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So does every user win in a fight because Vaapad reasons?

I mean, people actually argue that Windu's Vaapad couldn't break Palpatine. So why would Windu everytime win with Vaapad in a versus thread?

B/c who da fuq is stronger than Palpatine?


Also I'm pretty sure Mace's Vaapad was effective at deflecting Sidious's power; the problem was it required intense concentration that was only doable in the circumstances of that fight (Mace's emotions about finding how Sheev orchestrated everything; Windu giving himself up to the force).


The way I think of it, Mace is the mirror deflecting Sidious's power; but Sidious's power is so strong that it was slowly burning a hole through Mace's mirror. I don't think Mace could have continued reflecting that magnitude of power indefinitely.

Originally posted by Kurk
I don't think Mace could have continued reflecting that magnitude of power indefinitely.

The novelization makes it clear that blocking Palpatine's lightning had rendered Mace borderline exhausted:


Had Palpatine kept up that intensity of lightning(instead of putting on a little performance for Anakin), he likely would have overwhelmed Mace's defenses soon thereafter.

So, Windu wins because Vaapad is not applicable.

You are lying to yourself if you think Palpatine has no Sith rivals in the Expanded Universe(feat-wise)

It's not just Vapaad, Mace punched way above his normal weight against Palpatine because the stakes were so high. It was the fight of his life. Just like Ob-Wan did against Anakin on Mustafar, and later when protecting Luke from Maul.

They can't normally access that kind of power.

We see in Son of Dathomir that Talzin is comparable to Sidious in power(and vastly inferior in dueling skill), yet Windu's performance against Talzin was not very good. And his brief fight against Maul(while having Aalya Secura as back-up) is also nothing to write home about. In fact he was knocked on his ass by an RPG that Maul easily dodged.

His performance against Palpatine was once in a lifetime because of the context, and arguably wouldn't have even happened if the B-Team wasn't there as a meat shield, allowing Mace the time to get his shit together.

^Lol

The ROTS novel, imo, makes it pretty clear that Windu did as well as he did against Sidious because of two factors:

1: Vapaad (being the biggest reason)

2: Basically being rage/fear amped, as he was fighting to save the very existence of the Republic, which he loved deeply, he knew that if he failed, there was no chance left for victory over the Sith.

The second point kinda falls in line with real world factors as well, when people are working to save something/someone that they love, adrenaline can kick in and allow for physical acts that are well beyond that person's everyday norm. So Windu was not only amped by Vapaad, but also undergoing what was essentially the Force user duel equivalent of an adrenaline rush.

Originally posted by darthbane77
2: Basically being rage/fear amped,
Please support this claim.
So Yoda was amped vs Sidious? Was Sidious amped vs Yoda? Hell, by this logic, he should be amped vs Mace as well since losing would result in all his machinations being for naught.

Is there a reason you're inventing non existent circumstances and then applying them inconsistently?

Proof is only proof if you can explain how the evidence leads you to arrive to the conclusion you come to.

Why does Mace fighting for the sake of the republic trump Yoda fighting for the sake of the jedi?

Yoda, Mace, and Sidious were all fighting for more than their lives, and you've singled out Mace as the one who receives some sort of amp from this.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Proof is only proof if you can explain how the evidence leads you to arrive to the conclusion you come to.

Why does Mace fighting for the sake of the republic trump Yoda fighting for the sake of the jedi?

Yoda, Mace, and Sidious were all fighting for more than their lives, and you've singled out Mace as the one who receives some sort of amp from this.

I provided the quote. It singularly points out that Windu had a close, personal attachment to the Republic. I'm not saying that Yoda doesn't have an attachment to the Jedi Order, but the fact that the author chose to directly mention Windu's attachment to the Republic implies to me that Windu's love of the Republic is greater than Yoda's feelings for the Jedi Order, and the the threat of the Reublic's fall, the threat of this thing he loved, seemed to be fueling to Windu's strength, maybe it was just contributing to Vapaad, I don't know, that's just what I gathered from reading the quote.

Explained above.

Explained above.

I don't even think Vaapad is as big of an amp as people portray it. Mace is an 8 bordering 9 according to Lucas/Gillard, and the ROTS novel was line edited by Lucas himself who had that thinking process at the time. People just really want to peg Windu really low for some reason.

Legends Windu not canon.