I'd actually like to give Kas'im the all out as well. Granted, he isn't top tier, but the ranks can't be the 'end-all' of vs. matches. His technical proficiency surpasses Mace's, and Mace does not generally use the Force offensively.
Kas'im knew Juyo, didn't he? Vapaad would be unfamiliar, but not totally unknown. Also, I'd balk at calling Mace > Kas'im in sabers. Mace didn't master every form. He mastered many, but not all. In pure technical ability, he is < Kas'im.
Also, the loop effect would be less drastic because Kas'im relies of superior skill, rather than power to score his wins. Mace would get less 'traction' from the boost against dark siders.
i'm really not sure mace got a boost against darksiders. The darkness referred too came from within himself. (read shatterpoint)
It was Mace's own dance with the dark side everytime he entered combat that gave Vapaad its advantage.
Here: I pick Mace in all 3. Remember, this Kas'im, though the greatest duelist of the BOD, was ultimately defeated by a POD bane, who is nowhere near his ROT self. Yes, kas'im obviously school bane with sabers, BUT Bane hasn't had very many exploits with lightsabers to this point, and at the same time, being the top of the BOD really means NOTHING in comparison to other eras.
Mace windu, whose main combat abilities are based on his exceptional saber skills could be considered one of the top two lightsaber duelists of the ROTS era, and THAT IMO would put him ahead of a top duelist from era of POD. (remember, just because Ka'sim was the best sith, we never saw him duel against a jedi of that era, perhaps the jedi were, pound for pound, better duelist than the sith. We never see sith in combat with jedi at all for that matter. Only later do we see the top of the Jedi order battle bane)
Ka'sim's force defense wasn't enough to save him from a force shove by bane, so mace would hold a clear advantage there.
It seems like you say this a lot. I don't know if you've not read the RotS passage carefully enough, or if you want Vapaad to be stronger than it is, but here's the applicable quote:
From this, you must make your own interpretations. Here's mine.
Mace's style is a channel for darkness. It can be fueled by his opponent or by his 'inner darkness'. When it comes from an external source, (e.g. Sidious) it equalizes the disparity between the combatants' Force usage. If Sidious uses Force enhanced Speed, Mace indirectly uses it as well. It can be used against them. The lightning was sent back along the connection- just like the speed.
When faced with an opponent (that needs to be killed) Mace can use his own darkness (described in Shatterpoint) to fuel the loop. This is just how Vapaad works. It can be reasonably assumed (I think) that to use the saber style does not require the use of the metaphysical aspect, although you can't use the Force aspect without the saber style. Did that make sense? You can Saber without the Force, but you can't Force without the Saber.
I see two problems here:
1. That Kas'im's loss to Bane detracts from his relative skill
-and-
2. That Kas'im's status as 'best of the era' means nothing.
1. Kas'im's loss, if I remember correctly, was due to Bane's superior Force aptitude. It is noted in RoT that focusing on Saber skills exclusively leaves one open to other avenues of attack. This was the downfall of Sarro. The same thing happened with Kas'im. He was unable to defend against Bane's massive TK Force Push. Bane has some of the most destructive TK in the saga, so I wouldn't call that embarrassing.
2. The Ruusan era Sith and Jedi were not slouches in fighting ability. Their skills were honed by years of conflict. While 'best of his time' is not enough to place him anywhere near the top tiers, Kas'im beat Raksta Lsu for the title, an impressive feat. Also, General Hoth comes to mind as an impressive specimen. The title doesn't mean nothing.
It's true that PT era > Ruusan era. Its also true that in general, duelists were > during the PT. However, your proof is not valid.
By the rules of logic that I know so far, (9th grade geometry, and its been a while, so give me a break)
Mace > PT era > Ruusan Era.
PT era ? Kas'im. I know of no method with which to compare the two. There is no direct link. We can't place Kas'im on this scale with the given info.
This is unlikely. The Jedi outnumbered the Sith, and yet were unable to defeat them.
I'm not entirely sure what your point is. Please explain.
Mace is not in the habit of force raping other Force sensitive enemies. Yoda taught that the force 'is not a weapon'. I'd be careful about claiming that Mace would bust out the Force Crush/Push when he probably does not know about the destruction of Kas'im by Bane's Push. He wouldn't know to do it, and it would be out of character.
Obviously, I disagree.
I'd rather call it
Kas'im
1. 8/10
3. 6/10
Mace
2. 8/10
read pg. 329 from ROTS, that is the quote i've been focusing on. However, your intepretation of the quote from 330 is perfectly valid. I was going to say i didn't think that it really gave mace a power boost really though... I mean, it doesn't say that reflecting the power back at its source was making him anymore powerful than he was before.
but i found something more interesting. The long-standing debate we have about whether sidious was faking. Just to add to it; on pg. 331, Sidious feared mace. had become a "pulsar of fear" To me, that's very interesting. If he was faking, he wouldnt' genuinely fear windu would he?
from 331? i did. And i know Anakin was standing in the doorway at that time, so maybe he was pretending to be scared... but i found the quote interesting.
While I'm not sure who would win, I wouldn't disregard Kas'im so easily.
Kas'im had trained his entire life for this moment. After years of study, he'd mastered all seven forms of the lightsaber. Then he'd honed his skill for decades, perfecting every move and sequence until he had become the perfect weapon and the greatest living swordsman in the galaxy. – Darth Bane: POD
Yes, yes I know Bane is not an omniscient narrator, but I would think he just might have some idea of what he's talking about.
pg 329 and all of Shatterpoint support 'inner darkness', but the rest of the fight shows the loop. I think it is both.
on Pg. 331 Anakin walks in, then it says 'the shadow had become a pulsar of fear'
Later palpatine yells: 'Do you think the fear you feel is mine?'
I take this to mean that Windu felt Anakin's fear, and that Palpatine used it to his advantage. He gueses right, and Anakin sides with the Sith. It was Anakin's fear for Padme.
i'm not disregarding Ka'sim i don't believe. He's my favorite character from both Bane novels, which is a stretch for me, because i usually hate sith. I just don't know why, if he was quite so awesome, why wasn't HE leading the sith? Was Ka'sim > Kaan? Because i believe Mace was. Now if Ka'sim was better than Kaan, then i change my vote, and put it at a stalemate. But Kaan strikes me as pathetic, and i dont think mace would lose to pathetic.
Kaan had charisma which well Ka'sim had none of. I think that might have something to do with it. Plus again, Kaan was more of a "first among equals" figure.
I'm so happy. Now we must wait for LS to come bash on the Ruusan era Sith, if only to prolong the discussion. I now pronounce LS to be Devil's Advocate! (unless he wants to argue his own opinion- that would work too...)
Tiny detail: Kas'im was around before Kaan took over and given the fate of Na'Daz, adhered to the 'Strongest rules' thing. The three most powerful Sith of the brotherhood were Kaan, Qordis and Kopecz and while I don't doubt Kas'im was a better man with a saber than them, he'd never have submitted when the Sith fell into utter chaos and civil war if he could take anyone and their mother.
Oct 21st, 2008 10:57 PM
