I realize Vader is much stronger than Anakin in the Force. After much research I realize Vader is no push over. And haven't you already used that saying before? Count Dooku fanboy.
I think it's more the point you've said the same thing to him twice as to why he said that.
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He gots you noobs cryin' out fo' mom
Leave the scene lookin' like Vietnam
Might as well call him "Matt Atom Bomb"
Like his name suggests, he's quite atomic
And this fool - he likes DC Comics
Two energy swords make up his symbol
And trust me, dawg, this homie's nimble
Vader also has insane physical strength. Way more than he did as Anakin. Also, his mastery of lightsaber styles has probably improved by leaps and bounds. Without the Force, this fight becomes even more lopsided in Vader's favor as Anakin needs to draw on it more to enhance his stamina and strength than Vader would with his suit.
Vader wins.
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Yes, which helped him exactly squat when a neophyte farmboy overpowered his guard. He may have brute force - but greatly lacks agility and finesse.
I'd take skill and speed over strength any day of the week.
Is that why he couldn't break old Ben Kenobi's defenses despite holding all the cards in his favor, such as: keeping up with his saber skills, whereas Ben didn't, knowing all of Ben's moves, but the same is not true for Kenobi since Vader changed his form, and having that "insane physical strength". Anakin was capable of downing Count Dooku in a few brief moments when they started fighting one-on-one. The idea that Vader was anywhere remotely near his former self is not supported by the highest form of canon nor anything else, Glentract.
Indeed, it's stated on the official site's Q&A under Ep. VI Lore (the section "How could Luke beat Vader?") that "the injuries he sustained on Mustafar severely hampered his lightsaber prowess", noting that the "skill and power Anakin demonstrates as a young man is much greater".
Passive use of the Force is allowed. Even if it wasn't, I don't see how what you're saying makes any sense. Vader would be slower than a sloth on the ground. Anakin is much quicker, more talented with a blade, and physically, he isn't a pushover either.
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Oh wait, you mean when Vader was faking their fight and flimsly holding on to his saber with one hand while Luke hacked away with his entire body?
Yeah it's not like Vader outmaneuvered half a dozen Jedi at once or anything. Or was able to kill to the Dark Woman still. Or strike down Echuu. I mean, yeah, he totally lost his skill and speed....oh wait, no he didn't.
They fought for like a minute. And they were talking, not just bend on killing each other. Vader also still used Djem So, just adapted it slightly to better fit his suit.
Anakin overpowered an 83 year old man!!! Awesome. And btw, the opposite is not supported. In POTENTIAL, Anakin was far greater. Nothing is said about actual ability.
I'm not sure where websites fit into canon, but Luke admitted in a C-canon source (a book) that he was able to defeat Vader because Vader wasn't trying to kill Luke.
Wrong. If Vader was so slow, he wouldn't have been able to kill half a dozen Jedi in the fight on Kashyyyk.
Your so cool.
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Glentract, if you are talking about RODV, then Vader did kill a half Dozen Jedi, but was busy being beaten by the one master he faced.
He used the force to destroy the Master (i can't remember his name at the moment) , by destroying a bridge and crushing the man with it.
.
He also used the force to defeat Luke on Bespin after Luke actually did hit him with his saber.
I see Vader as being a force beast but not as good as ROTS anakin with sabers. Most of my reasoning comes from RODV, (your source) where Vader goes into detail about how much his movement, balance, and agility are hindered by the suit.
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Well I'd argue that if absolutely no usage of the force(even passively), vader being slower than a sloth would be an understatement... he wouldn't be able to walk at all.
And @glentract.
I honestly doubt vader would beat his former self in a pure saber duel. I mean before the suit he was quicker, faster and when he was actually in a crystal clear state of mind did tool dooku under a minute in a saber match.
A force fight is a different story, but this thread is about a strict saber duel.
Last edited by BoratBorat on Aug 30th, 2009 at 12:43 AM
Wait, are we talking about the same fight? Clearly, we aren't. The scene you're describing sounds like what happened in the Bespin duel during ESB. Since I know that's not really what you were trying to say, the only thing I could tell you is to lay down some proof.
Vader was hardly holding back in ROTJ, Glentract! According to the novelization of the movie itself, which is official G-Canon material:
"'[Luke] was strong - if it came, at last, to blows, yes, he would destroy Luke. He could no longer afford to hold back, as he once had." . . .
. . .You are unwise to lower your defenses,' Vader warned. His anger was layered, now - he did not want to win if the boy was not battling to the fullest. But if winning meant he had to kill a boy who wouldn't fight... then he could do that, too . . .
. . .This accusation really made Vader angry. He could tolerate much from the insolent child, but this was insufferable. He must teach this boy a lesson he would never forget, or die learning."
In the end, it does come to blows and Vader is left with his ass on the ground. The moment of berserker rage that Luke undergoes is described as forcing Vader back and having the advantage:
"He rushed to his father with a frenzy he'd never known ... The gladiators battled fiercely, sparks flying from the clash of their radiant weapons, but it was soon evident that the advantage was all Luke's. And he was pressing it. . . .
Blow upon blow, Luke forced Vader to retreat - back, onto the bridge that crossed the vast, seemingly bottomless shaft to the power core. Each stroke of Luke's saber pummeled Vader, like accusations, like screams, like shards of hate.
The Dark Lord was driven to his knees. He raised his blade to block yet another onslaught - and Luke slashed Vader's right hand off at the wrist."
This was the end. He was outmaneuvered by Luke and genuinely overpowered despite trying desperately to fight back. The RotJ script confirms as much and corroborates with both the novel and the actual movie, where we see this happen:
"Luke ignites his lightsaber and screams in anger, rushing at his father with a frenzy we have not seen before. Sparks fly as Luke and Vader fight in the cramped area. Luke's hatred forces Vader to retreat out of the low area and across a bridge overlooking a vast elevator shaft. Each stroke of Luke's sword drives his father further toward defeat.
The Dark Lord is knocked to his knees, and as he raises his sword to block another onslaught, Luke slashes Vader's right hand off at the wrist".
Where's your evidence that Vader was holding back besides some obscure, unnamed "C-canon" book that you haven't even provided for us? Which brings up the point, even if he was holding back, he wasn't trying to get killed. But against a sloppy assault like this:
Vader couldn't even withstand it. Luke shows absolutely no talent - refined or natural - here.
Can we toss some context into those statements? From what we know, the average Jedi isn't even that skilled. As we see, two hundred were slain during Geonosis, even Jedi masters on the Council fell effortlessly like Coleman Trebor. Put in the words of BioWare for their upcoming MMORPG, the Jedi aren't as fabulous as they are in movies. Yes, they have abilities, but the majority are hardly anywhere near as extraordinary as the minority of people from the movies who are powerhouses. Vader is definitely a head above the average Jedi, but to suggest he is anywhere near on par with people like his RotS incarnation, capable of stomping Count Dooku in under twenty seconds and taking down Cin Drallig in a "few brief lightsaber exchanges".
Vader couldn't beat old Ben Kenobi until he voluntarily gave up; it was a stalemate. Compare this to his former self, who did happen to be more skilled than Kenobi in his prime.
Going back to those feat wars, how can anything there suggest that Vader is on par or, as you claimed possible, even better? Is the Dark Woman anywhere near as good as Anakin? Are these Echuu? I'll save you the time of answering with a: "No".
Unfortunately, the greenhorn farmer who fights like he's using a wiffleball bat, is good enough to put Vader on his ass. Next you are going to tell me that old, out-of-practice-for-two-decades Obi-Wan is better than RotS Obi-Wan, which would be his prime.
Mixed with multiple other elements of forms, such as Makashi. It's been called "unpredictable" in the RoDV novel. But that's besides the fact, that fought to kill each other - this much is apparent. If "talking" disproves the idea that they "weren't bent on killing each other", then Anakin wasn't try to kill Obi-Wan or Dooku in RotS. Sidious wasn't trying to kill Mace or Yoda and vica versa.
"Physically, the Count's age was rarely a handicap. Deft as he had become with the Force-unimaginably more subtle than the boy who had watched water-skeeters in the Jedi gardens all those years ago-he wore his eighty-three standard years better than most humans half his age. He was still in superb physical shape, senses keen, health undiminished by even the memory of a cold." (Yoda: Dark Rendezvous).
If you dare to click this thread, you will find more than ample proof of just how talented Count Dooku is courtesy of myself. When you attempt to downplay someone, make sure that it can't be easily smacked down. Point-in-case here. Dooku's status is truly legendary and he has shown himself capable of holding his own with the greatest, as well as effortlessly owning them (Sora Bulq, for example).
The opposite of what, Glentract? No one even said anything about potential. If you're trying to reference ""The injures [Anakin] sustained on Mustafar severely hampered his lightsaber prowess", then I'll explain:
severely, adj.
harsh; unnecessarily extreme
hampered, adj.
to hold back; hinder; impede
prowess, n.
exceptional or superior ability, skill, or strength
His saber prowess.
You aren't sure where the official website of Star Wars fits into canon? Come on. Explanations that were under the "Questions & Answers" section entitled "How could Luke beat Vader?", translated literally to: why Vader couldn't beat a complete neophyte. It is simply telling us that Vader simply was not as good as he used to be.
"'Gospel,' or canon as we refer to it, includes the screenplays, the films, the radio dramas and the novelizations. These works spin out of George Lucas' original stories, the rest are written by other writers. "
^ See above. I'd also like the quote and your reasoning as to how it trumps the G-canon that support the complete opposite of what you've been spouting.
This doesn't even make sense in response to what you said and how I replied. Remember?
We're talking about without the Force, or are you going to suggest that Vader didn't use the Force to amplify himself during that fight on Kashyyyk...?
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Last edited by Advent on Aug 30th, 2009 at 02:22 AM
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If vader was truly going all out against luke then why didn't he unleash his beastly command of the force to stop him? Like he did to a far superior duelist and force user like galen marek who was more capable of actually tearing vader apart?
The dark woman was no anakin skywalker, but she was definately above average being able to phase through solid walls and has a command over flaura and fauna.
EDIT.
But i think its possible that vader was holding back when it came to unleashing force attacks but doing his best to defend against (or kill) luke during their saber fight.
Last edited by BoratBorat on Aug 30th, 2009 at 02:28 AM
Vader didn't use the Force, so he wasn't going all-out in the lightsaber duel? As I pointed out, you'd then be saying that Dooku didn't go balls to the wall against Anakin despite sources claiming he "fought for his life", and Sidious held back against Windu in their duel because he didn't use his "beastly command of the Force to stop him".
Neither of which have any bearing on her abilities with a blade though. It would be more accurate to say she was nowhere near Anakin and still gave Vader a very intense fight.
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"The ability to speak does not make you intelligent." - Sagacious Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn.
this is really pathetic as already noted luke had like zero talent or technique here. i have very little experience with swords not as much as id like but i can see several ways for vader to ***** luke in this picture.
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I edited my post before you replied. Here it is
Well dooku was fighting for his life in a saber duel, but i don't think that necessarily meant he was truly going all out(he was on the defensive the vast majority of the time).
Vader, like dooku was on the defensive most of the time but i do agree that it was an all out battle when it came to sabers.
Shes no where near anakin when it comes to sabers yes i agree.
But i was pointing out her force prowess rather than her capabilities to fight with a lightsaber, i am sorry if i didn't point that out.
If you notice i never once(this year onwards) argue that vader would ever beat anakin in a pure saber duel.
She did give vader an intense fight, but there is nothing to suggest vader was truly going all out in the force against her or he would have destroyed her pretty easily(the TFU novel and games heavily substantiate this).
Last edited by BoratBorat on Aug 30th, 2009 at 02:37 AM
these raise a lot of questions though. why didnt these people use their beastly commands of the force when they were fighting for their lives? it could be argued that they were simply fighting so hard to keep from getting sliced in half that they couldnt concentrate but how hard would it be for someone to use a burst of force aided speed to gain distance from someone and then just go hail-mary with the force?
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Well in the final round of the ROTJ duel, it could be argued that luke just kept swinging his lightsaber going apeshit with it and vader had to keep his guard because any attempt to call out with the force to his aid would momentarily leave him vulnerable and open to a fatal strike.
I had doubts vader truly went all out in that fight, he may had been all out when it came to sabers but if he truly wanted to crush luke that easily he could very well have(so many opportunities to do so, like crashing the platform luke was hiding under or reaching out with the force and crushing him with it when luke was on the catwalk).
Aug 29th, 2009 01:14 AM
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