Pre-Retcon Beyonder vs. The Endless

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twt
Pre-Retcon Beyonder vs. The Endless (all members)

Who wins?

SquallX
You are joking right?

MrMind
Good fight, all of Beyonder's most powerful fts were statement that was said by himself

back then the marvel cosmic structure was not as established as they were now. nobody short of TOAA would be able to deal with the entire family of Endless either.

Dream did some insane shit in overture. Destiny and Death are even more powerful than him

Beyonder did kill mistress death but it was not confirmed that mistress death was multiversal or universal in secret wars 2.
The endless are by nature multiversal aspects that came along right after the beginning of the creation

I'd go with the Endless here

Galan007
Hard to say. The only way to perma-kill the Endless is to erase them at a conceptual level across the entire DC totality.

Beyonder has the ability to unmake conceptual beings in such a way. However, it required a large portion of his power just to unmake Marvel Death:
https://i.imgur.com/wozy2wY.jpg

Corroborated in the 2015 Secret Wars OHOTMU:
https://i.imgur.com/RLB1tIJ.jpg


That said, I'm not sure if he'd have enough power to unmake *all* members of the Endless. /shrug

Mindset
Originally posted by Galan007
Hard to say. The only way to perma-kill the Endless is to erase them at a conceptual level across the entire DC totality.

Beyonder has the ability to unmake conceptual beings in such a way. However, it required a large portion of his power just to unmake Marvel Death:
https://i.imgur.com/wozy2wY.jpg

Corroborated in the 2015 Secret Wars OHOTMU:
https://i.imgur.com/RLB1tIJ.jpg


That said, I'm not sure if he'd have enough power to unmake *all* members of the Endless. /shrug Wasn't he still stronger than every other cosmic and had his fight with Owen after he erased Death?Originally posted by MrMind
Good fight, all of Beyonder's most powerful fts were statement that was said by himself

back then the marvel cosmic structure was not as established as they were now. nobody short of TOAA would be able to deal with the entire family of Endless either.

Dream did some insane shit in overture. Destiny and Death are even more powerful than him

Beyonder did kill mistress death but it was not confirmed that mistress death was multiversal or universal in secret wars 2.
The endless are by nature multiversal aspects that came along right after the beginning of the creation

I'd go with the Endless here How would Death not be universal at the very least?

MrMind
Originally posted by Mindset
How would Death not be universal at the very least?

that was what I was trying to say, she could be universal or multiversal.

Galan007
Originally posted by Mindset
Wasn't he still stronger than every other cosmic and had his fight with Owen after he erased Death? I mean, the other cosmic beings didn't try to directly oppose Beyonder after he dumped most of his power into the cup, which alludes to him still being more powerful. His fight with Owen took place after his full power had been restored, though.

*To clarify, I'm not saying that pre-retcon Beyonder isn't more powerful than the Endless. I'm just questioning his ability to actually beat them, if that makes sense... Because they cannot be beaten unless they are erased in a manner like I mentioned earlier.

Astner
Originally posted by Galan007
Hard to say. The only way to perma-kill the Endless is to erase them at a conceptual level across the entire DC totality.
That's not true. Morpheus' death at the hands of the Furies didn't erase the Dreaming.

https://i.imgur.com/NOgwkzxm.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/9QONfOxm.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/jNV1wicm.jpg

From Sandman #69: The Kindly Ones

Galan007
^ It is true.

I'm talking about erasing the Endless entirely/permanently -- not just killing one of their physical manifestations, like Death did to Morpheus there. The latter only amounted to a momentary setback for Dream, as the concept had already assumed another host/form(ie. Daniel Hall) a few pages later:

https://s7d1.turboimg.net/t1/38986792_SM-69-020.jpg https://s7d1.turboimg.net/t1/38986791_SM-69-021.jpg

Astner
The Dreaming isn't the Endless, Dream is. And the concept can be without a host, Destruction left his realm and no one assumed his position.

Galan007
Eh, I don't think you understand what I'm saying here.

And Destruction still embodies his namesake concept, like the others do:
https://i.imgur.com/hsjAIE4.jpg

He simply had a proverbial change of heart(after 10 billion years), and abandoned his realm so that destruction could proceed/evolve on its own. IOW, the concept can still go on without his direct influence, but he still embodies it regardless.

cdtm
The Endless wins, with ease.

100% serious and provable.

Astner
Originally posted by Galan007
He simply had a proverbial change of heart(after 10 billion years), and abandoned his realm so that destruction could proceed/evolve on its own. IOW, the concept can still go on without his direct influence, but he still embodies it regardless.
Fair enough.

But let's go back to Morpheus, there was a brief period of time after Morpheus died and before Daniel used the gem, where the Dreaming didn't have a host, right? Consequently, the Dreaming can exist without a host.

cdtm
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-0QjX5hPd7dI/Vx7QUEmYIxI/AAAAAAAAQDY/5u3uKqeTSOEtob-sSu_CHjQAkSS8zrfcACCo/s0/RCO022.jpg


And here's the proof.

If Beyonder is vulnerable to Starfox's manipulations, an Endless like Despair or Delirium will have a field day with him.

Galan007
Originally posted by Astner
Fair enough.

But let's go back to Morpheus, there was a brief period of time after Morpheus died and before Daniel used the gem, where the Dreaming didn't have a host, right? Consequently, the Dreaming can exist without a host. Not exactly.

Before Morpheus went off to confront the Furies, he left the Eagle Stone(which contained a portion of his essence) with baby Daniel:
https://s7d1.turboimg.net/t1/38986857_SM-68-001.jpg https://s7d1.turboimg.net/t1/38986856_SM-68-002.jpg https://s7d1.turboimg.net/t1/38986878_SM-68-003.jpg

So you might say that Morpheus was never completely destroyed, because a portion of him still existed in that stone. IOW, the Dreaming was technically never without a host.

Zack M
The Endless win, eventually.

zopzop
Beyonder erases them one by one. It don't matter if it's pre retcon or post retcon (since most of his feats and fights are still applicable post retcon).

gauntlet o doom
Wasn't Dream imprisoned by a magician?

Glorificus
Beyonder stomps.

burrrrrr
Originally posted by cdtm
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-0QjX5hPd7dI/Vx7QUEmYIxI/AAAAAAAAQDY/5u3uKqeTSOEtob-sSu_CHjQAkSS8zrfcACCo/s0/RCO022.jpg


And here's the proof.

If Beyonder is vulnerable to Starfox's manipulations, an Endless like Despair or Delirium will have a field day with him.

Those were fake Avengers, created by the Beyonder himself, to fool Dazzler into caring for him.

meep-meep
Originally posted by burrrrrr
Those were fake Avengers, created by the Beyonder himself, to fool Dazzler into caring for him.

Yup.

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