- Defeated an older, more experienced Obi-Wan (Yes, he gave up, but Obi Wan stated in the ANH Novel that he would have defeated Vader if he could have, he couldn't)
- Vader states in the Shadow of the Empire novel that his cyborg self > his Jedi self
- Him being slow was due to the technological limitations of the time. It's true he lost speed, but look at Grievous, also a Cyborg. Vader would be around his speed in the newer movies (unless the Emporer cut Vader's suit's budget LOL)
- He can force choke people from across the Galaxy.
Darth Malak is no pushover as well.
- Punked two Jedi Knights easily
- Learned from Darth Revan
- Has a variety of (GAMEPLAY) Force powers and fancy Lightsaber moves, even though he only used Force Drain and Force Lightning in the cinematics.
Registered: Feb 2005
Location: Hiding from zombies
Re: Darth Vader (ROTJ) vs Darth Malak.
It'll be close, but I think Vader takes it.
I have to disagree.
Feats:
Feats need to be clarified and applicable to the fight or they are moot. This is not an accomplishment battle.
- Took on 8 Jedi at once.
Hm. Source? Specifics?
- Defeated an older, more experienced Obi-Wan (Yes, he gave up, but Obi Wan stated in the ANH Novel that he would have defeated Vader if he could have, he couldn't)
This is ridiculous- killing someone who doesn't put up a fight doesn't mean Vader can take Malak.
- Vader states in the Shadow of the Empire novel that his cyborg self > his Jedi self
And Hitler thought he was an artist. While Darth Vader is definately wiser and physically stronger than young Anakin, his force potential IS crippled, and his mobility suffers as well. He also cannot use or block force lightning, a skill which Malak uses to deadly affect.
- Him being slow was due to the technological limitations of the time. It's true he lost speed, but look at Grievous, also a Cyborg. Vader would be around his speed in the newer movies (unless the Emporer cut Vader's suit's budget LOL)
Baseless speculation. Vader is slow in the movies (The highest point of SW canon) therefore, he is slow. Saying that he isn't slow because Grievous is fast doesn't make sense. And blaming "technological limitations" in the highest point of canon is making excuses for a character who, while cool, isn't godly in combat, period.
- He can force choke people from across the Galaxy.
Across the galaxy, eh? I don't remember that. And anyways, EU canon states that jedi and sith can block Force TK. I doubt Vader is going to just choke Malak to death.
Darth Malak is no pushover as well.
- Punked two Jedi Knights easily
- Learned from Darth Revan
- Has a variety of (GAMEPLAY) Force powers and fancy Lightsaber moves, even though he only used Force Drain and Force Lightning in the cinematics.
So... yeah.
Malak's pretty good. It's hard to say just how good he is at personal combat since we have mostly game play views of him fighting, but his reputation in the Order and during the wars (And the fact that he was head honcho in a Sith organisation where the strong rule) means he must be considerably powerful.
"This is ridiculous- killing someone who doesn't put up a fight doesn't mean Vader can take Malak. "
-Obi-Wan was putting up a fight. The ANH novel specifically states that Vader > Obi-Wan. Age isn't that big a factor, considering Dooku, Yoda, Sidious etc. Mace was priming when he was 50.
"Baseless speculation. Vader is slow in the movies (The highest point of SW canon) therefore, he is slow. Saying that he isn't slow because Grievous is fast doesn't make sense. And blaming "technological limitations" in the highest point of canon is making excuses for a character who, while cool, isn't godly in combat, period."
-That's true, it is speculation, but it's not baseless. The "base" in this speculation is Greivous, and his mobility despite the fact that's he's even more Cyborg than Vader. IF the movies were made with improved FXs, I guarantee both Vader and Luke would have fought faster. Take Sidious for example. When in CG, the man's super fast. When he's being choreographed by Ian, he's slower than OT Vader. No one claimed Vader was a combat God, he'd get trounced by many people (Many older force users and some newer ones), but I still think he can beat Malak.
"Across the galaxy, eh? I don't remember that. And anyways, EU canon states that jedi and sith can block Force TK. I doubt Vader is going to just choke Malak to death."
-He force chokes two seperate Admirals from different Starshps in ESB and ROTJ. It won't be INSTA KILL, but it'd be damaging.
Registered: Feb 2005
Location: Hiding from zombies
RODV, I think.
Haven't read it yet (Waiting for it to come out in paperback), but from the sounds of it the novel's all about making Vader seem more hardass then he was in the OT. I find this vexing, because it makes Vader seem inconsistant to me, but whatever.
-Obi-Wan was putting up a fight. The ANH novel specifically states that Vader > Obi-Wan. Age isn't that big a factor, considering Dooku, Yoda, Sidious etc. Mace was priming when he was 50.
Unfortunately, the movie evidence (Remember again- highest form of canon) is inconclusive as to who is better. Vader did not penetrate Obi-Wan's guard and vice versa. Vader won only when Obi-Wan gave up. This does not constitute skill/victory/uberness on Vader's part. The point is moot.
-That's true, it is speculation, but it's not baseless. The "base" in this speculation is Greivous, and his mobility despite the fact that's he's even more Cyborg than Vader.
Grievous is built differently than Vader, and his mobility is not an option for Vader. They are not comparable any more than Yoda and Mace Windu's jogging speeds are comparable.
IF the movies were made with improved FXs, I guarantee both Vader and Luke would have fought faster.
I doubt this, and you're basing your answer on THIS version of events on a "What-if" version of OTHER events. Again, moot.
Take Sidious for example. When in CG, the man's super fast. When he's being choreographed by Ian, he's slower than OT Vader.
Not the point; SW canon policy says the movies are on top. When you start to dispute the movies, you cannot rely on ANYTHING. You're basically picking apart the foundation of all evidence and changing it to your own preference. Well, that doesn't fly. Either argue within the parameters of the SW EU universe and its levels of canon or don't argue at all. This isn't "What do you think Vader would be like if you took personal liberties with his abilities, appearance, speed and so on."
By this logic I could argue that Malak would be faster than Grievous and he could manipulate black holes by the Force alone, and IF they made a new movie or game about it, this would be the case.
See? Baseless speculation.
No one claimed Vader was a combat God, he'd get trounced by many people (Many older force users and some newer ones), but I still think he can beat Malak.
And I think he can't. While I won't ever say you can't think Vader has this battle, I will point out every time you argue incorrectly or falsely. Your points as to why Vader would win are all logically unsound and invalid as arguments. Hence, you have not proven your case at all.
-He force chokes two seperate Admirals from different Starshps in ESB and ROTJ. It won't be INSTA KILL, but it'd be damaging.
Yes, he force chokes two non-force sensitives. But the point remains (And you did not address it) that Jedi and Sith have the ability to block force telekinesis, which includes Force choke.
Registered: Feb 2005
Location: Hiding from zombies
Oh noes!!! Not teh padawan and the AgriCorps Jedi!!!111
Yeah, that's why people need to always elaborate on their supposedly valid feats. If I would have seen that in the first post, I would have tried not to laugh.
He never takes 8 qualified Jedi there. That would be like me arguing Vader took hundreds of Jedi while he walked through the Jedi Temple. I of course would be omitting the fact that he did have a legion of storm troopers and most of them were younglings.
No, the novelization states that Obi-Wan could not beat Vader. It does not state Vader could beat Obi-Wan or that he was the superior force user.
And you can point out Dooku, Yoda, Sidious, Mace, but we also have a Qui-Gon, who was "past his prime" (in accordance to the TPM novelization and the databank) in TPM at a young 60.
Grievous also doesn't have human anatomy, no force powers, and possibly has a different neurological structure and function based upon him being a different species.
Regardless, it is baseless speculation.
If they had CG, they perhaps would be faster, but the point remains that he's slower than ROTS Anakin, and ROTS Anakin never demonstrates the battle and force prowess of a Malak.
It was never explictly shown as two different starships I believe. And no, it would more likely be blocked than anything else.
You think that Darth *got my hand cut off by Luke 'Louisville Slugger' Skywalker* Vader will beat Darth Malak!?!?
Really lets think about this, Vader has not seriously fought anyone who was a true test of his power in nearly 20 years. His skills would greatly go down. Also, he lost loads of force potential on Mustafar and turned into a robot. He may be physically stronger, but much slower and much less skilled. We also know that he is very weak against force lightning (which Malak can easily use). Finally, from what we see in the OT movies, Vader has never proven himself to be a good fighter.
Vader gets WTFpwned by Malak
__________________ >>Antediluvian<< Stop the flood!
Registered: Apr 2005
Location: Jedi Academy on Yavin IV
Also, as for choking the people on different starships (which, by the way, is not a GALAXY away, but rather several miles. huge difference) he had a visual with both of his victims. For all we know, he needs to SEE them to choke them.
And the choking was non-force senstives, any sith lord worthy of the title can block that. Heck, the jedi are taught from an early age to block TK (which is force choke, the choke is just TK applied to the neck), so Malak could certainly block it
__________________ >>Antediluvian<< Stop the flood!
I know this sounds "Noobish," but honestly, one blast of Lighting from Malak and Vader's going to die very quickly.
__________________ Recently Produced and Distributed Young but High-Ranking Political Figure of Royal Ancestry within the Modern American Town Affectionately Referred To as Bel-Air.
"Unfortunately, the movie evidence (Remember again- highest form of canon) is inconclusive as to who is better. Vader did not penetrate Obi-Wan's guard and vice versa. Vader won only when Obi-Wan gave up. This does not constitute skill/victory/uberness on Vader's part. The point is moot. "
I suppose that could mean they're tied. I'll give you that.
"Grievous is built differently than Vader, and his mobility is not an option for Vader. They are not comparable any more than Yoda and Mace Windu's jogging speeds are comparable. "
Yoda and Mace's jogging speeds aren't comparable, but their Lightsaber speeds are. I never said Vader can jog faster than Grievous, I simply said he could wield a lightsaber as fast as him. Look at Yoda. In the OT, everyone thought he was less mobile than Vader, due to him being old as hell. Look at him in the PT. He uses the force to speed himself up. I know Vader won't fight as fast as PT Yoda, but the Force CAN speed him up.
"Not the point; SW canon policy says the movies are on top. When you start to dispute the movies, you cannot rely on ANYTHING."
SW canon policy also says that Lucas' word is fact. GL stated that Vader and Sidious are the strongest. You cannot deny the infallable God of the SW Universe's word.
"Yes, he force chokes two non-force sensitives. But the point remains (And you did not address it) that Jedi and Sith have the ability to block force telekinesis, which includes Force choke."
It can also block Force Lightning, which (you think) is some sort of sort of INSTAWIN for Malak. Look at Yoda. Look at how he blocks Force Lightning.
"If they had CG, they perhaps would be faster, but the point remains that he's slower than ROTS Anakin, and ROTS Anakin never demonstrates the battle and force prowess of a Malak."
And what exactly has Malak demonstrated? Deflecting a few blaster bolts from Carth? Forcing two Jedi Knights? Getting owned by Revan, despite the fact that he had several extra lives?
12) Obi-Wan Kenobi, Master - Killed - Lightsaber (Novelization specifically states that if Obi-Wan could have killed Vader, he would have, although he DID give up, he was AT LEAST equal with him) - A New Hope.
13) Olee Starstone, Padawan - Barely saved by Master Shryne - Lightsaber - Dark Lord: TRODV.
14) Burr Danid, Imp. Guard in training (the best) - Killed Lightsaber - EU, Crimson Empire.
15) Unknown number of wookiees - Lightsaber - EU, Dark Lord: TRODV.
16) Unknown Number of Jedi, Unknown Levels - Killed - Unknown. (Other EU Jedi who's ranks I and methods of death I can't remember at the moment) - EU.
"You think that Darth *got my hand cut off by Luke 'Louisville Slugger' Skywalker* Vader will beat Darth Malak!?!?"
And? Anakin, as a 22 year old Jedi knight beat Count Dooku, someone who can keep up with Yoda and beat Mace Windu. That doesn't mean Luke > Vader, nor does it mean 22-year-old Anakin > Dooku. If ROTJ proved one thing, it was tha Vader didn't really want to kill Luke, he still had some good in him. That was the point. When Luke was provoked, he was full of anger. Same thing happened with Anakin and Dooku, except Dooku wasn't good in the heart, he was just cocky.
For the record: Vader fights eight Jedi masters in Purge, and when he gets stronger, it's supposed he took on about 20 and walked away...he also did a lot of extermination of the Jedi himself
Registered: Feb 2005
Location: Hiding from zombies
I suppose that could mean they're tied. I'll give you that.
I would hope you would. You saying Vader was clearly the better is spitting in the face of the obvious.
Yoda and Mace's jogging speeds aren't comparable, but their Lightsaber speeds are. I never said Vader can jog faster than Grievous, I simply said he could wield a lightsaber as fast as him. Look at Yoda. In the OT, everyone thought he was less mobile than Vader, due to him being old as hell. Look at him in the PT. He uses the force to speed himself up. I know Vader won't fight as fast as PT Yoda, but the Force CAN speed him up.
Obviously the idea of mobility eludes you: Vader = slow. His lightsaber speed is nowhere near as fast as Grievous', and assuming the force CAN speed him up, you need to show definate proof where it has before and how it can again. Until then, this point remains baseless speculation and wishful biased thinking. Period.
SW canon policy also says that Lucas' word is fact. GL stated that Vader and Sidious are the strongest. You cannot deny the infallable God of the SW Universe's word.
So GL specifically says that Vader and Sidious are "teh strongest auf dem Welt" including EU? No, he doesn't. He says specifically "I don't deal with that world. It's not my world. I don't really know what goes on in it." Therefore, GL's word applies ONLY to the in-movie universe.
It can also block Force Lightning, which (you think) is some sort of sort of INSTAWIN for Malak. Look at Yoda. Look at how he blocks Force Lightning.
Show me exactly where Vader can block lightning. He obviously can't use it, and he didn't block it from Sidious. Prove up.
And what exactly has Malak demonstrated? Deflecting a few blaster bolts from Carth? Forcing two Jedi Knights? Getting owned by Revan, despite the fact that he had several extra lives?
Quite a bit, actually. He was head of the Sith order under Revan, picked over hundreds, perhaps thousands of other force users and lightsaber users in a time when the strongest ruled and the weak were servants or dead. He was a legendary lightsaber user in the order, lead many battles from the front in the deadly Mandalorian Wars, and killed jedi knights and masters in personal combat and with the force during the Jedi Civil War. As for Revan beating him, this shouldn't be a mark against Malak; if anything, the fight was described as "epic", and was hardly one sided. The fact that Malak knew how to drain the life force of other jedi, that he could contend with someone as powerful as Revan, etc. shows a lot of promise. I mean, Anakin at his height got owned/stalemated by Obi-Wan. Do you really think Obi-Wan can take out Malak? Pfft... lol
12) Obi-Wan Kenobi, Master - Killed - Lightsaber (Novelization specifically states that if Obi-Wan could have killed Vader, he would have, although he DID give up, he was AT LEAST equal with him) - A New Hope.
13) Olee Starstone, Padawan - Barely saved by Master Shryne - Lightsaber - Dark Lord: TRODV.
14) Burr Danid, Imp. Guard in training (the best) - Killed Lightsaber - EU, Crimson Empire.
15) Unknown number of wookiees - Lightsaber - EU, Dark Lord: TRODV.
16) Unknown Number of Jedi, Unknown Levels - Killed - Unknown. (Other EU Jedi who's ranks I and methods of death I can't remember at the moment) - EU.
Feat Wars: Return of the Fanboy.
I don't have a long, comparable list. But then again, most kills doesn't dictate wins, does it? Or else Anakin would not have been able to defeat Dooku, Sidious beating Yoda, Exar Kun pwning Vodo, etc.
And? Anakin, as a 22 year old Jedi knight beat Count Dooku, someone who can keep up with Yoda and beat Mace Windu. That doesn't mean Luke > Vader, nor does it mean 22-year-old Anakin > Dooku. If ROTJ proved one thing, it was tha Vader didn't really want to kill Luke, he still had some good in him. That was the point. When Luke was provoked, he was full of anger. Same thing happened with Anakin and Dooku, except Dooku wasn't good in the heart, he was just cocky.
Here's one thing I want to know: Do you think that ROTS Anakin can beat Mace and Yoda? Really, I want to know this... for all those people who think that Anakin truly outclassed and beat Dooku... can Anakin successfully defeat Dooku's peers? Sidious even?
Or is it possible that Dooku was going too easy on Anakin and Anakin actually made a smart move?
Anyways, Luke had NO lightsaber training to speak of; he did not learn more than a few hours with a remove on the MF, possibly a few days with Yoda who did NOT have a lightsaber, and whatever self experimentation he got between ESB and ROTJ. For those of you who think three years of playing around with a lightsaber makes you better than masters, stop drinking and go get a reality check.
And btw, being "full of anger" is a Plot Device, and not applicable to a versus thread.
Last edited by Janus Marius on Jan 29th, 2006 at 04:13 PM
Vader wield a lightsabre as fast a Grevious!? Get some glasses, 'cos that ain't true. Vader is slow, even George Lucas says that.
George Lucas has never stated that Vader and Sidious are the strongest. Stop lying, fanboy.
And when has Vader displayed powers on par with Yoda? Never, it's a seemingly unique technique. And even then, Lightning is not telekinisis, it doesn't attack the mind, nor does it need to be cast on a living target to work. Vader's suit will be frazzled if Malak attacks him with lightning, end of story.
He's demonstrated powers beyond Vader's dreams. And getting owned by Revan? Please, the fight is described as "epic" and "close". And even then, you are relying on game mechanics which are not canon. And Revan was a complete badass. It stands more in Malak's favour that he was able to stand up to Revan, Vader would get WTFpwned by Revan.
Substantiate. Why does this make him better than Malak who fought on the frontlines of arguably one of the most bloodiest wars in the history of the Star Wars universe?
True, Vader did basically give in to Luke and let him win. And Dooku was either being arrogant, stupid or nonsensical. If he wanted Anakin and Obi-Wan dead, then they wouldn't have left The Invisible Hand alive.
Actually, Vader is frequently portrayed as....very fast. And Anakin did defeat Dooku fair and square, that entire scene was meant to show how far he'd come.
As for Luke, it seems length of training doesn't dictate skill....he kicks a fair bit of ass in SOTE
Vader portrayed as fast? Does this ever show in the movies? No he fights a lot slower then he does in the PT. He's not a fast fighter, he doesn't run around he just stands and attacks that whats we see in the movies and therefor thats what he does.
Anakin did beat Dooku fair and square, but Dooku did not try to kill Anakin or else Anakin would have been dead. If Dooku would have tried his very best Anakin would be dead.
Not like it matters, Vader does not stand a chance against the lightsaber prodigy that is Darth Malak.
When does he ever have a reason to be fast in the movies?
Dooku may've not been fighting to kill, but he was fighting seriously, he realized he'd die if he didn't...and he was fully given license to finish Anakin by Palpatine.
Jan 28th, 2006 06:06 PM
