Several threads have become hijacked by certain posters whose keeness to talk about their own interpretation of the philisophical points raised by the Matrix (which, frankly, are nowhere near as complex as many think) has risen to overcome the actual point of a thread and replace it with a subject which a lot of posters have very little interest in. Far be it from me in the normal run of things to discourage intellectual conversation but not only are many of these threads not the time or place, a lot of what is being said is simply opinion dressed in philisophical veneer with little sense behind it.
Henceforth, all such talk on ANY of these philisophical issues belongs in here and nowhere else. Any attempt in any other thread to start talking about such issues will be edited.
Incidentally, I would like to think that any philisophical talk would be tempered by some common sense rather than self-congratulatory intellectualism. I am sure a certain effort will be made to see that I am not disappointed.
Meanwhile the other threads will be left to fans who do not want to wade through pages of what COULD- and with some sympathy- be seen as pretentious twaddle simply to talk about the film.
Thankyou for your co-operation. If this thread proves successful and sensible enough than specific philosophical threads on specific issues may result.
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Last edited by Ushgarak on Jun 6th, 2003 at 08:07 PM
mmm I agree,
while the Matrix and it's sequels do raise a lot of philosophical questions and theories... the discussions about them were getting too bloated and ignorant. I think that people shouldn't use philosophy as a guise for their own personal vendettas...
not that I'm trying to be rude to or offend anyone who started and/or participated in any such posts( I may have myself.. don't remember) nor do I claim to have any philosophical knowledge.. I'm just agreeing w/ the idea for one main thread for philosophical discussion...
How do you know it is one matrix? I am not saying there is more than one, nor that there is one, what I am saying is we can't count anything out with the W. brothers in charge. They are full of surprises. I am sure there were alot of people who didn't expect to see Smith again, or that the whole reason for the one is to start Zion over. They are known to surprise.
__________________ "If you do a bad thing for a good reason, does that bad thing become a good thing? Or is it still a bad thing? And if so, how can it possibly be good to do it?
I too, don't think there is more than one matrix, but I won't allow myself to assume. The W. brothers are great at making us be surprosed.
__________________ "If you do a bad thing for a good reason, does that bad thing become a good thing? Or is it still a bad thing? And if so, how can it possibly be good to do it?
The layers of the matrix or programs written on top of programs is the obvious "twist" that movie goers are being lead to believe. One thing is hard to ignore. The fact that multiple Neos exist running through the same loop over and over again though in itself not unlikely, if the same person is given the same situation he will make the same choice. However, in the real world a human with the ability to "hack" into the system is almost certain to exist but would he look like neo every time?
I don't want to be irritating and point out the obvious and I'm sorry if I DO end up annoying you, but we can't help but be philosophical about it because thats what they want us to do!If you think about it, the whole reason the W bros. have been so successful and everyone agrees that they are "full of surprises" is cos they let you believe so many things and then when the films actually come out you realise that you've been thinking exactly as they wanted you to with all the hints etc...given!!
This is just my opinion tho...
THEY basicly just want you to pay for the ticket as many times as possible. PPl over analising every digit in the movie is just a gotten out of hands bonus. AS ush says...many ideeas are nowhere near as complex as many think
Without the presence of a second Matrix, how do you explain Neo defeating the machines as a human, in the "real world". Also, a theory that, at this time in the movies, has no relevance....the counselor, the old man that took Neo out on the engineering decks, could he be the 5th chosen one? Even Neo himself brought up the point that every counselor was, well...old. Could the people who make up the present Zion counsel be the orginal "re-builders" of Zion before Neo? If Zion is destroyed every 100 years, as Morphus mentions, and the cousleor was "set-free" at age 11, assuming the went thru the process to find the "one door"....that would make him 111 yrs old. Everyone has their purpose, and the 5 before Neo failed in that purpose. Zion deserved death as the W bro's so clearly demonstrated in that way too long orgy scene. Neo is to defeat the Matrix, not Smith but the irony is laid on thick when it is in fact the purpose of Smith to defeat Neo.
no i doubt the counselour or anyone else has been a ONE. It says for you to rebuild Zion you have to be picked from the matrix. Since all fighting rebels are not in the matrix they are out of the running.
Lyricalgansta> It’s been discussed a gigazillion times around here, why Neo could tsop the sentinels. His mind touches the source, it was separated and that is why he went into a coma, and probably why he could stop the machines, as his mind sits right there in the grande remote control.
Harmann is way too young to be the fifth One. I don’t think any of the real humans are the One. His digital self may be roaming the Matrix though (as in, who’s that guy with the beard from Enter the Matrix and the Revolutions trailer)?
“Zion deserved death as the W bro's so clearly demonstrated in that way too long orgy scene.”
So you’re saying humanity deserves death because they have a party, dance and make love?? Isn’t thar bordering on a medieval POW?
__________________ "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
-Voltaire
"That includes ruining Halloween because someone swallowed a Bible."
"I just thought you were a guy."
"... Most guys do."
lol, omega handles the matrix philosophy better than anyone here. congratulations. The matrix teaches us that we become too dependent on machines to do our dirty work and some are acceptable. but when we start pumping some common sense into machines, then it starts to get dangerous. we become too lazy and have the machines do everything without a thought to us. i guess technology should stop right here, but that would undermine everything the term "technology" stands for. technology needs advancement to be legally called that term and when we advance too far, the matrix is a representation of what our future holds for us. The talk between the religious old guy and neo in zion meant much more.
Member> Ah, I’m glad that some other people around here didn’t view the Harmann/Neo talk as some long boring filling. This far EVERYTHING that transpires in the movies means something, it isn’t just there for the heck of it (otherwise, the W-bros could’ve settled for 2 hours, and not 2 h 18 minutes, which is way to short anyways ).
The Oracle tells Neo, that only by working together will “they” survive. Harmann muses on machines to sustain life for humanity and machines on their way to end humanity. It’s a mind-boggling debate. We have tons of machines today, and they keep getting smarter, so that in perhaps five years my washing-machine will itself call a repairman if its broken.
Since the dawn of homo sapiens we’ve been busy trying to make a living, utilising our intelligence to get the basics to sustain life.
Will mankind one day make itself obsolete? When machines do all the work, what will we do? What if the machines eradicate poverty, starvation and disease? Will we get bored to death or finally turn to the things that really matters, or have we become so dependent on misery, that we wouldn’t know what to do? I suppose that’s part of the first matrix, that both Smith and the Architect talks about.
__________________ "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
-Voltaire
"That includes ruining Halloween because someone swallowed a Bible."
"I just thought you were a guy."
"... Most guys do."
that's just it. we used our intelligence to survive and yet our own intelligence is whats gonna kill us. somehow i think the human race wasn't meant to be here on earth that long. probably another 10 thousand years and human beings go byebye. and the architect said that the first matrix failed because it was too perfect, no misery, poverty, or suffering and the humans rejected the first one. human beings need misery to keep them alive. there mind needs to be challenged.
For our history man has been working on a way to make life easier. This is why tools and later machines were created. Like at the dawn of civilization the more free time we have the greater we become. By free time i mean time we dont have to spend sustaining ourselves.
With the start of farming and permanet cities man began to do great things like invent writing and other things needed to become a civilization.
I think if we get to a point where machines can take care of all of our physcial needs we will really be great. Think there will be no need for crime because everyone will be taken care of. All needs are met. So now we have all of humanity working on other things like arts and sciences. I cant wait for that day to come. Hopefully in my lifetime or somewhere close.
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Jun 6th, 2003 08:04 PM
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