Phoenix Vulcan vs. Superman Prime

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.



twt
Phoenix Vulcan vs. Superman Prime

Who wins?

StyleTime
Phoenix Vulcan from the What If? He failed there like he failed in 616.

We'd have to look at other Phoenix avatars to make a case here, and avatars aren't necessarily created equally.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by StyleTime
Phoenix Vulcan from the What If? He failed there like he failed in 616.

We'd have to look at other Phoenix avatars to make a case here, and avatars aren't necessarily created equally.

Let's use Colossus thumb up

zopzop
Originally posted by StyleTime
Phoenix Vulcan from the What If? He failed there like he failed in 616.

We'd have to look at other Phoenix avatars to make a case here, and avatars aren't necessarily created equally.
Uhm, what? PF Vulcan was a beast that issue. He destroyed 8 galaxies with ease, he destroyed the majority of the Annihilation Wave as a side effect of one of his rampages, he had 8 Watchers wetting themselves in fear that he'd destroy the universe.

No other PF, aside from Jean in like 2 What Ifs, has anything close to this.

I actually think he beats SMP.

abhilegend
Because he destroyed galaxies over time?

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by zopzop


No other PF, aside from Jean in like 2 What Ifs, has anything close to this.



Thats not entirely true.

Jean did FAR greater feats in New X-men.

Grand Design Jean-Phoenix remade the universe from scratch (so not just manipulating pre-existing matter but generating it herself) atom by atom and it was stated to not be the 1st time she had done it

Rachel gathered the psychic imprints of all life in the universe and overwhelmed Pre-retcon Beyonder

Hope Phoenix reversed Wandas multiversal affecting No More mutants spell

Cyclops Phoenix staggered God Doom before getting choked out after getting too yappy

StyleTime
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Let's use Colossus thumb up
thumb up laughing out loud
Originally posted by zopzop
Uhm, what? PF Vulcan was a beast that issue. He destroyed 8 galaxies with ease, he destroyed the majority of the Annihilation Wave as a side effect of one of his rampages, he had 8 Watchers wetting themselves in fear that he'd destroy the universe.

No other PF, aside from Jean in like 2 What Ifs, has anything close to this.
He consumed 7 galaxies and only a third of the Annhilation Wave, not the majority. Not that that is something to scoff at, but it also occured over an undetermined period of time. He didn't just pull a Galactus and nuke them.

And other Phoenix hosts have outdone that, unless you're only counting explosions as feats. GalacticStorm highlighted some above.

If you consider the full implications of Hope's feat for example, she's downright bonkers. And she had control over the Phoenix despite such a short time with it, while Vulcan explicitly failed to harness it properly.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by zopzop
Uhm, what? PF Vulcan was a beast that issue. He destroyed 8 galaxies with ease, he destroyed the majority of the Annihilation Wave as a side effect of one of his rampages, he had 8 Watchers wetting themselves in fear that he'd destroy the universe.

No other PF, aside from Jean in like 2 What Ifs, has anything close to this.

I actually think he beats SMP.

Loving the sig laughing

abhilegend
Where did Jean remade the universe?

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by abhilegend
Where did Jean remade the universe?

X-men Grand Design Second Genesis 001.

Its a retcon of the M'kraan crystal incident. When the crystal is activated everything outside of the crystal was blinked out of existence, it was a complete void. No matter, no time,just nothing.

https://imgur.com/JIkK4aD

https://imgur.com/2wtyC7s



Phoenix is then stated to have rebuilt the universe from scratch atom by atom. The comic states that this time around she performed the feat even quicker than the 1st time, tying into previously established continuity that all life/energy and matter derive from the Phoenix.

https://imgur.com/KwHWC15

https://imgur.com/hVf8Ktc

https://imgur.com/Y2HIxOA

abhilegend
Wasn't it revealed that mkraan crystal helped in that?

Putinbot1
What can she do to Prime? He can survive Universes being destroyed.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by abhilegend
Wasn't it revealed that mkraan crystal helped in that?

No. Where do you see that in the scans? This is a recent comic confused

abhilegend
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
No. Where do you see that in the scans? This is a recent comic confused
In the same comic where it happened?

https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Uncanny-X-Men-1963/Issue-108?id=22747

You know grand design is just a retelling, right?

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by abhilegend
In the same comic where it happened?

So where in the scan does it actually state that? Without locating any such statement your assumption remains just that and holds no weight here.

Originally posted by abhilegend
https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Uncanny-X-Men-1963/Issue-108?id=22747

You know grand design is just a retelling, right?

What do you mean "just" a retelling? Its an official Marvel comic not a fanzine so until another Marvel source pops up covering the same section of x-men history telling us something different it is what it is. wink

abhilegend
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
So where in the scan does it actually state that? Without locating any such statement your assumption remains just that and holds no weight here.



What do you mean "just" a retelling? Its an official Marvel comic not a fanzine so until another Marvel source pops up covering the same section of x-men history telling us something different it is what it is. wink
The mkraan crystal destroyed the universe, Phoenix repaired the mkraan crystal and restored the universe with the help of X men. That's what happened in Uncanny x men 108.

This is just the retelling of the event.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by abhilegend
The mkraan crystal destroyed the universe, Phoenix repaired the mkraan crystal and restored the universe with the help of X men. That's what happened in Uncanny x men 108.

This is just the retelling of the event.

That was the original story. Now it has been officially retold.

I repeat....this is not a fanzine.

Until another official source says otherwise, this is the latest portrayal of that story.

The same way Galactus's early history has been retold time and time again. Are we to hold on to the original 1960's account? Course not. roll eyes (sarcastic)

You saying otherwise doesnt really mean much abz. Let it go sad

abhilegend
I'm not sure what's your point? Phoenix repaired the mkraan crystal and repaired the universe with the help of X men in X men 108 and the event is retold here.

What are you talking about here? Letting what go?

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by abhilegend
I'm not sure what's your point? Phoenix repaired the mkraan crystal and repaired the universe with the help of X men in X men 108 and the event is retold here.

What are you talking about here? Letting what go?

Initially you tried to dismiss the feat outright, then upon seeing you had no justification to do so youve settled into a more accurate position on this issue. Thats good to see wink

Grand Design is a retelling and expands on certain story elements. Whereas before when the crystal was activated the Phoenix re-energized its matrix thereby containing its multiversal power, Grand Design is saying that when the crystal was activated, reality was actually completely wiped out during those "BLINK" effects we saw in the original story leaving a void. However Phoenix then rebuilt reality atom by atom restoring the status quo.

So when you summarize that incident the Phoenix not only rebuilt reality from scratch atom by atom (we're not talking the re-organisation of existing matter here) but she also contained the power of the M'kraan crystal which by canon was behind the destruction of the 6th iteration of the multiverse.

Thats made a colossal feat even greater big grin

abhilegend
When did I try to dismiss any feat? Calm down, don't pull a Mr Master now.

I just said that the issue retells the feat, not sure what's your problem and frankly I don't care enough at this point.

Good day to you.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by abhilegend
When did I try to dismiss any feat? Calm down, don't pull a Mr Master now.

I just said that the issue retells the feat, not sure what's your problem and frankly I don't care enough at this point.

Good day to you.

You tried to assert that the feat was reliant on some mysterious unrevealed powerup from the M'kraan crystal, when i questioned where on panel you got that information you couldnt tell me and then resorted to trying to dismiss the whole incident as "just" a retelling as if that fact meant that it wasnt canon. After i rubbished all of that nonsense you settled into your current position.

That works for me smile

Forgive me for my blunt nature i really need to have more consideration for those of a more sensitive disposition. sad

abhilegend
Sensitive? You obviously haven't met me till now.

Try harder next time.

StyleTime
Well, I think we can all agree that Vulcan didn't do anything anywhere near all that.

As we saw, Vulcan had very little control of the Phoenix. When pressed too hard in combat, the Phoenix flared up and, literally, consumed him. Rachel and Cyclops aren't here to help him, and Prime is the most physically imposing thing Vulcan's ever encountered. He will push Vulcan to the limit too fast.

Vulcan will blast Prime, and panic when Prime is still standing. As Prime returns fire, Vulcan will realize he's in over his head and the Phoenix will flare outta control and disintegrate him. Prime will stand there like blink as a flamebird eats his opponent and flies away to continue Phoenix shenanigans elsewhere.

I can't see Vulcan winning this.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by StyleTime
Well, I think we can all agree that Vulcan didn't do anything anywhere near all that.

As we saw, Vulcan had very little control of the Phoenix. When pressed too hard in combat, the Phoenix flared up and, literally, consumed him. Rachel and Cyclops aren't here to help him, and Prime is the most physically imposing thing Vulcan's ever encountered. He will push Vulcan to the limit too fast.

Vulcan will blast Prime, and panic when Prime is still standing. As Prime returns fire, Vulcan will realize he's in over his head and the Phoenix will flare outta control and disintegrate him. Prime will stand there like blink as a flamebird eats his opponent and flies away to continue Phoenix shenanigans elsewhere.

I can't see Vulcan winning this.

If anything id say youve got their demonstrated personalities reversed.

Vulcan isnt one to panic, in battle. He rages. Its Prime who crumbles when faced with a bigger fish.

Vulcan lost control in that he gave into the destructive nature and rampaged around the universe.

The only time he truly could not control the power was when he tried to use it against the Summers/Grey bloodline and thats when the Phoenix resisted due to its affinity with that line as a result of its prime host Jean.

Other than that Vulcans good to go. He atomized Gladiator (who is a Marvel analogue of Superman) with a thought.

As ruthless and determined as Vulcan is, Superboy Prime doesnt stand a chance.

StyleTime
I have to disagree there. Rachel pointed out explicitly that the Phoenix reacts poorly to negative emotions, and would kill Vulcan because of it. This happened after he got hurt and freaked out, although he was said to have little control right after he obtained it too. It was the first time he met any resistance and he caved. I don't see this going any differently tbh.

Jean protected Cyke and Havok true, but she didn't make the Phoenix go haywire. And, depending on when you think she first intervened, Cable was blocking hits just fine.

Gladiator isn't close to Prime though.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by StyleTime
I have to disagree there. Rachel pointed out explicitly that the Phoenix reacts poorly to negative emotions, and would kill Vulcan because of it. This happened after he got hurt and freaked out, although he was said to have little control right after he obtained it too. It was the first time he met any resistance and he caved. I don't see this going any differently tbh.

Jean protected Cyke and Havok true, but she didn't make the Phoenix go haywire. And, depending on when you think she first intervened, Cable was blocking hits just fine.

Gladiator isn't close to Prime though.

Jean was with them from the start of that battle.

After Vulcans initial attack Cyclops was on fire but it didnt do any damage and he remarked that the heroes werent alone and that he could feel "her" as in Jean.


https://i.imgur.com/MK2AKuF.png


The Phoenix resisted Vulcan only from the moment he began attacking the bloodline she had an affinity to.

Yes the Phoenix reacts poorly to negative emotions, thats canon we know this. But Vulcan was consumed by its power and subsequently raging from the the start and yet he rolled with the rage and was in full control and decimated worlds and galaxies because he wanted to. The differentiator was his attack on the Grey/summers clan and it was explicitly remarked that Jean was now intervening.


A Superman level being cant be dismissed as nothing in comparison to Superboy Prime.

Regardless you're missing the point. Gladiator was atomised with zero effort by a widespread attack that wasnt even focused at him specifically. A concentrated attack on Superboy Prime would see similar results. wink

zopzop
Originally posted by StyleTime
Rachel and Cyclops aren't here to help him, and Prime is the most physically imposing thing Vulcan's ever encountered. He will push Vulcan to the limit too fast.

Vulcan will blast Prime, and panic when Prime is still standing.
Are you freaking kidding? Annihilus with the Quantum Bands survived Galactus' "Herald my Rage" blast but was vaporized by Vulcan.

LordofBrooklyn
Originally posted by zopzop
I actually think he beats SMP.

Did the SCALEBAG ABOMINATION write this or do you really believe this?!!!

zopzop
Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
Did the SCALEBAG ABOMINATION write this or do you really believe this?!!!
Sorry LoB. sadwalk
PF Vulcan was a monster and this was with Jean putting him on a leash.

LordofBrooklyn
Originally posted by zopzop
Sorry LoB. sadwalk
PF Vulcan was a monster and this was with Jean putting him on a leash.

So this BETRAYAL is of your own free will!!!

abhilegend
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Jean was with them from the start of that battle.

After Vulcans initial attack Cyclops was on fire but it didnt do any damage and he remarked that the heroes werent alone and that he could feel "her" as in Jean.


https://i.imgur.com/MK2AKuF.png


The Phoenix resisted Vulcan only from the moment he began attacking the bloodline she had an affinity to.

Yes the Phoenix reacts poorly to negative emotions, thats canon we know this. But Vulcan was consumed by its power and subsequently raging from the the start and yet he rolled with the rage and was in full control and decimated worlds and galaxies because he wanted to. The differentiator was his attack on the Grey/summers clan and it was explicitly remarked that Jean was now intervening.


A Superman level being cant be dismissed as nothing in comparison to Superboy Prime.

Regardless you're missing the point. Gladiator was atomised with zero effort by a widespread attack that wasnt even focused at him specifically. A concentrated attack on Superboy Prime would see similar results. wink
Comparing Gladiator to Superman Prime? SBP survived an entire universe getting destroyed, are galaxy destroying feats supposed to be impressive compared to that?

zopzop
Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
So this BETRAYAL is of your own free will!!!
In my defense, I'm currently battling the flu. My mind ain't 100%. sad

LordofBrooklyn
Originally posted by zopzop
In my defense, I'm currently battling the flu. My mind ain't 100%. sad

I will keep this in mind.

HOWEVER..

YOUR SIG IS NOT HELPING MATTERS!!!

StyleTime
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Jean was with them from the start of that battle.

After Vulcans initial attack Cyclops was on fire but it didnt do any damage and he remarked that the heroes werent alone and that he could feel "her" as in Jean.

https://i.imgur.com/MK2AKuF.png

The Phoenix resisted Vulcan only from the moment he began attacking the bloodline she had an affinity to.

Yes the Phoenix reacts poorly to negative emotions, thats canon we know this. But Vulcan was consumed by its power and subsequently raging from the the start and yet he rolled with the rage and was in full control and decimated worlds and galaxies because he wanted to. The differentiator was his attack on the Grey/summers clan and it was explicitly remarked that Jean was now intervening.

As I said, that depends on when you think Jean intervened. The heroes attacked him earlier too, and the extent of her involvement is unclear there. Regardless, we agree that Jean intervened, but all she did was protect them from harm. The Phoenix raged out on Vulcan all on it's own. Them being Summers/Grey was irrelevant, as Rachel's dialogue specifically explains why the Phoenix is killing Vulcan: he lost control. Jean wanted to protect the people, not the Phoenix.

We can't assume something else if the dialogue is literally telling us the mechanism at play. He decimated worlds because no one was there to actually press him. Prime won't fall over like the folks he faced, which were primarily metas.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
A Superman level being cant be dismissed as nothing in comparison to Superboy Prime.

Regardless you're missing the point. Gladiator was atomised with zero effort by a widespread attack that wasnt even focused at him specifically. A concentrated attack on Superboy Prime would see similar results. wink
If he has wildly inferior feats to Prime, and Superman for that matter, then yes, he can be dismissed.

No, I understand your point. I'm highlighting why you're mistaken. Even if we ignore the rest of this discussion, Prime has durability feats so astronomically beyond Vulcan's demonstrated offensive output, it's disingenuous to claim Vulcan could atomize him. Meanwhile, Vulcan has never dealt with someone on Primes level. Gladiator isn't anywhere close.
Originally posted by zopzop
Are you freaking kidding? Annihilus with the Quantum Bands survived Galactus' "Herald my Rage" blast but was vaporized by Vulcan.
Nova said "Annihilus is dead." Saying "vaporized" is just you speculating. We didn't see what happened, so maybe he just confirmed Annihilus's body?

Regardless, Prime is astronomically more durable than Annihilus going by feats. The guy had a universe explode in his face.

zopzop
Originally posted by StyleTime
Nova said "Annihilus is dead." Saying "vaporized" is just you speculating. We didn't see what happened, so maybe he just confirmed Annihilus's body?

Dead, annihilated, vaporized, destroyed, etc... The point is PF Vulkan KILLED him. The same dude that survived Galactus' 'herald my rage' blast that wiped a galaxy.

NemeBro
It took out three solar systems iirc. Also wasn't really an explosion, just a wave of cosmic energy that happened to expand that far.

Insane Titan

zopzop

StyleTime
Originally posted by zopzop
Dead, annihilated, vaporized, destroyed, etc... The point is PF Vulkan KILLED him. The same dude that survived Galactus' 'herald my rage' blast that wiped a galaxy.
Which is less impressive than Prime's feat.
Originally posted by zopzop

PF Vulcan took out a guy that survived a galaxy busting blast from Galactus that wiped out the Annihilation Wave.
The statement in that scene is debatable, but even leaving that alone-

It's still less impressive than Prime.

abhilegend
Originally posted by zopzop
In the original story, you guys are correct. It was stated that it took out 3 star systems with no sign of slowing.
https://i.postimg.cc/5YjMXNmW/6210484-g.jpg
In the retelling, it took out the entire galaxy.
https://i.postimg.cc/d7p59sYY/thanos-004.jpg

PF Vulcan took out a guy that survived a galaxy busting blast from Galactus that wiped out the Annihilation Wave.
No, it only destroyed the solar systems. Explicitly stated in Blockbusters of the Marvel universe.

https://i.postimg.cc/r0sZ5qw1/image.jpg

This was published in 2011, so after Thanos Imperative. Thanos never said it was Galactus who wiped the galaxy clean which is ridiculous because we later see most of the planets in the galaxy intact.

Horrificus
Prime.

Mindset
Didn't know GalacticStorm was still alive.

Damborgson
You're slipping. I've never heard of anyone escaping your pleasure palace.

Mindset
Must've hid inside Marwash's corpse.

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.