This doesn't seem to have ever been done. Kinda surprising. Anyway, the fight takes place in the arena at Geonosis, both characters are at their peaks, anything goes.
I'd say Vos takes it. Kit lost to TCD Asajj. I'd put Quinlan on par with Obsession Asajj, who is slightly stronger than she was in TCD. Also, I think Quinlan would have lasted longer against Sidious than Kit did, though that fight was pretty much bullshit anyways, so, but still, I go with Quin.
However, all his great victories were achieved through luck; Volfe Karkko was toying with him, and then Vos got one lucky hit on him and won - the exact same thing happens with Sora Bulq, I can elaborate on this if you disagree.
Now there's also the fact that Agen Kolar was totally outclassing him in saber combat, Tor Skoll was able to defeat him in combat, and he almost lost to K'Kruhk in combat, none of these were really anything special, again, I can elaborate if you disagree with any of this.
Excuse me. Listen up, Vos was in a terrible mindset against Karkko. His own apprentice, Aayla, was turned to the Dark and serving his nemesis. Quinlan's condition was similar to Anakin's in ROTS. He just wasn't thinking right, and his anger and sadness wasn't allowing him to fight properly. That's why he lashes out with a pathetic Lightning attack. But see how if Vos was calmed, he can take out Karkka. Same thing. Imagine if it was Quinlan vs. Volfe again. However, Volfe doesn't have Aayla and Quinlan is 100% condition. Then again, Quinlan can actually pwn Karkko. Remember with one strike a Jedi calmed Quinlan took out Volfe. Yep, that shows you how powerful Quinlan is as a Jedi.
And Tol Skorr was killed by Vos. You can't say Skorr > Vos, because when it really counts (Battle of Saleucami), Quinlan finished Skorr off.
Again, Quinlan was not trying to run away from Agen. He wasn't trying to hurt him. If that was the case, he would be fighting. No, Kolar corners him and Vos tries to repel him away and escape, which he does. And Agen had the element of surprise when he caught Quinlan off guard. Nevertheless, Quinlan was doing his 100% against Kolar. In addition, taking all of Quin's powers together, I could definately see him lasting longer than Kolar against Sidious. Kolar dies in a like and just stood there while Sidious nailed him apart.
And he wasn't losing to K'kruhk. K'kruhk tackled him and Quinlan was like "get out of the way k'kruhk" signifying that he was running away. Quinlan was always loyal to the Republic and the Jedi Order, thats why he doesn't kill any of his brothers.
And please, Quinlan could have killed Sora. Quinlan as a Jedi can definately do so. Quinlan was first fighting as a Dark Side user. Sora's Vapaad is powerful against the Dark. And Quinlan was a terrible mindset. His good and bad self was in a total turmoil. He couldn't even concentrate during the duel, that's why he gets knocked down. But when he is finally calmed by the Light, he manages with a very quick masterful stroke cut Bulq apart.
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- Force Push
- Force Pull
- Force Lightning
- Force Cloak (hides himself from other Force users.)
and several other abilities.
Mace Windu also said to him something like "Your powers are strong, brother. To hide yourself from us makes you quite powerful." Quinlan can be definately called an exceptional Jedi.
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I know this, however you also have to consider that Volfo was in a weak state at this point, having been in stasis for hundreds of years, completely out of practise and not having tasted the 'soup' of a jedi for said number of years. Yet he completely tooled with Quinlan.
Here's where I disagree. Quinlan was in such an uncontrolled fury (largely based upon fear), fighting far worse than he usually would, and because of that Volfe was able to completely toy with him, and thus started to grow complacent. And so, when the jedi were able to calm his mind, his sudden change in skill caught Volfe off guard, and thus he was able to take him out in a single expert move.
Now you seem to think that he was able to pull off the win due to the fact that controlled Quinlan Vos >>>> the current Volfe Karkko.
I think it's far more logical that his victory was due to these 2 factors:
1. The will of the force, in other words luck.
2. His sudden change in skill, which caught Volfe off guard due to his complacency.
Now hold up, you seem to be implying that a lightsided controlled Quinlan Vos would be able to just enter a fight with the likes of Volfe Karkko and Sora Bulq and instantly win with one move. That's ridiculous.
I didn't say that, just that Vos isn't as great as you seem to think. Skorr wasn't too far from him, and he had beaten him in the past, granted Vos was incredibly fatigued at this point.
If anyone had an unfair advantage over the other, it was Quinlan. They were both trying to defeat the other without killing him, however Agen was actually attempting to capture him whereas Quinlan was only trying to escape. It's far easier to escape a fight rather than capture your opponent, so no, it was Quinlan who had the advantage, not Agen. It just turned out that Kolar was able to outclass Quinlan; he was able to disarm him at one point, able to pull off melee attacks successfully, lightly cut Quilan's shoulder...
Proof that Quinlan would be able to do better?
No, at this point Quinlan was very much dark, and he was definitely aiming to kill K'Kruhk, based upon the fact that he force pushed him out the window, clearly with the intention of killing him. Neither were holding back, that much is clear.
Proof for this? The fact that Sora is a darksider means that he doesn't quite mentally utilise it in the same way as Mace Windu, I'm pretty sure that with Sora Bulq, there's nothing more to Vaapad than strokes and sequences like any other form.
Refer to the explanation I gave with Volfe Karkko earlier.
Last edited by The Sith'ari on Nov 25th, 2006 at 10:45 PM
Wow! He can force push and force pull? Can I say, uber?
Yes, he was able to instinctively learn this when he turned to the darkside. This is somewhat impressive, but remember, the lightning was so weak that it had no effect on Volfe Karkko, and Karkko even calls him a novice with it.
This too is impressive, both Tholme and Quinlan have a talent for hiding their presence from others.
Really, I wasn't saying that Vos wasn't strong or anything, just wanted to see your argument.
OMG, it was not a lucky hit. Quinlan's skill granted him that. If that's the case, I can say that Anakin got a lucky hit on Dooku when he disarmed him.
Random assumption on your behalf. Please, Sora trained under Mace. I would expect he would know what Mace taught him. Vapaad is also a mindset, not just strokes and sequences as you put him.
Is that why he tells K'Kruhk to back off? If he was trying to kill him, he wouldn't have said that. And pushing somebody out of a window isn't a deadly attack. Quinlan was trying to escape and get K'Kruhk out of the ay at the same time. K'Kruhk was trying to get Quinlan, but Vos was getting away.
Considering the fact that he took on powerful opponents and defeated him, I would say he lasts longer than Kolar, who just stood there.
What the hell? Quinlan was talking with his gangsters when Kolar busts in with his saber and is like "Put your hands up brother." Quinlan would be surprised the Jedi are after him. He runs and then finds Kolar cornering him again. Reluctanty, he pulls out a saber and then gets disarmed by Kolar. Kolar had advantage w/element of surprsie and Vos was not trying to kill Agen and he was running away.
Maybe so, but Karkko was trying to eliminate him and Volfe failed. And again, does type in crap saying it was luck, it was skill. Then anything a Jedi might do is luck. Luck is what Kenobi did to Maul. Karkko say Quinlan coming with an expression of calmness. He should have expected something. Yes, he might have been surprised, but to say "oh he got lucky" is simply bullshit.
Vos fought some droids on a space station who were trying to kill him. Kenobi saves him and Quinlan is tired. Then Asajj and Skorr come in. Quinlan was still a double-agent, he doesn't want to blow his cover yet and he was tired. Thats why Skorr managed to knock him back. But Vos skewered his ass on Saleucami. And did I say Vos is so great? I am listing his feats here, which have reasons behind them. If you can't deny Quinlan is more powerful than you think, that's your problem my friend.
You cannot ignore them. Why a Push is how Dooku eliminated Kenobi during the duel in the Invisible Hand. And more to that, Vos knows all the basic abilities of most Jedi, so its more than just Push and Pull.
Well yeah, its his first time, I would expect that he would suck with it. But still, he manages to do with just plain anger. Even Maul doesn't know how to do Lightning.
That ability makes them impressive. And yes, you say my arguments. Care to reply?
And just a question, do you think Quinlan is better than Fisto?
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1. That wouldn't exactly be so far out there.
2. Point 1 doesn't even matter anyway, because they are completely different cases. Sora Bulq and Volfe Karkko completely toyed with Quinlan, wasn't quite the same with Dooku and Anakin.
Here's a tip, patronise me when you are actually beating me in a debate, now when you are losing.
Did you ignore my post? Being in control of the darkside is essential in mastering the mental aspects of Vaapad, Sora wasn't in control of the darkside, the darkside was in control of Sora.
Great drop misconstruing my point!
I was speaking only for Sora, my reasoning is posted above.
Lying now are we? He doesn't say it once.
And even if he did, that wouldn't necessarily mean that he wasn't going full out against him. Dooku tells Obi-Wan to 'back down' in AOTC, does that mean that he was holding back against him?
So force pushing someone through a window off of a skyscraper isn't a deadly attack? Right...
Powerful opponents who don't quite compare to Sidious.
The element of surprise really only counts as a real advantage if your opponent is caught offgaurd. This didn't happen, there was plenty of time for Quinlan to register the fact that Agen was going to try and capture him. I mean it's not like Agen caught him offguard or anything.
Luck is generally a valid explanation given when an opponent who dominates the entire fight loses, it's not my fault you can't accept that.
No, it was Dooku's superior force mastery that enabled Dooku to do that, not the 'force push' attack. And yes, both Quinlan and Kit know force push, it doesn't give Quinlan an edge, so it shall be ignored.
Well while those are somewhat impressive, they don't quite compare to some of Kit's force related feats. I mean his 'force water orbs' were capable of blasting through giant gunships, that's some pretty impressive raw power. His reflexes were also described as 'faster than common sense'.
Agen Kolar imo is stronger than Kit. He did worse against Palpatine cause Palpatine killed him first, before he had time to react, while by the time Palpatine reached Kit, Kit and Mace were both fully prepared.
That was when Quinlan was exhausted and trying NOT to kill Skorr. I once thought as you did, but later when Vos was at full strength and trying to kill Skorr he pwnd him (Clone Wars Volume 8 - The Last Siege, The Final Truth).
You are correct. However, at the beginning of the fight Vos Force pushed K'Kruhk aside right away, and may have been able to kill him but he first had to kill Senator Viento. And Vos did win in the end. Also, I would say this dampers Vos's power but brings Karkko up. However, I do agree with you about Bulq and Karkko.
You know this is false. Karkko was pwning Vos badly. He even disappeared a appeared somewhere else. Had Karkko not wanted to taste his soup he could ahve just kept zapping him and zapped him to death.
Not true. Vos would have killed Kolar, but Kolar, on the other hand, wanted Vos alive, if possible, to bring to the Council.
That was the most bullshit battle ever. If you take EU into account Kolar > Vos, and likely msot other Jedi, too.
Vos was losing at the time that K'Kruhk tackled him. However, in the long run Vos proved superios to K'Kruhk, who's quite a good Jedi himself.
He almost kills K'Kruhk was was willing to and tried to kill his own master.
Because Bulq obviously isn't expecting Vos to make a come-back, just as Maul wasn't expecting Kenobi to make a come-back.
I disagree here. Vos pwnd Skorr when he was trying, the otehr time he was trying not to win and thus he lost. Skorr's not that great, really.
Except Dooku wasn't completely pwning Anakin first, just beating him. Karkko was pwning Vois badly, while toying with him.
I don't think eitehr K'Kruhk or Vos were trying to kill one another, but each was willing to kill the other if he had to.
Apparently Sidious used a combination of Force Rage and speed to kill Kolar so quickly. Combined that with the fact that the duel was bullshit and you have Vos doing no better.
Wrong. At first Vos was surprised, but later he had all the advantages. He was on fimilair and friendly turf. Kolar was on unfamilair and unfriendly turf.
That was Force Grip.
An assumption which likely isn't true. If Quinlan and Mighella (A Darksister) can use lightning I doubt a Sith Lord who has been trained in the Dark Side his entire life couldn't use it.
I was going to ask the same thing.
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Last edited by darthsith19 on Nov 25th, 2006 at 11:45 PM
2. It was an example of your excuse saying it was luck, where it was obviousy NOT!
That statement nearly made me cry from laughter!!! LMAO!
Yet you're able to use Vapaad, except the Dark Side is with you. And it still grants him an advantage over Vos.
If you are smart, you would post it and not cause a scenario of confusion, o genius.
I just checked. He's like "don't preach to me K'Kruhk. You have no idea who I become." and then he's like "I must escape" obviously indicating he has no intention of fighting the Whipid. And Dooku actually fights Kenobi, not like Vos who doesn't want to hurt the Jedi and who runs away.
He was in desperation to escape. And K'Kruhk was in the way. Besides, Obi-Wan jumps through a window in AOTC, trying to hang on to the assasin droid. It's not deadly, and K'Kruhk didn't even seem hurt by that.
Well, K'Kruhk just stands in Vos's way. But Vos doesn't kill, he just pushes him away. And Vos actually wants the Sith dead, indicating his loyalty to the Republic.
Twice Vos got caught off guard. The second time he was running forward when Kolar just jumps in front of him with a lightsaber ignited. Quinlan was again trying to get away. He even tells Agen that he's loyal to the Jedi. That's why he doesn't even go all out on Kolar.
Yeah, but he's not going to just stand there. You know how long Fisto lasted. Vos would probably last around this long, perhaps a bit longer.
Wow, you are just ignoring everything I said, didn't you? How pathetic. There's a reason for things, my friends. Perhaps you should contemplate that before you give stupid rebuttals. A regular calmed Quinlan at full strength has the power to take on Sora and Volfe, as he has been shown to do when he is in this condition.
Please see the other thread of Grievous vs. Darth Vader where Darthsith and I are arguing over the exaggeratio of the CW series. Kit is totally exaggerated. Seriously he fends off several battleships and then destorys several. While I can concede that he is very strong, I just don't see him beating Vos.
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But he tries to kill him. he wnats the Sith dead, yes, but he's still turned over to the Dark Side. He's loyal to the Republic as much as he can be, but he doesn't really even have that much control over his actions. The Dark Side somewhat controls him.
Yes, and Vos was exhausted from running while Kolar easily found a shortcut through Vos's own terrain and was strong enough to gain the advantage of surprise.
He doesn't want to kill Kolar, but if need be he would kill Kolar just as he wtried to kill K'Kruhk. But Agen didn't want to kill Quinlan. And btw the Force Claok ability of his that you mentioned earlier wasn't good enough to hide hismelf from Agen after he'd jumped out of the speeder.
Again, Agen had no time to react - Kit did. The novel states that Agen > Kit EU shows this as well.
2. Obvious to everyone apart from you apparently. At least I gave a reason as to why it was luck, haven't quite got the same from you.
Your analogy was false anyway, I don't see why I should even bother replying to a fallacy.
Well if that's what does it for you...
If that's the best reply you can give, I'm pretty sure you're not understanding my point very well. OH well.
Ah, so you're gonna act like a sarcastic punk now huh?
I'm not going to repeat what I already posted, it's really not that hard to find, it seems to me like you're just looking for excuses not to reply.
He also had no intention of holding back in their fight, that much is clear. At this point, he had more of a 'get in my way and you die' attitude.
I'm seriously not sure if you're using strawman arguments on purpose, or not, because some of your replies really are pretty far off from any point I was trying to make. I mean, this reply is ridiculous. Your one piece of evidence for Vos holding back was the 'back off' he gave to K'Kruhk. I then used the Dooku-Kenobi example to show how your logic doesn't quite work out. However you continue to just ignore that and stick with your stance, which has no backing behind it, might I add. That kind of bs isn't acceptable in debates. You can't just parrot the same unsupported assertion again and again while ignoring your opponent's points which moot your assertion.
Obi-Wan times his jump with the force so that he was able to grab onto the remote assassin droid, thereby not falling to his death, completely different scenario. Quinlan actually pushes K'Kruhk out with knowledge of the fact that it was more probable that he would fall to his death, fortunately that didn't happen and he was able to maintain his composure in midair and land on a transport.
Agen didn't capitalise on his element of surprise, so moot point. And again, Agen was holding back as much as Quinlan was, if not moreso.
The thing is, you're one of those people who think that Agen and Saesee dieing like that is a strike against them. It's not. They were some of the best warriors in the order, we've seen them kick ass in the EU, the only explanation for them not reacting is that Sidious pulled something off with the force - that is the only explanation.
Point out one relevant thing I've ignored. I've quoted and directly responded to every single one of your points that actually mean something, you on the other hand have committed strawman arguments more than you have directly responded to my points.
Again, you seem to think that a regular calmed Quinlan has the ability to take the likes of Sora Bulq and Volfe Karkko in one move. Bullshit! I've already reasoning in contrary of this, and it's far more logical than your's.
Hold up. That is the only material for judging Kit's raw force power there is, so how can you call it an exaggeration? I'm sorry, but if that's the best excuse you can come up with, I don't see why I'm even replying. The fact is, the cartoon is perfectly canon, there are no contradictions, so it goes. Unlucky.
He's between the Dark and Light Side. And he was trying to escape but K'Kruhk stood in the way of the window. Perhaps Quinlan wanted to kill him, but the comic clearly shows Vos trying to get out, not trying to kill K'Kruhk.
While this is impressive by Kolar, Vos was somewhat caught off guard. He didn't expect Agen to corner him.
Perhaps Quinlan didn't use Force Cloak? W/e, we can agree though that both opponents didn't go all out, right?
Exact quote please?
Read my reasons Darth:
I'll edit this. I'm not saying Quinlan kills Karkko in one attack. But see how Quinlan, when not plagued by fear, is able to dodge Volfe. See:
(please log in to view the image)
As you can see Karkko realizes that Vos isn't fighting as weak as before. That now he is calm and strengthened....
(please log in to view the image)
Karkko was going for the kill here. He wasn't kididng around. See how close his blade was to Vos's head. But Quinlan's Jedi power defeated Volfe. A fight between Jedi Quinlan 100% condition vs. Darkness Karkko results in Vos as the winner.
Maybe...
I wholehartedly disagree, but I'm not going to argue this. It's your opinion.
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Nov 25th, 2006 06:18 PM
That statement nearly made me cry from laughter!!! LMAO!
