to the conversation. OK. You're not going to like what comes next then. smile

I await the incoming tirades of how stupid I am and how I'm not understanding.



Now, let me try to make you understand what I'm saying before I get into my post

You think Base Goku was around BoG Goku's SSG form:

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
As a matter of fact, I believe that base Goku from RoF was on a level approaching his SSJG form from BoG's. His SSJG form would conversely be MUCH stronger. I deduced this belief from a variety of facts, statements, and feats from the series.


You think Base Goku from RoF can then, amp 400 times on top of this power:

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Honestly, that feat alone still puts base RoF Goku well over 30 times more powerful than SSJ3 DBZ Goku. Now multiply that by 400, and you get SSJ3 RoF Goku, which would be at least around 800 times stronger than even Buutenks from DBZ. This would put SSJ3 RoF Goku around 12,800 times more powerful than SSJ3 DBZ Goku.

Then keep in mind that SSJB could easily be hundreds of times(if not more) powerful than SSJ3 Goku, and that Goku got multiple dozens of times stronger from that point, till the ToP, to the point he's at now where he's above a GoD.



What these two things combined mean, is that if RoF Goku went SS3, he would be 400 times BoG Super Saiyan God Goku.

These are the numbers you keep saying I'm putting into your post. That is why I keep saying "1000" times, because that is the bare minimum that Goku's noob Super Saiyan Blue form would be above Goku's Super Saiyan God form from BoG. His RoF Super Saiyan God form would be at the minimum 500 times his BoG Super Saiyan God form.

That is what the numbers mean. That is why I keep saying it. Please understand this. Whether you agree or disagree just please, understand this.




Now what I'm saying, is that the wild inconsistency of Super makes this doubtful to accept as the norm. I'm not saying this was not the case. I'm saying that it got passed over in favor of writing a story and giving everyone else a chance. You have to literally make up invisible forms for Goku's base being equal to BoG SSG Goku to make sense for the rest of the story. Yes Goku might get some decent feats in Base, but it doesn't mean this is the norm, no, rather the exception.

If Goku gets 100 shitty feats in base, but gets one good feat in base, why should we choose to accept his good feat as his true power? It might not mean a retcon per se, but it does leave a lot of doubt to take this as is. The same type of shit happens in comics all the time.


I'd love for Goku to be that strong in base as the accepted fact. I'm not saying he wasn't, I'm saying he isn't anymore on average, or even close to average. This is why I keep showing you what the end result of your points are (RoF base equals God) because it means Goku's power shot up at least a thousand times in one arc. And that's just not what happened. The SS multipliers got ignored, and once they were implemented again, it largely got his base back to normal.

I have a feeling this is going to fall on deaf ears. Anyway, here's the rest of your post:

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
1. Yes, base Gohan would have to become over 11,000 times stronger to be on par with the level of base form Goku. It's no surprise that the gap between the two is outrageously vast at this point. Even in the ToP, Gohan isn't even comparable to the likes of Goku. One instance of Goku and Gohan joke-sparring isn't enough evidence to somehow suggest that Gohan ~ Goku, when Goku in base toyed with an enemy that oneshot SSJ1 Gohan laughing I realize Gohan isn't as powerful as Goku. However, he was able to give a decent fight to Goku. Gohan would have had to increase his base 11 thousand times to match RoF Goku. This was Goku who got even more powerful. If Gohan didn't get more powerful, Goku would have had to have been using literal minuscule amounts of power to make Gohan have done that well.

Either Gohan got 11 thousand times more powerful, Goku was using 0.01 percent of his power, or the show is wildly inconsistent and it forgot that Goku was intended to be this far above Gohan. One of those is likely. The other two are very far fetched. Hence why I keep saying "retcon" or "wildly inconsistent"

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
2. Everything you're saying is based on assumptions, and the implication that Toriyama retconned Goku being able to use Godly ki in base form, lmao. Even IF Goku can't use Godly ki in any other form, his feats still CLEARLY show that he's far beyond his DBZ SSJ3 counterpart, even in base form. He fought on par with an amped fat Buu in base form, fought on par with Beerus as a SSJ1, managed to overpower a black hole easily in base form(while Androids 17 and 18 were unable to even stand), easily dominated Zamasu as a SSJ1(or maybe SSJ2, who was stronger than all the Supreme Kai's put together), and uh, let's not forget that BASE GOKU TANKED Sidra's hakaishin energy, which Golden Frieza struggled with(and should have been strong enough to erase 4th form Frieza).

Goku plays around with other characters while holding back, to make it more of a challenge and to make it more fair for the person he's fighting. Beerus even said he was overly dramatic when he's fighting.

3. It was outright stated by Beerus that Goku absorbed godly ki into his base form. Every other piece of the swath of dreck you just typed out was either totally incoherent, or outright facetious. The feats are clearly on my side, as shown above. thumb up His feats clearly show this even though you're using a very small handful of feats? I don't get the correlation there. What about every other fight he's had?

The Beerus fight was when he was still considered/what it stemmed from, so we don't need to answer that. I have no intention to show he wasn't at that level at the time. My whole argument is that this has changed, so I don't even know why you brought that up. Not to mention, you're laughing at the idea of retcons while using Beerus as an example. The character who has had his power retconned to hell and back this show. First he was using all his power against Goku. Then a handful of Gods are above him. Then only the strongest GoD might be equal to him. Then he was using 70 percent of his power. Then he was using all his power while sleeping to hit base Goku/Vegeta with. Then Goku/Vegeta teamed up can beat him. Then we get the implication that Goku with Blue KKx20 could maybe defeat him. Then Vegito Blue might be above him. Then Ultra Instinct is above him. Then Jiren is above him. Then Vegeta Blue2 can overpower Gods, and might be above him. Then Jiren powering up to max might be above him. Then MUI might be above him.
Now we don't even know for sure. If you want to overrule the talk of retcons, probably don't bring up Beerus examples. Especially when he was canonically using point zero zero percentage of his power against SS1 Goku now... something that I mocked up above with Goku who doesn't have such a ridiculous control of his power.

The Buu fight is good though. Again, that inconsistency rears its head. That arc he also had to go Blue against Krillin, Gohan, Android 17. Also you keep speaking of Goku holding back even when he uses new forms, but why would Buu be going all out in this instance anyway?


And Android 17 is apparently Blue level. Why would you bring this up in an argument of consistency when Android 17 is many times over more powerful than Goku? You're not exactly helping the case there.


Zamasu at that point in time had no feats to say he was or wasn't anything special. All we know is he was weaker than SS2 Goku. That's literally all you can use to scale him off of. Future Zamasu in the anime was Blue-ish level though, but not the Zamasu Goku initially fought. Zamasu in the Manga was SS2 Trunks level though as well.


The energy thing was also inconsistent as well. Not sure why you'd bring up Frieza's plight to try and make a point though when he was exactly equal to Goku's blue form there.
That being said, Goku was completely trapped, and Frieza overpowered it and nulled it. And it was just a tiny bit of destruction energy.



That doesn't mean Goku is holding back to tiny percentages in that form though. That means Goku isn'g going all out. That doesn't mean Goku is using 1 percent of his power. That could also mean the man with 7 forms isn't using the best one as well. I don't know why you think this means he is not using God energy in that form.



I know he said that. What he didn't say however is that you can apply this in varying amounts to everyone of his forms. The initial belief of this was that it just amped everything without Goku trying. Not that he has secret God Ki he can apply like KK to everyone of his forms. That was never stated. Ever.

One Big Mob
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
4. Maybe I would understand what you're arguing, if you understood what you're arguing. Half of your post is indecipherable, a quarter of it piggy-backs on your misunderstanding of Galan's posts, and the other quarter is sheer make-believe. I understand you're trying, but ffs, try harder. You literally do not understand what I'm saying in the least though. Your very next post says as such:

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
5. "He punched apart the combination of all the power he could use as a SS and Beerus' power in base form in BoG. His base form was God level or became it."

Am, I misreading this quote, or did you just blatantly agree with me, and then call me an idiot for stating the thing you agree with in the first place? confused You're not misreading because this is the first time you actually read what I said. I'm not arguing that Goku was or was not at that level during that time. I said it in my last post that he was God level during BoG. In fact I think I've said it every single post in this thread in retort to you. This is why you keep having issues with it because you literally are not reading anything I'm saying to the capacity needed to understand, and I really don't know how to make it any clearer.
For example:
Originally posted by One Big Mob
The problem is is that you're scaling from base Goku in that movie when he was supposed to be around God level as base at that point in time. As we have seen things have changed and Frieza has as well. Originally posted by One Big Mob
Except Goku and Frieza have lost this massive powerup as their base forms. Goku used to be far above ss3 Gotenks in base

As we saw in BoG his base was intended to be God level, which would make it Twink level. SS3 was not an upgrade from that. But it was retconned.

What you're saying is that BoG was his default in power while he still retained all his multipliers and Blue and Red were far above this.
Originally posted by One Big Mob
Goku's base at that time was said to be at or near his BoG God form. Since he absorbed and maintained that level after it wore off.

So if his base is at BoG levels and he still maintains the SS forms while you yourself have said God and Blue are far better than SS3 which you say is a 400 times boost to RoF...


If this is honestly the first time you think I've said he was BoG level at base, then you do not have the capacity to actually read.


This entire issue arises from that. I understand his Base level was not just above SS3, but equal to his Super Saiyan God level instead. My argument is that changed. Based on every single fight outside one or two in Super. Your argument is that he is using secret God Ki, which was never stated. Both of our arguments are based on an interpretation of the events. Mine however has more proof than yours.

Plus your last post was assuming me for whatever reason was keep SSG form the same strength. I don't even know tbh.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
6. I never said any of the shit you just claimed I said. Stop putting words in my posts to make yourself seem more justified, you neanderthal. Uh, but you did though.
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
but clearly Goku went from fighting somewhat around Beerus' level as a SSJG, to fighting just as well with him as a SSJ1.
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
5. "He punched apart the combination of all the power he could use as a SS and Beerus' power in base form in BoG. His base form was God level or became it."

Am, I misreading this quote, or did you just blatantly agree with me, and then call me an idiot for stating the thing you agree with in the first place? confused



And your entire argument is that he can only amp on top of that. I understand you're only trying to make him out to be above SS3, but your argument has indirectly flowed into showing him equal to BoG SSG multiple times, both in base, and in SS1. And considering you're arguing that he can amp on top of that, the implications of your argument mean that he can amp many times over his initial Super Saiyan God form. I really don't understand why this is so hard for you to understand.


The first sentence in your next paragraph literally says this:

"As a matter of fact, I believe that base Goku from RoF was on a level approaching his SSJG form from BoG's. His SSJG form would conversely be MUCH stronger. I deduced this belief from a variety of facts, statements, and feats from the series."

And your whole argument is that he can amp on top of this hundreds of times. I understand this isn't your intention, which I will address next point, but you have to understand what you're actually saying. You are really not making your case very good to say the least. Get that rage out of your eyes and actually think about this.


Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
As a matter of fact, I believe that base Goku from RoF was on a level approaching his SSJG form from BoG's. His SSJG form would conversely be MUCH stronger. I deduced this belief from a variety of facts, statements, and feats from the series. Do I think 4th Form Frieza was 20X more powerful than SSJG BoG's Goku? Uh, no, and I never even implied that to be the case. You're making shit up. Do I believe Golden Frieza from RoF was VASTLY stronger than BoG's SSJG Goku? IN FACT, I KNOW THAT TO BE THE CASE. As Galan pointed out, it was stated by Whis that SSJB was a 10X boost to SSJG. RoF Goku in base form was VASTLY stronger than his BoG's SSJ3 counterpart, and approaching his n00b SSJG level from BoG's.

THEREFOR: Golden Frieza >= SSJB Goku = RoF SSJG Goku x10 >>>>> RoF base Goku > RoF 4th form Frieza = RoF 1st form Frieza x226 > SSJ1 RoF Gohan I never said you said 4th Form Frieza was 20 times more powerful. This isn't hard.

Your larger text literally agrees with everything I've been saying too. And then you argue against it.

Look. think about your words, and actually read what I'm saying. You're saying I'm putting words in your mouth when you literally agree... in the same post.

If base Goku = SSG from BoG, and his multipliers are taken into effect, that means he is at least 1000 times stronger in Blue Form. You are saying this outright, but yet still disagreeing. Pick a stance. I don't know how to make this any clearer.


And to just say it just to say it. RoF 4th Form Frieza would be equal or lesser than RoF Base Goku who you admitted was around BoG Super Saiyan God form.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
What is it that you're not understanding here? You're literally arguing against facts, with statements like, "I don't think that's true". Just like with flat-Earth'ers, not believing in FACTS doesn't make them untrue, lmfao. What is it you're not understanding? You're disagreeing with me and then repeating the same thing in the next sentence. You're as wildly inconsistent as Goku is. And to top it all off, you're getting mad and calling names just because you don't understand the point. I will try to explain it at the end... again.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
7. What you're saying makes no sense. Why are you suggesting that Gohan is still relevant to a serious Goku? Even if Goku couldn't use godly ki in his other forms, and even if he was still Gohan level in SSJ1, Goku still has about 5 forms above Gohan. Gohan is NOWHERE NEAR THE LEVEL OF GOKU. Just because Goku decided to have a little spar with his son to play around and toy with him a bit, doesn't mean that Gohan is somehow on par with Goku, lmfao.

Nothing you have claimed makes any difference to my argument. You're just denying it, and acting like you're right, and I'm somehow the idiot, lol. thumb down I never said you're the idiot. You gotta calm down in debates though. I have no idea why you're raging when I'm being very civil. Read what I'm actually saying instead of what you think I am.

That being said, I didn't say Gohan was as powerful as Goku's other forms... I don't even know how you got to that point. I said Gohan was giving Goku a good fight in an equal form when their power levels would have to be around the same in base. I never said Gohan could compete with Goku in a higher form... I don't even know how that thought entered your mind. I said Gohan gave Goku a decent fight is all. Goku was 11 thousand times stronger than him in base. And all Goku has been doing is training.
I'm pointing out how wildly inconsistent Super has been. I'm reinforcing why things like this don't make sense.

One Big Mob
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Stopped reading. thumb down You really should read them, but if you don't, that's fine too. It wasn't directed at you anyway.

I don't know why you think just because someone IYO said something stupid, that they can't have merit somewhere else though. If you'd actually read the post, you'd find that at the minimum DBS scales into ridiculousness., and at the maximum, or following what Galan said, it scales into pure chaos.

Which was another of my points. DBS scales retardedly enough. It doesn't exactly need to scale off of SSG being the base to beat GT. Which is what you want, no? To beat GT?

If SSG was the base level in Super, it gets even worse. It just hasn't been written near consistent enough for that to be the case. It's really not that hard to admit.

One Big Mob
Originally posted by One Big Mob
I'll use Galan's post as a higher point now. No power levels though. He said SSG could be 50 times SS3, and Blue could be ten times as powerful as Red. I will also make UI 4 times as powerful as SSBKKx20. I will still keep MUI twice as powerful though, even though that also seems to be a double. I will still however be doubling everything, and keeping the same power increases.

What this would look like is
SS3 = 400 times base
SSG = 20 000 times base/50 SS3
SSB = 200 000 times base/500 SS3/10 SSG
SSBKKx20 = 4 million times base/10 000 SS3/1000 SSG
Ultra Instinct = 16 million times base/40 000 SS3/4000 SSG
Mastered Ultra Instinct = 32 million times base/80 000 SS3/8000 SSG ****ed up here. Wrote post too fast, and never reread.

I didn't screw up the second part I think though so it doesn't make a difference, but yeah. Took one glance at this and caught it... way too late. I started eating pie on this post is all I can say to excuse myself. Also I meant to say MUI seems like a quad amp too, but I'd keep it double just because.

Should be off the top of my head

SS3 = 400 times base
SSG = 20 000 times base/50 SS3
SSB = 200 000 times base/500 SS3/10 SSG
SSBKKx20 = 4 million times base/10 000 SS3/200 SSG
Ultra Instinct = 16 million times base/40 000 SS3/800 SSG
Mastered Ultra Instinct = 32 million times base/80 000 SS3/1600 SSG



I screwed up the multipliers in the first post too. I'll go through that tomorrow. laughing out loud

Also I probably could have went more in depth with these, but it turned out easier than I thought for both posts, and didn't want to push it. Turned out pretty basic and simple. It wouldn't be too hard to fit characters in here if I wanted.

One Big Mob
Good thing my dog is in the way so I can fix both posts. I probably still made a mistake though since I'm tired. But I fixed the glaringly off parts. I'll just post a better version in one post.



Going by how every transformation has been at least double in DBZ/Super I will only be going by doubling the last transformation unless otherwise stated.
For example:

Oozaru = 10 times base
Kaio-Ken = 2 times to 20 times
Super Saiyan = 50 times base
Super Saiyan 2 = 100 times base/2 times Super Saiyan 1
Super Saiyan 3 = 400 times base/4 times Super Saiyan 2/8 times Super Saiyan 1


These are established multipliers. Now I go into assumption. As we see, everything is at least twice the last form. So I will use that low estimate to assume what the Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue multipliers are. As well as UI and MUI. Again, low estimate.


Super Saiyan God = 800 times base/2 times Super Saiyan 3/16 times Super Saiyan 1
Super Saiyan Blue = 1600 times base/2 times Super Saiyan God/32 times Super Saiyan
Super Saiyan Blue Kaio-Ken times 20 = 32000 times base/20 times Super Saiyan Blue/40 times Super Saiyan God/640 times Super Saiyan 1
Ultra Instinct = 64000 times base/2 times Super Saiyan KKx20/80 times Super Saiyan God/1280 times Super Saiyan 1
Mastered Ultra Instinct = 128 000 times base/2 times Ultra Instinct/80 times Super Saiyan Blue/160 times Super Saiyan God/2560 times Super Saiyan 1



------------------



So I think that's fair. That is the multipliers I'm going with. So next, I am going to go through the Sagas. As with what we've seen in DBZ, the characters seem to get at least twice as powerful as they were the last saga. So I think 2 times is a fair assumption going saga to saga.

I will be ignoring the lesser forms of Super Saiyan, as well as Goku's base form. After the Black Saga Goku stalemated full assassin Hit, so that will be our baseline for the start of the Tournament of Power. The end of Tournament of Power, I will be assuming Goku doubled in power, which is backed up by the fact that his SSBlueKKx20 did about as well as his Ultra Instinct did.


Super Saiyan God in Battle of The Gods will be my baseline in this one.
Super Saiyan Blue will represent Goku's power when he fought Frieza.


Battle of the Gods = 1 SSG
Resurrection of F Super Saiyan God = 2 SSG
Resurrection of F Super Saiyan Blue = 4 SSG
Universe 6 Tournament SSB = 8 SSG/2 Super Saiyan Blue
Universe 6 Super Saiyan BlueKKx20 = 160 SSG/40 Super Saiyan Blue
End of Black Saga/Start of ToP SSB = 160 SSG/40 Super Saiyan Blue
EoB/Start of ToP SSBlue KKx20 = 3200 SSG/800 Super Saiyan Blue
EoB/Start of ToP Ultra Instinct = 6400 SSG/1600 Super Saiyan Blue
End of ToP SSB = 320 SSG/80 Super Saiyan Blue
End of ToP KKBluex20 = 6400 SSG/1600 Super Saiyan Blue
End of ToP Ultra Instinct = 12800 SSG/3200 Super Saiyan Blue

Mastered Ultra Instinct = 25600 SSG/6400 Super Saiyan Blue




I'm not sure if I'd put Goku's SSB at the End of ToP on his first Ultra Instinct level, but if we do that it becomes:

End of ToP SSB = 6400 SSG/1600 Super Saiyan Blue
EoToP SSBKKx20 = 128 000 SSG/32000 Super Saiyan Blue
EoToP Ultra Instinct = 256 000 SSG/64000 Super Saiyan Blue

Mastered Ultra Instinct = 512 000 SSG/128 000 Super Saiyan Blue



------------------



Next we'll move onto Power Levels. For this purpose, I'll make Goku at 100 million. Beerus said Goku couldn't beat Frieza at his base form, yet he shouldn't have been far off. 100 million makes him within reason of Frieza's power level, but still below it. It seems like a fair number to base it off of. BoG again, will be our baseline

BoG
Base = 100 million
SS = 5 billion
SS2 = 10 billion
SS3 = 40 Billion
SSG = 80 billion


RoF
Base = 200 million
SS = 10 billion
SS2 = 20 billion
SS3 = 80 billion
SSG = 160 billion
SSB = 320 billion


Universe 6 Tournament
Base = 400 million
SS = 20 billion
SS2 = 40 billion
SS3 = 160 billion
SSG = 320 billion
SSB = 640 billion
SSBKKx20 = 12.8 trillion


End of Black saga/Start of ToP
Base = 8 billion
SS = 400 billion
SS2 = 800 billion
SS3 = 3.2 trillion
SSG = 6.4 trillion
SSB = 12.8 trillion
SSBKKx20 = 256 trillion
Ultra Instinct = 512 trillion


End of ToP
Base = 16 billion
SS = 800 billion
SS2 = 1.6 trillion
SS3 = 6.4 trillion
SSG = 12.8 trillion
SSB = 25.6 trillion
SSBKKx20 = 512 trillion
Ultra Instinct = 1.024 Quadrillion
Mastered Ultra Instinct = 2.048 Quadrillion



I'm not doing power levels on if Goku went to UI at the end of ToP in his Blue form though.



------------------



I'll use Galan's post as a higher point now. No power levels though. He said SSG could be 50 times SS3, and Blue could be ten times as powerful as Red. I will also make UI 4 times as powerful as SSBKKx20. I will still keep MUI twice as powerful though, even though that also seems to be a quadruple too. I will still however be doubling everything, and keeping the same power increases.

Keep in mind Goku was more powerful than everyone else in SS3 by Battle of the Gods. Likely at least 1.5 times more powerful, or maybe even twice as powerful. Anyone else can figure that out though.


SS3 = 400 times base
SSG = 20 000 times base/50 SS3
SSB = 200 000 times base/500 SS3/10 SSG
SSBKKx20 = 4 million times base/10 000 SS3/200 SSG
Ultra Instinct = 16 million times base/40 000 SS3/800 SSG
Mastered Ultra Instinct = 32 million times base/80 000 SS3/1600 SSG



My baseline will be SS3 here. Again, everything will double except where otherwise stated

SS3 is SS3 Goku from BoG
SSG is SSG from BoG

Battle of Gods SSG = 50 SS3
RoF SSB = 1000 SS3/20 SSG
U6 Tourney SSB = 2000 SS3/40 SSG
U6 SSBKKx20 = 40 000 SS3/800 SSG
End of Black/Start of ToP Blue = 40 000 SS3/800 SSG
EoB/Start of ToP SSBKKx20 = 800 000 SS3/16 000 SSG
Ultra Instinct Start of ToP = 3.2 million SS3/64 000 SSG
End of ToP SSB = 80 000 SS3/1600 SSG
End of ToP SSBKKx20 = 3.2 million SS3/64 000 SSG
End of ToP Ultra Instinct = 12.8 million SS3/256 000 SSG

Mastered Ultra Instinct = 25.6 million SS3/512 000 SSG




If we assume Goku became Ultra Instinct level at the end of ToP in his Blue form:

EoToP SSBlue = 3.2 million SS3/64 000 SSG
EoToP SSBKKx20 = 64 million SS3/1.28 million SSG
EoToP Ultra Instinct = 256 million SS3/5.12 million SSG

Master Ultra Instinct = 512 million SS3/10.24 million SSG



------------------



So yeah. I don't think the Manga will have that sort of scaling. KKx20 really throws it out of proportion. And that second Hit fight benefits Goku greatly, which is something the Manga lacked.

The actual statements and assuming astronomical amps make it go from ridiculous to completely off the walls though. Beerus was evidently using barely any power. laughing out loud

bbrem123
Wasn't Start of ToP SSB KKx20 < End of ToP SSB? I mean hell, end of ToP SSB was stronger that first appearance noob UI.

One Big Mob
SSB EoToP did decent, but I'm not sure I'd put him on that level. Jiren was kind of screwing around with him. Regardless, I added him on that level just to see what that'd look like.

We know SSBKKx20 did as good as noob UI though, so it feels a lot safer to put him on that level.


What Goku's random powerups mean is that Vegeta walked into that tournament way higher than anyone else on the team. Imagine if he was getting up from getting completely drained multiple times.

SSJGGogeta
I'm totally done arguing this. Literally every single post you've made is in outright denial of feats performed by characters in the show, statements made about the characters, and multipliers accepted as canon. You're clearly too stubborn to listen to reason at this point, so it's not even worth it anymore.

Regardless, the multipliers I posted are all accurate, and at LEAST supported by source material. No one has posted anything to refute what I've said, and has only blatantly denied it out of sheer unwillingness to accept it.

I'm disappointed in you all.

StiltmanFTW
You're not done, Galan wants you in his bedroom.

Go back there and finish him off, Gogeta.

Sj_Sharp
Galan is right regarding the multipliers in DBZ: a 2x gap was more than enough to effortlessly stomp the opponent.

But this is also the main argument which makes DBS Goku so much, much stronger than before. Think about SSB KKx20 for a moment: the gap between SSB KKx20 and SSB is much larger than the boosts that Ssj2 and Ssj3 used to give, COMBINED.

Just by going KKx20 on top of Blue Goku gets a power boost which basically shits all over half or more of DBZ, as doing so he increases his power (in terms of multiplier) much more than what he did over the course of the Cell and Boo sagas, once again COMBINED.

SSB KKx20 Goku is 2.5 times stronger than a hypothetical SSB3 Goku. Let it sink in for a moment.

DBS powerscaling is pure madness, but in its craziness, it somewhow explains and justifies Goku going in raw power from being multi-solar system level as Ssj3 during the Boo saga to universal as SSB KKx20.

And don't let me even start with UI: just each time he unlocked UI Omen he was implied to become stronger than before, and that happened 3 times.
And then, finally, there is MUI, whose power boost made 3rd time-unlocked UI Omen Goku's level look like child's play...

One Big Mob
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
I'm totally done arguing this. Literally every single post you've made is in outright denial of feats performed by characters in the show, statements made about the characters, and multipliers accepted as canon. You're clearly too stubborn to listen to reason at this point, so it's not even worth it anymore.

Regardless, the multipliers I posted are all accurate, and at LEAST supported by source material. No one has posted anything to refute what I've said, and has only blatantly denied it out of sheer unwillingness to accept it.

I'm disappointed in you all. Yes I'm denying events happened. And the multipliers are obviously a foreign concept to me.

I was just trying to show you what your argument leads into, and that is that if the SS multipliers were still carefully thought out - while you yourself admit he was SSG level at base and he could amp hundreds of times on top of it - it means Goku got at least a thousand times more powerful at the absolute least within one saga. It means that Goku's SSG was 500 times more powerful within one saga at the very least.

I just want you to be aware of that, yet you keep acting like "Where is this coming from, I don't understand why you'd say this!"

DBS is inconsistent, and hands out power levels like candy, but I don't think it was that inconsistent is what I'm saying to sum it up as. It's really not that difficult of an argument. Even you admit it was inconsistent enough to a point where you had to pretend God Ki was a secret amp he could apply, and only when he got good feats was he using his max power.
Me and Galan are used to comics where we see this thing almost daily. If it wasn't a retcon, it was a severe outlier and again inconsistent with how they portrayed him after RoF. If something largely goes away, it's not hard to see that the writers wanted to phase this out.


And if you'd actually read my power scaling post at the top there, you'd see I'm not opposed to how powerful he became. It's just that the two movies and arcs based on the movies seemed to follow its own rules and then both the manga and especially the anime diverged from there.


Lol at you being disappointed in us just because we don't think the SS concept was even mildly explored along with the implications along that time.
Also Goku's base leading into ToP was close to his SS2 form in BoG, at the absolute minimum. Which explains why he was able to do well against Buu in base and get decent feats. If he was SSG at base along with all his power upgrades that came with it, he should have wiped Buu out of existence with a flick.

Galan007
^ Most DBS hyper-fans don't want to admit that NO thought whatsoever went into DBS multipliers(especially when the ToP rolled around.) Instead they'd rather try to 'logically' scale the illogical, and expect people to buy the figures they throw around...cuz reasons.

Based on everything I've seen about Toriyama these days, he just gives the most basic plot-points to the Toei animation team, and they fill in the gaps however they want. No joke. I've read a lot of the storyboards Toriyama has written and submitted to Toei(even posted several of them here) -- he only provides the barest of minimums and lets them do the rest.

All Toriyama likely told them is something to the effect of: "I want omen-UI to appear a few times and be way more powerful than SSB. I want Goku to master UI at some point and become the strongest Goku ever. All the while I want Jiren to be super-strong and be able to hang with Goku, because he's Hakaishin-level... Oh, and lets have Vegeta and #17 do some cool shit too!"

...And Toei simply made that happen. But if you think they actually put any conscious/logical thought at all into establishing a strict set of multipliers or w/e, then you're a f*cking idiot. DBS is many things, but 'logical' and 'consistent' are certainly not among them.

Originally posted by bbrem123
Wasn't Start of ToP SSB KKx20 < End of ToP SSB? I mean hell, end of ToP SSB was stronger that first appearance noob UI. Indeed. He was also fighting a much stronger Jiren than n00b/omen-UI did when it first appeared.

And the implications of that are obviously immense, given that a weaker Jiren had effortlessly ragdolled SSB Goku /w/ KKx20 when they first met... Yet a few minutes later in the story, a fatigued SSB Goku(unamped) can now contend with a more powerful Jiren?

...You can't help but laugh at stupidity like that. laughing out loud

Mendax
Hats off to you One Big Mob. I actually read all of your posts here. great stuff. clapclap

One Big Mob
I like you. thumb up

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