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This is h2h only with all of Diana's superhuman abilities gone, nothing left but her meele fighting skills and Amazon training, none of their weapons allowed, who wins?

Spite thread

Originally posted by Smurph
Spite thread In favor of whom?

Again......no superhuman strength speed or durability for D I Ana but peak human level only with her fighting skills only.

Originally posted by Smurph
Spite thread

Originally posted by lawest9
Again......no superhuman strength speed or durability for D I Ana but peak human level only with her fighting skills only.


Smurph probably thinks it's spite towards Diana and Siilt towards Steve I bet.


I mean Smurph is the respectable one while Stilt is a deluded Marvel fanboy, so those are my guesses.


Me, I say peak human Diana edges out Steve. More experience, and she beat Amazon warriors as a child who had far far more experience than she to earn the Wonder Woman title.

Originally posted by lawest9
In favor of whom? Maybe you should re-read the last time you made this thread

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=682150&pagenumber=1

So much for that theory.

Originally posted by Smurph
Maybe you should re-read the last time you made this thread

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=682150&pagenumber=1


Black Widow would totally lose.

Wonder Woman has a TREMENDOUS skill edge on Roger's here.

Originally posted by cdtm
Smurph probably thinks it's spite towards Diana and Siilt towards Steve I bet.


I mean Smurph is the respectable one while Stilt is a deluded Marvel fanboy, so those are my guesses.


Me, I say peak human Diana edges out Steve. More experience, and she beat Amazon warriors as a child who had far far more experience than she to earn the Wonder Woman title.

Stilt is delusional? Hmm, what do you think of Lia Thomas? What about the trans women in the MMA fighting regular women?

Steve oneshots.

Steve isn't powerless though. She would get stomped here.
Now make strength and speed and durability equal and it's a good fight.

Originally posted by Stoic
Stilt is delusional? Hmm, what do you think of Lia Thomas? What about the trans women in the MMA fighting regular women?

Steve oneshots.

Not real women.

But neither is Diana, she's made of clay.

Originally posted by h1a8
Steve isn't powerless though. She would get stomped here.
Now make strength and speed and durability equal and it's a good fight. What skill feat makes her a good fight for Steve?

Scans or issue number please.

^ Co-signed, I would like to know as well. Originally posted by cdtm
Wonder Woman has a TREMENDOUS skill edge on Roger's here. Critical analysis here then... if Wonder Woman were suddenly reduced to a frail 85 lbs frail, asthmathic mortal body... how would she perform against super soldiers in straight H2H combat??? Because I can post scans of how Steve Rogers would perform...

Originally posted by Smurph
What skill feat makes her a good fight for Steve?

Scans or issue number please.

Skill is mostly subjective. Expert's opinions hold more weight than non experts.
I'm an expert in fighting.
From what I've seen, WW's attack and defense seem as efficient and as effectives as Cap's.
From her ability to block, dodge, and parry to her ability to throw an effective kick, elbow, pressure strike, etc to countering all seems on par with Cap to me.

Like I said, subjective. So we have to agree to disagree.

Originally posted by Smurph
What skill feat makes her a good fight for Steve?

Scans or issue number please.


What, like how Frank Castle beats on Bullseye?

Total bullshit "feats", Bullseye is FAR more skilled yet gets nerfed to hell so Stillman can argue Castle is "skilled".

I'm sure you can post scan after scan of Cap winning, just like he won against Iron Fist or Shang Chi.. That's called PIS btw.

Originally posted by h1a8
Skill is mostly subjective. Expert's opinions hold more weight than non experts.
I'm an expert in fighting.
From what I've seen, WW's attack and defense seem as efficient and as effectives as Cap's.
From her ability to block, dodge, and parry to her ability to throw an effective kick, elbow, pressure strike, etc to countering all seems on par with Cap to me.

Like I said, subjective. So we have to agree to disagree.

To add to this
Using ABC logic is faulty since both have superpowers which enhances their strength, speed, durability, etc.
We have to compare their actual movements against others.

Originally posted by h1a8
To add to this
Using ABC logic is faulty since both have superpowers which enhances their strength, speed, durability, etc.
We have to compare their actual movements against others.


I agree with H1's argument against H1 here.

Didn't mean to come off as a jerk, this is just a huge pet peeve of mine, and makes scan comparisons virtually impossible.

I mean come on, we all know Matt Murdoch is >>>>>>> Frank Castle in skills. The fact is Bullseye is a peer of Matt, Frank should get blized to death by someone on his level. But NOOOOO, Frank has to win their fights because he's the F'n Punisher.


Castle, Logan, Steve, Batman, all of them are like Hulk Hogan at the top of WWF, they'll always beat B listers even if on paper they're not supposed to.


You asking for comparisons between Wonder Woman and Steve Rogers is like asking for comparisons between Stone Cold Steve Ausin and Kurt Angle, of COURSE Austin will have a much better record. (YES, Wonder Woman is a B lister. At best.)

Originally posted by h1a8
Skill is mostly subjective. Expert's opinions hold more weight than non experts.
I'm an expert in fighting.

Originally posted by cdtm
Didn't mean to come off as a jerk, this is just a huge pet peeve of mine, and makes scan comparisons virtually impossible.

I mean come on, we all know Matt Murdoch is >>>>>>> Frank Castle in skills. The fact is Bullseye is a peer of Matt, Frank should get blized to death by someone on his level. But NOOOOO, Frank has to win their fights because he's the F'n Punisher. You can deride Punisher's h2h skills. But if you review his fights with Daredevil, etc., he more than substantially acquits himself.

So just post Wonder Woman h2h fighting skills instead of whining about Punisher.

The problem is Captain America isn't very smart or very skilled, most would agree he has no chance here

Originally posted by ODG
You can deride Punisher's h2h skills. But if you review his fights with Daredevil, etc., he more than substantially acquits himself.

So just post Wonder Woman h2h fighting skills instead of whining about Punisher.

Do you watch wrestling? Have you ever seen Kurt Angle against The Rock or Steve Austin?


That's how a Punisher fight plays out. Bullseye or Matt unload everything they have, Castle tanks it, Castle catches them with one or two moves that beats them.

It's called "Jobbing".

So we have a 6'2 250lbs man vs 5'10 140lbs woman? How do you think this is going to end? LOL.

Originally posted by zopzop
So we have a 6'2 250lbs man vs 5'10 140lbs woman? How do you think this is going to end? LOL.

Well look at Black Widow. Most believe that she can beat A REAL LIFE 250LB trained human male fighter.

Originally posted by h1a8
Well look at Black Widow. Most believe that she can beat A REAL LIFE 250LB trained human male fighter. Black Widow is superhuman

We've been over this

Skills subjective here I'm an expert at everything

People also think that doing excessive acrobatics and spinny flippy kicks means you're skilled at fighting, when in real life most of those people would get mowed the f*** down in a street fight trying that stupid s***

Wonder Woman's grabbed Zoom II with the lasso, in spite of him being so fast Wally can't keep up, that takes skill.

And Steve bounces a disk around a dozen moving targets while dodging gunfire with such precision that he can catch it on the move from an entirely different location.

If you put some thought into it, it's pretty insane.

Originally posted by cdtm
Wonder Woman's grabbed Zoom II with the lasso, in spite of him being so fast Wally can't keep up, that takes skill.
Wonder Woman still has superspeed in there, no?

But the OP specifically states Diana doesn't have them
Originally posted by lawest9
This is h2h only with all of Diana's superhuman abilities gone, nothing left but her meele fighting skills and Amazon training, none of their weapons allowed, who wins?

She also doesn't have a lasso

If a rodeo cowboy steps into the ring with a professional heavyweight champ, you wouldn't place a bet based on whether he won the calf roping event.

Originally posted by cdtm
Do you watch wrestling? Have you ever seen Kurt Angle against The Rock or Steve Austin?

That's how a Punisher fight plays out. Bullseye or Matt unload everything they have, Castle tanks it, Castle catches them with one or two moves that beats them.

It's called "Jobbing". Well if it happens enough in the comics in long extended fights that don't leave anything to the imagination, it's not exactly jobbing anymore. It's their on-panel history. Originally posted by ShadowFyre
And Steve bounces a disk around a dozen moving targets while dodging gunfire with such precision that he can catch it on the move from an entirely different location.

If you put some thought into it, it's pretty insane. Diana is doing that with her tiara now. It's not exactly clear if it's magic or skill unless it's been explained before and I just don't recall.

Originally posted by Smurph
Black Widow is superhuman

We've been over this

No she isn't. She's human with absolutely no superpowers.
Doing rare things that no REAL HUMAN could maybe do doesn't make her superhuman when she is a human.
You can chalk those rare things up to PIS.

Her ability was due to training and exercise. She's not a mutant.

Therefore she can beat REAL 250LB. TRAINED MALE FIGHTERS due to her skill (nothing else)

Originally posted by h1a8
No she isn't. She's human with absolutely no superpowers.
Doing rare things that no REAL HUMAN could maybe do doesn't make her superhuman when she is a human.
You can chalk those rare things up to PIS.

Her ability was due to training and exercise. She's not a mutant.

Therefore she can beat REAL 250LB. TRAINED MALE FIGHTERS due to her skill (nothing else) Troll. She's been enhanced for decades. And regardless, feats are what counts.

You've been shown scans of her dodging sniper ammo after its fired.

You've been shown scans of her being awake through major abdominal surgery, fighting her way out of the hospital, and then immediately stalemating Elektra in h2h combat.

You've been shown scans of her straight up demolishing Taskmaster, blow for blow.

And since you don't even read comics, you don't have a basis for disbelieving those scans, you just choose to ignore them.

Originally posted by Smurph
Troll. She's been enhanced for decades. And regardless, feats are what counts.

You've been shown scans of her dodging sniper ammo after its fired.

You've been shown scans of her being awake through major abdominal surgery, fighting her way out of the hospital, and then immediately stalemating Elektra in h2h combat.

You've been shown scans of her straight up demolishing Taskmaster, blow for blow.

And since you don't even read comics, you don't have a basis for disbelieving those scans, you just choose to ignore them.

Prove that she has been physically enhanced.
If successful then it makes her RARE feats admissible.
And thus she's not a good example to why female humans can defeat 250lb trained male fighters.

Lastly a few feats in hundreds of appearances doesn't dismiss human PIS feats. 99% of the time she operates in human range.

But again, if she's enhanced physically then those feats can be explained away.

Originally posted by h1a8
Prove that she has been physically enhanced.
If successful then it makes her RARE feats admissible.
And thus she's not a good example to why female humans can defeat 250lb trained male fighters.

Lastly a few feats in hundreds of appearances doesn't dismiss human PIS feats. 99% of the time she operates in human range.

But again, if she's enhanced physically then those feats can be explained away. No, troll. Her feats are admissible because they're her feats. The rule isn't "PIS unless proven otherwise".

I've already given you scans and issue numbers. We don't need to introduce a further threshold of "show me the enhancements or else it's inadmissible." You want to provide your own proof to rebut those things, go for it.

Good post, only part that's demonstrably wrong is H1 trolling.

Most trolls take the mask off, he's way too consistent.

Originally posted by Smurph
No, troll. Her feats are admissible because they're her feats. The rule isn't "PIS unless proven otherwise".

I've already given you scans and issue numbers. We don't need to introduce a further threshold of "show me the enhancements or else it's inadmissible." You want to provide your own proof to rebut those things, go for it.

So PIS doesn't ever exist. It's not a rule. Good to know. Batman is faster than light and has strength well over 1000 tons and durability to resist thousands of tons. I can go on and on.

Also you claimed that she was physically enhanced (in the sense of increased speed, reactions, strength, etc). You have to prove such claims when requested. Otherwise you are trolling.

Originally posted by h1a8
So PIS doesn't ever exist. It's not a rule. Good to know.

Also you claimed that she is enhanced. You have to prove such claims when requested. Otherwise you are trolling. PIS is a rule, but feats aren't presumptively PIS. Burden is on you to establish that.

She was biochemically enhanced by the red room. Common knowledge, and there are scans. But the more persuasive and more relevant proof are her actual feats, which I have provided. She can react to the sound of a suppressed sniper round and move out of the way. Ergo, superhuman.

Burden is on you to prove otherwise.

Looks like she also just kicked Bloodscream and sent him flying. Cool.

Originally posted by Smurph
PIS is a rule, but feats aren't presumptively PIS. Burden is on you to establish that.

She was biochemically enhanced by the red room. Common knowledge, and there are scans. But the more persuasive and more relevant proof are her actual feats, which I have provided. She can react to the sound of a suppressed sniper round and move out of the way. Ergo, superhuman.

Burden is on you to prove otherwise.


Cassandra Cain does that and experts claim she isn't super human.


Who's up for testing that theory? 🤔

Originally posted by Smurph
PIS is a rule, but feats aren't presumptively PIS. Burden is on you to establish that.

She was biochemically enhanced by the red room. Common knowledge, and there are scans. But the more persuasive and more relevant proof are her actual feats, which I have provided. She can react to the sound of a suppressed sniper round and move out of the way. Ergo, superhuman.

Burden is on you to prove otherwise.

She was enhanced in such a way as to slow aging and increase healing, etc. Not to make her stronger, faster, etc. That's why I asked for proof (maybe something I missed)

If a human level character (no established superpowers by the comics or the company itself) has showings where less than 1% are well out of the range of human ability then those showings are PIS. Otherwise there is no such thing as PIS for humans. Black widow has hundreds and hundreds of appearances. But very few are gross outliers.

A consequence of no PIS is Batman will be almost as fast as light and capable of exerting and resisting over millions of tons of force.

Originally posted by cdtm
Cassandra Cain does that and experts claim she isn't super human.


Who's up for testing that theory? "experts"

Originally posted by Smurph
"experts"

In universe experts. You know the scene, they measured her with science.

Originally posted by h1a8


If a human level character (no established superpowers by the comics or the company itself) has showings where less than 1% are well out of the range of human ability then those showings are PIS. Otherwise there is no such thing as PIS for humans. Utter bullshit. Nothing in the forum rules limits Black Widow to a range of human ability.

"Plot induced stupidity" was the writing that made the fight between Black Widow and Magik seem close. Magik could have ended her in a panel.

Black Widow's feats, on the other hand, are simply her feats.

Anyways, reported for trolling.

Originally posted by cdtm
In universe experts. You know the scene, they measured her with science. Oh my bad. I thought you meant Originally posted by h1a8
Expert's opinions hold more weight than non experts.
I'm an expert in fighting.

Originally posted by Smurph
Utter bullshit. Nothing in the forum rules limits Black Widow to a range of human ability.

"Plot induced stupidity" was the writing that made the fight between Black Widow and Magik seem close. Magik could have ended her in a panel.

Black Widow's feats, on the other hand, are simply her feats.

Anyways, reported for trolling.

So you agree that Batman is at least 1/3 the speed of light, can exert forces far above 1000 tons.
After all his feats are his feats.

I gave a scenario where less than1% of the time a human character operates well outside of human range. So frequency AND having no established powers was my argument.

Otherwise we can use a human character's one-off feats to establish power level (for example, Batman.

If rare outlier feats FOR HUMAN CHARACTERS WITH NO ESTABLISHED SUPERPOWERS are allowed to establish power levels then I can certainly prove that Batman is at least 1/3 the speed of light and can exert and resist more than billions of tons of force.


You can't have it both ways.

Anyway Cap wins as he has superpowers and Diana doesn't.
If Cap was a normal human (same size and weight as his superpowered version and with same skill knowledge) with no enhanced abilities then this would be a good fight.

Originally posted by h1a8
So you agree that Batman is at least 1/3 the speed of light, can exert forces far above 1000 tons.
After all his feats are his feats.

I gave a scenario where less than1% of the time a human character operates well outside of human range. So frequency AND having no established powers was my argument.

Otherwise we can use a human character's one-off feats to establish power level (for example, Batman.

If rare outlier feats FOR HUMAN CHARACTERS WITH NO ESTABLISHED SUPERPOWERS are allowed to establish power levels then I can certainly prove that Batman is at least 1/3 the speed of light and can exert and resist more than billions of tons of force.


You can't have it both ways. "But the Black Widow is different. She's the end project of Department X, the Red Room. A half-century long project to build a superhuman assassin capable of killing Captain America. They built her strong. They built her fast."

While she's outrunning and tackling Taskmaster.

Originally posted by Smurph
"But the Black Widow is different. She's the end project of Department X, the Red Room. A half-century long project to build a superhuman assassin capable of killing Captain America. They built her strong. They built her fast."

While she's outrunning and tackling Taskmaster.

Thank you. That's all I asked.
I only knew for her to age slowly and have an accelerated healing factor.

She's no Val Armorr.

Of course neither is Cap.

Originally posted by Smurph
The feats don't need to show her at human levels. They just need to establish skill.

Hercules has skill feats despite being very superhuman. Not enough to say that he could beat Cap or Batman in an even fight, but definitely enough to keep up with some street levelers.

He kept up with Carman Elektra, who could walk all over Batman or Cap (If not for the typical jobbing)

Originally posted by cdtm
He kept up with Carman Elektra, who could walk all over Batman or Cap (If not for the typical jobbing)

No he can't in a forum situation. Elektra should stomp powerless Hercules.
Characters not fighting to the best of their ability in a comic holds little water.
Remember speed and reactions plays a bigger factor than skill.
Even the lowest professionally trained fighter has the know how to block, dodge or parry any h2h attack. Strikes are landed due to lack of reactions or countering (catching an opponent off guard).

Diana is a great fighter, but if you took her strength away, many of the skill feats that she can produce would be greatly diminished. Acrobatics for example would likely be used far less, as would several other abilities that she has.

Originally posted by Stoic
Diana is a great fighter, but if you took her strength away, many of the skill feats that she can produce would be greatly diminished. Acrobatics for example would likely be used far less, as would several other abilities that she has. Well she is naturally an Amazon. So without her gifts then she would still possess superhuman stats.
Its not like she's a human in DNA or anything.

But it's up to the OP

Originally posted by Stoic
Diana is a great fighter, but if you took her strength away, many of the skill feats that she can produce would be greatly diminished. Acrobatics for example would likely be used far less, as would several other abilities that she has. I see many arguments that abjectly reject both Diana's superspeed and bulletproof durability.

In which case, her ability to deflect and avoid wounds from bullets 99.9% of the time can really only be explained by skill, no?

It would strangely appear so.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

https://i.postimg.cc/1VR1KdxC/14-5.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/G8CC42X1/15-1.jpg

Originally posted by Smurph
Spite thread

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
It would strangely appear so.

Either she aim blocked the shots, got lucky while randomly blocking (considering her eyes were closed in some instances), or possessed superhuman perception and reaction speed.

If it's the latter, it contradicts the claim that she is powerless in this scenario, operating with only human-level abilities.

According to the OP, Wonder Woman has **no** superhuman abilities here; her synapse speed and movements are limited to human-level speeds. This means she can only perform as an ordinary human.

The fastest a human can typically react is in 0.1 seconds, but within that time, a bullet would have already traveled over 30 meters.

This is spite thread. Cap has superhuman strength, speed, durability, and comparable skill.

A better fight would be WW (with Cap's physically attributes) vs Cap in h2h.

Originally posted by h1a8
Skill is mostly subjective. Expert's opinions hold more weight than non experts.
I'm an expert in fighting.
From what I've seen, WW's attack and defense seem as efficient and as effectives as Cap's.
From her ability to block, dodge, and parry to her ability to throw an effective kick, elbow, pressure strike, etc to countering all seems on par with Cap to me. https://64.media.tumblr.com/f674629372435b896854ece91a8d5d9a/tumblr_o9990vyMgG1tgrtyvo4_400.gifv

Originally posted by ODG
https://64.media.tumblr.com/f674629372435b896854ece91a8d5d9a/tumblr_o9990vyMgG1tgrtyvo4_400.gifv
Lol
H2h skill is comparable (if you disregard superhuman physical attributes).
Cap stomps her because he has a significant physical advantage.

Originally posted by h1a8
Lol
H2h skill is comparable (if you disregard superhuman physical attributes).
Cap stomps her because he has a significant physical advantage. Ok, you've forgotten what you, Smurph and I were initially discussing. So I'll arbitrarily take the blame here.

But we were arguing about strength, speed and durability being equal and you arguing it's a good fight. So... why?

Originally posted by ODG
Ok, you've forgotten what you, Smurph and I were initially discussing. So I'll arbitrarily take the blame here.

But we were arguing about strength, speed and durability being equal and you arguing it's a good fight. So... why?

I believe they possess comparable skill for the following reasons:
1. My subjective assessment of their offensive and defensive showings.
2. Their fictional battle experience.
3. Some writer's intent.

That being said, I believe Cap would have a slight edge over Wonder Woman in skill, but it would still be a closely contested fight.

Let me ask you: How do you measure fictional h2h combat skill, excluding superhuman abilities?

Originally posted by h1a8
I believe they possess comparable skill for the following reasons:
1. My subjective assessment of their offensive and defensive showings.
2. Their fictional battle experience.
3. Some writer's intent.

That being said, I believe Cap would have a slight edge over Wonder Woman in skill, but it would still be a closely contested fight.

Let me ask you: How do you measure fictional h2h combat skill, excluding superhuman abilities? I ain't even drunk 3 beers yet and you've completely flummoxed me with this response. Lemme try and re-establish a starting point to salvage some semblance of a constructive discussion.

Take stat-equalized Cap, Black Widow and Diana. They fight each other 1v1. So Cap v. Natasha. Cap v. Diana. Natasha v. Cap. Natasha v. Diana. Diana v. Cap.
Diana v. Natasha.

Taken altogether, who does the best as a whole and who does the worst as a whole?