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1. Sabers
2. Force
3. All-out

Ventress is just better at everything. It's a decent fight, but Jinn runs out of steam and dies.

Ventress in all three. Qui-Gon just doesn't stack up.

Idk about sabers though; Jinn had a thorough understanding of how to face a Makashi wielder, and Ventress was clearly a lot sloppier than Dooku. This, along with Jinn's superior strength and experience leads me to believe that he's a cut above her in lightsaber dueling.

I may be wrong though, thoughts?

Jinn has less experience though... and Ventress constantly contending with Anakin and Kenobi - sometimes together - is a superior display of strength than anything we've seen from Qui-Gon, considering their strength feats trump his.

Originally posted by RealistRacism
Ventress is just better at everything. It's a decent fight, but Jinn runs out of steam and dies.

Originally posted by RealistRacism
Jinn has less experience though... and Ventress constantly contending with Anakin and Kenobi - sometimes together - is a superior display of strength than anything we've seen from Qui-Gon, considering their strength feats trump his.

How is being the apprentice of the greatest Makashi user of the era (and arguably of most other era's save the ancient Sith) not count as considerable experience? Or that Jinn reguarly sparred and bested the temple Battlemaster, and is considered one of the greatest duelists in the Jedi Order? Jinn has a tonne of experience sparring against high level duelists, including Dooku himself. Dooku was able to identify every weakness of Ataru. Jinn clearly wasn't able to do the same with Makashi, since the latter is technically superior to the former, but Jinn would have a deep and thorough knowledge of Makashi due to regualr sparring matches with Dooku over decades of training. Jinn would therefore have a significant knowledge of how to undermine a Makashi user, especially one like Ventress who is noted to be considerably sloppier than Dooku. If Jinn could contend with Darth Maul's Juyo style and put him off balance - at least temporarily, I fail to see how a Dark Adept nowhere close to Dooku's mastery of Makashi could definitively beat Jinn in sabers.

Jinn has generic "Most skilled" and "Best ever" accolades given out to nearly all PT force wielders with a name, big deal. Every single Jedi in the Order has a lot of experience sparring against high level duelists, but that doesn't mean they are in any way comparable.

Yes but Asajj's Makashi isn't really textbook... It's basically just Ataru/Niman. Regardless, you could argue that Jinn may pick up on her form and potentially exploit certain weaknesses, but I'd wager that she could do the same. Considering that form IV was among the most popular during the PT era, and the fact that Ventress herself has likely mastered it, plus she's fought notable practitioners of the form; Ahsoka Tano, Quinlan Vos, likely others I can't think of right now. There's just as much reason to believe that Ventress knows Ataru inside and out, as there is Jinn knowing a lot about Makashi.

But we're going into really autistic logistical edges that Qui-Gon possibly has (but likely doesn't), when instead we should be looking at Asajj's far better feats, namely;
- Matching/Defeating early-mid TCW Anakin Skywalker on multiple occasions.
- Easily defending against Mace Windu's strength with one hand, despite his momentum and superior leverage.
- Defeating Kit Fisto before her prime.
- Contending with/matching early-mid TCW Obi-Wan.

There are more, but these really should be enough to cement her as solidly above Qui-Gon.

If we're talking about the most skilled swordsmen, I should mention that alongside briefly contending with Mace far before her prime, she's also a confirmed superior to Sora Bulq (Being Dooku's deadliest agent according to multiple sources); "One of the greatest Lightsaber instructors the Jedi Order had ever known."

Jinn may have contended with Maul, but that was largely due to Maul having to divide his attention between two opponents and Qui-Gon getting time to meditate, which made him 'fresh' enough to briefly get the upper-hand. In this situation however, those factors aren't present, so all Ventress needs to do is drag on the fight until he tires, and victory is assured.

Ventress.

Jinn, decent fight.

Ventress great fight

Originally posted by TheIndyJedi
Ventress great fight

Probably split. Not sure who gets the majority. Probably Ventress if we go by feats/showings.

Would love to see both of Dookus favourite apprentices go at it.

Ventress wins easily, remember Jinn died long before the Clone Wars, everybody got much better during the Wars due to constant fighting. Qui Gon was barely able to contend with Maul 10 years earlier, he's not on that Clone Wars combatant level by default. He loses badly.

Originally posted by Jaggarath
Jinn, decent fight.
gay

Originally posted by relentless1
Ventress wins easily, remember Jinn died long before the Clone Wars, everybody got much better during the Wars due to constant fighting. Qui Gon was barely able to contend with Maul 10 years earlier, he's not on that Clone Wars combatant level by default. He loses badly.


I dont know that Everyone Got Better.

But Maul was solidly above Ventress and the majority of the Council regardless.

I'll be replying sometime tomorrow, I will still argue for Jinn in at least sabers. I'm new, so I'm not sure how my debating skills will play out, hopefully I can do a good defence.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
I dont know that Everyone Got Better.

But Maul was solidly above Ventress and the majority of the Council regardless.
Everyone absolutely got better, and Ventress was above most of the Council as well... We all know you and Ant are taking Jinn's side because of your shared disliking of Dooku

I used to dislike Dooku, but after reading the Plagueis novel I've gained respect for him.

Is it because TPM Sheev was worried that Dooku might take him out even before any dark side training?

Not really. I see Sheev as a pragmatist that views anything even remotely close to him in power as a substantial threat.

Originally posted by RealistRacism
Everyone absolutely got better, and Ventress was above most of the Council as well... We all know you and Ant are taking Jinn's side because of your shared disliking of Dooku


Proof that Everyone Absolutely got better at a time when the Jedi were already at the height of their powers..

Hmm interesting, so which Council Members has Ventress taken again? Koon? Nope. Mundi? Nope.

There was Fisto I guess, barely after AOTC, and after studying his moves first.

Edit: dont get what this has to do with Dooku. Dooku trained them both.

There's a difference between Sheev speaking loosely about future threats to his power (Ventress), a coup to remove him from power, or his underling taking an Apprentice of their own to overthrow him (Vader), and Sheev feeling threatened that someone could immediately draw him out to a confrontation (Like Dooku in the Plagueis Novel)- which he isn't sure he'd win.

This isn't the same as the Vader and Ventress situations.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Proof that Everyone Absolutely got better at a time when the Jedi were already at the height of their powers..

Hmm interesting, so which Council Members has Ventress taken again? Koon? Nope. Mundi? Nope.

There was Fisto I guess, barely after AOTC, and after studying his moves first.
The Jedi were at the height of their powers, in the PT era as a whole... Dooku, the really old man, was growing in strength throughout the Clone War, as was Ahsoka, Anakin, Mace, Kenobi etc. Obviously the rest of the Council aren't all prodigies, so the rate of growth wouldn't be as fast, but the fact that a man nearly on his death bed was still increasing - despite not being active on the battlefield - in power tells us that it's highly likely his younger comrades were also.

We can scale her off Fisto, Bulq and mid-TCW Kenobi + Anakin, who I'm sure you'd agree, are above a majority of the Council.

Studying his moves? Fisto's whole style is built around unpredictability, so he isn't going to be using the same exact moves against Ventress as he was against droids and X'Tings... So what did she really find out about Kit? That he uses Shii-Cho? Combatants are able to figure out the form of an opponent within the first few seconds of a fight, so her supposed 'advantage' is essentially non-existent.

Originally posted by Darth Thor

Edit: dont get what this has to do with Dooku. Dooku trained them both.
Putting Asajj below Jinn means that Maul, even as of TPM, is easily above her, which is retarded. The obvious implication being; Maul's closer to Dooku than Ventress, which is hilarious.

Originally posted by RealistRacism
Putting Asajj below Jinn means that Maul, even as of TPM, is easily above her, which is retarded. The obvious implication being; Maul's closer to Dooku than Ventress, which is hilarious.


Okay that's some crazy mental gymnastics, which my mind did not even go to. Like at all.

First of there's not much difference in the different incarnations of Maul. But TPM Maul would almost certainly be above Revenge Maul who could clearly hold his own against Ventress just fine.

Ergo Maul is above Qui-Gon and he's above Ventress and he's above Grievous (yes deal). ROTS Kenobi is also solidly above those guys, and easily =/> any version of Maul, yet he still couldn't do much against Dooku.

Fact is Dooku would most likely defeat Kenobi and Ventress together, whilst Maul can't even take ROTS Obi-Wan alone. So I see no need to get defensive over Dooku in a Qui-Gon vs Ventress thread. They are both in approx the same tier as Fisto regardless of who you put above who.

How could you possibly base Maul's superiority to Ventress on a fight like that? He was going against Kenobi for nearly the entirety of the duel... and we only have a few seconds of Asajj vs Maul to go off, so how do you reach a conclusion? You really can't. If we want to go into that, Asajj kicks Maul in the face twice and he doesn't land a single hit.

There's literally no line of scaling that indicates Jinn >/= Ventress >/= Grievous. If Asajj is in the same tier as Fisto, then he's at the bottom and she's at the top.

And who was she fighting for most that fight? Opress, to kind of a stalemate. No shame in that, as we know Opress can even take Plo Koon. But we know by the very next episode Maul > Opress. Point being even in Mauls first sword fight in over a decade, she still did not seem like she was beyond him or anything.

Well we have literally seen fights between Grievous and Ventress go back and forth. Obviously Qui-Gon is harder to pin down, but he has some hype and accolades, and I see no reason to put Ventress in another tier to him. But yeah you might be right about Ventress being top of her tier alongside Greivous.

Either way Dooku could quite comfortably take these guys double teaming him. So its got nothing to do with his placement.

She was on the losing end to Opress because of his monumental strength, which is something that Maul doesn't have. Sure, Maul knows how to undermine it - evidently better than Asajj - but there's no disputing that he doesn't share his brother's physical power and thus, can't dominate her in the same way.

This was Season 4 correct? The Maul that you claim is weak? So to top it off, Savage is probably better than him at the time of this fight, which renders your scaling useless.

Yes we have... and Grievous is always made out to be her superior. So where is Ventress >/= GG coming from?

That's fine then, but I still dispute Jinn/Fisto = Ventress.

To just add to my points in a more summative matter, we know that TPM Maul > Jinn, and I haven't seen anything that shows Ventress > TPM Maul, so it isn't as clear cut.

Easy now, youngling. You're wrong, but that doesn't mean that you're trash.

At least two other members agree with me, so I'm not entirely alone here

Originally posted by Meatpants
At least two other members agree with me, so I'm not entirely alone here
True, but remember lesson 101: appealing to popularity doesn't make something true.

I only mean in that I'm not coming out with this weird-ass view that nobody else holds.

Originally posted by Meatpants
I only mean in that I'm not coming out with this weird-ass view that nobody else holds.
I suppose being weird together is better than being weird alone. Keep at it, meatypants.

Originally posted by Meatpants
To just add to my points in a more summative matter, we know that TPM Maul > Jinn, and I haven't seen anything that shows Ventress > TPM Maul, so it isn't as clear cut.


TPM Maul > Ventress no question.

@Selenial

Dooku undoubtedly regarded Qui Gon extremely highly. We have quotes from the likes of Obi Wan who IIRC has stated that he doesn't know of anybody stronger than Qui Gon aside from Yoda or Mace as a padawan, so it is likely Dooku too thought of Qui Gon as a legitimate apprentice( kind of how Banite Sith masters view their apprentices), not a pawn like Ventress there. Also, the way their sparring is mentioned in the ROTS novel, it is a lot like how Obi Wan and Anakin sparred( i.e. thousands of hours to the point where you know the other's movements intimately).

In conjunction with everything, and how Dooku himself remarked on Qui Gon when he was the padawan and the simple observation that Dooku and Qui Gon sparred during many decades, I think meatpants has some merit to this claim.

I mean, Dooku can grill Ventress all he wants there. I don't view that grilling advancing Ventress to nearly the same degree a true master would instruct his apprentice, in a way that maximizes their learning and helps them achieve their potential. By everything we know on their interactions with each other, Dooku most likely thought of Qui Gon the same way Qui Gon thought on Obi Wan or Obi Wan on Anakin or how a Banite Sith master would view their apprentice( in the Jedi way) and trained or sparred with him likewise

@Selenial



As LordOfTheLight and Darth Thor have pointed out, the relationship between Dooku and Qui-Gon was that of learning over time in a meaningful way. A favorite quote of mine from Darth Baras applies here: "Only full immersion over time produces results." This is applicable whether we look at it from the light or dark sides of the force. Ventress has potential, sure, and Dooku spars with her, but her training is for the most part instinctual and informal, and over a way shorter period of time. Qui-Gon would have been Dooku's apprentice for at least a decade, I'm not entirely sure about the exact timing. I mean, this even applies to Darth Maul, who was trained and honed over time to produce an incredibly deadly assassin, well ahead of Ventress. Why? He had formal and rigorous training for a particular set of skills from a very early age.



Well, there's apparently pretty strong evidence to suggest that Bondara was the Temple lightsaber instructor. It's quite safe to assume that Bondara was at least a technical master in all forms. Anyway, my point is that Jinn was definitively above Bondara, a Jedi Weaponmaster and Juyo specialist. He was also definitively council tier, considered one of the best swordsmen in the order, and Dooku revered his skills highly for a reason.

Additionally, in an all-out fight, I don't think Ventress could win against any council member, let alone even TCW Kenobi or Anakin.

Adding in this quote as well:

Jinn was generally regarded as one of the best pure swordsmen the Order had ever seen.

The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

Also, in order to reinforce my point on Jinn's understanding of Makashi against that of Ventress' to Ataru, this quote is quite useful:

Qui-Gon Jinn's lightsaber may not be as ornate as that of his mentor, Count Dooku, but true to his rebellious ways, he used it to master the same classical fighting techniques as well as untraditional combat forms from across the galaxy.

Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force

This strongly infers that Qui-Gon mastered Makashi as a lightsaber form.

Originally posted by RealistRacism
gay
The amount of statements saying Jinn's the strongest Jedi in the galaxy as of TPM has to count for something, lmao.

Maybe not much, but I'm willing to arbitrarily put it above Ventress-tier.

My stance is more than just generalised quotes like being one of the best pure swordsmen in the history of the order, to be fair.

Originally posted by Jaggarath
The amount of statements saying Jinn's the strongest Jedi in the galaxy as of TPM has to count for something, lmao.

Maybe not much, but I'm willing to arbitrarily put it above Ventress-tier. Wait; what?

Originally posted by Geistalt
Wait; what? Probably some EXTREMELY overexaggerated quotes.

Originally posted by Jaggarath
Maybe not much, but I'm willing to arbitrarily put it above Ventress-tier.

Clearly.

How does that help your Bondara scaling? Jinn's above a great Instructor, and so was Ventress...? You've lost your main scaling here

I hope this all didn't sound too confrontational or harsh...

I could keep responding, but I realised that Ventress has so much content that it'll just overwhelm Jinn's accolades through sheer numbers, so I'll concede the argument officially, but I don't think Ventress > Jinn.

Originally posted by Jaggarath
The amount of statements saying Jinn's the strongest Jedi in the galaxy as of TPM has to count for something, lmao.
Please share.

Ventres solidly

Originally posted by Meatpants
I could keep responding, but I realised that Ventress has so much content that it'll just overwhelm Jinn's accolades through sheer numbers, so I'll concede the argument officially, but I don't think Ventress > Jinn.


Pretty much this yeah.

Heck I think Fisto's had more exposure than Qui-Gon. But he put up a solid fight against a Maul at the peak of his combat training.

And IIRC Ventress has never stomped/solidly beaten Council Members with the exception of Fisto that one time, where apparently Fisto >> Obi-Wan > Ventress > Fisto.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
10/04/2017
Darth Maul is the guy who battered Qui-Gon Jinn

Originally posted by Darth Thor
24/08/2018
Maul has handed both Qui-Gon Jinn and Anoon Bondara their butts

Originally posted by Darth Thor
19/12/2018
he put up a solid fight against a Maul at the peak of his combat training

Changed your mind Thor? Or do you just switch positions when it suits?

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Pretty much this yeah.

Heck I think Fisto's had more exposure than Qui-Gon. But he put up a solid fight against a Maul at the peak of his combat training.

And IIRC Ventress has never stomped/solidly beaten Council Members with the exception of Fisto that one time, where apparently Fisto >> Obi-Wan > Ventress > Fisto.

IIRC he was also injured so her victory may have been circumstantial

You mean his sore heel? lol

He had a burn on his heel. The injury may seem negligible at first glance but a heel burn could really throw of your performance in combat. It damages the speed of which your feet move, how much pressure you can apply into the ground etc

Ventress is > Fisto anyway but I just wanted to highlight something that is often overlooked by you,my children :/

Kit had no reaction to it... at all. It was 'singed' which is defined as a 'superficial burn.'

No hinderance, Fisto still sucks

Balance is important in saber fights. Also, didn't Fisto get jumped with no preparation or anything? Plus facing a determined Makashi duelist as a Form I dipshit? Idk man, I don't think Ventress is council tier. She could contend with a lot of them, but she'd ultimately lose. That's my opinion.

Who, me?

No my child

Ventress literally beats Council Members, contends with duelists above Council Members, and yet... she won't be able to win?

She defeated Fisto, who's better than at least half the Council. Kit had a superficial wound on the heel of one foot, and all of a sudden it's 'muh circumstances.'

Didn't she prep for it? And Fisto feels overrated anyway.

She basically just watched Kit kill X'Tings for a few seconds to find out his form, which isn't a real advantage at all. Combatants typically work out the opponent's style near instantly.

Fisto's style definitely does disadvantage him. He still lasted longer than Kolar and Tiin against Sidious though, or maybe that's just because Sidious chose the former two to kill first.

It only disadvantages him against certain people

The B-team members are all relatively equal in my eyes

Lmao, based on what is Kit's mastery even close to Dooku's?

hush lil peep

What you probably meant was that Dooku was better at Form I than Fisto.

It's true though, Dooku would probably 3-shot Fisto the majority of rounds tbh (in sabers).