Hal v Mogo

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.



leonidas
mogo gets loads of lip-service from people and the corps. but hal is widely considered by....everyone to be the greatest, most powerful of the lanterns. let's say hal is....very determined to take mogo down. can he win in a battle against the living planet?

Galan007
Hal.

abhilegend
Originally posted by leonidas
mogo gets loads of lip-service from people and the corps. but hal is widely considered by....everyone to be the greatest, most powerful of the lanterns. let's say hal is....very determined to take mogo down. can he win in a battle against the living planet?
Kyle with Hal's ring was about to destroy Mogo by accident.

And Mogo doesn't just gets lip service, he is ****ing powerful.

leonidas
well of course he is--the corps repeatedly say he is the most powerful. but not powerful enough that he can't be almost accidentally killed by hal's ring.... which scales nicely for you. thumb up

Galan007
https://i.imgur.com/D4tQANe.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/uetpAOu.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/uJ8c5fy.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/ASW0duH.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/f6nH25f.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/e8NtpSj.jpg

It shows you how far above even top-tier Lanterns Hal is, when Kyle barely managed to control his ring/willpower initially(and that was AFTER Hal had literally willed his ring over to him.) Additionally, the ring actually started asserting Hal's will into Kyle's own consciousness.

...Never mind the fact that Kyle almost indirectly blew apart HQ/Mogo just trying to contain the power of Hal's ring.

leonidas
now this is a serious question--how do you reconcile the fact that hal's ring (assuming you take john's comment at face value) has enough power to 'accidentally' destroy mogo, yet hal himself was treated like a child by orion? that would mean--literally--that orion is many times more powerful than hal, who is orders of magnitude more powerful than mogo.... how does any of that make any sense? blink

Philosophía
Hal.

Originally posted by Galan007
https://i.imgur.com/D4tQANe.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/uetpAOu.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/uJ8c5fy.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/ASW0duH.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/f6nH25f.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/e8NtpSj.jpg

It shows you how far above even top-tier Lanterns Hal is, when Kyle barely managed to control his ring/willpower initially(and that was AFTER Hal had literally willed his ring over to him.) Additionally, the ring actually started asserting Hal's will into Kyle's own consciousness.

...Never mind the fact that Kyle almost indirectly blew apart HQ/Mogo just trying to contain the power of Hal's ring. thumb up

Hal has become so powerful over time that he makes even Kyle, who is legit the second most powerful, look like a noob, lol.

abhilegend
Originally posted by leonidas
now this is a serious question--how do you reconcile the fact that hal's ring (assuming you take john's comment at face value) has enough power to 'accidentally' destroy mogo, yet hal himself was treated like a child by orion? that would mean--literally--that orion is many times more powerful than hal, who is orders of magnitude more powerful than mogo.... how does any of that make any sense? blink
Hal has been compared to a guardian now in power and guardians outright said that new gods are more powerful than them.

abhilegend
Originally posted by leonidas
well of course he is--the corps repeatedly say he is the most powerful. but not powerful enough that he can't be almost accidentally killed by hal's ring.... which scales nicely for you. thumb up
I'm sorry but this petulance is just juvenile.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by leonidas
now this is a serious question--how do you reconcile the fact that hal's ring (assuming you take john's comment at face value) has enough power to 'accidentally' destroy mogo, yet hal himself was treated like a child by orion? that would mean--literally--that orion is many times more powerful than hal, who is orders of magnitude more powerful than mogo.... how does any of that make any sense? blink

Because comics?

The times, they are a-changing, Leo.

leonidas
Originally posted by abhilegend
I'm sorry but this petulance is just juvenile.

yeah, probably, but it serves to illustrate the...absurdity of what you're trying to say. there is no way to reconcile it. the only way to do it (as regards orion for example) is to say when he met hal it was a terribly low feat for hal, or that orion is...far and away more powerful than a guardian. it simply doesn't track.

there have ALWAYS been inconsistencies in comics--highs and lows--but it feels more and more like HIGH FEATS are being viewed as the norm when it used to be that high feats were recognized for what they are. problem with that thinking is it leads to absurd conclusions like orion>>>a skyfather. it makes having rationale discussion almost impossible. but maybe rationale discussion is a thing of the past in the forum. /shrug

DarkSaint85
Which the New Gods are meant to be?

I mean, like you said, this isn't even Orion's best feat. So not sure what the madness is about

abhilegend
Originally posted by leonidas
yeah, probably, but it serves to illustrate the...absurdity of what you're trying to say. there is no way to reconcile it. the only way to do it (as regards orion for example) is to say when he met hal it was a terribly low feat for hal, or that orion is...far and away more powerful than a guardian. it simply doesn't track.

there have ALWAYS been inconsistencies in comics--highs and lows--but it feels more and more like HIGH FEATS are being viewed as the norm when it used to be that high feats were recognized for what they are. problem with that thinking is it leads to absurd conclusions like orion>>>a skyfather. it makes having rationale discussion almost impossible. but maybe rationale discussion is a thing of the past in the forum. /shrug
I'm not sure what you are saying here. Orion has literally 72 appearances in New 52 (Wonder Woman series in 2011 was retconned as false memories and Mr Miracle was shown as an alternate reality).

https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Orion_(Prime_Earth)/Appearances

If we remove that, he has barely 30-35 appearances in the last decade where he

Stalemated Superman
Completely stomped Hal
Completely stomped Mogo
Is outright stated to be more powerful than Guardians
Destroyed a solar system just by shockwaves of his fight

How's this supposed to work, we pretend that these don't matter and Orion is just as powerful as before, because?

Adam Grimes
Originally posted by leonidas
yeah, probably, but it serves to illustrate the...absurdity of what you're trying to say. there is no way to reconcile it. the only way to do it (as regards orion for example) is to say when he met hal it was a terribly low feat for hal, or that orion is...far and away more powerful than a guardian. it simply doesn't track.

there have ALWAYS been inconsistencies in comics--highs and lows--but it feels more and more like HIGH FEATS are being viewed as the norm when it used to be that high feats were recognized for what they are. problem with that thinking is it leads to absurd conclusions like orion>>>a skyfather. it makes having rationale discussion almost impossible. but maybe rationale discussion is a thing of the past in the forum. /shrug It sounds the power creep makes you uncomfortable. Understandably so, I guess.

abhilegend
In comparison

In 60 years and across more than a thousand issues Odin has barely two or three galactic level feats, yet he is widely considered a galaxy level character and premier skyfather.

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/odin/4005-3507/

More than 2000 issues and Surfer has barely half dozen planetary feats, yet he is considered the highest herald. Don't start on the black hole level surfer lol.

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/silver-surfer/4005-2502/

These forums were always slanted towards high feats, don't kid yourself.

Philosophía
Originally posted by abhilegend
How's this supposed to work, we pretend that these don't matter Yes. We're in 2009. What are you, a time traveller?

Abhi created a treadmill confirmed.

abhilegend

AlbertoJohnAvil
Originally posted by abhilegend
I'm not sure what you are saying here. Orion has literally 72 appearances in New 52 (Wonder Woman series in 2011 was retconned as false memories and Mr Miracle was shown as an alternate reality).

https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Orion_(Prime_Earth)/Appearances

If we remove that, he has barely 30-35 appearances in the last decade where he

Stalemated Superman
Completely stomped Hal
Completely stomped Mogo
Is outright stated to be more powerful than Guardians
Destroyed a solar system just by shockwaves of his fight

How's this supposed to work, we pretend that these don't matter and Orion is just as powerful as before, because?

They're called high ends for a reason, he's not consistently portrayed at that level. Surfer IS, that's the big difference. Stop being bias towards marvel, it's getting old

Philosophía
Originally posted by abhilegend
Silver Surfer solos with a black hole in the brain, amirite?

Obviously. Marvel chars need 1 statement from a random mini series or 2 feats in 60 years.

DC chars need at least a decade of high showings and even then, it would still be irrational thumb up

You and your agenda abhi! I see what you are doing!

abhilegend

leonidas
Originally posted by abhilegend


These forums were always slanted towards high feats, don't kid yourself.

you could be right, but this type of thinking and debating makes it impossible to compare characters. how are low feats factored in? they're ignored? a non-holding back superman hit apex luthor and...knocked him back a ways. an enraged superman looked like he was going to hit dr manhattan but hit someone else and...sent him back a bit. why aren't those feats factored in? why don't they count as much as a "multiverse busting punch!1!"?

as far as odin--he has consistently been portrayed well above the average level of 'superhero'. THAT's why he's 'ranked' where he is. ss is typically shown to be well above the other heroes in marvel. that's why he's ranked where he is.

more goes into how a character is viewed than JUST FEATS

troll all you like--i don't think the basis of who these characters are has changed--at all.

Philosophía
Originally posted by leonidas
troll all you like--i don't think the basis of who these characters are has changed--at all. It's weird -- you're accusing him of trolling, when you seem to be in the minority here.

You seem to imply some sneakiness for him with the 'that works nicely for you' when, leo, it's not a matter of working nicely or not. It's a matter of how it works.

qwertyuiop1998
Originally posted by leonidas
you could be right, but this type of thinking and debating makes it impossible to compare characters. how are low feats factored in? they're ignored? a non-holding back superman hit apex luthor and...knocked him back a ways. an enraged superman looked like he was going to hit dr manhattan but hit someone else and...sent him back a bit. why aren't those feats factored in? why don't they count as much as a "multiverse busting punch!1!"?
We already settled how collateral damag should be viewed on this forum though
Originally posted by Galan007
But that's not the point.

In that scene there was literally zero collateral damage to Owen's apartment, despite the blast itself being powerful enough to destroy several billion entire dimensions:
https://i.ibb.co/h7sL0JY/24.jpg

So only trying to gauge the blast's potency based on the amount of collateral damage it caused would be faulty in that instance.


Here is another example...

A blast from Galactus actually harmed Thanos to an extent, despite ALL the defensive shielding of his ship being in place:
https://i.ibb.co/7N9Mjxm/Thanos-2003-2004-005-007.jpg https://i.ibb.co/ZNvPjYC/Thanos-2003-2004-005-008.jpg
...But the blast only caused very minor collateral damage to their surroundings(a small circular crater beneath Thanos, is all.)


Yet in the very same series, Thanos himself(without the aid of his ship's shielding) outright tanked the close-range planetary destruction of a gas giant without skipping a beat:
https://i.ibb.co/WFbXtvp/Thanos-2003-2004-012-017.jpg https://i.ibb.co/QNHLg0d/Thanos-2003-2004-012-018.jpg https://i.ibb.co/9ck1q3P/Thanos-2003-2004-012-020.jpg


So despite a lack of collateral damage in the first scene, we can still infer that the potency of Galactus's blast would have been =/> the explosion of the gas giant that Thanos tanked a few issues later.


tl;dr
Collateral damage is not always a reliable measuring stick when it comes to gauging the potency of energy attacks and such. Makes perfect sense that higher-end reality/energy manipulators would be able to concentrate and contain their attacks so that they still retain full potency, without causing any unwanted 'bleed-over' to their surroundings(ie. collateral damage.)
Originally posted by Galan007
I'm not discussing Perpetua's standing relative to the others. I am just helping explain why collateral damage isn't always an accurate way of approximating the power of an attack.

As the Owen/Beyonder and Galactus/Thanos scenes illustrate: a lack of collateral damage resulting from an attack doesn't automatically mean said attack wasn't immensely powerful.

Philosophía
Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
We already settled how collateral damag should be viewed on this forum though thumb up

Lack of collateral damage is not an expression of the power of the attack.

But feats of output/damage is a good feat in gauging how high an attack can go.

leonidas
yeah i wasn't really talking about abhi trolling. wink

but i'm not sure that's really how it's supposed to work. as far as i'm aware, we still look at a wider view, and regardless of how many high feats are shown, they are still balanced out by more standard levels. like i said, i think the focus on high feats is the most noticeable change in the way the forum works. that view skews character. but i'm not above admitting maybe it's just me. i really don't think the comics themselves have changed all that much. someone mentioned a 'power creep'. i'm not convinced there has been much of one--not based on the books i've read over the last couple years. but the focus on a few feats really makes it seem like there has been this huge jump. but if that's the direction the forum is taking, not much to be done about it. /shrug

Philosophía
I feel like I'm having the same discussion in two threads, lol.

Suffice to say -- there's been a massive power creep that a few posters have noticed as being quite blatant for some characters . There's a reason we go "God Hal" and shit lately -- it's because that's the way he's been portrayed for the last decade or so. Not all characters or even many have this , but it's there, to a certain extent.

As somebody who has read everything Superman, Green Lantern and New Gods for the last 40+ years, it's very noticeable in these 3 mythos. Even somebody like Lex Luthor is now absurd -- otherwise it would be a joke to have him be a threat.

abhilegend
Originally posted by leonidas
you could be right, but this type of thinking and debating makes it impossible to compare characters. how are low feats factored in? they're ignored? a non-holding back superman hit apex luthor and...knocked him back a ways. an enraged superman looked like he was going to hit dr manhattan but hit someone else and...sent him back a bit. why aren't those feats factored in? why don't they count as much as a "multiverse busting punch!1!"?

They should. Apex Luthor was powered by seven forces of the multiverse and was beyond the likes of Monitor, Anti Monitor and World Forger. A normal Superman fighting evenly with him is beyond stupid.



So is Darkseid and Mordru and most of DC skyfathers. Guardians have feats that shit on Odin's feats, yet they are never given the same consideration because "galaxy level Odin". For example a Guardian overpowering SBP is never given the same consideration as Thanos fighting Odin because?



Would you do the same for Darkseid and Guardians then?



Oh they have. If you think Superman is the same as post crisis version, you are deluded.

DeadpoolXXX
Originally posted by abhilegend
Hal has been compared to a guardian now in power and guardians outright said that new gods are more powerful than them. hal can go above a guardian's power though.

abhilegend
Not really.

qwertyuiop1998
Krona blasting huh ?
Though I agree hal isnt that powerful on average

DeadpoolXXX
killing krona is what i was thinking of also.

One Big Mob
Here's how I view/viewed it.

A confirmation bias was formed that the top tiers were essentially equal or that universes were balanced. The feats could largely be put in place to not so much convince myself but be used as a counter against others. So everything fit in fairly well for a time. Outliers here and there but everything could at least be matched up to some degree. That's not to say that I had everyone exactly equal mind you as I always had Superman above Hulk in strength, but it was what you would call a "tiering" of some sorts. I viewed/view it to what I figure the intention of writers would write in a comic and used feats to disregard the outliers/high feats. Fitting my headcanon in there with feats to make up differences.

As time went on, DC started pulling away, and pulling away badly. It didn't change my headcanon of how I view fights in my own mind as I feel the intention is still the same, but you can't in good faith actually match those feats; made worse by Marvel never advancing and even devolving if anything. It bothered me back then when I perceived "falsehoods" about feats that were misinterpreted or things that could be matched as I felt the evidence was there. Now? The evidence is grossly on the side of DC and it's more freeing because I literally don't give a shit because there's nothing to say against it for me. It would feel wrong to argue against it for me.

Both the quality and quantity of the feats increased tremendously. Arguing against it would be like arguing Thor actually had really good years this past decade... did a lot of cool stuff, him fighting Hulk could be anyone's game.

I still have my headcanon of how fights could go and that won't ever change, but now I lack evidence without constraining the other side to play in my boundaries.

This is overestimating how much I ever cared about individual battles as opposed to context, but this is how my viewpoint changed on the "feats" side of thing in cross-battles. There's nothing to get worked up about anymore because I view the evidence as being unequivocally on DC's side. Why would I care about people that are right? I agree with some things just being unmatchable.

It went from being able to check off feats from a similar level to those higher end feats being an average minimum. Things just no longer make sense to have cross-company battles for me.

It also physically pains me to hear about Comicvine, CBR, or those wiki/youtube battles desperately trying to downplay DC and play up Marvel. The shoe would probably be on the other foot if I still read comics and didn't hate both modern companies. The "feats" are the least of that problem though...




Black Lives Matter

https://www.kindpng.com/picc/m/63-635048_thumb-up-thumbs-up-hd-png-transparent-png.png

Philosophía
Originally posted by One Big Mob
Here's how I view/viewed it.

A confirmation bias was formed that the top tiers were essentially equal or that universes were balanced. The feats could largely be put in place to not so much convince myself but be used as a counter against others. So everything fit in fairly well for a time. Outliers here and there but everything could at least be matched up to some degree. That's not to say that I had everyone exactly equal mind you as I always had Superman above Hulk in strength, but it was what you would call a "tiering" of some sorts. I viewed/view it to what I figure the intention of writers would write in a comic and used feats to disregard the outliers/high feats. Fitting my headcanon in there with feats to make up differences.

As time went on, DC started pulling away, and pulling away badly. It didn't change my headcanon of how I view fights in my own mind as I feel the intention is still the same, but you can't in good faith actually match those feats; made worse by Marvel never advancing and even devolving if anything. It bothered me back then when I perceived "falsehoods" about feats that were misinterpreted or things that could be matched as I felt the evidence was there. Now? The evidence is grossly on the side of DC and it's more freeing because I literally don't give a shit because there's nothing to say against it for me. It would feel wrong to argue against it for me.

Both the quality and quantity of the feats increased tremendously. Arguing against it would be like arguing Thor actually had really good years this past decade... did a lot of cool stuff, him fighting Hulk could be anyone's game.

I still have my headcanon of how fights could go and that won't ever change, but now I lack evidence without constraining the other side to play in my boundries.

This is overestimating how much I ever cared about individual battles as opposed to context, but this is how my viewpoint changed on the "feats" side of thing in cross-battles. There's nothing to get worked up about anymore because I view the evidence as being unequivocally on DC's side. Why would I care about people that are right? I agree with some things just being unmatchable.

It went from being able to check off feats from a similar level to those higher end feats being an average minimum. Things just no longer make sense to have cross-company battles for me.

It also physically pains me to hear about Comicvine, CBR, or those wiki/youtube battles desperately trying to downplay DC and play up Marvel. The shoe would probably be on the other foot if I still read comics and didn't hate both modern companies. The "feats" are the least of that problem though...




Black Lives Matter

https://www.kindpng.com/picc/m/63-635048_thumb-up-thumbs-up-hd-png-transparent-png.png

abhilegend
Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Krona blasting huh ?
Though I agree hal isnt that powerful on average Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
killing krona is what i was thinking of also.
Yeah, Guardians can kill other Guardians casually. It doesn't mean they are more powerful than each other.

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.