I think with the Omniscience he gained, he'd be able to utilize the Power Gem to it's fullest potential by itself. Based on that, Thor wins the fight. But the ALE's has a big mental factor, the antithesis of free will. Would sufficient power enough to overcome it? The big Anti Life monster from Stalin's run was more like a rogue Galactus but the equation itself is usually different from that. Galan, I summon you! I've got my Thor and Wildstorm collection back, but not my New God collection .
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the ale entity was an aberration so i don't think looking at its power is a good way to determine its power. with the ale orion was able to take out ecruos (sp?) and it was a multiversal level entity. the power gem is different from the mind gem. not even sure with power and mind gems he could overcome orion's power with the ale. i'd say orion for sure if all he gets is the power gem as i don't think the power gem has ever been shown to grant infinite WILLpower....
Gender: Male Location: somewhere within time & space
Wow, if warrior madness Thor/PG, who was barely tapping the PG
sub-consciously, yet worried Eternity/Infinity who said with time he
would become a threat to a good portion of All they are ... I can
imagine this beast fully harnessing the PG ... ouch.
I don't eve know much about RKT to be honest, just here and there,
but for those who do know, you can basically now augment his
present abilities into infinity. (nowadays, subject to the confines of a universal "infinity")
Gender: Male Location: Planning to take over the WORLD!
when thor had the power gem he wasn't able to tap its powers to get rid of the valkyrie that was the embodiment of his insanity/madness, whatever you want to call it. not sure how, if he couldn't even use it to handle his own mental issues, he would be able to tap its powers to avoid falling to the ale's usurpation of his will.
ecruos wasn't exactly a multiversal entity, the only way it was destroying existence is by bonding with the tree that held reality in its place, and while bonded, it was killing itself, destroying the universe in the process. the ALE worked on it since it was its antithesis, which makes sense considering the ALE is part of the source, and ecrous is its opposite.
and frankly speaking, being the source's enemy/opposite doesn't tell us much considering the source jumps from being outright called "the one above all" in the spectre series (3rd volume) to being defeated by 3 skyfathers in death of the new gods (though i find its canonicity questionable).
Regarding thor - RKT wasn't omnisceint, at the end of the arc he wanted someone to guide him, clearly shows he was nowhere near that level. We also have thanos giving thor (with the power gem) a hard fight in that SS issue.
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i could likewise say if it was the source's opposite it should NOT have worked. and it depends on what you consider a multiversal entity. clearly it had enormous power, which was my point in bringing it up. that battle also took place outside the bounds of the normal universe (iirc) which means the ale is multiversal in its scope, something the gems are not. i do agree orion wins though. the gem wouldn't grant omniscience, nor would it grant infinite will power. the ale would lie outside the gem's scope and possibly beyond the scope of any of the gems or even the IG.
I remember that. While you do have to have a level of power to have an effect on the World Tree, damaging it doesn't in itself make you a Multiversal power. Enchantress was endangering creation similarly by warping the World Tree which is pretty crazy but not in itself evidence of Multiversal power.
I do like that Simonson used Asgardian elements in his series, IIRC I remember seeing a Thor like figure in the flash back of the Old Gods war. It would have been interesting if Marvel had let Kirby write Ragnarok and then create the New Gods.
Rune King Thor did have the all-seeing sight, the Runes gave him Omniscience. That however doesn't give him Wisdom automatically, a big point of that arc was Thor evolving and gaining the Wisdom of Odin. Which he did by the end.
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Last edited by Rage.Of.Olympus on Jul 30th, 2013 at 03:36 AM
i could give you proof from the issue itself as well as other retellings if you want.
and what has the ALE done to prove that it's multiversal?
no feats as far as im concerned, we have a statement in sandman #4, that says anti life is the end of all universes, though the problem here, is that it was a game challenge (a demon challenged dream of the endless) in which the challengers should state the properties of the entities/items they choose, so im not sure if it can be taken as a fact:
orion was already in the abysmal plane where the tree was located, and even the recent crappy IG was able to effortlessly create a universe from nothingness in FF #611.
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and how exactly bonding to the tree and destroying it is impressive? when we have a random person capable of doing practically the same thing (by killing someone of his own kin), lucifer #54:
wisdom is part of omniscience, im not sure how can you differentiate between them. and at the end of issue 85, literally the last page proves that he isn't omniscient:
sure he had the "sight beyond sight" and even gazed into the gungingap (norse void/nothingness) but he was never omniscient, nor was it even mentioned.
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@golgo13:
the anti life equation and anti life entity are one and the same:
first of all, we learn that the source was separated by 3 skyfathers (death of the new gods #5) and was seeking to reunite with its other half (anti life entity) ever since
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wut? the ecruos wasn't the "opposite" of the source. it actively worked against it. you seemed to want to take the fact that it was opposed to the source as a reason for the ale working on it. the ale was simply more powerful ans so annihilated it.
you may have a point in one sense--when i refer to a multiversal power, i mean a being whose power extends beyond the bounds of any single universe. ecruos had that type of power. if thanos had the IG in our universe could he beat ecruos? who knows. maybe. speculation to say either would win. it's also tangential and was speculation when i raised the issue. this isn't the IG it's one gem. where orion was, the power gem wouldn't even function which to me speaks clearly about the scope of power of the items in question, if not their respective depths. anyway, even if we allow for your definition, that being ecruos was the true, manifested opposite of the source (and that is not how i see it at all, i see antithesis here as meaning enemy, a entity who wanted the opposite of what the source wants) then how would you define its power level? its the opposite but way weaker? it's the equal to half the source's power? all speculation. and they didn't cancel each other out, not completely at least because antilife was not completely destroyed.
ecruos was clearly immensely powerful. the intent was crystal clear. your lucifer scan....really doesn't help. it wasn't some regular guy who could have chopped down the tree. were it that easy fenris would have simply chopped it down. the blood was the thing. ecruos was physically destroying the tree, something fenris couldn't do. and we also see thanks to the scan the extent of the damage that would have been wrought had the tree died. the ending of worldS. even in the orion retelling it says UNIVERSE but it also says ALL EXISTENCE. terminology is NOT consistent enough in anyway, to make an firm stance on. seems a lot more than one universe was at stake to me. you also mentioned the sandman allusion to anti-life. seems crystal clear to me that the ale was a multiversal power, which is all i said. we already agree orion wins so i'm good with that.
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Last edited by leonidas on Jul 30th, 2013 at 02:19 PM
and the retelling tells us they cancelled each other out.
clear as day.
and where's the proof that ecruos had multiversal power? there is a retelling a couple of issues forward that tells us orion saved the multiverse, but i could also post half a dozen scans to confirm what he threatened was only the universe, which is also evident by the fact that when the process started - when the universal destruction started - stars and planets were being destroyed not universes.
you brought up the IG, so i was replying to that, i am aware that thor only has the power gem here (which is why i said he loses)
no, the source (in its whole) is much more powerful than the anti life equation, proven by the fact that when darkseid acquired soul fire, the source was able to give darkseid a good fight (despite that the source lost) whose power utterly dwarfed the anti life equation:
i never said that ecruos isn't powerful, not at all, but his exact power level can't be gauged.
and i brought that lucifer scan to show that it isn't hard to end existence through the tree, (and i already said that it can only be achieved by killing someone of his own blood).
Last edited by operator616 on Jul 30th, 2013 at 03:03 PM
Gender: Male Location: Planning to take over the WORLD!
yah, we're still hung up on terminology. again, multiversal to me reflects SCOPE, not NECESSARILY depth of power. he was a multiversal power/threat, IMO, because he was able to destroy the tree and hence endanger the multiverse at large. you say it was a universal level threat but that doesn't make sense imo. which universe? ours? orion's? the scope of the tree was for certain multiversal imo. the fact that even fenris couldn't destroy it via physical means speaks to its power in some part.
also the idea of antithesis. ecruos was a force of chaos, no doubt, so in that sense yes, it was opposing the force. but not necessarily THE opposite. seems more likely ecruos would be the opposite of the lords of order. by that reasoning, are the lords of chaos also the opposite of the ALE? i don't really even have any issue with your assignation--i took exception to the idea that it was BECAUSE of this 'opposite-ness' that the ALE was able to work against him. that implies that it wouldn't have worked otherwise, which i think is pretty silly since it has worked on all manner of beings, chaos-related or not. or do you not think orion could have overpowered a lord of order with the ALE? imo he certainly could have.
again we're in agreement on a couple things--orion wins, and ecruos's true power can't really be fully gauged. i think we agree it was extremely powerful though as was shown through the context of that arc and was evident by its ability to destroy the tree physically. it was a multiversal threat imo, as the tree itself was a mutliversal entity, and it was defeated by the power of the ALE.
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Jul 27th, 2013 11:00 PM
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undecided as of now.
