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Home » Star Wars » Star Wars: Literature & Expanded Universe » Why Valkorion is more powerful than Palpatine.


Why Valkorion is more powerful than Palpatine.
Started by: AncientPower

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AncientPower
The Chosen One

Registered: Aug 2014
Location: The balance of the Force


 

Why Valkorion is more powerful than Palpatine.

For years we have witnessed the argument that Sidious unbalancing the Force was infact the product of the greatest Force feat of all time. I will prove why it is not.

Firstly and most importantly, the feat was the product of two Sith in unison:

quote:
The shift had been the outcome of months of intense meditation, during which Plagueis and Sidious had sought to challenge the Force for sovereignty and suffuse the galaxy with the power of the dark side.


Secondly, the feat was accomplished against no form of serious tangible resistance:

quote:
Brazen and shameless, and at their own mortal peril, they had waged etheric war, anticipating that their own midi-chlorians, the Force’s proxy army, might marshal to boil their blood or stop the beating of their hearts. Risen out of themselves, discorporate and as a single entity, they had brought the power of their will to bear, asserting their sovereignty over the Force. No counterforce had risen against them. In what amounted to a state of rapture they knew that the Force had yielded, as if some deity had been tipped from its throne. On the fulcrum they had fashioned, the light side had dipped and the dark side had ascended.


quote:
While midi-chlorians appeared to resist manipulation of a sort that might imperil the balance of the Force, they remained passive, even compliant, in the case of a weak-willed being manipulated by one who was strong in the Force.


Instead the Force conceived the Chosen One, as a means of restoring the balance from the Sith threat which equated to both Sidious and Plagueis:

quote:
"Midi-chlorians are not easily persuaded to execute the dictates of one newly initiated in the mysteries. The Force needs to be won over, especially in work that involves the dark side. It must be reassured that a Sith is capable of accepting authority. Otherwise it will thwart one’s intentions. It will engineer misfortune. It will strike back.”


This was actually as a result of manipulating Darth Plagueis' own experiments:

quote:
Anakin’s mother, Shmi, confirmed in her own words what Qui-Gon had already suspected—the boy was immeasurably strong in the Force. Neither knew of Darth Plagueis’s suspected involvement in inducing midi-chlorians to create life, though Shmi informed Qui-Gon that Anakin had no natural father.
Palpatine had carefully cultivated Anakin's hopes for preventing this dire premonition, and had revealed everything to Anakin: Palpatine's secret identity as Darth Sidious. His murder of his own Master, Darth Plagueis. The role that the Sith had played in creating Anakin by manipulating the midi-chlorians.


This is generally misconstrued and even outright exaggerated to suggest that Sidious and Plagueis are of a premier threat. In actuality, Sidious and Plagueis together shifted the Force against no real form of resistance and Plagueis himself conceived the boy without his own knowledge, by the will of the Force.

This is often used as a counter argument against the Sith Emperor Vitiate, ironically indicating that only Plagueis and Sidious together have performed feats of greater import.

The Sith Emperor was capable of a galactic scale ritual in which all flora and fauna would perish and be consumed by the Sith Emperor himself so as to achieve godhood. Furthermore this act would reduce every star innthe galaxy to a drained black corruption, all planets would be turned to ash and the galaxy would be dead:

quote:
The darkness will consume all it touches. Stars will burn black, ashes raining on lifeless worlds. Everything ends.


This is merely a greater manifestation of the Emperor's prior rituals, which is stated to be the power of the dark side taken to its extreme:

quote:
Whispered rumors have persisted of planets snuffed out through intricate Sith rituals or by way of deadly, arcane machines--such as the device Revan sought to employ on Yavin 4--but Ziost represents a clear display of the corrosive power of the dark side of the Force taken to its extreme.


quote:
But what had happened on Nathema was different, and it disturbed him in a deep and profound way.

The Emperor had consumed everything. Life, sound, color, even the Force—nothing remained.

Everything on Nathema had simply been snuffed out, extinguished so completely that it ceased to have any meaning or purpose. It was a vacuum of existence; a blight on the natural order.


This ritual is dismissed by many for a number of reasons, which I will now seek to debunk as fallacious:

Firstly, we have the idea that the empowerment of a dark side nexus was a reauirement for the Emperor, this is in and of itself ridiculous. The dark side nexus of Dromund Kaas is a product of the Emperor's own rituals, at great expense to his own energy reserves:

quote:
Power hungry, the Emperor spent great energy discovering and perfecting esoteric rites of darkness – rituals that wrecked the atmosphere of Dromund Kaas, transforming the ionosphere into a swirling electric storm.


quote:
Burial place, prison, and reliquary, the Dark Temple was built on the orders of the Emperor to seal away powerful artifacts and the Emperor's enemies, both alive and dead. The temple became a nexus of dark side energy as the Emperor performed rituals within, drawing strength and knowledge from his captives.


The Dread Masters created the incredible dark side nexus of Oricon utilising a mixture of rituals, the seeds and the Phobis Devices:

quote:
"The Dread Masters possess incredible, unprecedented power over the dark side of the Force; a power developed through rituals created by one of their own, the incomparable Sith alchemist known as Styrak."


quote:
"Their name was earned when they studied the power of the Phobis devices, artifacts that have driven even the most depraved Sith mad with terror."


quote:
"Fear is a powerful weapon, and those who wield it can rule the galaxy. The Phobis devices were constructed for just that purpose. Brimming with dark energy, their mere presence was enough to spark crippling horror in the bravest of minds. Many Sith who meditated on the devices were driven mad by their attempt. Only the lost Sith Dread Masters successfully harnessed and perfected the Phobis devices' frightening power."


quote:
"Oricon is a remote moon that is immeasurably strong with the dark side – a perfect home for the feared Dread Masters!"


quote:
"Oricon was affected by the Dread Masters."


Yet the combined power of the Dread Masters, and thus Oricon itself, are insignificant compared to the Emperor:

quote:
"The Dread Masters changed Oricon. Even their combined power is insignificant compared to the Emperor."


There is a very clear and obvious reason why the Emperor renders any dark side nexus completely insignificant compared to him. Because he absorbed the power of the strongest dark side nexus ever to occur during the Nathema ritual:

quote:
The ritual lasted ten days. Lord Vitiate orchestrated the sorcery and the planet Mediraas was consumed by the largest dark side nexus the galaxy would ever see. When the ritual ended, Lord Vitiate emerged as the only survivor. The pain, energy, and suffering of every living entity on the planet fueled his power and would prolong his life for centuries. The lifeless planet of Mediraas became a void in the Force and was erased from history. From that moment forward, the world would forever be known as Nathema, birthplace of the one and only Sith Emperor.


He is for all intents and purposes the very embodiment of the dark side itself:

quote:
A mysterious, almost godlike avatar of the dark side.


quote:
The Emperor is more than a man - he is the living embodiment of the dark side.


quote:
The Emperor is the dark side incarnate.


Even Sith such as Darth Bane outgrew the artifacts and relics of ancient times:

quote:
Zannah knew he looked on the rings, amulets, and other paraphernalia with disdain. The spark of the dark side that burned within them was like a single drop of rain falling into the ocean of power he already commanded; he saw no need to augment his abilities with gaudy jewelry fashioned centuries ago by ancient Sith sorcerers.


Yet the rituals which Vitiate enacted, were far beyond Darth Bane's scope of comprehension:

quote:
Bane could barely wrap his mind around their awesome potential. Some of the rituals were so terrible-so dangerous to attempt, even for a true Sith Master-that he doubted he would ever dare to use them.


__________________

Within your furnace heart, you burn in your own flame. This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker.

Old Post Nov 1st, 2016 11:03 AM
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AncientPower
The Chosen One

Registered: Aug 2014
Location: The balance of the Force


 

The second claim made to dismiss Sith Emperor Vitiate's galactic ritual is that he required a Galactic War to fuel him, this is also clearly incorrect. The Emperor sent out numerous agents to enact the necessary sacrifice for the ritual, yet any one agent's success would have achieved that sacrifice:

quote:
"Corellia is in a state of total war. The Republic and Empire aren't holding back anything. The losses are staggering, and not just military. Thousands of civilians die every hour."
"And each death brings the Emperor closer to his goal."


So a correct measure would be millions of deaths, not the fallacious claim that galactic scale deaths are a requirement.

Considering all of this, one must ask the question which aid is more significant, the fact that Darth Plagueis and Darth Sidious had each other's power fueled by months of intense meditation or millions of Corellian sacrifices. There is no comparison whatsoever, an extremely powerful Sith Lord is immeasurably superior aid to a mere sacrifice of millions.

But the difference doesn't end here, there is an outstanding disadvantage that Vitiate suffered during the ritual that only further proves how fallacious the Sheev supporters dismissal of this feat is. Vitiate was suppressing the powers of his daughter Vaylin simultaneously:

quote:
"Her strength in the Force is astounding, even for her family."


quote:
From the moment his daughter, Vaylin, was born, Valkorion felt her strong connection to the Force. As she grew up, the Immortal Emperor noticed similarities between them, which both pleased and frightened him, and he decided to keep a tight leash on his favorite child. Her father's control curbed her tendencies toward violence and anarchy, but beneath her upbeat and lighthearted exterior lurked a restless hunter, hungry and ambitious. When most of the Emperor's power was locked away on Yavin 4, he was no longer able to hide Vaylin's strength from her, and she finally got a taste of her full capabilities.


Vitiate's ritual is absolutely and undeniably greater than that of the combined efforts of Darth Plagueis and Darth Sidious; and he was capable of performing the feat whilst simultaneously suppressing the powers of an extremely powerful Force user such as Vaylin, whom as a mere child telekinetically crushed numerous Knights of Zakuul.

Furthermore one must consider the fact that Vitiate is far from his prime as the Immortal Emperor Valkorion:

quote:
With each rebirth, he grew stronger. His machinations became grander. The pain and suffering he unleashed became greater. Some believed his ultimate goal was conquest: the complete subjugation of every world, known and unknown. Others believed he sought annihilation: the consumption of every living being in the galaxy, until he alone remained.


One must remember that Vitiate enacted the Ziost Cataclysm:

quote:
Obsessed with achieving immortality, the Sith Emperor has targeted his own former subjects on the planet Ziost, with every death seemingly extending his dark power.


quote:
Now that he has found in Ziost a suitable target to replenish himself--now that he appears to grow more powerful by the hour--what now?


This act of destruction required no rituals as it had at Nathema, as it is pointed out that Vitiate post-Nathema had become so powerful that he no longer required such aid:

quote:
"Is that possible?" he asked. "Nyriss told me the ritual on Nathema took days, if not weeks. And the Emperor had to trick hundreds of other powerful Sith into working with him so he could draw on their power."

"He's stronger now," Revan said


Noting that Valkorion had gained a degree of incorporeal immortality after these events, to a degree that even Reborn Emperor Palpatine failed to attain:

quote:
Voices... Hands... Children... I no longer require those crude vessels. At long last I am truly free.


Compared to Reborn Palpatine:

quote:
The ability to transcend death is not exclusive to Jedi: Emperor Palpatine and the ancient Sith Lords Marka Ragnos managed to preserve their psyches after their deaths, but it seems their spiritual forms were restricted by certain boundaries and limitations. Palpatine's spirit required cloned bodies to manifest his powers.


quote:
He had spent over a year disembodied, formless, drifting through the maddening void of the Dark Side.


quote:
Having survived the destruction of the second Death Star as a ghostly manifestation, I can assure you that it is a most wearisome state to be in. It is not enough to retain one’s powers beyond death, for a noncorporeal avatar can only do so much.


Therefore it is entirely possible that Valkorion's superiority over his Vitiate incarnation would make the act of galactic destruction even easier for him to accomplish.

There is infact plenty in the way of evidence to suggest that Vitiate, was infact capable of consuming the galaxy without a ritual at all, given.the vision of what would happen if Revan was not stopped:

https://youtu.be/NAZOn0mPfTU

Naturally the question is why Vitiate didn't pursue this course of action, the answer is twofold. Firstly, upon return Vitiate wasn't as powerful as he would have been if Revan had succeeded:

quote:
However, he did gain power enough to flee the jungle moon and survive.


Secondly, Vitiate became enlightened by the Ziost Catalysm and clearly disowned his desire for galactic extinction:

quote:
Look around you. Zakuul is poised to become the greatest civilization in the history of the galaxy. I have forged this empire to surmount all of my previous works. To span eternity. The Eternal Throne commands a fleet more vast than any ever built. It has the power to reshape the galaxy into any image that I choose. That we choose. I will share all of this with you… if you will only kneel.


Naturally, the Sheev supporters will fall back onto the Force Storm power to claim that Palpatine has the most powerful Force feat in history:

quote:
He summoned up a huge Force storm, far more powerful than the one that had swept Coruscant.


His most powerful Force Storm was capable of far more damage than what he had done to the western side of Coruscant. It can't begin to compare to the desolation of the galaxy and the satellite galaxies surrounding it.

Valkorion reigns supreme.


__________________

Within your furnace heart, you burn in your own flame. This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker.

Old Post Nov 1st, 2016 11:03 AM
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Ursumeles
Traitor

Registered: Sep 2016
Location: KMC


 

So...Quotes which put Sidious > Vitate, even as of RotS(I mention this, as most feats you mentionened are from this time) and Quotes which put DE Sidious(one as of RotS, as well) > Valk doesn't apply?
Also, Sidious feats are better.


__________________

Old Post Nov 1st, 2016 11:06 AM
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AncientPower
The Chosen One

Registered: Aug 2014
Location: The balance of the Force


 

So no argument then? Accolades have been dismissed handily before.


__________________

Within your furnace heart, you burn in your own flame. This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker.

Old Post Nov 1st, 2016 11:14 AM
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Ursumeles
Traitor

Registered: Sep 2016
Location: KMC


 

Lawl. My argument was that Sidious is canonically superior. But I'll make another one, after eating.
I am waiting for you countering Sidious accolades, btw.


__________________

Old Post Nov 1st, 2016 11:20 AM
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Nephthys
The Gr8est!!!!!!!!

Registered: Dec 2007
Location: The End


 

As Nai pointed out recently, they've all been countered already in many threads.

Anyway, bravo AP. This was an excellent read and a thorough debunking of some of the more egregious Sheevite delusions.


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Old Post Nov 1st, 2016 11:36 AM
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The_Tempest
Senior Member

Registered: Sep 2012
Location: United States


 

Cite your sources, AP. It will expedite the inevitable dissection.

Old Post Nov 1st, 2016 11:40 AM
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Ursumeles
Traitor

Registered: Sep 2016
Location: KMC


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nephthys
As Nai pointed out recently, they've all been countered already in many threads

Not really.


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Old Post Nov 1st, 2016 11:41 AM
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AncientPower
The Chosen One

Registered: Aug 2014
Location: The balance of the Force


 

More than half of them are in-universe and most others are hardly definitive. Vitiate has the accolade of consuming the largest nexus the galaxy would ever see.

But that is assuming Legends accolades are even relevant when SWTOR is its own universe besides Canon and Legends.


__________________

Within your furnace heart, you burn in your own flame. This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker.

Old Post Nov 1st, 2016 11:45 AM
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AncientPower
The Chosen One

Registered: Aug 2014
Location: The balance of the Force


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Cite your sources, AP. It will expedite the inevitable dissection.


I have no need to do so when they're all(mostly) from RTs.


__________________

Within your furnace heart, you burn in your own flame. This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker.

Old Post Nov 1st, 2016 11:47 AM
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The_Tempest
Senior Member

Registered: Sep 2012
Location: United States


 

Per Pablo Hidalgo, SWTOR is Legends.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by AncientPower
I have no need to do so when they're all(mostly) from RTs.


You absolutely need to cite your sources in an argument you make. That's, like, debating 101.

Get on it.

Old Post Nov 1st, 2016 11:50 AM
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Ursumeles
Traitor

Registered: Sep 2016
Location: KMC


 

Credit to ShootingNova:
quote:
Even Ulic Qel-Droma would be envious of Palpatine. He had succeeded where all others had failed in taming the Dark Side.

-The Dark Side Sourcebook
quote:
Indeed, as Vader had warned, the Emperor had become the Dark Side's most powerful expression.

quote:
When the evil Emperor, Supreme Master of the Dark Side of the Force, turned the fullness of his malevolence against Luke, Anakin Skywalker suddenly awoke from the curse that had imprisoned him for so long...

quote:
As Luke's father once said, during the time he served the greatest known wielder of the Dark Side of the Force, the Emperor: "The ability to destroy a planet - or even a whole system - is insignificant next to the power of the Force."

-Dark Empire Endnotes


Also, Force Storms and the Lusyanka feat sh!t on all, what valk has done.


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Old Post Nov 1st, 2016 11:55 AM
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AncientPower
The Chosen One

Registered: Aug 2014
Location: The balance of the Force


 

SWTOR is not influenced by Disney by any means, Lucasfilm themselves have stated they have no intention of meddling with SWTOR and that it exists within its own alternate SW-verse:

quote:
Q: Are_The Old Republic expansions canon?

A: No — BioWare “has created their own universe that is so fantastic,” we’re not going to change it, says Hidalgo.


__________________

Within your furnace heart, you burn in your own flame. This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker.

Old Post Nov 1st, 2016 11:59 AM
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The_Tempest
Senior Member

Registered: Sep 2012
Location: United States


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by AncientPower
SWTOR is not influenced by Disney by any means, Lucasfilm themselves have stated they have no intention of meddling with SWTOR and that it exists within its own alternate SW-verse:


When I get in front of my computer, I'll provide you with 2-3 more recent quotes than that from Hidalgo where he flat out says SWTOR is Legends. I already have 'em screenshotted for occasions like these. 👍

That will give you plenty of time to cite your sources and prepare your proverbial anus for the invasion that will commence.

Old Post Nov 1st, 2016 12:02 PM
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AncientPower
The Chosen One

Registered: Aug 2014
Location: The balance of the Force


 

All of which are irrelevant beyond his timeline.

Did you even read thd OP? Valkorion isn't just capable of unbalancing the Force, he can drain the Force from existence and all but destroy the entire galaxy. Who cares about Force Storms?


__________________

Within your furnace heart, you burn in your own flame. This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker.

Old Post Nov 1st, 2016 12:04 PM
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Ursumeles
Traitor

Registered: Sep 2016
Location: KMC


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by AncientPower
he can drain the Force from existence

With prep, as Plagueis and Sidious have done with their unbalancing. Also, the Force > Galaxy.
quote:
all but destroy the entire galaxy.

Sidious Force Storms can consume all space smile


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Old Post Nov 1st, 2016 12:06 PM
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AncientPower
The Chosen One

Registered: Aug 2014
Location: The balance of the Force


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by The_Tempest
When I get in front of my computer, I'll provide you with 2-3 more recent quotes than that from Hidalgo where he flat out says SWTOR is Legends. I already have 'em screenshotted for occasions like these. 👍

That will give you plenty of time to cite your sources and prepare your proverbial anus for the invasion that will commence.


I wouldn't hold your breath.

Given 99% of your debates don't actually contain content, I'll be sure to urinate from terror.


__________________

Within your furnace heart, you burn in your own flame. This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker.

Old Post Nov 1st, 2016 12:07 PM
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The_Tempest
Senior Member

Registered: Sep 2012
Location: United States


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by AncientPower
Did you even read thd OP?


Reluctantly.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by AncientPower
Valkorion isn't just capable of unbalancing the Force,


The OP never proves that.
But then its author thinks she's above petty things like citing sources, so more demanding aspects of discourse like "proving claims" are probably too much to ask.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by AncientPower
he can drain the Force from existence and all but destroy the entire galaxy. Who cares about Force Storms?


Force storms can consume all of space and don't need centuries or galactic war to be triggered.

Old Post Nov 1st, 2016 12:09 PM
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AncientPower
The Chosen One

Registered: Aug 2014
Location: The balance of the Force


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Ursumeles
With prep, as Plagueis and Sidious have done with their unbalance. Also, the Force > Galaxy.

Sidious Force Storms can consume all space smile


You mean like the months of meditation Plagueis and Sidious needed? Oh and they definitely didn't end the Force itself. Oh and the Force is merely part and parcel of said galaxy.

It 'threatened' to consume a completely undefined measurement of space in their vicinity. (Black holes can't destroy a galaxy, let alone the universe. Physics101)


__________________

Within your furnace heart, you burn in your own flame. This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker.

Old Post Nov 1st, 2016 12:11 PM
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The_Tempest
Senior Member

Registered: Sep 2012
Location: United States


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by AncientPower
I wouldn't hold your breath.

Given 99% of your debates don't actually contain content, I'll be sure to urinate from terror.


Well I could always take a page from your playbook and just tell you SWTOR is Legends without citing the evidence and demand you concede. laughing out loud

Old Post Nov 1st, 2016 12:11 PM
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