In life you may have noticed that seldom are things truly 'black and white' -- life is much more complex than this simple formula. The shades of grey between the two extremes are many and varied. It can be difficult at times to distinguish between what is 'light' and what is 'dark.'
1) THE LIGHT and THE DARK
In life you may have noticed that seldom are things truly 'black and white' -- life is much more complex than this simple formula. The shades of grey between the two extremes are many and varied. It can be difficult at times to distinguish between what is 'light' and what is 'dark.'
For the purposes of fiction, however, we simplify a great deal. Lucas has (as usual) painted a picture of the Jedi and the Sith with fairly large brushstrokes, but there are some telling points he makes.
LIGHT = serving the forces of Good
Good is still a relative term, however, especially in the Star Wars storyarc. When we begin (at Episode 1) we see the Light as serving forces of Order, and the Dark as serving the forces of Chaos. By the time we get to Episode 4, however, the roles have reversed. The forces of Order are now represented by the Sith-- Lord Vader and Emperor Palpatine. So how do we define Light, if we don't define it as serving the forces of Order?
Put simply, the opposites of Dark and Light are best represented in SW by those who display the highest degrees of Greed and Compassion, respectively. Greed motivates the Sith-- selfishness, self-aggrandizement, taking without thought of giving back, using people unfairly, all to achieve a private goal and dominance. Others are seen in a rather sociopathic way, as either a useful tool toward achieving the ends, or as the 'enemy.' Compassion motivates the Jedi-- helping without thought of reward, and keeping the peace even if it means sacrificing one's own life.
Now the fact of the matter is, the Force itself does not take sides. That's right, the Force doesn't care about Light and Dark, greed and compassion. It does not attribute good or bad to anything... it is simply the Force, and there is grave danger in attributing any anthropomorphic quality to it. Even saying that one 'serves the greater good' can lead to supporting the Emperor's plan. After all, the Sith serve the greater good in their own way, establishing Order at the behest of the Emperor, running a really 'tight ship' in terms of government, industry, technology and the like. Ordinary people might look at this and say, 'yes, this is Good. the world is a better place with a tight government that doesn't tolerate law-breaking.' Just as the Republic of old did, so too the Empire (in Episodes 4 through 6) served the masses. So chaos and order are not distinctly 'good' or 'bad'.
If the Force 'cares' about anything at all, it 'cares' about balance. Thus the struggle for power by both sides all throughout history, a struggle we see in the world around us, and in our own lives every day.
If this seems like a strangely cold and objective way of looking at the Force, well, it is. In Lucas' universe, there is no monotheistic deity who presides over the struggle. There is only the Force-- an otherwise-unnamed and faceless 'energy' if you will, moving through the galaxy and holding it all together. I liken it to the tao, and there is an old saying, "The tao that can be named is not the true tao."
A simple equation. There are other pairs of opposites you can insert and not lose the validity of the equation itself. But what about the Grey?
Traditionally, a Jedi in the old Republic serves the Council, and the Jedi Order at large. They follow a strict Code, some of which we are familiar with through the novelizations of the SW movies.
A Sith serves himself, or his Master (eg, Darth Sidious). He generally has no thought of serving the larger whole nor does he think about the 'other' as someone to put before himself. Even his service to a Master is strictly selfish, a desire to increase his own knowledge and power, at whoever's expense it becomes necessary to do so.
2) THE GREY
A GREY JEDI however, primarily serves the Force.
A Grey Jedi is more interested in balance, just like the Force.
A Grey Jedi does not eschew using 'Dark' powers to achieve the greater good. In fact, a Grey Jedi might not even see things in terms of Light or Dark, though it's hard to imagine having that mindset in the midst of the Jedi Temple. (Difficult, but not impossible.)
To a Grey Jedi, the Republic, and the Jedi Council, are secondary to serving the Force.
When it comes down to either doing the bidding of the Force, or doing the bidding of the Council, there is no question-- "I shall do what I must" to serve the Force, even if it means going against what the Council wishes, even if it means using the Dark Side, even if it means going to extremes that would otherwise be considered inappropriate for a Jedi.
Being Grey is, perhaps, a reversion to a previous state of things. According to the sources we have, the Jedi were once an order of philosophical monks. Thus they initially devoted their lives entirely to the study of the Force, heeding the Force before anything else. Whereas the Jedi of late Republic times had become mired in politics. Naturally, that created an atmosphere where serving the Force was of secondary importance to the duties of keeping the peace and meting out justice-- serving the Republic.
In Real Life, we see much the same phenomenon in most schools of organized spirituality. Things become heirarchical and the spirit of the original philosophy ossifies through distinterest and even, sometimes, disuse. Ultimately, no matter how long one has spent under its care and protection, if one is to truly investigate and listen to the calling of the Force one begins to flirt with disobedience to the Mother Sect (whatever it happens to be).
It's not the same thing as turning one's back on the teaching (as with the Sith) nor blind obedience to its interpretations (as with the Jedi). The Grey find themselves instead questioning the right of other beings to dictate the will of the Force for them.
One might even call the Grey a Reformist movement.
ok when i read this i seriously changed my outlook on the entire aspect of jedi vs sith. i think honestly the grey jedi are the true masters of the force. i dont belive there were ever many of them though. but i jus want some thoughts and opinoins.
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Last edited by Tengu on Jul 15th, 2005 at 12:04 PM
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Oh geez, not more Grey Jedi gobbledigook. The whole 'Grey' thing has been made up by clueless fans who have entirely missed the point of what GL has been trying to say.
The Light Side of the Force is GOOD. The Dark side is EVIL. There is nothing that can be at fault with the Light Side because it is the very representation of what good IS. Furthermore, Star Wars has an entirely Black and White morality- GL deliberately designed it that way. And Balance is served by the Good. That again is GL's word.
Using the Dark Side makes you evil. Full stop. No argument.
Incidentally, the Jedi serve the Republic because it is the right thing to do. And they are NOT mired in politics.
Adolescent hogwash. all of it. Any fan into 'Grey' stuff loses my respect immediately.
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Last edited by Ushgarak on Jul 15th, 2005 at 12:24 PM
Registered: Feb 2005
Location: Hiding from zombies
Ush is 100% right here. GL, who read upwards of 50 books on philosophy and religion prior to making the movies, describes balance as being served when evil is vanquished. He does not budge on this. A similar morality was shown by Socrates, who argued that morality was as simple as black and white, even though others tried to put a grey spin on it.
I also think Grey Jedi are just plain stupid. But then, I hate the Vong as well, since they are not a dark side enemy. ANd since Star Wars is about the conflict between good and evil via the Force, the Vong should not even be present. Funny thing is, if the Emperor had still controlled the centralized Empire, he may have been better able to repel the Vong.
i dont think its stupid. it answers the question of having both light and dark powers. meaning is there a between. besides if you didnt know its in kotor 2 so i guess ur calling them clueless fans without any repecet.
all i wanted was an opinion i dont think you need to downcast the thread.
if so dont even reply jus read it and go on about ur business.
the grey jedi are still part of the jedi order. but im saying the sith use powers of dark and dark only while the jedi use light powers and light powers only. there wuldnt really need to be a need to master them both if you have a good amount of knowlege and power in both. meaning the grey are all-around vs just one belief or side.
so let me put it this way well rounded fighter vs powerhouse fighter
rounded fighter vs speedy fighter
Registered: Feb 2005
Location: Hiding from zombies
Alright, I can see where you're going with this. But you are overlooking the fact that Yoda has extensive knowledge of both sides of the Force, and Dooku, though a bit weak in the Sith lore, was a Jedi master of repute. So one does not have to be Grey and to follow that ideal in order to be balanced.
Absolutely, I could not have said this better myself.
The ideal of "balance" is simply when the evil side, the dark, no longer exists, and poetic justice and harmony is restored. In this respect, GL never uses the "shades of gray" mentality, but absolutely represents everything as a sign of "black and white". When an individual posseses fear, that can lead to anger, which can lead to hate, which can lead to black. So by virtue of discourse, fear, or anger, or something thereof, is a black, or EVIL dark side emotion.
It's a very simple concept. The "gray" hardly exists.
sith and jedi are just titles that break the galaxy up into light and dark.
now dont get me wrong i like the whole jedi sith thing, but its not jus an ideal. wha they belived in was serving the force. and polotics truly had no voice or and concern whatsoeve in their affairs. all they cared was serveing the force. the sith care about power and the jedi care about keeping the peace. but in order to do that they must serve the central power, the republic. so ushagark is wrong about the jedi not being mired in polotics because they are. if they werent mired in polotics they wuldnt really give damn about the republic or the senate. the grey jedi think that all that is second to serving the force.
let me make it plain and simple. if the jedi werent mired polotics and truly cared about brining balance they wuld not have fought in the clone wars because that was a power struggle between the seperatist and the republic. a war that wuld most likey not change the very balance of the force.
Registered: Feb 2005
Location: Hiding from zombies
True, but the Jedi cannot afford to be impartial like the Grey Order because they serve and protect the Republic, as they have for generations. Thus, they cannot serve the Force and only the Force. And it is because of this that SIdious undermined and destroyed them.
no thats not what balance is......im sorry but thats not the true meaning of balance. balance is equality on both sides. and in lucas galaxy there never was balance because there was always evil. even after the death of the empire there was stil evil beacuse of the imperial remnant and then there was dark jedi running around. so if what ur saying is that balance is defined by destryoing all evil.....when will this balance ever be achieved?
Registered: Feb 2005
Location: Hiding from zombies
Not by destruction. Vanquished means defeated, not destroyed. Evil must be smitten down because EVIL seeks to upset the balance that GOOD preserves. It is straightforward.
which brings me to another point sidious thought that he culd destroy the jedi through polotics and he suceeded...very well i might add. serving the republic was their downfall, getting themselves into a war got them killed. Dooku left the order because he felt that they weakend themselves but serving a weak instuions such as the republic. well that seems like a good enough reason to leave to me. which is why the jedi arent capable of brining balance by trying to keep the peace in the galaxy because there will never be peace. there will always be some faction or cult that will always bring some kind of chaos to the galaxy.
ok let me put it this way, the jedi are capable, its really all a matter of getting ur true priorities together.
yes that is how evil is defined. the sith cared about destroying the jedi. they had their priorties together. the jedi on the other hand are to busy trying to fix evrything. they were too caught up in things that were irrerelevant to the force (the republic).thats why they culdnt sense sidious evn when they were same room. it had got to a point where the dark side had become so strong that the jedi culdnt even sense the dark lord of the sith when he was standing right in front of them.
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Last edited by Tengu on Jul 15th, 2005 at 09:31 PM
Jul 15th, 2005 12:01 PM
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