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This seems counterintuitive. Opress barely acknowledged their existence, so concerned was he with fulfilling Dooku's objective. His focus the entire time was on Katuunko and he still manhandled both of them.
I wouldn't call that a solid victory. After all, they were able to dogpile him at one point. Had they attacked with sabers instead of attempted DDTs, I'm sure he'd be dead. Also, when he fought them in the hallways he was driving them back, but he could not penetrate their defenses without rawr!Force bursts.
I am not familiar with the context of this clip, but this video you provided demonstrated Kenobi and Anakin as having the intention to capture Opress, it seems, rather than slaying him.
Nothing shows that he would even beat Obi-Wan in combat. Even at 3:11, that 'berserk' Force Push barely affected Kenobi.
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The duel begins with Opress dueling two vastly more experienced warriors while simultaneously hauling and restraining a captive. During the dogpile, Opress is more concerned with preventing Katuunko from escaping. After he hurls them aside and drops the platform on them, he flees with Katuunko, so concerned is he in fulfilling Dooku's objective.
Given what he'd just endured during the fight with Dooku and Ventress, I'm not surprised.
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Likewise, Opress's intentions were equally compromised. Anakin and Obi-Wan differ in one regard: Opress was their objective; to Opress, they were merely an obstacle to be removed (not necessarily terminated). Despite their greater numbers, experience, and the considerable advantage of not simultaneously restraining a prized captive, they were beaten and left for dead.
You mean like the fact that he overcame both Kenobi and Anakin together?
The fact that he didn't permanently damage them is an indicator of... what, exactly? It's already been established that he was more concerned with getting away than killing them.
Right, this proves his dedication, even if he royally screwed the pooch by killing his captive. But it evades the issue - that Obi-Wan and Anakin, though given a clear opportunity to kill him, deliberately did not. His lucky evasion/gave 'em the slip routine does not speak to his martial prowess so much as it proves he was fortunate against two opponents who didn't want to kill him.
Which is irrelevant for this debate.
Oppress was basically raging at this point, so it's debatable if he was "worn down" or damaged from the repeated lightning. I personally think his open style and his large frame and saber prevented him from flanking or tearing apart the Jedi in the confined hallway. But the point remains - he did not simply walk all over them. When sabers crossed, he was held at bay.
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If I'm not mistaken (and please correct me if I am), you're attempting to assert that because Obi-Wan and Anakin didn't exploit an opportunity to kill Opress that it undermines my assertion that Opress manhandled them. What I am doing is establishing a parallel; Opress didn't press the advantage when he undeniably had it, because he was too concerned with restraining Katuunko. When Katuunko was dealt with, Opress shrugged both Jedi off and disabled them casually. He could have dealt with them then, but chose to complete his objective as ordered by the Count.
When sabers crossed after being repeatedly electrocuted by Count Dooku (remember what it did to Anakin?), Opress was held at bay in a confining corridor only to eventually overcome the Jedi and Dooku's droid contingent with the Force. I'm not seeing your argument here.
The second Oppress tried to throw his hostage aside to engage, he was hit by both Jedi and had they struck lethally, he'd be dead. But they weren't trying to kill him. So he's pinned. He TK's his hostage dead, and then rawr throws them back before dropping a pod on them for good measure.
Nowhere did he render them open to death or defeat by saber mastery, or creative use of Force that isn't as basic as a push that won't aid him in a Jedi Library arena. To further that point, he was battling the Jedi while hovering high off of the ground on floating pods; clearly, any TK attempts would be far more impacting than on a level playing field.
So if you are using this fight as proof of Oppress > Obi/Annie, what instances are valid? I don't see any.
The Jedi gave ground before the forward-moving Oppress. It's probably obvious that the Zabrak is physically stronger than them, since he's nearly twice their size around, but the point is, he's not wrecking their day, nor is he "soloing". He's driving them back with an aggressive, rage-fueled and they're adequately defending without apparent danger or serious effort.
Had they not backed into an open room filled with droids, then we could have better examined how he stacked up. The limitation of room would have been lifted and he could have gone all out.
Or, they could have flanked him and destroyed him. The point is we don't know, and none of the above showings are conclusive.
Lastly, you could argue that Oppress was "weakened" from Dooku's lightning, but this still ignores the fact that you can't argue a "normal" Oppress versus Anakin/Obi on neutral ground.
And this isn't even taking into account Kit Fisto, who was according to The Cestus Deception, a better swordsman than Obi-Wan and more aggressive/random.
1. The duo were not engaging Opress anywhere near the level to which they fought Dooku in ROTS. It's evident that when they decided to wrestle the Zabrak (as opposed to finishing him off) that they had no intention of killing him and didn't have much idea on the person they were holding down.
2. Because they weren't intending on killing him, you can't assume that Opress will suddenly kill them in a legitimate fight since he too didn't want to fight them.
Major asterisk there.
Very well, no point pursuing this one since you're more or less saying that his Force powers aren't at full strength because he was fleeing.
I was pointing out how his attempts to incapacitate/overpower them with offensive TK barely barely affected the duo.
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At the 2:35 mark, Katuunko regains consciousness and begins to attack Opress; at the 2:37 mark, he manages to slip out of Opress's grasp, and it as it this point that the Jedi attempt their dogpile.The only single instance in which Kenobi and Anakin had the upper hand was the direct result of a distraction generated by a third party, which, unlike Opress's telekinetic powers, will not occur in the duel proposed by this thread.
Furthermore, I accept that the Jedi weren't seeking to kill Opress, but I will reiterate that Opress wasn't exactly seeking to kill them as well in as much as he only applied as much force as was necessary to get them out of his way. When Katuunko was killed and he brought his full focus to bear, Obi-Wan and Anakin were summarily and casually tossed aside and overpowered via Opress's own powers and ingenuity, something that the two Jedi cannot claim for themselves.
While that may be, Opress demonstrates impressive telekinetic powers during his training with Count Dooku and his escape from Toydaria after besting Anakin and Obi-Wan. Even on level ground, telekinesis can be devastating and under certain circumstances decisive, unless there is no object with which to bludgeon the Jedi (including walls).
I don't see the valid reasoning behind discrediting Opress's manipulation of the environment. Anakin attempted to use the Force to hurl a platform at Opress with the intent to subdue him, which failed. Many duels in the films and EU depict combatants make use of the environment and if Opress's clever use of the hover platform somehow doesn't indicate superiority despite the odds and disadvantages he endured, then that requires a reexamination of many duels and fights throughout canon.
Without apparent danger or serious effort? By what standard? They're wielding weapons that casually removes limbs, what isn't dangerous about that?
And yet again I must reiterate that Opress managed to overwhelm the Jedi and the droids via the Force on a level playing field.
Are you arguing that Opress was still operating under the effects of battle rage during the second duel with Obi-Wan and Anakin? Regardless, a 'normal' Opress was able to dominate both opponents despite enormous disadvantages on Toydaria.
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I never claimed as much.
As I pointed out here to Janus, the duo's single moment of advantage was the direct result of an occurrence manufactured by an outside party (Katuunko, in his bid for freedom). There's no indication that they would have even been in a dominant position had it not been for his efforts; in fact, all evidence (Opress's subsequent and casual escape from the dogpile) indicates otherwise.
Perhaps not suddenly, but what we have here is three combatants who ultimately did not want to slay the other. The problem is that despite this seemingly shared state of mind, Kenobi and Anakin were completely focused on subduing Opress; Opress had other things on the mind. He treated them fairly negligibly and still emerged victorious. Twice.
Despite yours and Janus's assurances to the contrary, I'm not seeing much evidence for their formidable performance against Opress beyond a momentary position of advantage that was born from a complete fluke (Katuunko): A fluke that won't be present here.
I'm not sure where I argued that at all.
And what exactly did they do to him that had any effect at all? Because as I see it "barely" is better than nothing.
Yet was nonetheless outmatched by Ventress, as was Obi-Wan.
And aggression is the trademark of Anakin, with whom Obi-Wan has the added advantage of practiced coordination, but even together they never seemed to gain much advantage over Opress. I doubt Kit Fisto would do better.
I'm not committed to the idea that Opress could kill these two himself, but as per the thread he doesn't need to. Ventress is at least the equal of either Jedi at this point, and Opress is a dominant enough force to firmly tip the odds.
Last edited by Eminence on Sep 10th, 2011 at 06:55 AM
Sep 10th, 2011 04:47 AM
