I think posters tend to use the wrong percentages when comparing characters 'close' in strength. If you are even 80% of someone's strength, it's pretty close. Figures like 95% often seem just a bit too close.
At any rate, Superman is hard to rate due to him often seeming to have dynamic power. Sometimes it's just that he holds back more than other heroes and Kryptonians. But other writers have provided more explicit dynamic strength mechanisms, like drawing in more solar energy as his emotions become more intense, or his powers being mentally regulated, or even his powers being ultimately based on his will or mind.
What is interesting (and frustrating) is that other Kryptonians or Daxamites never seem to get credited with this kind of dynamic power. Supergirl is especially confusing on this score. You rarely see her Hulk out the way Superman often does.
And on the whole, Orion is below Superman IMO, though he does have quite a few showings implying equality, and some that imply his superiority.
all i know is this. wonder woman crippled an all out superman. yeah yeah i know its injustice superman. but as i stated many times, i do believe it should be canon because injustice superman is just superman under different circumstances that made him act differently. thats why its a different universe.
To BizMarkie:
1. I know you are one of the four main anti-DC/pro-Marvel fanboys, so this is probably a waste of time.
2. Just so you know, I detest the pro-DC/anti-Marvel fanboys just as much as you (though they tend to be, on average, more intelligent and hide their biases better).
3. I believe the thread was looking at STRENGTH, thus Orion ‘beating’ Superman, Lobo ‘beating’ Superman, and/or Black Adam ‘nearly defeating the entire heroes of DC’ has no bearing on the ACTUAL question that was asked.
To All:
Moving away from trolls to the thread, it is always difficult to give percentage portrayals. For three main reasons.
1. Being fictional characters, different writers will depict the characters in different ways. This can be very fluid, and thus one can find feats that clearly depict Superman as easily being above someone like Black Adam, and others that show them as equals. Which is why looking at average depictions is important.
2. In the same manner, characters will even be depicted differently by the SAME writer depending on contextual plot. Which is why in some arcs Martian Manhunter will be written on paper to be ‘the most powerful member of the league,’ and in the arc before he’s been knocked back by Aquaman. Or better yet take Diana - WonderWoman will be shown to be around MM level, the next she is shown as being equivalent to a Kryptonian, in another she is shown as being able to handle Zod and Faora momentarily while Superman works on executing a plan, in the next she is being referred by Superman as the ‘most dangerous’ when he decides to take down the League, and in a similar arc shown handling a Superman that thinks she is Doomsday and killed Lois. Not to mention her durability ...in one story she gets stabbed, and in another story she gets knocked from the sun all the way to the earth ...traveling at several times C considering how quickly she got back, and she’s just a bit shaken! Even with the whole ‘piercing vs non-piercing durability’ that’s a bunch of nonsense.
3. Finally, strength levels. In comics, there is a HUGE difference in hierarchies. For example, if I did a survey and said - if Captain America is a 100 in strength, what is Black Panther, Batman, Punisher, etc. There will be some difference, but it will be close. Eg Cap and BP will both be at 100 (since they are very similar ...almost like a tiger vs lion, where any differences are not that big even when they exist), Bruce will be lower (since he is not enhanced) but not THAT much lower (since he works out like a fiend and has the feats to back it up), and then Punisher will be below that, etc. But all will be close, even though Cap and BP will be higher (even though in feats Bruce does have some showings that indicate maybe he was gulping down SSS or stealing heart shaped herbs ...)
When you come to super powered (real super powered) characters it gets all wonky.
Say you have the Hulk (at his best), Colossus, the Thing, etc. The strength differences between them are VAST! The Hulk would be on a totally different level, and if the Hulk (at his best) is 100, then I’d probably put Colossus at maybe 7? But that doesn’t work and is not elegant, because to ‘normal’ characters Colossus is extremely strong!
The same can be done with super fast characters ...take Flash, Superman, WonderWoman, Black Adam etc. All are crazy fast. But, if you did an honest ranking, Wonder Woman would be so ‘slow’ compared to Flash that he literally ran backwards and was running faster than her (and joking that he thought she was fast when she claimed to have the speed of Hermes, indicating she thought Hermes to be slow).
Then go to Black Adam ...running at what was written to be Mach 500 in WW3. Crazy fast. Makes most depictions of QuickSilver (where he maxed out at Mach 5) seem like a snail!!! But compare that with Superman! During one race with the Flash, where he was trying to catch Flash, it was stated he was moving at 2,000 miles per second. That is over Mach 9,300.
Basically makes Black Adam’s previously impressive Mach 500 look pitifully slow, and Quicksilver would seem to be a living statue.
Then you have the Flash. Even if you discount instances when he outran instantaneous teleportation (assuming he was amped since he was absorbing kinetic energy from everywhere to do that), there are still many instances where his speed is stupendous.
For example when he evacuated a city of just over 500,000 people in 0.00001 of a second by taking the people (multiple trips since he only has two arms) to a point 35 miles away while a nuclear bomb is detonating. That was calculated to be between 9 to 13 trillion times the speed of light.
Thus, in a calculation, of Flash was 100, Superman would be so low as to be impossible to measure (Mach 9,300 is impressive, but not as impressive as 9-13 TRILLION times C speed), and Black Adam and WW May as well not even be measured.
That’s the issue with comics. Powers that change depending on writers, powers that change depending on plot, and when it comes to super powered folk, an impossibility to properly measure when using the likes of Hulk, Superman, Flash, Sentry (especially his higher iterations), etc. Even people like Fate, Strange and even Zatanna can be very difficult to use.
i dont think its too hard, its just lazy writing. for example the recent fight of thor vs juggernaut. the writer was just too lazy to look for a way for thor to win against juggernaut, so he just made thor punch his teeth out. you think the writer doesnt know how jugegrnaut powers work? of course he does. its just that he was too lazy to write anything better that stays true to both characters.
Spetznaz has accurately understood the fundamental inconsistency of comics. However, relative standing tends to be more consistent than measuring feats. That's why feats are irrelevant, really. It's all relative rankings that matter.
That said, even relative rankings vary wildly, too. So you do have to try to find out what seems like the 'average', even if that is very difficult to do.
Comparing Orion and Superman in strength is tough because Superman's strength tends to be more dynamic. Orion can't really match the more potent, usually 'all-out', Superman portrayals. But Orion is typically a peer to Superman in strength on 'regular' days, and also on 'all out' days under many writers who don't really credit Superman with exceptionally dynamic strength.
I agree that the idea of there being canon and non-canon sources, and we can just forget about the latter, is a bad way to look at comics. Everything can shed light. I'm not saying canon and non-canon necessarily have the same weight in one's 'average of a character, but it's worth looking at non-canon sources.
That said, Injustice's take on Superman vs. Wonder Woman is somewhat complex, IMO, and perhaps even somewhat contradictory.
The Juggernaut matter is also not simple. It's not clear that absolute invulnerability was ever a core and universally accepted aspect of Juggernaut's power set. There was a time when this was pushed, but he's also been hurt before.
It's perhaps a bit like classic Superman who was at one point supposed to be totally immune to harm except for his weaknesses. Absolute powers, like a totally unstoppable attack (say Black Bolt's voice), or total immunity to harm (like Juggernaut's durability at times), are burdensome on a writer. They are pretty hard to deal with;and thus, they tend to get watered down over time to being just very high end powers. But the absoluteness goes away. Just like it did with Superman's invulnerability.
i dont recall addressing you. are you seeking attention from me?
i also find it funny you actually went to my profile, in order to look how long am i here. i wonder now, which thread was it that i slapped you so hard to make you triggered? help me with this one...
bruh, its his powers. he was laughing at a freakin godblast from thor. but i get what you are saying, there was a lot of lazy writing that allowed juggernaut to get hurt.
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Jun 14th, 2018 10:40 PM
