How to fix America's ghettos?

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.



Kurk
I live near quite a few, unfortunately, and soon might even be forced to work EMS in one.

What needs to be done to fix these rust-belt induced ghettos and restore an acceptable quality of life for these people?

Assuming you were provided the means to do so, what would you implement?

Can Maslow's hierarchy of needs apply here? Nature-nurture effect?

cdtm
Roll back the "profit margins at any cost" narrative.

You know, the reason for outsourcing, child labor, undocumented exploitation, and state pork/collusion schemes to try and keep businesses from leaving and destroying the tax base.

NemeBro
Kill the black people.

ESB -1138
Originally posted by Kurk
I live near quite a few, unfortunately, and soon might even be forced to work EMS in one.

What needs to be done to fix these rust-belt induced ghettos and restore an acceptable quality of life for these people?

Assuming you were provided the means to do so, what would you implement?

Can Maslow's hierarchy of needs apply here? Nature-nurture effect?

First would be to establish a competent law enforcing presence in the ghetto. No one will try to invest in high-crime areas unless you can get crime taken care of.

Tzeentch
Deport all poor people to Iraq

Flyattractor
Originally posted by NemeBro
Kill the black people.

Well what ever you do...Do NOT Take their Obama Phones away from them....

Student "ALLEGEDALY" Attacks Teacher after Phone is taken away....

Tzeentch
good one MAGAbro xD

BackFire
Invest money into those areas.

Hire more/better police for the area.

cdtm
Originally posted by ESB -1138
First would be to establish a competent law enforcing presence in the ghetto. No one will try to invest in high-crime areas unless you can get crime taken care of.

That's been done. It's called gentrification.

Of course, the crime elements just move somewhere else, but NO ONE will invest in people too poor to contribute anything. Try and drive out the poor and lure in the more affluent, sure, but these things don't happen out of altruistic duty to poor ghetto dwellers.

Kurk

Emperordmb
End the war on drugs and inculcate sexual morality.

cdtm
Better question is: Who would put in real effort to train people.

It probably takes more money to do it right then government is willing to spend (They cut corners on tsa airport security, for gods sake.)

And the private sector has no reason to care, what with an employers market and an entire world to pick qualified candidates.

Kurk
Originally posted by cdtm
Better question is: Who would put in real effort to train people.

It probably takes more money to do it right then government is willing to spend (They cut corners on tsa airport security, for gods sake.)

And the private sector has no reason to care, what with an employers market and an entire world to pick qualified candidates.
"One man should be able to make a difference if he is powerful enough."

Kurk
Originally posted by Emperordmb
End the war on drugs and inculcate sexual morality. What should be done about the opioid epidemic? I'm sick of giving narcan to low-lives. One part of me wants to execute all druggies like Duterte; another part of me wants me to completely legalize all drugs, work for a pharmaceutical company, and profit off of other peoples' shitty life decisions.

cdtm
I'll be honest, I'm finding it harder to demonize drug dealers.

It ruins lives, but nothing underhanded about it. Everyone knows whats what.

Not like someone dedicating the best years of their lives to a company, only to be forced out because you're too old (Like happened to my father), or some other bullshit tactics designed to maximize profits (Amazon's strategy of pitting employees against one another is pretty slimy, imo)

That's not even getting into the typical shady practices like "buy product someone needs to live, raise prices by 5000%, profit" or ip hoard and sue schemes, to name a few.


And I know the common response is "So work for yourself/get a better job", but for me that's a non answer. It assumes a janitor or, retail worker, or anyone working for anyone else deserves whatever they get.

People who believe that either lack empathy, or are closet wanna be's who see themselves controlling the whip someday, which makes them sociopaths..

BackFire
Originally posted by Emperordmb
End the war on drugs and inculcate sexual morality.

First one's good. Second one is questionable. What constitutes sexual morality? Who decides on what that is? What if one disagrees? What does sexual morality have to do with fixing the ghettos? So on.

Originally posted by cdtm
I'll be honest, I'm finding it harder to demonize drug dealers.

It ruins lives, but nothing underhanded about it. Everyone knows whats what.

Not like someone dedicating the best years of their lives to a company, only to be forced out because you're too old (Like happened to my father), or some other bullshit tactics designed to maximize profits (Amazon's strategy of pitting employees against one another is pretty slimy, imo)

That's not even getting into the typical shady practices like "buy product someone needs to live, raise prices by 5000%, profit" or ip hoard and sue schemes, to name a few.


And I know the common response is "So work for yourself/get a better job", but for me that's a non answer. It assumes a janitor or, retail worker, or anyone working for anyone else deserves whatever they get.

People who believe that either lack empathy, or are closet wanna be's who see themselves controlling the whip someday, which makes them sociopaths..

I think demonizing drug dealers is a cop out. They're giving people what they want. The goal needs to be enhancing the lives of the drug users to the point that they don't seek out drug dealers in the first place.

Emperordmb
Originally posted by BackFire
First one's good.
thumb up

Originally posted by BackFire
Second one is questionable. What constitutes sexual morality? Who decides on what that is? What if one disagrees?
I mean I'd say not getting a woman pregnant then running off is a start. That should be a pretty solid baseline if nothing else. It's not really something that could or should be done by force though. The tension of morality is something each individual must take up the burden of properly bearing, and it's not something they can be forced into.

Originally posted by BackFire
What does sexual morality have to do with fixing the ghettos? So on.
Single motherhood is the largest predictor of inter-generational poverty, and a child being raised without a father is much more likely to drop out of school, become a violent criminal, and have all sorts of other difficulties in their lives... and is more likely to get pregnant/get someone else pregnant out of wedlock.

BackFire
Understood.

Are you in favor of sexual education being taught in public schools? Also do you think poverty-stricken young people should have cheap/free access to birth control methods, such as condoms and the like?

Adam_PoE
Solve poverty.

Emperordmb
Originally posted by BackFire
Are you in favor of sexual education being taught in public schools?
That depends on two things.

The first is the age of the children. I don't think prepubescent kids in elementary school need to be learning about sex positions for example.

Secondly it depends on the aim and nature of the sex ed. I think they should learn the knowledge they need to be equipped with for their own safety and well being, how to use birth control, avoid STDs, unwanted pregnancy, etc. but I don't think the place of sex ed is moral propaganda. I don't think the people doing sex ed should delve into a moral treatise on why homosexuality is moral or that there are twenty billion genders even though I agree with the former of the two, just as I wouldn't want the promulgation of a moralistic obsession with abstinence only.

Originally posted by BackFire
Also do you think poverty-stricken young people should have cheap/free access to birth control methods, such as condoms and the like?
As far as I'm aware condoms aren't particularly expensive. I do get a little dicey on the suggestion that the government should appropriate money from the taxpayers to provide a service to people not relating to the protection of their rights though.

JKBart
Originally posted by NemeBro
Kill the black people.

thumb up thumb up thumb up thumb up thumb up thumb up

BackFire
Originally posted by Emperordmb
That depends on two things.

The first is the age of the children. I don't think prepubescent kids in elementary school need to be learning about sex positions for example.

Secondly it depends on the aim and nature of the sex ed. I think they should learn the knowledge they need to be equipped with for their own safety and well being, how to use birth control, avoid STDs, unwanted pregnancy, etc. but I don't think the place of sex ed is moral propaganda. I don't think the people doing sex ed should delve into a moral treatise on why homosexuality is moral or that there are twenty billion genders even though I agree with the former of the two, just as I wouldn't want the promulgation of a moralistic obsession with abstinence only.


As far as I'm aware condoms aren't particularly expensive. I do get a little dicey on the suggestion that the government should appropriate money from the taxpayers to provide a service to people not relating to the protection of their rights though.

Hmm, your answer makes me wonder what sex ed is actually like now. When I had it it was pretty by the numbers and straight forward, I don't think they even really mentioned homosexuality or anything about morality. And the idea of many genders wasn't even in existence back then. I would agree with you, I'd prefer if they keep it about the things that are necessary to learning how to avoid STD's/unwanted pregnancies. Though I imagine these days including some lessons about homosexuality at the least is going to happen. I also agree on the age, I think probably somewhere between the ages of 10-12 would be a good point in time to learn about some of this stuff. Probably closer to 12.

Condoms aren't particularly expensive, but there's the embarrassment factor to consider. Lot of people are too embarrassed to go buy condoms in public for various reasons. Those reasons increase if the person is young, maybe they're afraid someone at the store might recognize them or be a friend of the parents, stuff like that. Also what you and I consider not expensive might be different from a 15 year old kid who gets an allowance.

Emperordmb
Originally posted by BackFire
Hmm, your answer makes me wonder what sex ed is actually like now. When I had it it was pretty by the numbers and straight forward, I don't think they even really mentioned homosexuality or anything about morality. And the idea of many genders wasn't even in existence back then. I would agree with you, I'd prefer if they keep it about the things that are necessary to learning how to avoid STD's/unwanted pregnancies.
Well I remember my sex ed being pretty straight forward and objective as well, but now apparently elementary schoolers are being taught this type of ideology not even related to sex ed.

Originally posted by BackFire
Though I imagine these days including some lessons about homosexuality at the least is going to happen.
And I think that's a good thing, but I think it should be a morally detached teaching.

Originally posted by BackFire
I also agree on the age, I think probably somewhere between the ages of 10-12 would be a good point in time to learn about some of this stuff. Probably closer to 12.
Yeah that sounds good to me.

Originally posted by BackFire
Condoms aren't particularly expensive, but there's the embarrassment factor to consider. Lot of people are too embarrassed to go buy condoms in public for various reasons. Those reasons increase if the person is young, maybe they're afraid someone at the store might recognize them or be a friend of the parents, stuff like that. Also what you and I consider not expensive might be different from a 15 year old kid who gets an allowance.
I'm curious as to how there wouldn't be the similar factor of embarrassment in going to the free condom pickup place

NemeBro
Originally posted by BackFire
Also what you and I consider not expensive might be different from a 15 year old kid who gets an allowance. I have my doubts that a kid from a broken home in the hood typically gets an allowance.

Phuck, I didn't even get an allowance, and my situation was not nearly that bad.

BackFire
Well the free condom could be given out in a private place, like maybe the school nurse's office or something.

Also Neme makes a good point. Condoms may very well be prohibitively expensive for a kid from a broken home.

Kurk
DMB what should be done about the opiods?

JMANGO
End the drug war, actually allow the second A to be the second A and legalise hookers.

cdtm
Originally posted by NemeBro
I have my doubts that a kid from a broken home in the hood typically gets an allowance.

Phuck, I didn't even get an allowance, and my situation was not nearly that bad.

I agree.

I also have my doubts a 15 year old would give two flips about safe sex, but I suppose it doesn't hurt to have that option.

snowdragon
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Solve poverty.

How is that done?

It will never be solved by the federal govt. We know it is not done at the top of our govt, so where do we assign value and attribute personal, business and govt values to assist in fixing said problems?

Emperordmb
Originally posted by snowdragon
How is that done?

It will never be solved by the federal govt. We know it is not done at the top of our govt, so where do we assign value and attribute personal, business and govt values to assist in fixing said problems?
NB4 some strawman about how you don't actually think the federal government would be ineffective, you just hate poor people and want them to suffer.

snowdragon
Originally posted by Emperordmb
NB4 some strawman about how you don't actually think the federal government would be ineffective, you just hate poor people and want them to suffer.

I know the solution isn't devised from the top but its best received and delivered from where it's from. Offering assistance doesn't resolve issues in areas that define themselves with their local culture.

Do you believe otherwise?

Kurk
DMB avoiding my question about the opioid crisis demonstrates the fallacy that is his position on drugs.

Emperordmb
Originally posted by snowdragon
I know the solution isn't devised from the top but its best received and delivered from where it's from. Offering assistance doesn't resolve issues in areas that define themselves with their local culture.

Do you believe otherwise?
No I agree with you completely, I'm just preemptively calling out something AdamPOE could be reasonably expected to say, given his history of assuming the absolute worst about his opponent's motivations and then using that as a character attack, such as how whenever he debates abortion he falls back on "You don't really care about the sanctity of life! You just want women to suffer for having sex!"

Emperordmb
Originally posted by Kurk
DMB avoiding my question about the opioid crisis demonstrates the fallacy that is his position on drugs.
To be honest I'm not sure.

To me though the answer isn't criminalizing the people who get hooked on opiates. You just end up destroying people's lives even more.

Also there's another catch, when you criminalize certain drugs, chemists will tweak chemical formula's to get an analogue to the illegal drug that is not yet illegal itself, and often times those analogues end up being more dangerous.

Take LSD for example, it's a relatively safe substance, no addiction, virtually no chance of overdosing, but it got criminalized, so people started experimenting with chemicals to create something similar that the government wasn't yet familiar enough with to criminalize and people turned to the much less safe alternative, some of which could **** up your brain after one use.

Kurk
Where I live people caught by the police are given X amount of days to enter a rehab program to avoid prosecution. Some of them do, others don't. And yes, analogues are a problem.

ESB -1138
Originally posted by Kurk
Where I live people caught by the police are given X amount of days to enter a rehab program to avoid prosecution. Some of them do, others don't. And yes, analogues are a problem.

If the drug doesn't cause any externalities then I see no reason for it to be banned. There are drugs that can make someone super violent and aggressive, those should remain illegal or heavily regulated. Opioids, I believe, don't do anything like that. The government shouldn't have any say of what you do to yourself. It's not their job to protect you from yourself.

Khazra Reborn
Reinstate the draft, young men need to have a purpose. Also, legalize, or at least decriminalize all drugs.

ESB -1138
Originally posted by Khazra Reborn
Reinstate the draft, young men need to have a purpose. Also, legalize, or at least decriminalize all drugs.

What are you reinstating the draft for? Not really given them a purpose outside of forced military service which won't help

JMANGO
Originally posted by JMANGO
End the drug war, actually allow the second A to be the second A and legalise hookers.

Best solution without spending a dime. FedGov money is like pouring water into a bucket with holes.

Second prize goes to Nemebro

Putinbot1
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Solve poverty. Bingo!

cdtm
Kill all lawyers/former lawyers.

Kurk
Originally posted by cdtm
Kill all lawyers/former lawyers.
https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/41654030.jpg


Originally posted by ESB -1138
If the drug doesn't cause any externalities then I see no reason for it to be banned. There are drugs that can make someone super violent and aggressive, those should remain illegal or heavily regulated. Opioids, I believe, don't do anything like that. The government shouldn't have any say of what you do to yourself. It's not their job to protect you from yourself.

Maybe not directly, but indirectly. E.g Overdosing when driving causing innocent parties to die in accidents.

Let the filth die. I hope the pharmaceuticals make as much money as they possibly can off of the low-lives.

ESB -1138
Originally posted by Kurk
https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/41654030.jpg




Maybe not directly, but indirectly. E.g Overdosing when driving causing innocent parties to die in accidents.

Let the filth die. I hope the pharmaceuticals make as much money as they possibly can off of the low-lives.

That's why you make it illegal to be under the influence while driving like we do with alchohol and weed

Khazra Reborn
Originally posted by ESB -1138
What are you reinstating the draft for? Not really given them a purpose outside of forced military service which won't help

Not every job in the military is a bullet shield. There'sof jobs in the military, it gives poor people the ability to learn a skill, for free and gives them a purpose. And most importantly, gets them off the street.

ESB -1138
Originally posted by Khazra Reborn
Not every job in the military is a bullet shield. There'sof jobs in the military, it gives poor people the ability to learn a skill, for free and gives them a purpose. And most importantly, gets them off the street.

First off, we shouldn't force people into the hands of politicians. The entire point of America was to maximize the freedom of the individual which was laid down by people like John Locke. And as Milton Friedman pointed out, the draft doesn't inspire civic virtue but the opposite of it. If people are not already willingly joining the military, go ahead and see how motivate they are when you force them in. It'll be like how many are in the South Korean army.

Secondly, jobs are not an endless supply in the military. You know what happens to people in the Air Force (for example) who were going in a certain career field that is filled? They either get placed on janitorial duties (like a guy I knew who had to wait 2 years until he actually started to train for his job) or get put into another career field (9 times out of 10 that would be Security Forces aka military police). Sometimes you just do janitorial duties only to be sent to SF.

Third, the idea that joining the military is going to fix the ghetto isn't true. Gang members already join the military to become better gang members when they discharged. As noted by the FBI, "Military training could ultimately result in more sophisticated and deadly gangs...as well deadly assaults on law enforcement officers." They join and then share their knowledge and skills with gangs on the streets. So you could potentially be making the ghetto a worse place than it already is. An example would be in 2005 when a gang member shot and killed 2 policeman using training he acquired in the Marines.

Adam_PoE
Originally posted by snowdragon
How is that done?

It will never be solved by the federal govt. We know it is not done at the top of our govt, so where do we assign value and attribute personal, business and govt values to assist in fixing said problems?

A rhetorical question merits a rhetorical answer.

snowdragon
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
A rhetorical question merits a rhetorical answer.

Mine wasn't rhetorical, GG.



What is your proposed solution?

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by BackFire


Hire more/better police for the area.
Make sure police departments are subject to oversight by an independent commission.

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by Kurk
What should be done about the opioid epidemic?.
Help end the addiction or fck off and mind your own buisness.

Putinbot1
Increase opportunity, social mobility and life chances and reduce poverty.

Rockydonovang
The main way to end systematic discrimination against black people is to help the poor and underprivileged

-> suspend all voting id laws untill voting id's are easy to access for everyone
-> focus the criminal justice system on rehabilitation and end profit of prison motive

-> get rid of criminal records. If he/she is out of prison, then the government has lost any justification to violate his rights or deny him the full privileges of citizenship he's entitled to in exchange for following your laws. Allowing people to receive personal information about him without his consent is a direct violation of his privacy and greatly increases the chances of him coming back to prison.

-> school integration

-> stop environmental discrimination(ie: new york dumps most of it's waste in the bronx despite it's small size)

-> federally ban all laws that restrict the voting rights of ex convicts

-> make sure there are independent oversight comittees on police departments that both oversee the police and simulteously are fully free from the department's control

->end money-for-bail

-> federally ban "life without parole" convictions for non violent offenses:
https://www.aclu.org/files/assets/111813-lwop-complete-report.pdf

-> replace prison time for minor offenses with community service

-> early sex education

-> widespread promotion and support of adoption centers for those without the means to care for a child

dadudemon
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
The main way to end systematic discrimination against black people is to help the poor and underprivileged

1. suspend all voting id laws untill voting id's are easy to access for everyone
2. focus the criminal justice system on rehabilitation and end profit of prison motive

3. get rid of criminal records. If he/she is out of prison, then the government has lost any justification to violate his rights or deny him the full privileges of citizenship he's entitled to in exchange for following your laws. Allowing people to receive personal information about him without his consent is a direct violation of his privacy and greatly increases the chances of him coming back to prison.

4. school integration

5. stop environmental discrimination(ie: new york dumps most of it's waste in the bronx despite it's small size)

6. federally ban all laws that restrict the voting rights of ex convicts

7. make sure there are independent oversight comittees on police departments that both oversee the police and simulteously are fully free from the department's control

8. end money-for-bail

9. federally ban "life without parole" convictions for non violent offenses:
https://www.aclu.org/files/assets/111813-lwop-complete-report.pdf

10. replace prison time for minor offenses with community service

11. early sex education

12. widespread promotion and support of adoption centers for those without the means to care for a child


I numbered your points to make it easier to discuss them.

1. No, they should make voting ID laws even more strict BUT make them free and make them multipurposed.

2. Agreed 100%.

3. This is a very very terrible idea but I understand that point. Perhaps sealing records after the probation period and only legitimate law enforcement and criminal justice reasons can be used to open them again? In other words, end the criminal background checks from employers and stop making those records public? We live in the information age, however; there would be scrubbers that would automatically pull that information from court websites and compile their own records so sealing records after time served won't work to keep things "secret." This would have to be mandated through legislation. An article VII.V addition to the American Civil Rights Act that makes it unlawful to discriminate based on criminal history. But that's just crazy. You probably wouldn't ever want to hire a convicted child rapist to babysit at the daycare. Tell me more about this idea of yours. Change my mind.

4. I don't think that works. In order for this to work I think you mean you want to force people to move, force people to integrate? Meaning, force this Hispanic family to move to this white neighborhood. Force this white family to move to this black neighborhood, etc. Because that's the only way to create school districts that are forcefully integrated, racially. Unless you mean bus kids from the ghettos to go to schools with the rich kids? Busing didn't work.

5. I didn't know that. That's terrible. If you had more info and/or examples of this, I could be better informed. I had difficulty finding stuff outside of your Bronx example. But it looks like it is illegal dumping so the laws are already there but need to be enforced.

6. Somewhat agree. They need their voting rights restored after probation ends.

7. This exists already. At municipal (sometimes), state (almost always), and federal (always) levels. I believe you want it to be more effective? Whenever you find out about clear police corruption, it's because those organizations already did their thing. You wouldn't know about that cop slamming the lady's face on the floor when she passed out from him pushing the breath out of her (this actually happened and it legit rustled my jimmies ) What you're wanting is for there to be harsher consequences. The only way to do this is to drastically reduce the power of police unions.

8. Mostly agree. You get a full refund on your bail money if your charges are dismissed or you are found innocent. I think the fines and fees should be applied if and only if you are found guilty. In other words, end bail, stop jailing or incarcerating people so much, and fine people far more than we do, now.

9. Agreed 100000%. And end 3-strike rules.

10. Agreed. But judges need to be empowered to come up with alternative consequences and not just use jail or prison as the only outcomes from guilty judgments. I liked the judge the sentenced that one girl to have to walk to work or school for her uppity bad attitude and terrible behavior. Kept her out of jail. But she still got a consequence. Here is a video on this judge and his unorthodox methods.

11. Right. And it needs to include free contraceptives and where to get them. And abstinence needs to be mentioned briefly but the primary focus should be on safe sex and safe sexual choices. Young women and men need to be taught about shitty situations and how to avoid them. And they need to be taught that drunken sex is not rape.

12. Right. Let's end the war on drugs. Let's end all the hundreds of billions of dollars being funneled into the CJS for this drug war. And put lots of them money into other much more helpful social programs such as drug rehab, adoption, and help for parents and children (psychological help and teaching centers to train parents).



Do you have more? I like your post. Some great ideas.

Kurk
Another self-proposed one-word solution that is also the problem: serotonin

Flyattractor
I would think Soylent Green would be a better idea.

Rockydonovang
Yeah see, states are gonna do the first part to control who votes in elections while avoiding addressing the second part.


Sure, but the government shouldn't need records at all for minor crimes. Really though if the justice system works properly, serious criminals who come out have been rehabilitated or are still in untill they have been. If prisons are doing what they should do, there really shouldn't be a need for records at all. You might want to start with making sure minor crimes are completely erased. Specific organizations that have reason not to hire someone based on your example(your example) can ask the govt for special permission to look at relevant records.

After you've got rehabilitation down to a science, then you can start erasing major exc onvicts from records. Again, if someone commits a serious crime, (rape/murder) and have served the sentence the court gave them, then they should only be released on the condition of rehabilitation. Naturally if the sentence doesn't have "without parole", rehabilitation shouldn't be saved for the end of the sentence.


Yeah, that was what i was referring to. IE, NYPD has oversight, but it isn't independent from the NYPD. That is, unless some recent changes have been made.


-> reform affirmative action to be based on circumstance rather than race.

-> have welfare be received in exchange for some sort of public service which can be used as access to public jobs. (might need exceptions for mothers and families ect.)

-> kids are booted out of public school at 21. As an incentive on schools to do their jobs, they should be forced to deal with their failures for as long as it takes.

Wonder Man
Tell the kids about Dinosaurs
with memory enhancement kids can do any job they like

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.