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Who wins

Who or what is TOBA Hulk?

An alt future hulk that was possessed by TOBA and ate a lot of alt cosmic characters.

Originally posted by Adam Grimes
An alt future hulk that was possessed by TOBA and ate a lot of alt cosmic characters.

Based on?

Originally posted by Stoic
Based on? What? Did you not read the most recent two issues of Immortal Hulk? Which part are you disputing?

SV Superman stomps, spite thread

Originally posted by NemeBro
What? Did you not read the most recent two issues of Immortal Hulk? Which part are you disputing? He's disputing the fact that it's an alternate future... Even though it very clearly IS. That's how Marvel cosmology is laid out: future events = alternate events by default.



And to further drive that point home: right now, in current publication, we have witnessed two completely different renditions of Marvel's 'end', in two completely different titles: "Immortal Hulk", and "History of the Marvel Universe".

In the IH issues, Hulk is the last being remaining at the end of all things, and he had already killed Franklin Richards and Galactus billionS of years prior:
http://i.imgur.com/PAq7ngFm.jpg http://i.imgur.com/LeNqzUam.jpg http://i.imgur.com/GfG0bNPm.jpg http://i.imgur.com/pjGVTc3m.jpg


Yet in HotMU, it is Franklin and Galactus who are the final beings remaining at the end of all things, and will usher in the next cosmos:
http://i.imgur.com/GdeYLPGm.jpg http://i.imgur.com/cOBlwmmm.jpg


IOW, even current Marvel is giving us two completely different takes on how the existing creation ends... So which 'end of all things' do we go by? Or should we do the more logical thing and assume they are both taking place in alternate futures(which, as I said, is already an established concept in Marvel)..?

I've read the issues yeah, though I ask if it functionally makes a difference? Would you consider the Franklin he ate for example to be representative of the one whose feats we had seen up to at least current Marvel?

It's basically a What If that's showing us what happens in 'x' alternate timeline when Hulk reigns supreme at the end of things. Could the Franklin in that timeline be just as powerful as he is in mainstream 616? Absolutely. Is there any way to know for sure? Not really(unless it's clarified in subsequent issues or w/e.)

srug

I don't see why Franklin wouldn't be as strong tbh, they are both alternate futures that originate from the same 616 universe, unless it was stated that Franklin list power in one of those aktwebate futures

But we don't know HOW he did it, which makes it suspect as a battle feat.

Well he did reach out and eat the source of Galactus' power like a bag of chips. Do you really want to go that route DS? Despite all of the hype surrounding a few characters with very few combat feats that are touted as beings of great power. Or, maybe Franklin packed a suitcase and decided to willingly jump right into TOBA's mouth?

The route I am going is consistent with how the forum treats future versions of characters.

How do we know, for example, that Superman 1M can likely do what Current Superman can? We are explicitly told and shown his power level (iirc he even recreated Lois etc from DNA).

What about Old Man Logan? He's explicitly the same (up to a specific point) as Current Logan - but he's older, slower, weaker. Doe we give him the same feats as Current? No.

Do the Franklin and Galactus that TOBA ate get the same feats? Are they a S1M or an OML? We cannot say.

We go with what we've seen and read. He said he killed them all. We see that he is easily able to destroy planets. I'm pretty sure that this didn't have to be explained to you right?

Originally posted by Stoic
Based on?
Based on that it's a future that takes place "eons from now," i.e. it's a future that has not yet taken place.

https://i.imgur.com/6Hqbb7Fm.jpg

From Immortal Hulk #24.

Originally posted by Astner
Based on that it's a future that takes place "eons from now," i.e. it's a future that has not yet taken place.

https://i.imgur.com/6Hqbb7Fm.jpg

From Immortal Hulk #24.

Did you read Galan's scan. My question stemmed from the scrutiny that several posters attempted to place on TOBA. They attempted to invalidate the idea that TOBA was extremely powerful, while not placing the same level of scrutiny on several other questionable characters. Even being an alternate future doesn't give anyone reason to allude to the idea that the beings that he killed were any weaker than the original ones are.

Originally posted by Stoic
We go with what we've seen and read. He said he killed them all. We see that he is easily able to destroy planets. I'm pretty sure that this didn't have to be explained to you right?

So we didn't see anything from the characters he killed, gotcha.

Doesn't give you the go ahead to invalidate him killing them, or imagining them to be weaker than their 616 selves of the past. We did see him devour the entity that made Galactus, Galactus. He killed it with ease.

Originally posted by Stoic
Doesn't give you the go ahead to invalidate him killing them, or imagining them to be weaker than their 616 selves of the past. We did see him devour the entity that made Galactus, Galactus. He killed it with ease.

Nor does it give you the go ahead to imagine them being the same or stronger. As I said, we don't know if they became stronger (S1M) or weaker (OML).

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Nor does it give you the go ahead to imagine them being the same or stronger. As I said, we don't know if they became stronger (S1M) or weaker (OML).

Sure it does until stated otherwise . I never said stronger. I said the same.

Originally posted by Stoic
Sure it does until stated otherwise . I never said stronger. I said the same.

Ok,or even the same. And no, we don't. Because we have no idea on the future versions - this is a consistent forum logic.

Are they the same? No idea. Otherwise, you might as well assume alt. Universe characters are all the same until proven otherwise - Injustice Superman is the same as Earth 1 until proven otherwise, and all his feats (pushing Mogo, the Guardians etc into the Sun etc ) are the same as if canon Superman did theM.

DCeased Superman is exactly the same.

Even Red Son Supeman. He moved ' ten times faster than thought' when going up against a GL (Hal, no less). Up until he crash landed in the USSR, EVERYTHING in the Red Son universe was the same.

We don't give each other their feats, even when not shown explicitly.

TOBA is a 616 version of the Hulk. He isn't from an alternate universe like Injustice Superman. He's shares the very same past as Immortal Hulk who was vomit stricken by the Abomination meat puppet. It only becomes an alternate future because Hulk somehow chooses to walk the path of complete destruction. Tell you what, why don't you jump on over to the TOAA vs TOBA thread and attempt to invalidate it.

Injustice had the exact same past as Earth 1 Supes, up until he killed the Joker.

Marvel Zombies shared it's past with pre-Galactus Marvel. Should I draw feats from there as well, Stoic?

bum superman still wins

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Ok,or even the same. And no, we don't. Because we have no idea on the future versions - this is a consistent forum logic.

Are they the same? No idea. Otherwise, you might as well assume alt. Universe characters are all the same until proven otherwise - Injustice Superman is the same as Earth 1 until proven otherwise, and all his feats (pushing Mogo, the Guardians etc into the Sun etc ) are the same as if canon Superman did theM.

DCeased Superman is exactly the same.

Even Red Son Supeman. He moved ' ten times faster than thought' when going up against a GL (Hal, no less). Up until he crash landed in the USSR, EVERYTHING in the Red Son universe was the same.

We don't give each other their feats, even when not shown explicitly.

Was it you that applied the Mad Celestials' vulnerability to a certain attack to 616 Celestials?

It was me.

Because Reed said it was a weakness of Celestials. Not Mad Celestials specifically

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
It was me.

Because Reed said it was a weakness of Celestials. Not Mad Celestials specifically

An alternate Reed says this.

Did he say it was specific to the Mad Celestials? Simple question.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Did he say it was specific to the Mad Celestials? Simple question.

No more than he extends it to all Celestials in all realities. 616 Reed is oblivious to this notion. Why would that be?

Originally posted by TheHulkster
No more than he extends it to all Celestials in all realities. 616 Reed is oblivious to this notion. Why would that be?

In another thread, it is being argued that this Surfer is no more that mainstream Surfer. Do you disagree?

He says: 'convenient when Celestials bleed energy'. Not 'these Celestials' or any specifics attached.

So yes, all Celestials in all realities.

In another thread, I am arguing that yes it's an alternate Surfer and thus...... different. Proof can also be seen in Thanos' words, that Young Thanos has NEVER met a guy like this before.

Iow, different.

Sorry Hulkster, you're not nearly as clever as you try to make out.

Edit: you've removed the Surfer reference. Now why would that be?

https://i.postimg.cc/GtBQgLQ2/tumblr-myzidz-Rv-LQ1slp6vso2-1280.jpg

Apologies, the words were 'damned effective when Celestials bleed energy'.

Could work. Very good chance. But still alt Celestials i guess.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Could work. Very good chance. But still alt Celestials i guess.

But as said, Celestials bleed energy. It is common across all Celestials - no defining specifications were given.

It's like saying humans bleed haemoglobin- then you saying actually, we don't know if Flashpoint Thomas Wayne bleeds like Bruce Wayne. Because alt. human.

Therefore, Thomas Wayne is immune to Magneto's powers.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
He says: 'convenient when Celestials bleed energy'. Not 'these Celestials' or any specifics attached.

So yes, all Celestials in all realities.

In another thread, I am arguing that yes it's an alternate Surfer and thus...... different. Proof can also be seen in Thanos' words, that Young Thanos has NEVER met a guy like this before.

Iow, different.

Sorry Hulkster, you're not nearly as clever as you try to make out.

Edit: you've removed the Surfer reference. Now why would that be?

That reference was meant for another thread.

Of Course, your first answer is milarky.. Nothing quantitative is given one way or the other and his targets are alternate Celestials. His frame of reference is his native universe and the Reed who would most know about 616 Celestials is unfamiliar with any such attack.

You referenced alternate Celestials to low-ball 616 Celestials.

And it's not about bleeding energy. Antimonitor bleeds energy. Every similar type being bleeds energy. It's his reference to effectiveness. That's based on alts.

Except aren't they a part of the Council of Reed's, and thus has encountered more than one Universe's worth of Celestials?

In any case, the sentence still stands. Effective when Celestials bleed energy.

Not a low-ball when it's a defining trait, any more so than saying humans bleed blood is somehow low-ballling.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But as said, Celestials bleed energy. It is common across all Celestials - no defining specifications were given.

It's like saying humans bleed haemoglobin- then you saying actually, we don't know if Flashpoint Thomas Wayne bleeds like Bruce Wayne. Because alt. human.

Therefore, Thomas Wayne is immune to Magneto's powers.
Ure comparing real life humans to Celestials. Bro... For one theyre comicbook characters. Second they are pretty up there in the enigmatic scale as comicbook beings go. Saying this before u go comparing comic humans to Celestials... Im just affording them the same conditions as far as alt characters go. I wouldnt mind if u say they are roughly the same level as 616 Celestials, but i wouldnt give a straight pass when it comes to specific things like this situation.

Originally posted by TheHulkster
And it's not about bleeding energy. Antimonitor bleeds energy. Every similar type being bleeds energy. It's his reference to effectiveness. That's based on alts.

Erm....Anti monitor bleeds entropy.

The Entropy gun works against energy, fullstop. It would work against anything that bled energy.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Ure comparing real life humans to Celestials. Bro... For one theyre comicbook characters. Second they are pretty up there in the enigmatic scale as comicbook beings go. Saying this before u go comparing comic humans to Celestials... Im just affording them the same conditions as far as alt characters go. I wouldnt mind if u say they are roughly the same level as 616 Celestials, but i wouldnt give a straight pass when it comes to specific things like this situation.

Agreed.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Ure comparing real life humans to Celestials. Bro... For one theyre comicbook characters. Second they are pretty up there in the enigmatic scale as comicbook beings go. Saying this before u go comparing comic humans to Celestials... Im just affording them the same conditions as far as alt characters go. I wouldnt mind if u say they are roughly the same level as 616 Celestials, but i wouldnt give a straight pass when it comes to specific things like this situation.

And Bruce Wayne/Thomas Wayne arent comic book humans? Magneto and his magnetism?

But sure.

I have a red sun rad gun. When fired, it drives out and replaces yellow sun radiation with red. Pretty handy when dealing with Kryptonians...

Oh wait, per your logic, until shown, alt universe Kryptonians don't rely on solar radiation.

You and Hulkster have it the wrong way round. Until shown that they're in some way different, we assume they're the same when given a statement that doesn't give specifics and blanket statements all characters of that type.

Nope. Not gonna do that. As far as alt universe chars go, i go only as far as to put them around same balllpark or general vicinity in terms of power lev... Ofcourse until shown clearly otherwise. For more specific stuff, Ill keep my reservations. In the end these werent main univ celestials. Not gonna assign feats or in this case antifeats to both even they are quite conceivable.

Well I'm not going after specifics.

The text is as clear as day. The Entropy gun worked because it reacts with energy.

And Celestials bleed energy. Simple. Clear. I don't add anything, and neither should you or anyone. If 616 Celestials are shown to be different, by all means.

I love how Celestials are all unique and special...

But a Kryptonian and a magical clay construct are compatible enough to have children.

why bump spite thread

Originally posted by MrMind
why bump spite thread

Just in case Hulkster forgot how hypocritical he is.

Also, how useless he is at debating.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Just in case Hulkster forgot how hypocritical he is.

Also, how useless he is at debating.

ah I see

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
And Bruce Wayne/Thomas Wayne arent comic book humans? Magneto and his magnetism?

But sure.

I have a red sun rad gun. When fired, it drives out and replaces yellow sun radiation with red. Pretty handy when dealing with Kryptonians...

Oh wait, per your logic, until shown, alt universe Kryptonians don't rely on solar radiation.

You and Hulkster have it the wrong way round. Until shown that they're in some way different, we assume they're the same when given a statement that doesn't give specifics and blanket statements all characters of that type.

DS, were Galactus, and Franklin explicitly explained to be different in the Immortal Hulk, than their 616 selves? If so, what was different about them?

I quoted you because of the latter words of your statement. Does this extend to TOBA?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Just in case Hulkster forgot how hypocritical he is.

Also, how useless he is at debating.

Hypocrites are incapable of seeing their own hypocrisy.

Originally posted by Stoic
DS, were Galactus, and Franklin explicitly explained to be different in the Immortal Hulk, than their 616 selves? If so, what was different about them?

I quoted you because of the latter words of your statement. Does this extend to TOBA?

They weren't given a blanket statement, were they?

Originally posted by MrMind
why bump spite thread

He's crying.

Not really