Best evidence that Neo's phone call happens at the end of Revolutions.......

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Evil Dead
Sure people have posted stuff about the dates between Cypher and Trinity's conversation at the beginning of the Matrix and Neo's phone call at the end being 19 months apart.............this is circumstantial since we don't know exactly how long of a time frame the first movie lasted.....or the exact ammount of time between The Matrix and Reloaded.

People have also posted about the computer in "Enter the Matrix" being made in '99............which would put the Niobe/Ghost missions (that run in exactly the same time frame as Reloaded) in '99 since we assume that all the equiptment the Zion rebels use in the Matrix is the latest and up to date............why would they load inferior tools in their construct to take with them when they have access to the latest technology?

All that is circumstantial.........but may put you in the mindset that all 3 movies happen before the end of the first movie when Neo makes his phone call to the machines..........

How about this:

Neo's Phonecall at the end of the Matrix:

"I know you're out there.......I can feel you now"

Very last scene in Reloaded, Neo stops the sentinals:

"Something is different......I can feel them"

By Neo saying that something is different, he can feel them now.......doesn't this imply that he could not feel them before? If he only gained the ability to feel them when he touched the source, doesn't this mean he touched the source before he makes that phone call at the end of the first movie when he utters the line, "I can feel you now"? We all know that he didn't touch the source untill doesn't this mean Reloaded takes place before he makes the phone call at the end of the Matrix?

Nay-sayers have said, "but the cars in Reloaded are newer models"........I'm no cadillac expert so I can't guess the years of the models pictured in the movie.................however, those cars don't exist in the real world, only in the Matrix. Just because those cars weren't produced in our real world untill 2001 or 2002 doesn't mean that the Cadillac comany in the Matrix didn't produce those cars in ' is only a V.R. simulation after all. This idea goes back to the tasty wheat conversation in the first do we know if anything portrayed in the Matrix is the same as it was in the real world?

Also, in some scenes from the Revolutions trailers........Neo isn't wearing his robe from Reloaded, he is wearing the same clothes he wore at the end of the first movie...........which means he could wear those clothes throughout Revolutions then make the phone call.

I'm not committed to this theory...........but it does make sense........I'm taking it as a strong possibility...........the quotes from the end of both movies is what is kind of pushing me towards believing it.........


What about his sunglasses, now im not saying that your wrong but, hes wearing the sunglasses he wore all the way through M1, then they all changed to some new snazzy ones in M2. So why would he revert back to his original ones?

princess leia
i dont think it happened at the end or revolutions...i mean whats the point. when they made it they didnt mean it to be. they didnt have any plans to make sequels when they first made m1. they may have wanted to. but they had no actualy plans.

i agree with you because when he makes the call he also says

"im going to hang up this phone and im going to show these people what you dont want them to see , im going to show them a world without you . a world without rules or bounderys a world where anything is possible where we go from there is a choice of routine."

but in reloaded he is on the Nebuchadnezzar and he jacks out and in of a matrix with rules but he said he was going to have a world with no rules. anyone who has theories about it will know what im talking about

I think Evil Dead's theory is pretty close to what could happen, because after Neo bursts upward, and all those people walking around would've seen him and that would have messed up the whole this is the real world. In reloaded he takes off when there is no one around, and flies to the oracle at night. It really is beginning to make sense, I don't know, the W. Bros probably had some idea that they were going to make a sequel or two... Most everything they do, is for a reason

yeah baby!!

maybe they just meant the phone call to be at the end of m1, but now that they are makin sequels they decided to put it in revolutions.

Listen, everyone here seems to have the misconception that the Wachowski's were never going to do Sequels. The Matrix story was always planned for at least 2 films. I read an interview with the WB's and they stated this specifically - I knew this before I saw the first film (about 2 days after it was released worldwide).

The reason it needed splitting is because what was initially going to be the sequel is now Reloaded AND Revolutions was too big as one film.

If none of you believe me, you can find proof on the Animatrix documentaries and Making of, which can be found on the DVD.

Maybe he just means that he took control of the Matrix and he's going to show the humans that in there they can do anything. Its better then unnplugging everybody because thats not possible.

just a theory.

Evil Dead
Sifer is correct..........the Matrix was written (outlined, not scripted) to be atleast 2 just so happens they needed to make 3 because they couldn't fit their large script for the second movie into one film.........

this actually only helps lend credibility to the theory that the phone call is at the end of Revolutions........the Wachowski Bros. didn't know if the second (and third now) movie was ever going to be made.........they didn't know if the first movie was going to bomb or not. Ofcourse if it bombed there wouldn't be a they went ahead and showed the end of the story at the end of the first movie incase they didn't get the chance to make a sequel.

And to the guy who's talking about sunglasses...........who cares, they are sun tell you the truth I havn't analyzed the Revolutions trailers to try and acertain which model of sunglasses Neo is wearing in the third movie.

i can back up sifer that they had always planned to make another installment . . . i've read the interviews too.

I've posted this before in a different thread, but the code that is being shown is not the matrix when it says"system failure"it is a trace program running and he stops it. people think that the matrix is failing when it says that but its not.

and when he says"i know your out there...i can feel you now"
He could feel them IN the matrix when he started to believe he is the one.he is making the phone call INSIDE the matrix and he could feel them there. the only reason he said "somthings different...i can feel them now" is because he couldnt feel them in the real world untill then.

actually, i can't see anywhere in this thread where someone confused the trace program for the matrix code. so, i think the theory still holds strong.

Who cares if it is just the phone line that has a system failure. That doesn't disprove this theory! It means nothing, why would you even bring that up? Try to get your reading up to a 3rd grade level if you are going to waste my time reading your useless crap.

This theory is my favorite one right now. I believe it is the end of Revolutions. That would be cool.


"crappybob and friends"

woah, hey, how can we argue with that? if you had just put that up to begin with, stovenutts, we totally would've agreed with your point of view.

*rolls eyes*

Then just don't read it. Best mature answer. Ignore them. I wish I could ignore you. (I like that bad mouth generator)

I just posted this in another thread but the Trace Program code at the end only helps back up the theory. Why?

Because it say's System Failure. Now remember what the Architect said:

"A Cataclysmic System Crash"

Now that means everything won't just shut down at once; bit by bit the Matrix System is going to deteriorate. The Trace Program failing just helps back it up because it doesn't say "Trace Program Failure" or "Program Failure" - It says "SYSTEM Failure".

Evil Dead
#1. Stovenutts..............Neo can not "feel" the machines while he is inside the Matrix........have you been watching secret movies that havn't been released to the public or what? There is not one thing in either movie that would suggest what you have postulated and presented as fact............Neo doesn't know where agents are untill he sees them......Neo doesn't know about the architect untill he meets him.......hell, Neo doesn't even know where the oracle is untill Seraph shows him.............exactly what about the machines/matrix is Neo feeling?

#2. Sifer has schooled the rest of need for me to post further.............well done.

Evil> When Neo is at the meeting he knows the agents are there. He can see the difference in the code. The reason he only sees the Oracle when Seraph shows him is because she is in another part of the Matrix. Remember they go tru does corredors with doors.

Evil Dead
yes Kes........he can see the difference in the code.....he cannot "feel the machines".....he doesn't know their plans......he only knows they are there, why? because he can see them (the code), not feel them.

id love 2 be able 2 c everything in code...but id probably start bumping into things & falling over...o i do that anyway embarrasment

Actually I think it would be a great ending. Remember Neo says "I do not know how this is going to end, but I do no how it is going to begin..."
This would lead us in to the online game that is being rumored.

Yeh it would be a cool ending.

Evil Dead
Most convincing evidence.......RIGHT HERE:

I just got done watching my Reloaded the end Neo tells Morpheus that they have 24 hours before Zion is destroyed.....just after Neo breaks the news to Morpheus that the prophecy is false.

Okay.......We are now to assume that the entire Revolutions movie happens in 24 hours..........we're all together on this one right?....I mean Neo just said they only had 24 hours to save Zion.....

okay.......I popped in my Enter the Matrix game........just to read the notez. real quick............under Notez. you will get a remote message from "a friend"........the date you recieve this message is 9-18-99......

We know that Enter the Matrix and Reloaded both happen during the same time frame........If the date in Enter the Matrix is 9-18-99, the date in Reloaded is 9-18-99.............

I then popped my Matrix dvd back in.........guess what the date is when Neo makes the phone call? guessed it, 9-18-99 ..........

Let's see here....

- Revolutions happens within 24 hours of Reloaded (meaning the same day)

- The ending date Reloaded takes place on is 9-18-99.......because the date is given to us in the Enter the Matrix game when you recieve the remote message.

- The phone call at the end of the Matrix is made on 9-18-99........

The phone call is made less than 24 hours after the end of Reloaded.........Revolutions takes place within 24 hours of Reloaded.......hmmmmmmm

I checked this myself a few days ago and was gonna post it when I remembered...LOL...You beat me to it smile

The Omega

Yes, but does it does prove that it is definately in the same time period. So they will have to show it in some way otherwise it would be a mistake - *gasp* - which is doubtful smile

W. Lee Chojin
Hi guys .... the teory make's sense, but in revolutions teaser, Neo says:
"- It ends tonight ..." during the rain fight with Smith ....

At the end of M1 he says: "-I do not know how this is going to end ..."

Just a thought ....

Yes but the phone call could take place during Revolutions - not necessarily at the end, which is when I am guessing that Fight is gonna be (or right near it). Because as I have said a few times, I feel that fight is gonna sum everything up smile

Yeh but I don't think that stoping Smith has anything to do with ending the Matrix. I also don't believe the Matrix will be destroed stick out tongue
Sifer has a point it could be during, thou things look pretty bad during reloaded I don't think Neo has the time to stop for a phone call unless it's to use has bait for Smith. To make him came after Neosmile Just a thought.

As much as i want to believe this theory, i also heard that it can't happen as in the archatect's (sp) room where it shows neo's past it shows the phone call.

really? didn't catch that in the background. but, it also showed trinity getting shot after fighting an agent, which was in the future (the extremely near future, yes, but the future).

True that smile

sure it was that specific phonecall? cause the rebels use phonebooths a lot smile

i hope that is how it does end...i dont want neo 2 die!!!!

Evil Dead

this is so bloody confusing confused

Evil Dead
What's confusing?

How many times have you watched the film Korri......just out of curiousity?

All through Reloaded we are told that choice is an illusion........people only believe they have choice, when in fact they don't. This was represented by the Merovingian when he sent the blonde woman in the restaraunt a piece of cake........he was controlling her.....she had no choice to make, he wrote a program that controlled her....taking away all choice.

The Oracle tells Neo "you have already made the are here now to understand why you made the choice".........then Neo asks why he can't see past Trinity being shot when she falls, why he doesn't see Trinity die. The Oracle tells him, "we can never see past the choices we don't understand"..............

Basically what it all means is.........Fate. Our destiny is pre-ordained.........if something is going to happen, it's going to happen....there is nothing we can do to change it.

On the architect's screens in the source are different choices Neo could make. Each time, the architect predicts the correct choice Neo could have made. Why? because the choice had already been made.......the architect understands why Neo made the choices he did so he can see past them. The Architect knew Neo wouldn't enter the mainframe........the architect knew Neo would choose to save Trinity.

This is where the illusion of choice came into play. Even though the architect already knew what was going to happen........he told Neo, "she is going to die and there is nothing you can do to stop it".......then presented Neo with the 2 doors. This was the illusion of choice........the architect already knew what door Neo was going to take.......but presented him with 2 options to give Neo the illusion that he had a choice to make ...........when in fact he had already made the choice because it was pre-ordained (fate)..........

There's a time gap from the biginnig to the end of M1, we just dont know how much time passes in the movie. We do know that around 6month from the 1st to the 2nd. So during the kiss scene and the call sometime could have passed. Time in which the kid releases himself, make sence?blink

no i understand wot ur saying i just think that its a little hard 2 process all this information (i have a minute brain)

i watch M1 as much as possible n i have seen reloaded on 3 occasions

Evil Dead
You are correct on your synopsis of the time frame.......

19 months pass in the first Matrix movie...........undoubtedly some time has passed between the "kiss scene" and the phone call scene at the end........Neo has learned he has a cool new power during that time gap (flying).

That's where the speculation that Reloaded and Revolutions take place between those two scenes in the first movie comes from.........there is a time gap.........yet the ending date of Reloaded is the same day as when Neo makes the phone call at the end of the first movie.

That coupled with the fact that Neo says at the beginning of that phone call, "I know you're out there........I can feel you now"......and at the end of Reloaded Neo says, "somethings different, I can feel them".......meaning that Reloaded takes place before that phone call.

One thing though.........we actually have no idea how much time passes. In Reloaded Morpheus says, "we have freed more minds in the past 6 months than we have in the past 6 years"..........Neo could have been one of those minds freed in the last 6 months that Morpheus was talking about.

raver <There is some fiction in your truth,
and some truth in your fiction.> raver

<evil dead>

Well in an interview Keanu says that 6months have passed smile

Evil Dead
okay Mr. Smarty pants wink

In the movies we are given no point of reference to determine how much time has passed.......that better?

I'll take Keanu's word for it........he probably knows what he's talking about.

big grin yeh. Well you have Morpheous saying: "In the past 6months.." stick out tongue

Evil Dead

Morpheus never said it had been 6 months since the last movie......he just said they had freed alot of minds in the past 6 months.......Neo could have been one of those minds........that is if Keanu hadn't said in an interview that it had been 6 months since the last movie.


Well thats what I mean. All we get is Morpheous saying 6months. We just have to assume that it was after Neo big grin

Evil Dead



Evil Dead
hmmmmmmmmm....... rock

now is that arm protruding from the head.........or is the head protruding from the arm? very unsettling.....

big grin

This is the Best theory so far.

I still think there is free will though.

Only the Oracle and The architect can se the Future so they can see"destiny" but everyone is just acting out free will, they are not following destiny, it's impossible.

Besides if Neo fell into thinking there is no free will, he'd be the merovingian.

Infact, that's why some think the merovingian is a former "The One"
because in order for persaphone to say the merovingian used to be like Neo, would mean he believed in free will at one time. Just like Neo eh?

And by the end of Revolutions, Neo is falling into that kind of thinking. it's the kind of thinking that comes without hope.

The merovingian is now hopeless.

Also I dont think the movie should end on the Phonecall for one main reason, fans ALLREADY LOVED that ending, and waited years to find out just hwat happens after it. And to this day there is nothing.

Well it would be better that after the climax of the film, or VERY near the end, Neo makes the phone call, and the continues to sum up the solution to the problem from there.

Like lets say the film is 2hrs and 45 minutes long. I'd say the Phone call should happen at about 2 hrs and 20 minutes into the film.

Giving a good 20minutes to wrap up from there with at leasting showing the beggining of the end IN PROGRESS. Satisfying fans.

I think in Revolutions Neo will Fight Smith early on, then Absorb him or something, then make it back in just enough time to save Zion.

*Just cuz Neo says Zion will be done in 24 hrs, does'nt mean it will...he's been wrong before.*

Then there's still pleanty of time in the film, the whole Bane-Smith thing Move the Story along.

INFACT: Picture this. in part 1 Smith captured and tortured a struggling Morpheus,...WELL Surely the Tides can turn and Morpheus may have the opportunity to return the Favor. They can all sorts of Info out of the Smith Bane Hybrid.

Well Neo sees the future blink

I've been thinking about that. About what Persephone says and I think (IMO) what she ment was that he wanted to be free at one point. Because he's a Rogue program and (as far as I can tell) Rogue programs are programs that should have been eliminated (destroied) but chose not to. (just like Smith says before the Burly Brawl (sp))

Too true. Joel Silver said that is was split and still filmed at the same time so it could be financially better, or something along those lines (go see the S:2 article or somethin').


Well at one point he was like everyone else, and followed free will.

He's reaching the level of the oracle, but not quite. I think we'll see by the time this is done, he'll be talking and acting like the oracle.

Of course there is free will in the Matrix films- that is the point. Only the Merovingian is coming at it from a pre-ordained angle. If there was no free will there would be NO choices- whether you had already made them or not.

The only things being predicted are those things whose outcomes have ALREADY been decided by choices made. But there is free will and choice being exercised in the Matrix all the time.

The Oracle in EtM says that there are so many unknown factors that she cannot see what is to come- and what can these unknown things be, except what people chose to do? She even talks about how people will have to choose to help make the Path of the One.

Choice is endemic to the Matrix films as presented- do not let the Merovingian's 'bullshit' fool you.

I personally doubt this idea that the phone call in the original is after the two sequels. And I think that phone call being on the Architect's screen does indeed rule it out from being so, as the Architect was only predciting choice-created certainites (like the coming Trinity fight), and what was going to happen with the One was, again, NOT certain, as the Oracle in EtM makes clear.

Not impossible, but unlikely.

lol Always smiling, eating candy...baking cockies stick out tongue and saying BINGO! laughing out loud jk

At the end of Revolutions Neo fights off various Smiths.He tells him there is no way he can save Zion since he has alredy begun a trace program in order for the machines to enter Zion.Basiclly Neo afterwards begins to have Deja Vu and starts to see himself failing to save Zion.I will leave that to u all...... "I can feel you I know you are out there;you are afraid,afraid of change"(Neo)

blink Ok...

matrixrabbit, that's completely absurd no

i know we've discussed this before, but someone refresh me --

what about the line in neo's m1 phone call when he says (roughly), "where we go from here is a choice i leave to you"?

if you support this whole phone call theory, you could argue that neo, at that point, is finally starting to catch on to everything the oracle and architect were talking about in m2 (admit it, he looked confused during those speeches), summing up this trilogy's apparent motif of choices.

then again, if the phone call is only at the end of m1 and the theory is bunk, you could just chalk it up to foreshadowing.

any takers on this detail, or is it too irrelevant?

that would make sense, but that would be really weird

i dont see why it matters. if it is at the end of revolutions we are gonna say "hm, wow that was in M1." thats it.

I weep for your lack of understanding stovenuts.

of coarse he does!! big grin

I just found something out. When on hacking the time is 13:03 the call happens at 14:32. But when does hacking take place, is it the start of the game, mid game, end of game, end of film when. Without knowing this we can't determine when the phone call happens.

people are taking this too far

The Omega

not exactly, stovenutts. i just read an interview with the w.bros that sifer (i think) linked to. someone asked how many little hidden things the w.bros had in the movie. they answered, "more than you'll ever know."

Hrmmm I thought that the hacking in the game takes place after the game? Just what I thought anyway smile

All right. I'm new in this thread, but please, don't tak me lightly. I have read through all of your replies and had some very interesting answers. I think that it would be "cool" and "clevor", if i do say so myself, if the end of Revolutions is in actuality the end of the first Matrix. But, unfortunitly, I believe that it is not. It's a good theroy. And I like how you guys are staying on top of it.. well maybe not Stovenutts.. but thats besides the point.. If it was truly the end... wait a second.. you know what.. It really could be the end of Revolutions. Tell me Sifer.. how did you come up with this theroy?

Wait. Don't you that the Wachowski bros have something a little better up there sleeve? And what about in The Matrix Revolutions trailor where Neo says.. "It ends tonight."

Evil Dead
The end of Revolutions will not be the end of the story..................the story of the Matrix will continue to be told in comics, books, video games, anime cartoons, etc...........Revolutions will simply be the end to Neo/Trinity/Morpheus story............the Matrix will still exist and there will be countless more stories to take place inside of it......

My only problem with Reloaded starting September 18th... is that the kid is taken back to Zion at some point after The Matrix (when he is 'saved') and before Reloaded ('cause he's waiting for Neo)... so unless Michael (the kid) recovered super-duper-quickly... and how did they find his body in the battery-plants? Had he taken the red pill?


He didn't take the pill. But I don't know how they found him. They could have returned home after they found him.

The Omega
Ikobe> Because there is probably a six months (or so) lapse between the scene where Neo is resurrected by Trinity in M1, and the final scene of M1. Otherwise The Matrix spans a time-period of 17 months, which Neos hair-growth at the scene where he dies and wakes shows has not elapsed.

hodgie: it's clear that the matrix does not, in fact, "end tonight," as neo says. he's probably referring to something else. the battle between him and smith, maybe. the whole "zion in peril" thing. but we know that whatever happens, the matrix will live on. there's that matrix online game that's coming out. the teaser commercial for it even says that it takes place after revolutions.

maybe neo figured it would end

2.7, here we come, then, after all, hm? Oh... I so wish you could play as an Agent... *absorbs into a random person* Buahaha! *is shot* Buaha- hey, quit stealin' my moment! *fills random rebel with lead* Buahahaha!

In M1, we do have a sense of time for which Neo makes his phone call, and it cannot have happened after the time frame of Reloaded.

For starters, his comment about "I can feel you now" does not imply that he can feel the machines. Remember, he is in the matrix when he says this. He is only implicating that he can feel and see the programming of the matrix.

Secondly, the last few moments of the movie it says "Trace Program running" and then is followed by "System Failure" If you recall, there was a trace program running in the very beginning of M1 when Trinity phoned Cypher. The trace was on Cypher because they wanted to capture the crew of the Nebberchanezzar. The system failure only implied that Neo was manipulating the code to his will, causing a recoverable system failure.

Thridly, the time frame between the first two movies was actually stated in Reloaded, and I quote "Consider that in the past six months we have freed more minds than in the last six years." This only furthers us to believe that Neo has been with them for aproximately six months to help free these minds. Also given that Neo himself still seems unsure of himself through the beginning of the movie only leads to further this.

Finally, Neo makes the comments about "I will show them what you don't want them to see" at the end of M1, with the operative word being "will." So he has not freed anyone's mind yet, but has implied that he is going to bring the system down. To bring the system down without freeing them first is strongly implied that they would be killed. This is done by Switch & Apoc's deaths from being unplugged while still inside, as well as comments by both Morpheous and Agent Smith:

Morpheous: "The body cannot live without the mind"

Agent Smith: (to morpheous) "The program was rejected, and entire crops were lost."

Then there is the Revolutions trailers that imply the program Smith is breeding like a cancer, if we look forward to the future, and that Neo is somehow caught between both worlds.

So the only logical place for that call is right where it is, between the first and second movies. Either way, I am in high anticipation for the final movie!!

now i've read the 1st post, so i'm just gonna say this

if that scene happens in revolutions, we have to assume it happens at the end, right? so that must either be the very end of the film, which would SUCK, or it could be before the last 15 minutes were neo gives a warning to everyone, which is pointless stick out tongue

the ideas for the second and third films wer only concieved after WB allowed the wachos to go ahead and write two more movies. M1 was a stand alone movie not designed to have sequels, there were added by request of the wachos and allowed to be made by WB after the sucess of Bound and The Matrix!

Ok. This is an un-endable debate. But, I would like to put across my Opinion. Why all the endless theories, conspiracies, what-ifs and why's?
I have my view on one certain Morpheus. That is not answering your question, that is merely being 'sociable' if you get my call.
My OPINION (not knowledge of the words that I say) is how can it be the end of the Revolutions film? I think that it is just the start of the end and beginning of both the first and second films. Its progressive. Then again, I might be wrong. But its good to have an opinion. Like Morpheus, I stand to believe

I just want to point out something that everyone has seemed to glance over in ever thread on this forum. Then again im probably just not seeing someone elses realization on this topic. Everyone continues to say that Revolutions will take place in a 24 hr time period because the prophecy was not true. Becuase by visiting the source Neo didnt end the war, and that the machines would reach Zion and destroy it if Neo didnt do anything about it. Well the film will probably take place in a 24 hr period where Neo saves Zion, but realize the prophecy isnt proven to be false by any means. NEO NEVER VISITED THE SOURCE!. Even he seems to miss this in reloaded. He tells Morpheus near the end that the prophecy is wrong, that the war should be over if he visited the source. But keep in mind the architect gave him a "choice" between two doors. The door on his right led to the source, the other to Trinity. Neo wasnt in the source when he had his conversation with the architect. Think about it, the prophecy may still come true.

we actually know its a 24 hour time period because joel silver and such has said so in interveiws.. revo starts right where reloaded ends its all a dayish maybe lkike 30 hours not 24 but you get my drift

hey... i havent read all these threads but...

whats the time gap between M1 and reloaded???

i forgot, i think fishburne or joel silver said it...

6 months ish i believe.. but the phone call takes place the same day

ohh... i was just thinking because of the gap between jesus' resurrection and his ascension ..40 days i think

its atleast 6 months cause morph is talken and hes like just think in the past 6 months we have freed more minds then in the last 6 years or something.. im thinking that means now that they have neo and the agents cant really bother him..

The Unknown
What was even the point of the Matrix tracing Neo's phone call?

The Omega

this is crap. neos phone call cant happen at end of revolutions. whos he talking to then?

The Unknown
The Architect?

The agents of the system that still exist? The matrix can't be destroyed.

The Unknown
The Matrix can be destroyed, but it would just kill everyone inside of it.

Being why it can't be destroyedstick out tongue

The Omega:

Thanks- You seem to be the only one who's paid attention to my post anyway. big grin And, following the story line there's no other logical place for the phone call to be.


Neo did visit the source, the architect was the source! That's what a system architect *is*! If you remember, the architect told Neo where the other door would lead him - to Back to the matrix - where he would have to select 27 humans to be released from the matrix, 14 female 13 male, to rebuild zion and keep the system in place. Also, there were six versions before him, which is more than likely probable if the machines had to redesign the matrix several times, along with the fact that NOBODY knows what the actual year is.

Mist & The Unknown

The phone call wouldn't be to the architect. He only designed the Matrix, and is nothing but a program himself. His phone call would be to the machines themselves. As all computer systems do, there would be a recorded log of sorts for the "mainframe" processor and the central intelligence for all AI - and, being a hacker, Neo would know that the log of his phone call would be flagged by the machines. Thus, also, the reason to trace that phone call for a place of origin.

The matrix cannot be destroyed without killing everyone connected to the system. Doing so would result in the instantaneous disconnection from the matrix - without getting out - which would kill the mind. Just as what happened to Switch and Apoc in M1.

this also doesnt make sense, for wut Neo said in M1 was actually in the matrix, and not in the real world

This should clear up why the original matrix was released as a stand-alone movie, ending with the much debated "phone call" at the end of the first of the trilogy. Much of the information is taken from actor and director interviews, as well as the behind the scenes look at the first movie called "The Matrix: Revisited"

Plasma, you posted:

"the ideas for the second and third films were only conceived after WB "allowed the wachos to go ahead and write two more movies."

But this is actually false. The Wachowski Brothers had actually already written all three movies. They approached the WB studios to do the movies in 1996, and the friend of theirs they spoke with was all up for it - except they wanted to direct it themselves. He told them that they would not receive a budget for it at all, nor would they be given a 3 movie contract for the trilogy since they had little to no prior directing experience.

The solution was this:

In 1996 they wrote and directed (after the writing of the three matrix movies) a movie called "Bound". It was a low budget flick that did pretty good for it's class.

After working with WB they came to these terms on the Matrix movies - they would film the first one, to see how it would do in the box office, if it did well then they would have a contract for the next two. In which case they would get brand new studio facilities (built between 1999 and 2001 in Australia) and they would start screening for actors to fill the vast amount of remaining parts.

The CGI department went to work almost immediately after the success of M1, and filming would have started sooner, but the building of the new facilities, and Singer/Actress Allahya's death just before filming of Niobe's part postponed the movie some, since they had to find a replacement for Niobe.


What exactly doesn't make sense? Yes, he placed the call within the matrix, from the safety of the matrix to avoid being killed by a sentinel. The sentinels presumably have a data stream input from the matrix, thus they know, through chain of command, or through direct input, what happens inside the matrix. A massive computer system would have to store a log file of every action that happens inside the matrix - this is how Smith would have gotten the file on Neo in M1 when they took him to the FBI interrogation room. They even had photos of him "helping land lady take out her garbage". Now do you suppose the agents were there photographing this? I fear not. That would involve to much in the means of system resources for the Smith program. It was just logged for reference in-case they needed to pull the file on someone who became a threat to the matrix.

So when Neo places his phone call, inside the matrix, it would be logged and recorded. They would realize this was from someone who is not a part of the matrix and flag the message for immediate review. The world governments also do this, it's a surveillance program, similar to the FBI's Carnivore project, called Echelon (if I spelled it right). If you say the word bomb on the phone, or even in this forum post, the message is recorded, flagged, and marked for follow up in the vast facilities across the globe that are run by members of the United Nations. This would be the premise for such a system in the matrix.

isnt project Echelon something from metal gear solid 2???

princess leia > The W. Bros had the whole story planed out for the trilogy during the filming of the 1st movie. Or so they have said in many interviews.

"Neo did visit the source, the architect was the source! That's what a system architect *is*! If you remember, the architect told Neo where the other door would lead him - to Back to the matrix - where he would have to select 27 humans to be released from the matrix, 14 female 13 male, to rebuild zion and keep the system in place."

Metamorphosis- INCORRECT. Sorry, but it you are going to correct others you must try and be accurate yourself.

The Architect says no such thing. He says the "The door to your right leads TO THE SOURCE, and the salvation of Zion."

Note- TO the Source. He is not IN it. The Source is specifically the Machine's mainframe, not the location of any one programme, even one who made the Matrix. It is not the Source of the Matrix, it is the Source of the machines as a whole.

He says the OTHER door "leads back to the matrix, to her and to the end of your Species."

And it is 7 men and 16 women, not what you said (two women for each man if you caount Neo as well).

And he says THIS is the Sixth version, not that there were six beforehand.

So please check your facts.

I didnt read the last two pages of this thread but you guys are really stretching things here. Why do some of you believe the W brothers are big Tanrantino fans and love to this scene skipping and rewinding crap? Give me a break. This will all be realized next week, the movie is straight forward.

This is simply telling the machines that he's going to show people the Matrix isnt real. Not ALL people. If he went on television, did an interview and showed the world his superman abilities, the entire Matrix would crash and everyone would die. He cant free everyones mind at the same time like that. Even if they COULD wake up in their pods, they would be defenseless. Theyre weak and have no muscle stregth, theyd be easy killing for the machines. So this is why Neo was freeing minds a few at a time.

i didnt think the One would go to the next zion, unless he is just another form of control to make the next one control and so on....

Of course the One goes to the next Zion, hence the legend of the One who woke the first humans and taught them of the Matrix. That would be Neo's predecessor.

yeah, but then the One would tell everyone "noooo, the one is just another form of control, dont do it!!!!!!!"

If he did that the machines would eliminate Zion. The One HAS to co-operate with the machines or they will exterminate humanity.

He becomes part of the lie.

Or his memory could be wiped clean. He only remembers waking up from the Matrix and a few other key pieces of information (like the Oracle). Just enough to start the whole ride over again.

i think the one code is placed in a part of the memory that also holds longterm memory, so when the machines remove the one code, they remove his memory, then when they put in the "actual" code, they give him a new memory, or a "cleaned" memory

It's possible. I just assumed the simpler explanation.


if he doesnt in a normal since.. i think his mind atleast will live on within the matrix

The Unknown
Yes, and I think that the matrix changes the new Zion's inhabitants' memories so that they believe that they themselves built the hover crafts, upload discs, constructs, Zion, etc.


I couldn't tell you anything about metal gear. I can tell you that it is a real surveillance system that is in place. If you do a google search on Echelon you'll find a lot of info about it, including some photographs of the facilities, but just for proof it exists I took this quote from www-echelonwatch-org :

ECHELON attempts to capture staggering volumes of satellite, microwave, cellular and fiber-optic traffic, including communications to and from North America. This vast quantity of voice and data communications are then processed through sophisticated filtering technologies.
This massive surveillance system apparently operates with little oversight. Moreover, the agencies that purportedly run ECHELON have provided few details as to the legal guidelines for the project. Because of this, there is no way of knowing if ECHELON is being used illegally to spy on private citizens.

You caught me with the numbers, I didn't have the movie running at the time. Thanks for the correction. I should have remembered 23, because 23 humans is another quasi-biblical reference. Genesis 1:23 is "And the evening and the morning were the fifth day." And the twenty-third chapter of Genesis deals with, not life, but death. Just as a "new" day would dawn on Zion, because the death of the city Neo knows would lead to a life of a new city, new era, new matrix - had he taken the door on the left.

There are many more symbolic meanings of 23 - short of the obvious - it's a prime. But that I leave for another time.

AS for the Architect and the Source. The Architect himself is not the source, he is but a program of which designed the matrix, he is the source of the matrix, AND, this taken into context, is not inside the matrix because you would have this paradox: Which came first the chicken or the egg? -- If the Architect was inside of the matrix, he could not have programmed the first versions of the matrix, he only interacts with it as do we with our computer systems. Neo's code is already out of the matrix at this point then, but needs to complete the process by, excuse the poor metaphor, "rebooting" the system.

Grammatically the architect is talking about "The One's" function in a third person sense, stating that:

The function of the One is now to return to the source allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry reinserting the prime program after which you will be required to select from the matrix 23 individuals, 16 female 7 male, to rebuild Zion. Failure to comply with this process will result in a cataclysmic system crash killing everyone connected to the matrix.

Another way to say this, in a less proper standard english would be:

Your is now to return here, allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry from the matrix and reinserting the prime program. After which you are required to select from the matrix 23 individuals, 16 female 7 male, to rebuild Zion. Failure to comply with this process will result in a cataclysmic system crash killing everyone connected to the matrix.

Because he did not walk through the door on the left, the system changes that needed this "reboot" did not take effect, hindering performance of the matrix mind you, and thus did not come to select the 23 individuals to rebuild Zion. Now the machines are on their way to destroy Zion, and there is the possibility of a cataclysmic disaster when the anomaly reoccurs inside the matrix, if Neo's presence doesn't destroy it first.

And the sixth version, I apologize again, I knew better and should've checked what I typed a little more carefully.

However my point stays the same, the phone call would not be to the architect!! big grin I may have strayed on the details a little embarrasment, but you jumped over what I was trying to say. BTW Not correcting, more of stating my opinion and take on the events - that's what we're here for!

You are still talking with fuzzy logic.. The idea that the Architect cannot enter his own creation is ridiculous. He's made it, it is there, he can enter it if he likes. That should be obvious and there is no logical problem.

Secondly, no mater how much you tak about grammar, you cannot ignore- though you tried- the quote I posted.

"The door to your right leads TO THE SOURCE, and the salvation of Zion."

A door cannot lead TO what you are already in!

I agree. If I was inside my local supermarket, and someone said, "that door leads to the supermarket" I would look at him a little funny.

Neo did not enter the Source. He got close. Maybe something touched in a small way, but there was no connection with the Source. My guess is that happens in M3. Probably the scene of Neo walking down the gold hallway and the one where the light is coming out of or into Neo.

Besides, Neo has his stapler.


First, I'm just curious why you feel you have to try to prove me wrong, when I am only bringing up my theory on the situation? I don't want to get into a pissing contest! I'm just here to express my take on the movie. You're most likely not going to change my thoughts - I'm just contributing them with open-minded and like minded people.

Second, the architect can interface with the matrix, much the same way I interface with my own version of the unix system that I have compiled on one of my computers. So he can, indeed, enter the matrix, but he cannot reprogram the matrix while he is inside. I believe that when he speaks to Neo, they are both outside of the matrix, however they are still in the construct of the matrix. Is that clear enough?

Thirdly, the architect is not the program source code, but he is it's creator - it's source, in that sense. Still, as that, he is but a link in the chain. If you think of the matrix as a unix server on the internet, everyone plugged into the matrix over the network are at a basic user level access. They cannot interact with the matrix other than what it was intended for. Neo, for whatever reason, "hacked" the matrix like a hacker would the unix server (ie: telnetting to a system port and running a buffer overflow to crash and restart the port to obtain superuser permissions). However, just as a hacker would not have immediate root access - but rather superuser permissions inside a shell access - neither does Neo - but his during his conversation with the architect you need to realize that his not in the matrix anymore, but a sub-level of the system - the Construct. If he were to have gone through the door to the right, to the "source" and to the salvation of Zion, he would only have been given root access of the machine mainframe. The movie designed this as if it were a real system, and has the same properties of a system.

Neo's choice to go to the left door only took him right back to the matrix "shell" access, perhaps to find another means to gain "root" access. However, it is possible that since Neo left the actual matrix, and was in the raw construct of the matrix to converse with the architect - that he was inadvertently granted higher access permissions which lead to the problem of choice. What happens if "the One" chooses the left door and we have now given him stronger user rights/permissions? I think this is why the architect has the entire conversation with Neo in the first place. He is, in effect, attempting to appeal to the general love of our species as a form of control, with a one or two percent probability that someone would risk the entire species over one person.

So my answer is, the door only leads you out of shell access with root privileges in the machine mainframe, to true root access - whereabout you would have full functionality of the matrix as if you were the architect. I did not try to fuzzy logic this, or grammatically side step you. There's nothing fuzzy about this. The architect program resides at the root of the mainframe, and he can access the shell construct and even the matrix itself to interface with. He cannot change the matrix while he is running it himself though. Just as a unix server can make changes from root while running without affecting network users, so can the architect with the matrix, and just as the unix server, you cannot be making process calls from a shell on your machine when those changes are implemented.

We can go on about this all day - you still skipped my point: The phone call at the end of M1 was not to the architect.


I apologize, but I had not referred to the architect as the "source" (the machine mainframe as stated in Neo's conversation with the oracle), but he did design it, and thus was the source of it's creation. Perhaps I had not made myself completely clear on this point. Please read my last post as to how I have in visioned the system to be set up.

I just feel Ushgarak has just been trying to change what I expressed as an opinion and possible solution to the puzzle into something that I expressed as fact and then prove me wrong. It started with the number of people who Neo would have to choose (23 is the correct number not 27 as I misquoted - I admit it!!). However I was only trying to point out that for reasons of placement, and certain events, I did not believe that the phone call would have been to the architect as I stated to Mist and The Unknown - and then I replied to AliasNeo15, where I made some mistakes in the details but my point never changed. That would be where we're at now, since Ushgarak has been hounding me since.

But I don't mind big grin I like a good debate, and I know I can sometimes be sloppy with my type stick out tongue

The Omega

omega> now, you could have split that into 3 posts and made it readable ..but... oh well, im gunna have 2 pass

Omega> an idea ive been formulating is that the Archies room IS the source, but Neo must be given the choice to enter it, willingly, knowing what is goign to happen...its like, when the camera pans into the screens, we move INTO the choice Neo makes, Neo opening the door would be, essentially, allowing the cycle to be restarted...just an idea...

No, you simply posted correcting others yet made significiant mistakes yourself. That is all the justification I needed to point out those mistakes to you, and others.

Just about everything else you posted- including that post- is pretty irrelevant to me in regard to that. And you stating that Neo was in the Source- complete with utterly erroneous attempt to quote from the Architect- had to be pointed out for the error it was.

Also, no matter what you say, your responses to me have been ridden with bad logic. Like your attempt above to translate the Architect's quote

"The function of the One is now to return to the source "


"Your is now to return here"

No! NOT here! As the Architect specifies, the Source is through the door on the right! All your posting about access and roots is, I am sorry to say, just a massive obfuscation to try and conceal that error. Your theory is itneresting but not relevant to that specific point. It could not be any simpler. Neo is not in the Source. If he went through that door, he would be. And that is all there is to it.

You say:

"Neo did visit the source, the architect was the source!"

and then

"But I had not referred to the architect as the "source"

You then try and change gear but it will do you no good. You are at least misleading and, in actuality, simply mistaken.

Just check your facts more carefully before posting correcting others. Your final opinion about the subject was not what I was referring to.

And that, btw, is an end to it. I do not want another huge post where you try and justifiy it again. You made mistakes, that is it. You may or may not be right about the phone call but you still posted several major errors; I will not see theis thread further distracted as you try and say otherwise again.

Does anyone have any useful commentary to make on the exact subject of the tread?

No biggie.

I don't car about the number. Your anoalagy above is pretty good.
And a good debate is all I am looking for.

JediHDM: i dont think the Arch's room is "THE source" i think that Neo and the crew THOUGHT it was the source, but truly isnt. In the trailers for Teh Rev, it appears that Neo actually doesnt travel to the source. When he's talking to the Oracle, she tells him he needs to "...return to the source, but first you ned the Keymaker..." he got the Keymaker and was sidetracked, but NOW he will go to the source.

in my opinion, i dont think Neo is even the ONE cus he cant remake the matrix as he sees fit, also said by Morpheus, but then again, the Oracle prophesized something that was untrue, so u never know wut happens.

what was untrue about what she prophesized?

People- topic. Or I close. This thread is too big and unwieldly as it is, over 100 posts- topic or nothing.


I have only gone into much deeper detail with you on the subject that was in my first posts, one of which you have only corrected my mistake in the numbers and details that did not deal with my point. I apologize for sloppiness on my behalf of the minuscule details. Now let's let it go.

The Omega

I had not heard that comment about his mind touching the source, I have actually not had time to play Enter The Matrix, but it's interesting to hear and, I feel, it only solidifies my point! Thanx for the support! I am only trying to look at it from a knowledge of advanced computer systems, since this is what we are dealing with, and it is what I do for a living. big grin


Interesting thought. Works with what I was trying to say, yet it's different. I like it. smile So Neo's choice, that we see in the monitors, and through his choice in the which door, is the process call for how the programs respond and restart the current cycle? Am I following you on that?

well, i think Omega pretty much summed up the fact that Matrix ends before reloaded begins, so...

Yeah, I would be willing to take that as muchly the end of it as well. Are there more useful comments?

meta> something like that, except they can only restart the current cycle by Neo entering the "right" door, or so we are led to believe...

and yes, i think that would be the end.

Hey, what did I just say about topic... you can start a new thread for that kind of talk!

ok, ok, consider a new topic started...and close this one, its done been finished.

now im being the devils advocate to myself, like an idiot:

In the end of the Matrix, look at Neo's clothes. Then look at the clothes he is wearing in the teaser at the end of Reloaded. They are identical. He has a black tie and the same everything. I didnt see all the clothes on him, but just the top, and now im kinda thinkin that wayyes

you know how many times any thread has gone "off-topic" probably every thread thats ever been started in any forum on the net

Yup, and around here such topics are closed if they are over 100.

Well, looks like I am closing then. Any spin-off topic you wish to close over- open a new thread!

Opened this up because, DONG, look how wrong it was!

How it was in any way debated after Omega's very logical dismissal of the timescales involved is beyond me though.

well, ush, things happen, people are stubborn, myself included...

Wow, a revived thread...


Omega wasn't the only one who dismissed it!! I never thought there was any other logical place for it to go, other than where it was. smile


It's the one! lol

LOL... It's beginning to believe. Woops, we better keep it on topic or it'll be killed again.

As far as I can see -- the discussion is over. Ushgarak only resurected it to have an ontopic thread to post his "Hey this thread was wrong" post. lol smile What else is there to discuss?

It would have been so cool if this theory was correct.

...maybe..... shifty

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