eh, Qui-Gon. YOu talked me into Kas'im > Mace in the middle of the night the other day. I don't really know what i was thinking. I want to take that one back, because IMO, it gives Bane WAY too much credit. My biggest anti-bane argument has been Kas'im can't be proven too be at the top....
In fact. NOw that i'm writing this: i DO take it back. mace beat the most powerful sith lord of all time. In one-on-one even combat... Kasi'm was MAYBE according to BANE the greatest duelist in that era, but obviously not so, because Bane was stronger than he. And Sidious > Bane. And mace beat sidious. So bull-crap. what was i thinking? I'm going back to post this here...
but in the meantime... using that logic
Sarro is very physically fit, and Qui-Gon was unable to contend with Darth Maul in the short battle on Tatooine, during which he was only using one saber. I'd give this to Sarro, if only because Qui-Gon has been proven unable to contend with the physical demands of a double bladed practitioner.
As for your point about Kas'im and Mace etc. That's very nice, but we are talking about two very different combatants- ABC won't work here.
but also talking about 2 different time periods, in which, by ALL canon sources, the PT time period is the strongest in history for Jedi and Sith.
Sarro wasn't even a master. Qui-Gonn could have sat on the council if better behaved. Sarro is killed by zannah for being stupid. (looking away from his fight to look at another one) Qui Gonn is killed by maul, one of the deadliest sith apprentices in history. We have no such quotes defining Zannah's place in history. In fact, we still have no evidence (though we might get some ) that she even held the title of DLOTS.
For my main argument here, (both threads) larger than the ABC (though it does work very darn well in the mace case, whether you will accept it or not)
is that PT > ROT Era. Thats canon. Now we have top combatants from each era meeting, so it stands to reason that the PT characters would come out on top. Especially in the case of Windu Kas'im.
Yes, but that does not mean that every single PT character is better than the ancients- I took it to mean that the average Jedi is better, and that the Truly Exceptional (the top tiers) were from this time period. That does not preclude exceptional combatants from the past.
Zannah was gifted at sorcerry. There is absolutely no argument to be made that she beat him with sabers. Qui-Gon does not tend to use Sith Alchemy, so I don't think that his defeat at Zannah's hands will be a factor here. Also, isn't she DLOTS because later Darth Tyrranus would give her saber to Grievous?
I'm not sure why it would be applicable 'especially in the case of Windu/Kas'im'. Kas'im isn't just a weaker version of Sidious, so it isn't a direct comparison, nor is it a comparison between a constant attribute (like physical strength or speed). ABC works only when Comparing apples and apples. Kas'im is like an orange.
Ok, lets look at it like math. (I did this once already, I'm not doing it a third time)
Bane > Ruusan era
Mace/Sidious > PT era
PT > Ruusan era
So:
Mace/Sidious > PT > Ruusan era
Bane is the odd one out- there can be no comparrison between Bane and Mace/Sidious using the quotes that you've given (mathematically- using rudimentary geometry logic)
Here's a different take:
The top combatants of the PT era include Obi-Wan. Obi Wan is no where near Bane's level. He is not catapulted up to his level just because the PT Jedi Order is > Ruusan Jedi Order. This is why I take it to mean general strength.
Registered: Aug 2008
Location: Drinking gasoline. Pissing napalm.
Qui-Gon takes all three categories comfortably. The only reason Sarro was any threat to even Zannah in sabers was because he was amped by BM and wasn't growing tired - which was what Zannah's style was designed for.
but you forgot a simple fact in your logic. Sidious > Bane So if sidious is equiv. To Mace (according to your theorom, then the top of your tier would have to include these:
Sidious/Mace>Bane>Kasi'm
also: Bane>Kas'im>Russun Era (your quote)
so it would look something like this
Sidious/Mace>
Bane>Kas'im>Ruusan Period
PT
or
Sidious/Mace>
Bane>Kas'im>Ruusan Period
PT
or
Sidious/Mace>
Bane>Kas'im>PT>Ruusan Period.
In each of these, Mace still kills Kas'im with a degree to spare. Where exactly the PT ends up is insignificant.
Registered: Aug 2008
Location: Drinking gasoline. Pissing napalm.
I think it's downright stupid that the PT era should be called the most powerful era in Jedi history. Most Jedi were using Form VI, Niman, for God's sakes. And hundreds of them were killed by an effing Jedi-wannabe cyborg who doesn't using the Force. Prior to that, they were being killed with bare hands by Jango Fett, a human bounty hunter.
I thought the pt jedi were called the "prime" of the jedi in regards to lightsaber combat. Oh and Enyalus you can't forget that Jango Fett is a mandalorian.
Registered: Aug 2008
Location: Drinking gasoline. Pissing napalm.
Most of them learned Niman, and only Niman. That's an order of 10,000 strong basically running around knowing 'The Diplomat's Form'...come on. Logically, they can't be the prime of the Jedi in regard to lightsaber combat.
And Jango Fett is human. He was adopted by Mandalorians, but he's human.
Any form, mastered to a sufficient level is better than any other form by a greatly outclassed fighter En, that should be obvious. The form they used really doesn't even enter the discussion on how proficient they were.
since when did they not? i don't think there were a bunch of noobs running around. I assumed every jedi, and sith too for that matter pretty much mastered their form...
I would assume before they were knighted, and definitly before they were made masters.
Mastering a lightsaber form would be pretty much part of the learning process.
Most Jedi probably aren't as combat oriented as Mace Windu, Anakin, Dooku, Obi-wan etc. Those are the people that stand out above the rest. The average Jedi is probably going to spend some time training yes, otherwise he's probably going to be on missions, brokering diplomacy and maybe dealing with criminals. Either that or he will be studying Taoism Jedi dogma.
i still believe mastering the Jedi's weapon (which was an extension of themselves) was a required bit of their jedi training (other than Johun... but then again, he sucked so bad his lightsaber trainer probably passed him out of pity)
Oct 24th, 2008 03:48 AM
