See, thats where i see things differently. I DO think vader couldve beaten dooku as of OT. He's only gotten better since ROTS. Maybe not with sabers, but with sheer experience and VASTLY more powerful in the force. So i think he might b able to edge it out against dooku.
And i'd also have to disagree with u with OT vader being ruled by his emotions. He's not a punk 22 year old kid anymore. He's had 20 + years to grow into a seasoned lord of the sith who doesn't let his emotions get the best of him in the same ways that Anakin did.
In your opinion, who do u think in teh zone anakin is comparable to in terms of power?
As of right now, I dont have a formed opinion on this bout.
Last edited by Mr. Anderson014 on Jul 23rd, 2010 at 03:47 AM
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Then for a single mistake why would he execute a subordinate?
Also, he is more than likely still pissed about Padme dying.....
Idk who he is comaprable to in teh zone i just know this: He tooled a 70+ year old Jedi Master turned Sith Lord, who was one of the best duelists of his time, third only to Mace and Yoda.
In the force, yes, OT Vader is FAR more powerful. In sabers, a bit but only because he customized his style to be used in his suit, giving him unpredictability.
Hes in his 40s, sure, but Palpatine is the one in control, because he controls all his emotions, he could do whatever the f*ck the wanted.
Vader was also kind of insane, imho. He would try 1 tactic til it worked, no matter the cost.
So how can "zone" anakin win if you just said OT vader is FAR more powerful in the force and slightly better with sabers? Seems contradictory. Who are you siding with?
In a Force contest: Vader. Anakin may be of utter clarity-of-mind, but that doesn't mean his knowledge of, or power in the Force increased. At least not enough to combat Vader.
Sabers, though: Anakin, for sure.
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I was watching the ESB commentary the other day and Lucas said the following about Vader:
"...now he's half machine and half man, so he has lost a lot of the power of the force and he has lost a lot of visibility to be more powerful than the emperor..."
So yeah, while I agree his knowledge and control increased he apparently doesn't possess the sheer power of his former self anymore.
Therefore I just don't see Vader beating "in teh zone" Anakin in anything.
While GL did say that, in many novels he has shown far greater feats in the force then Anakin ever did. This leads me to believe Vader merely lost his potential in the force, and not loose what he's already had. Again, i see contradiction between EU and GL's word...
I do believe that Vader could beat Anakin the way he usually is. As powerful as skywalker maybe, he lacks the experience and mental discipline that the older jedi master's have (kenobi, windu, yoda).
However in his "in teh zone" form, this weakness is no longer a factor in whomever he faces....which still leads me to no conclusive winner.
"in teh zone!!!!!" Anakin pwned Dooku in a matter of seconds, putting this version of Anakin arguably above Yoda in terms of lightsaber combat. Vader got pwned by an enraged ROTJ Luke and almost lost to a cloned Maul.
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VERY arguably... first time he fought dooku on geonosis, dooku made a distraction as a last ditch effort when IMO yoda was REALLY gonna start fighting. And the 2nd time on Vjun, when dooku was even empowered by the planets darkside engery, he still admits that yoda overpowered him.
After reading DR, its very clear that Yoda wants dooku to turn back SO badly. He obviously loves him, and it would break his heart to strike him down. So i think he was holding back both times when fighting dooku and could've easily beat him the way "in teh zone" anakin did if he wanted to.
And vader lost to luke in ROTJ because he really didn't even want to fight Luke in the first place, hence his "inner conflict". I believe Luke even states that vader could've beat him if he wanted to in a certain novel, but i personally haven't read it. Can anyone help me with the exact quote? And is vader's encounter with maul considered cannon? Not saying ur wrong, i've just heard mixed things about it.
Last edited by Mr. Anderson014 on Jul 23rd, 2010 at 05:10 PM
Vader's potential may have lessened, but his overall knowledge of, and skill with, the force was still far beyond what it was during RotS. Remember, unrealized potential is all but meaningless. Realized potential is where it's at.
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Last edited by Galan007 on Jul 23rd, 2010 at 05:50 PM
But again, the quote say he lost a lot of force power (power, not potential) right there when he became half machine. This means that Vader's Force powers are FAR weaker than the ones Anakin had already displayed at some point before (in all likelihood during his ITZ state).
Remember, this is ITZ Anakin, the version that makes great use of his potential, so in this case his way superior potential will come in handy. Against all other incarnations of Anakin you would have a point, but not here.
When ROTJ Luke tapped into his potential there was nothing Vader could do to stop him. In the case of ITZ Anakin it would be either about the same or even a stomp on a grand scale.
Unless you know of a specific instance where Anakin demonstrated force powers (the external type) superior to those displayed by Vader, then my previous statement still stands.
a.) Luke was swinging his lightsaber around like Stevie Wonder during batting practice. It was a pathetic display, really.
b.) Vader didn't want to harm his own child.
c.) Lucas more or less stated that Luke became what Anakin was intended to be. ie. they both had the same potential.
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I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives."
What statement? That he displayed more offensive powers with the force? I've never denied that, but it will mean nothing in view of Anakin's way superior force powers.
a.) Anakin didn't really show a fine technique either; it was a display of superior Force powers where Dooku (or in Luke case Vader) simply couldn't defend against the ferocious strikes anymore.
b.) It was yet again like the Anakin vs. Dooku battle: At first he held back, but then he fought for his life.
c.) Source please; "Luke became what Anakin was intended to be" seems a little vague to me. It could mean that he became the greatest Jedi ever or so; it's not necessarily a direct relation between Anakin's and Luke's battle prowess.
And even if it IS referring to his potential then Vader still gets stomped like against Luke, so I don't see your point here.
I suppose that's where my perfect vision of the saga and suspension of disbelief comes in. I really don't think that Skywalker wielded his lightsaber like a psychotic baseball player, that Obi-Wan and Vader were slow thugs swinging glowing sticks.
Jul 23rd, 2010 01:44 AM
