A jungle-based Kar Vastor is on par with Yoda, correct? And Depa is -- by Mace's own words -- on par with himself in bladework. Sidious bites ze big one.
Kar isn't on par with Yoda, he is almost as strong. As for Depa being ahead of Mace, she isn't, Mace was being humble, just like when he says Kenobi is better with a blade than he is (in the ROTS script).
However (what I was going to originally say):
Kar alone would give Sidious a good fight, not win, but it would be close. Add in Depa and Sidious is going down for sure.
No, he was described as having raw power on the level of Yoda.
Mace says that Depa's bladework had surpassed his own Vaapad. That statement, while somewhat open to interpretation, means that Depa's ability as a duelist at least compares to Mace's.
@Escape: Only the jungles of Haruun Kal empower Kar beyond normal levels, much like Korriban or Malachor do for Darth Sion. But even without the jungle's power flowing through him, he was described as being immensely powerful.
Last edited by Eminence on Aug 22nd, 2007 at 12:00 AM
Okay. But like I said, Sidious will die anyway, since Depa compares to Mace and so does Vastar. Which makes me wonder why this thread was made since one side has no hope for success...
I believe that Mace said that Kar's raw power rivaled that of Yoda. His level of finesse and technique, as well as knowledge and wisdom don't really compare to what Yoda has though. I don't think he'd be much against Sidious on his own.
Depa does have Vapaad though. However, I'm not convinced that it will have the same effect for her that it had for Mace. It did what it did for Mace because he had no fear of the Darkside and was able to conquer it. Depa not able to do so. She was afraid of the Darkside and was conquered by it. I also believe that Mace was being very generous in his description of Depa, which is understandable as she was his apprentice. I read Shatterpoint years ago, but I believe that Mace beat her even after she had cheapshotted him and after a severe beating at Kar's hands, and many days in the jungle. I don't think she'd stand much chance against Mace on even ground.
Basically, I think it'd be close. If Sidious loses at all he's taking someone with him.
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I'm confused about the (seemingly) contradictory assessment of Kar Vastor and Depa's powers. For example, why would Mace make the statement that Depa's bladework is superior to his own? Was he being modest, or is there merit to it? And what about Mace's assessment that Vastor was more powerful than he was? I seem to recall a fleeting statement that this book concerns Mace's secret insecurities. I've misplaced my own copy of the book.
I strongly believe that Mace was simply being modest in his assessment of Depa's power. It's actually quite obvious. He had mastered Vapaad, she had not. He defeated her while he was near death anyway. Vastor may have had more raw power, but he lacked the knowledge, wisdom, finesse, technique, experince, ect. that Mace had.
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I wanted what people here thought of Depa an Kar nowadays, because last I was here the two werent given their due credit. Basically, I expected to have the majority of people trying to argue in Sidious' favor. I'm glad to see that's not the case.
And in regards to Kar and Mace; in their final confrontation, the Jedi muses about how Kar is "younger, stronger, faster, and immensely more powerful [than Mace]." I believe that's the exact quote, but I'd have to check back with you on that, since I haven't so much as seen a copy of the book in year.
Registered: Feb 2005
Location: Hiding from zombies
I'm halfway through rereading Shatterpoint again. It has to be one of the longest Clone Wars-era novels, for sure. Anyways, Kar Vastor's homecourt advantage is being in the jungle, where he's noted as being near-difficult to sense and has an apparent increase in speed, strength, etc. He feeds off of the darkness in the jungle.
However, outside of that environment, his lack of discipline and self-control make him dangerously unstable. He relies on instinct and has a dog-like mentality. He's also prone to his own vanity and insecurities, such as remaining respected and feared. Sidious is a surprisingly cagey opponent who has the benefit of more training and Force-refinement, not to mention Sith Lightning which is likely to fry Vastor and melt his vibroshields with enough concentrated effort.
Depa could balance out Vastor's weakness, however, with her own swordplay. Mace does love her and make out like she's a sabergod- and some of that may have some founding- but in the end he is the only living master of the lightsaber form itself; this means he is likely to be the only one who can counter Sidious' darkness and let it back out without hurting himself.
Actually, now that I think about it, Mace does mention Kar as being "not evil" in a sense as he just is, and mentions that Kar uses the darkness in the jungle without becoming a truly dark person himself. Much of Mace's views on Kar's methods seem to mirror Vaapad.
Janus, since you're reading the book, is it ever said whether Kar is affected by any jungle? Because I was under the impression that it was only in Haruun Kal that the landscape furthered empowered him.
Registered: Feb 2005
Location: Hiding from zombies
Mace notes that Haruun Kal is a darkness in itself, and it affects Depa and himself along with Kar. Only, Kar thrives from it and gives himself to it fully; the others resist because of their Jedi training. My guess is, it's just Haruun Kal.
Aug 21st, 2007 10:27 PM
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